Lee REAL in a 1858?


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rjsixgun
October 25, 2008, 11:56 AM
Has anyone tried the Lee R.E.A.L. 200 grainer in there Remington 1858? I've been thinking about ordering one. Might make a nice wad-cutter.

I have tried the Lee 452-160-RF .45 ACP mold with great results, but I am looking for something something a little more weight and bearing surface.

Yes I already tried the Lee Conicals for Black powder pistols, all have very poor results when compaired to the Round ball and .45 Acp bullets.

I'm thinking that because of the design of the REAL, it might be easy to load into the cylender straighter than a regular conical. All my cylenders are opened up and flared to help "funnel" the load. And because the REAL is kinda tappered like a cone it just might work.....

So has anyone tried this? I'd love to know your results.

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BHP FAN
October 25, 2008, 03:28 PM
Why do folks DO that to cap 'n' ball revolvers?They're SUPPOSED to cut washers...that's how you know you're getting a good seal.I've always been mystified why people do that.I've owned quite a few over the years,includeing one original,and never felt the need to ream out cylinders and chamber mouths...forceing cones,yes...but if you're useing pure lead [and you should be] and the proper load,it's going to ''bump up'' to bore size any how,so why do it?

Voodoochile
October 25, 2008, 03:37 PM
BHP FAN:
You are right to a point in that when a firearm is shot using pure lead Bullets the lead will obtruce {sp} to the bore to some extent but like in one of my Remington copies the chambers were that much smaller to where it still wouldn't get complete grove sealing before some of the gases from the explosion could go around the bullet causing some accuracy issues.

If the chambers of a revolver are of the grove size or slightly larger by .003 the bullet will take all of the rifling in the bore & not have the exploding gases help steer the bullet as it exits the bore, remember that even thought the pure lead ball is of a soft material it will only do so much unlike a Mini Ball where the base is hollow by design for that very situation..

BHP FAN
October 25, 2008, 03:53 PM
In answer to your question,yes you can,I did it back when the Ruger Old Army first came out.Expect the same results as you'd get with ''as cast'' unsized .452 .45 acp bullets and Lee conicals you've already tried.I can't honestly tell you why,but in nearly forty years of playing around with black powder revolvers, round ball seems to give the best accuracy.My THEORY is that the oblong of a conical or ''modern '' design of bullet tends to pitch,and yaw,and is more prone to being pushed around [at lower,black powder speeds and pressures] by the very same bearing surfaces that tend to stabalize modern bullets with modern propellents.But it's only a theory.What I DO know,from doing the same kinda things youre doing right now is that round ball and black powder work best.Triple seven is something that needs some looking into,and I've been getting some amazing accuracy in my .45-70,but at handgun distances?Well,check out the Triple Seven,it's worth looking into...

BHP FAN
October 25, 2008, 04:04 PM
Voodochile....in theory,you're correct,and with smokeless at smokeless velocitys you'd be correct as well,and probably it's even true of black powder rifles [like with the minie ball you mentioned],but as a practical fact,with a 6'' to 8'' barrel,and a target at,maybe 25 yards,it just don't matter that much.I've heard that in muzzle loading target championships they use progressive rifleing AND tapered barrels,[ I don't run in them circles], but Dixie carries the modified revolver if you're interested.

BHP FAN
October 25, 2008, 04:18 PM
Voodoochile
''If the chambers of a revolver are of the grove size or slightly larger by .003 the bullet will take all of the rifling in the bore & not have the exploding gases help steer the bullet as it exits the bore, remember that even thought the pure lead ball is of a soft material it will only do so much unlike a Mini Ball where the base is hollow by design for that very situation..''

So,why does a .452 cowboy cartridge's bullet work in my Uberti 1875 Remington? Or,for that matter,the SAME bullet,through a converted 1858?

Voodoochile
October 25, 2008, 04:52 PM
So,why does a .452 cowboy cartridge's bullet work in my Uberti 1875 Remington? Or,for that matter,the SAME bullet,through a converted 1858?
Today 04:04 PM


Because the Grove Diameter of your Uberti 1875 copy & your converted 1858 is close to if not possibly slightly less than that of the chamber diameter of these pieces.

All I know is that since I've reamed the chambers on the 3 cylinders to my revolver to be that of .4510 when the grove diameter in the barrel is .4495 it has improved its grouping at 20 yards drematicaly & that is even with cast or store bought .457 ball.

rjsixgun
October 25, 2008, 05:05 PM
Well this took a major turn from my original question, but what the heck.
The reason for reaming and flare'n chambers is an easy one to answer.
1 On repro revolvers, some of the chambers are smaller than the barrel and not all chambers are reamed to the same size, so by reaming them you have uniform chamber size in all chambers.
2 a slight flare on the chamer mouth does 2 things. It helps loading and keeps mass. When you cut that little lead ring off a round ball your makeing the ball lighter, if you flare your chamber your basically swedging the ball and not loosing any mass. And you still get an air tight seal.

Now for choacked barrels in pistols, well I just dont know, but all my Muskets have them and yes they work! All my muskets have custom made barrels by a man named Dan Whitacre, nothing shoots like his barrels.

BHP FAN, the only conical so far that I have found to out shoot a round ball in any of my BP pistols in that little Lee .45 Acp, But now I'm looking at the Lee REAL, hopeing it will shoot just as good if not better. I'm looking for more mass.

I have been shooting Comp Black Powder and with the N-SSA for over 15 years. So tricking out a 1858 Repro Remington is nothing new and it does have bennifits.

BHP FAN
October 25, 2008, 07:18 PM
RJ,I didn't mean to hijack your thread,but I've been reading a lot on here about what seem to me to be largely unnessesary mods to already working revolvers and I was wondering why.With all due respect to Voodoochile's fifteen years of experience with blackpowder,[I've got closer to forty years of it] I just don't see the need.Back when I started up with blackpowder in the early seventies the guns were a LOT rougher and out of spec than they are now,and some required 'smithing just to work.Some I'm convinced were never meant to work at all.I've got a seventies vintage engraved '58 .36 Remmie that fits that description,though with a lot of work,I got it going ok.so yeah,I've a little work on the '58's over the years.I've always been sceptical of the benifits of reaming and chamfering of the cylinder chambers,as when you swage the ball,you're mishapeing it,and loseing the intrinic advantage of the round ball over the conical.In my humble [!] experience I've found that the more uniform the round ball is,the more accuracy you have with it.This is why a lot of manuals make a big dealout of putting the sprue up...so it gets mashed back into the ball upon loading.When you swage them into the cylinder,you're creating a kinda oblong lead capsule that's not really condusive to accuracy,though I don't suppose it hurts anything.

rjsixgun
October 25, 2008, 08:59 PM
Nah, dont worry about Hi-jacking, after all we're not on a plane! HA!HA!

Hey now I'm go'na Hijack my own thread, You mentioned about the sprue on a ball. If you take a handfull of round balls and shake them in a soda bottle, you'll peen the sprue into the ball and not deform the ball. Give it a try, its kinda cool.

I have won a number of gold medals with my 1858 Remington (re-pop) its cylenders are reamed for uniformaty, and flared, Dove tailed front sight, opened up the forceing cone, trigger job and a trigger stop. But I compete with mine, I dont suggest that the casual user go threw all that. But in comp were you shoot for score....then yes.

I understand your opinion on swegeing the ball, but your deforming the ball when you cut the ring off and the ball is also swedged by the forceing cone when it's fired. So either way the ball is in a sence "swedged" but I keep the mass or original weight by not cutting the ring. Hey it's just my opinion.

I do respect your opinion as it is perfectly logical.

Voodoochile
October 25, 2008, 09:11 PM
I'm sorry bud as well & I've tried the rolling of my cast balls & it does seem to work well. :D

As far as experience I do have over 30 years in playing with these pieces & stopped shooting N-SSA back in '88 but that is another story.

I have won a number of gold medals with my 1858 Remington (re-pop) its cylenders are reamed for uniformaty, and flared, Dove tailed front sight, opened up the forceing cone, trigger job and a trigger stop. But I compete with mine, I dont suggest that the casual user go threw all that. But in comp were you shoot for score....then yes.

I understand your opinion on swegeing the ball, but your deforming the ball when you cut the ring off and the ball is also swedged by the forceing cone when it's fired. So either way the ball is in a sence "swedged" but I keep the mass or original weight by not cutting the ring. Hey it's just my opinion.


Some of what I've done to my latest Remington copy was in rememberance of those competition times past, & yes you are right in either case the ball does get swedged I just preferr it to be swedged into the rifling as it is fired tis all.

rjsixgun
October 25, 2008, 09:17 PM
Voodoochile, they are still swedged on fireing because you ream them larger than the bore.

Hey if you ever want to come to a N-ssa National, come on down, My team camps on Artillery Row. Why did you get out of it?

Voodoochile
October 25, 2008, 09:29 PM
Got burned out some & ofcorse my first child come about so I had to put my fun to the side.

One day I'll dust off my old Zouave & get back into it. :D

BTW Dixie Artillery Petersburg, Va.

BHP FAN
October 25, 2008, 09:30 PM
I think that dovetailed front sight trick is ssslick.My brother has a Remington front sight dovetailed onto his '51 Navy.I usually open up the rear sight groove anyways for quick sight [as in SASS shooting] acquisition,and just open it up in the direction it needs to go,and file the front for elevation.
Swapped my .58 Enfield Artillery Musketoon for a .58 underhammer heavy barrel Civil War Sniper Hopkin and Allen pattern ,70's repro ,with about a four foot brass scope aboard.

rjsixgun
October 25, 2008, 09:32 PM
1st Pennsylvania Artillery

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
October 25, 2008, 09:43 PM
I have a 1858 also and the dia. of the chambers have been drilled out to the
same size as the groove dia. of the barrel, which on my gun is .357 The front
of the chambers are slightly champered as to swedge the ball and not cut
a ring of lead. I use a .360 ball This is for compention at Friendship
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/0012_filtered.jpg

BHP FAN
October 25, 2008, 10:13 PM
Very handsome.I use .380 store boughts,and .375 home cast in my 36's.In my .44 I use the Hornady .454,or home cast .457 round ball or .457 conical both home cast in Lee molds.

1858rem
October 25, 2008, 11:17 PM
i chamfered the cylinder mouth just large enough to eliminate the ring of lead cause it was gumming up the gun more than i cared for:cool:.... ok so when you load a rb you cut the sides to chamber width and when you fire a rb it squishes up from the bottom cause the front of the bullet starts movin' just a little bit after the back does an by looking at fired rb it looks like you end up firing a conical bullet anyhow you look at it:eek:

BHP FAN
October 25, 2008, 11:41 PM
Good points,not to mention what the forceing cone does to it....

mykeal
October 26, 2008, 07:26 AM
Come on guys. The minuscule amount of deformation caused by the initial pressure pulse in no way results in a conical shaped projectile. Likewise the forcing cone. While the 'round' ball isn't by any means truly spherical it's certainly much, much closer to that shape than it is to a conical or minie ball shape.

1858rem
October 26, 2008, 09:30 AM
btw i tried the 250g REAL in my 1858 just to see, i didnt shoot enough to get any idea of the accuracy... jus bustin' firewood with em lol. i dont anymore cause they are way tough to load into the cylinder(had to take it out every time and use a shortstart.) with pistols and slow twist rifles rb works well cause of weight distribution mostly... minie's work ok since a lot of the weight is up front.. someone just put up a post on them too i think... and rb have a small center of mass also... i suspect the Rifling Engraved At Loading will work no better than the lee 200g conical if not worse solely from the difficulty i had loading them would deform too much for decant consistency. i did order the kirst, maybe i could load that 250gREAL into a colt cartridge?:rolleyes:

rjsixgun
October 26, 2008, 03:21 PM
I was thinking about the 200 gr REAL

Hellgate
October 26, 2008, 03:21 PM
I checked the diameter of the driving bands and managed to find a 44 cal R.E.A.L. mold that works perfectly in my Remingtons. I had determined that the 45 cal would work for the Ruger Old Army but not the Remington '58s due to the smaller chamber diameters. It loads fine and shoots OK. I only use them for knockdowns in CAS matches so I load a heap more roundball than conicals.Unfortunately thay are no longer made in 44 cal. I think I called LEE and they had one laying around that had not been shipped.

rjsixgun
October 27, 2008, 06:40 PM
How did you lube or did you lube the REAL? Or did you use a lubed wad?

Here are some pic's of my 1858's
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c395/RJSIXGUN/Rem1858Pistols.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c395/RJSIXGUN/Rem1858Pistols1.jpg

Voodoochile
October 27, 2008, 07:45 PM
Now I know this isn't related "well almost" but I do use a Lee REAL Bullet for my .50 cal Bobcat "320gr." & I lube mine with 50/50 Beeswax & Crisco, & I do not use a WAD.

Hellgate
October 27, 2008, 10:19 PM
I just smeared my BP lube into the grooves ahead of time and put them into an empty bullet box.

pascalp
November 11, 2008, 07:24 PM
Try to find a Lyman 450229, they were made for what you want.
Wheight was quite conservative, slighty heavier than round ball (near 145gn), wide driving band for acuracy, hollow base to accomodate chamber and bore dimensioning and SWC to cut a cylinder thru the target.

http://pascalp2.free.fr/images/lyman/450229/lyman_450229_P1000405_cut_800.jpg

http://pascalp2.free.fr/images/lyman/450229/lyman_450229_P1000411_cut_480.jpg

http://pascalp2.free.fr/images/lyman/450229/lyman_450229_P1000409_cut_480.jpg

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