September 14, 2003, 04:16 PM
I know most the interest here is about HD and Practical shotguns .. but maybe you all can give me some info.
I just purchased a 16g, double barrel game gun with extractors, case colored, good wood, a little rough to touch but it will wear in. It is from Simson Shul a pre war German gun manufacturer famous then and now for their lugers. This is their field grade gun I am sure.
Is anyone familiar with these ??? Any ideas of where I can go to get some more info?
September 14, 2003, 04:34 PM
This is what I could find on the Simson
September 14, 2003, 04:36 PM
September 16, 2003, 01:12 AM
Simson of Suhl, Germany. Excellent continental styled gun which got rough during and after war , under commie rule. HOWEVER they always remained a sound and very nice piece. I had a 16X16X8mm drilling produced by them and it was prewar and VERY well finished, I only sold it because it was the obsolete J bore and I didn't want to fool around with that caliber.:)
September 16, 2003, 10:08 AM
I found your info helpful. Any idea of where I can find date of manufacture, is there a simson expert in US?
September 30, 2003, 05:03 PM
Just so you all might want to know ... I have gathered some information I have received from some other boards.
The Simson name as late at the 1990's was still being used in Germany. I was stationed there from 1997-1999 and saw lots of these Simson's around. Dependent on the date, the model 35/70E Simson was a clone of the Merkel model 47E and was made in the same factory. The model 74E was identical to the Merkel model 147E, and the model 76E was identical to the Model 122E.
The price of used Simson's are usually quite a bit less than the Merkels due mostly to name recognition. Merkels were always considered the Cadillac while the Simson's were the Chevy's.
Some of the marking on the water plate etc ...
Lock: on left bottom of lock is the serial number 143###, two overlapping triangles with a W underneath, a line of 5 symbols that I can barely see. On right bottom of lock there appears to be an upside down pineapple, a crown with a U underneath, three triangle with an S in the middle made to look like mountains (I am assuming this is the Simson trademark) and a Shield with indecipherable marking in it.
Butt Plate: Has the thre traingle representing mountains with the S in it. Simson trademark.
Barrel Plate: The plate that holds the barrels together has the same markings for each side. First is a "16/70" marking, a crown with a W, a symbol I have no idea what it is, a crown with a O, a square crown with a N, NITRO and a Coat of Arms with a Pick and a shield it looks like on the field.
Barrel: Is marked on bead with Simson & Co. Shul Germany. Each barrel is marked with Spezial Geviehrhaufstahl.
Here is a little information. The pineapple is probably the Eagle stamp for provisional proof of barrels. Crown over U is the definitive proof mark. Crown/W means proofed with choked barrels. 16/70 means gun uses 16ga shells 70mm long (2 3/4"). Crown/N and Nitro means proofed for use with Smokeless powder. You are probably not reading Crown / O correctly - as such a stamp has no proof meaning. Since you did not list Crown/S (for smoothbore) I would suspect that instead of Crown/O. The pick and shield are symbol for Suhl (not Schul) and was used to indicate Suhl proof house or made in Suhl.
You need to examine the other marks carefully with a good lense and see if they can be more clearly described. Many marks are trademen's identifiers and are not easily deciphered. You are also missing typical 3 or 4 digit number for date as noted in post above. I think you have a prewar Simson, probably made in the 30s and it should be a reasonably good gun.
On the water table are three number "851" leading me to believe this gun was built, Aug 1951. From Geno's tip, that would match with the 143### serial number. What threw me is that there are no markings for GDR or an East German insignia.
I can not decipher the trade markings more as te mix with the case coloring to much. I am going to try to find a stronger eye piece for a better examination.
Now, the really good part. I patterned this gun last night at 25 yds with a series of different shells. A quick description of highlights and lowlights.
RTS 2.5 inch #7.5 1oz - recomended by the smith that examined the gun. Lousy poi off to right and high out of right barrel. Left barrel was fine. Shot six shells in each barrel. Same results. I am glad I patterned this shell because I would have missed all shots with riht barrel. This was first shell I tested and I was signifgantly worried.
Fed Hi Brass #7.5 - 1 1/8oz - Another disappointing load. To tight out of left barrel, to spread out of right. Good news though was the POI was directly above POA.
Fiochi GT8 #8 1oz - Best load. Perfect spread and POI out of both barrel
Fiochi Field 7.5 1oz - Great Load, also great spread and poi.
Remington Field, Win x-super Fed Field - All very good loads with this gun. Would not question pattern at all with these. The rem field did seem to have a longer cone, but that it to be expected.
All in all, my commie knockoff of a continental double loves cheap shells. What a suprise.
The East German state gun works chose to hide their gun's place of manufacturing as much as possible. They copied the proof marks of pre-war Germany, and did not mark guns with East German stampings. This does not mean that the guns were of poor quality, but guns are hardly ever as good following a major war as before. They was also a very high American customs on Iron Curtin country products. O think it was about 67%. Simpson quality varied tremendously. I saw a rather lowish quality 1939 gun once.
THIS REPLY IS THE BEST ... IT IS FROM THE WTS WAFFENTECHNIK IN SUHL, GmbH, THE GUILD FOR HANDMADE GUNBUILDERS IN THE SUHL, GERMANY REGION.
We think you are right, your gun was made in august 1951.
We also think that J.rebualt was the former owner of the gun or the trader.
The simson family has been expropriated in the years 1933-1945 ("Hitler-time" of Germany) because there were jews. BSW -Berliner Suhler Waffenwerke - became the owner of this.
The heirs of the Simson family are living in the U.S.A now.
After World war II the most of great gunmakers ( factory owners) left East germany because they have made also arms for world war II and they have to fear reprisals from the Russian. They all were expropriated from the Russian ( BSW , the former Simson factory too). The GDR-state (East Germany) became the owner of these factories after his formation. The name of Factory was "SIMSON" again, but the Simson family was not the owner. Your gun has been produced in SIMSON factory.
The expropriated factories and some small gunmakers too were concentrated and united to the VEB Jagd-und Sportwaffenwerk" Ernst Thälmann" Suhl in 1969 - a large firm. They produced guns and rifles until 1990 under the brands "Merkel", "Simson", "TW Suhl","Haenel". (more then 1000 employees)
After the unification of Germany in 1990, the large factory has been reprivatized . In Suhl now a lot of small gunmaker enterprises (we are one of them) and one greater one. This is the Suhler Jagd-und Sportwaffen GmbH - now sold to Heckler & Koch (140 employees).But they don't produced now any guns under the brand SIMSON (only merkel and TW Suhl). They have some old production books, may be they can help you with more information. You can contact them under:
But about the value nobody can give you an information without have a look at the gun. It would be better to contact an estimator for weapons in you country.
so there you go .... sounds like it will be a good hunting gun for years to come, in my opinion.
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