[greyhound]

There are very few people in Texas who carry a gun. I doubt one percent of the permit holders actually carry on a regular basis. Most have the gun in their car

Wow, Shooter 2.5, this quote really set me to thinking. Could the percentage really be that low? I live in Md., so I don't know anyone who carries, but my GFs parents live in Alabama, both have CCW licenses, and both leave the gun in the car 24/7.

So maybe it is true. I guess from reading this board I always thought the percentage would be much higher, but then again, the folks here are not usually the "throw it in the glove box and forget about it" type.

Any thoughts/opinions?

[C.R.Sam]

Unless it is a trusted friend....
I don't know and really don't care.
I sorta assume anyone may be armed.
I would like to think the local hoods think the same way.

Sam

[jsalcedo]

Until I found a rig I was able to wear with confidence the gun was often left in the car.

Now that I can carry comfortably in all conditions I never leave home without it.

[sm]

Ditto what Sam said.

I figure anybody, anywhere may be a threat. SA, watch hands, watch six...have a plan , have a b/u plan, wear good shoes with traction...green ledgers help too ;)

[Lone_Gunman]

Of the people I know who have a pistol permit, I am the only one who can be expected to have a gun on them at any given time.

[Skunkabilly]

Mee mee meemememememememe!

:p

[LostOneToo]

If I have pants on, there's a gun in the waistband.;)

[Shooter 2.5]

I'll help you bump this thing to the top but I still think the number is low. And that's in Texas.

The reason I came up with such a low number is, I observed the competitors at the IDPA matches. A total of three out of 25-30 shooters used a concealment garment. I would have expected the people who are really trying to train for the street would take an interest. The truth is, they aren't.

I would love to be wrong on this. Five percent? Ten? Someone please tell me I'm wrong.

[CleverNickname]

A total of three out of 25-30 shooters used a concealment garment.

Did you mean ANY concealment garment, or just something that would be suitable to wear on the street? At my club, everyone is required to wear a concealment garment, but most wear purpose-built competition vests. Only I and one or two other regulars shoot with 'normal' clothes as concealment garments.

[ACP230]

I was at a rifle match this morning and I carried during it.

I carried the rest of the day also.

[Double Naught Spy]

Let's see, as of 1 Aug 2003, Texas had 234,000 CHL holders. One percent would be 2340 individuals.

Shooter 2.5, your assessment of how few of CHL holders that carry on a regular basis and that most carry in their car is flawed. There is no correlation of IDPA to CHL holders and certainly no correlation of the number of CHL holders relevant to the number of folks who use a concealment garments in an IDPA match.

You have to understand that IDPA is a game. Granted, it is a game that was originally designed to challenge shooters as a means of helping hone handgun self defense skills, but many don't use IDPA for that. The reason why so many did not use concealment garments is because they know that the garment will slow the draw and they are not there to do self defense, but to win a game. So they opt not to use the garment.

I don't follow how you got less than 1% of CHL holders carrying on a regular basis to saying that most carry in their cars. Heck, using your numbers of 3 in 25-30 would give you 12-10%. How do you get from that percentage to less than 1% and then that most carry in the car?

I know a lot of people who are licensed and who do carry on a regular basis. Most of these folks have zero interest in competition. On top of that, many pocket carry and so they won't be wearing something like a vest, jacket, or untucked shirt to conceal their carry gun as the carry gun is in their pants pocket.

I have to laugh at the geography represented in this thread by those chiming in as to whether they regularly carry or not or know folks who do or do not. The question was Texan CHL specific, but most of the responders aren't in Texas according to their profiles.

[Standing Wolf]

If I'm past the front door, I'm packing.

[Shooter 2.5]

Any concealable garment. Like I said, most of the ones I talked to that actually use a concealed weapon, leave them in their car.

If my logic is flawed, I would love to see realistic numbers.

My reasoning is based on Texas which is supposed to be a more gun orientated state. What does that say about states like Indiana or Washington who had them since the beginning? If people who get up in the morning and practice dilagently don't carry, who the heck does?

This estimate isn't limited to Texas. I was estimating for the entire group of states that have a valid CCW law.

[feedthehogs]

I betcha more non-permit holders carry guns in Texas.

My best bud was bred in Texas. He counted off 16 members of his family that carried. None had permits.

His reply, its a GOD given Texas right and I don't go to church on Sunday to worship anybody in the legislature.

[V-fib]

I can’t carry at work or even bring a firearm on work property so that’s the only time I don’t carry. I do carry two knives at all times. So, 98% of my time I carry. I’m lucky to live in the country and don’t feel very threatened but I carry anyway. Tomorrow I’m going to the big city of Muskegon :D and I will be packin.

:cool:

[jdege]

I have a permit, and I carry <none of your damned business> of the
time.

:cool:

There are only a handful of people who've ever known when I was carrying,
and that has always been because I chose to reveal while teaching a
carry class.

As for cover garments, I don't use them.

Polo shirts and khakis - standard business casual.

How? I used to use SmartCarry, but I'm trying out something new
that may work better.

[DeputyVaughn]

I did a little research on this a few years back. I found that approximately 10% of Alabamians have permits. About 10% of those actually carry full time. The rest only carry when they think they may need a gun. Another interesting fact was that .01% had their permits revoked by the county sheriff for having been covicted a felony or domestic violence since the permits was issued or renewed.

Scott

[c_yeager]

Of all the people i know that have permits very few of them carry even semi-regularly. Most just strap it on if they are going somewhere "hinkey" or just simply leave it in the car.

[DigMe]

The last time I left it in the car was last Tuesday...because I was voting and it's illegal to carry into a polling place in Texas.

brad cook

[Master Blaster]

1% ER HERE, can you see me? Then I'm packin.

Dont know about everybody else though.

Now if I knew in advance when I will need it......


I'd have already won the lottery.:o

[Preacherman]

If I have pants on, there's a gun in the waistband.
Then, going by the Marines' famous line, that means that every male Texan is always armed, no?

:neener: :p :D

[HankB]

I think the number of licensed CHL holders who frequently carry is well above the 1% level cited . . . certainly well into the double digits. Most people I know carry wherever/whenever its legal. I observed the competitors at the IDPA matches. Note the following - COMPETITORS in MATCHES. MOST folks carry to the match, but it is not unusual to see people swap rigs in the parking lot at local IDPA matches . . . many use what would be termed back up guns, like S&W J-frames, KelTec P32's, etc., and carry in their pocket which is not IDPA approved. Or use a holster which is not on IDPA's list. Or use a standard cap mag when they carry, which violates IDPA rules in some classes. So they swap. (Yeah, yeah, it's not tactically sound, you should train with what you carry, yadda yadda yadda.)

But face it, IDPA is a GAME, and has rules and courses of fire that are decidedly "un-tactical." If it was made realistic, you'd fire an average of 2.5 shots per stage, and not come back to the next match.

[Leatherneck]

Sadly, my employer believes it would be unsafe for me to carry at the Pentagon, so I come to work naked (figuratively, people, figuratively :D ) Everywhere else, can/will/do.

TC
TFL Survivor

[Andrew Rothman]

jdege hinted...
How? I used to use SmartCarry, but I'm trying out something new
that may work better.

Well, don't keep us in suspense... :)

[Deepdiver]

I carry whenever I want to.....sometimes, most-times, lots-a-times, but not necessarily alls-a-times

[cordex]

I'd certainly believe that there are certainly a lot of people who have a permit and rarely carry.

Not sure about the 1% number, though. And I wouldn't put too much stock in the procedure used to come up with that number either. Like it or not, most people go to IDPA/IPSC to play a game, not to train.

But I carry whenever legal and appropriate (legal to carry in the shower, not wise)

[Smoke]

I beleive the number of CHL holders that carry regularlyis low...very low.

I know several that rarely carry. Permit holders are low per capita in TX.

I know more people that carry without a permit. Especially in their vehicle.
If you add in long guns the number explodes.

I'd like to see some real statisics on the issue but don't think that can be done realistically.

[MacPelto]

Well, let's see... of the permit holders that I know (10) 9 of them carry all the time - One doesn't. Of those same people, 3 go to IDPA (or similar)matches with some frequency (maybe 3/4 a year). I won't say how many people I know that carry occasionally, but without a permit, but it far outweighs the 1 permit that doesn't carry all the time.

All that I can draw from this admittedly subjective view is that most of the permit holders that I know ... don't shoot IDPA.

[jdege]

I don't wear a jacket, or a vest, or an unbuttoned shirt over a T, so deep cover is my only option.

I've tried SmartCarry, and it works pretty well. But in it's usual positions, it can be uncomfortable sitting down or walking. (Generally speaking, I can usually find a position that is comfortable enough, sitting, or comfortable enough, walking, but they're not the same positions, and moving the from one to another in public could get me arrested for public lewdness.)

An IWB with untucked shirt would work, if I could wear my shirts untucked, but I can't, really, at the office.

I've tried tuckable IWB, but getting them on is fiddly - I can't get the shirt in where it belongs without undoing my pants, and once I do have the shirt where it belongs, it doesn't really stay there, as I move around.

Wandering around the web, I saw this:

http://www.holsters-holsters-holsters.com/holster-tjm.htm

and I thoght I'd give it a try.

It took a while to get here, though Andy Arratoonian was quite upfront about what his backlog was when I ordered it, and he came through a bit earlier than he had promised. (four weeks instead of six).

The holster a decently made, and well-fitted thin IWB type. The only unusual feature is that it has velcro to stick to the inside of the belt.

The belt was actually a bit large for me, and even if it hadn't been, I didn't much care for it. I've been using a pretty ordinary 1" elastic web belt, instead. Initially with the IWB clip, but I soon sewed some velcro to the belt.

Now to keep this from turning into an Andy Arratoonian ad, I should point out that what I'm doing should work with any thin IWB holster, using an extra belt. I've ordered a FIST K1 Kydex, to see how that will work, thought it hasn't arrived.

In any case, what I'm doing is wearing an IWB holster on a second belt, that is entirely beneath my pants, worn lower on the hip.

I had originally thought I would position the pistol so the grip was slightly above the waistline of my pants, with the shirt over it, like a normal tuckable IWB holster, but without the problems of getting the shirt into the tucking slot of the holster.

That does work, pretty well.

But what I've been doing for the last couple of days is wearing the holster on the outside of my shirt, with the pistol placed just below the beltline, and about the 2:30 position, severly canted.

This puts it between the point of my right pelvis and above the muscles of my thigh. It's very stable, and very comfortable there, though a larger pistol may be problematic. (I' carrying a Kahr PM9).

I'm doing it this way because I can grip the bottom of the holster through the pants, and push the holster up past my pants belt, so that the grip is exposed for a draw, and I think this may be easier and faster than pulling up my shirt to expose the grip.

As for printing, there is none, with the sort of pants I wear (loose-fitting
khakis). When I sit, there is some printing, but there's no obvious outline, and since the pistol is sitting immediately behind my front pocket, where people expect to see the occassional bulge, I think it's unlikely to attract attention.

I'm not entirely sold on this approach, yet. I've used it only a couple of days, which means with only a couple of pairs of pants. I may find that it doesn't work at all with some of my clothes. But it seems to be working, so far.

[SGT109FA]

Whats the point of CCW if your not going to carry? Thats like owning a BMW and refusing to fuel it.

[Shooter 2.5]

"As for cover garments, I don't use them.

Polo shirts and khakis - standard business casual."

Uhm, Jdege, you just mentioned a polo shirt. Anything other than a cover garment would be fanny packs, briefcases or ankle holsters.

For the most part, I use Hawaiian Shirts, Polo Shirts, T Shirts and on the bike, a fanny pack.

Well, would anyone agree that a ten percent or less would be correct? As one person said, doing a survey might be impossible. Maybe they could poll the Licensees in the renewal classes.

[jdege]

When I think "cover garment", I think jacket, vest, untucked shirt, etc.

Something worn for the purpose of covering a belt holster.

If we're going to start calling a tucked shirt a "cover garment", we have to start calling pants a "cover garment". Which is true, in a technical sense, but it's not the usual usage among the folks I discuss this sort of thing with.

[tiberius]

Jdege,

What you're describing is basically a belly band like system. Have you tried wearing your Smartcarry the way that you described your holster with auxilary belt? I have ocassionally; it works OK and may be more comfortable. Just a thought.

[C1PNR]

Why all the concern about how many permittees carry?:mad: It's nobodys $@*& business who or how many are carrying! :barf: I don't want any kind of survey, study, etc. The only real beneficiaries of such a thing would be the jerkoff bad guys!!:cuss:

Of course, I really don't have any opinion about this subject. :neener:

[jdege]

tiberius

Yes, it shares much with the bellybands, or the SmartCarry/Thunderwear, in that the weight of the gun is not supported by the pants or belt.

Bellybands tend to have very wide elastic - 4" is common. You can use them that low - to position the gun where I position mine, but on me, it's uncomfortable, because I get chafing from the bottom of the band across the top of my thighs as I walk.

I can use the SmartCarry to keep position the gun there, but it's harder to draw. There isn't enough slack in my pants to reach may had down to the pistol, when the pistol is as far to the side as I wear it. And while it's not something I've tried, I'd wonder if a pistol in soft holster could be shifted up, partially outside the wasteband, the way a pistol in a stiff holster can be.

I like that I can easily move the holster to a position where I can do a quick draw, without having to draw the gun.

[Lennyjoe]

Lets just say the percentage increased in Texas a little and decreased in Arizona since Im visiting here for the next 6 weeks.

Dont leave home without it....

[c_yeager]

I think a lot of this is going to be state specific as well. For example Washington state has a mandatory 5 day (buisiness days to boot) waiting period on handgun purchases. This waiting period is waived if you have a CHP. Also the rules for having a gun in the car are such that it pretty much cant be done without a permit. For this reason i think that Washington at least probably has a lower percentage of permit holders that carry than some other states.

[slacker]

Most of my fiends with a CHL carry most of the time. The only times I don't carry is if I plan to be drinking or voting.

[Ala Dan]

You mentioned that your GF's parents normally leave
their CCW piece in their vechile.:rolleyes: My friend,
that's NOT a very good idea any where; especially
in BamaLand, with unemployment running
above the national average at 8.1%.:uhoh:

From my experience as a former LEO, if a perp steals
a gun from a vechile and is surprised by the owner;
then chances are 99% of the time he/she will use
the victims weapon on them. Not a very comforting
thought!:(

I recommend to NEVER, EVER leave a firearm in a
vechile for any length of time.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Double Naught Spy]

Shooter2.5 stated,

"If my logic is flawed, I would love to see realistic numbers.

My reasoning is based on Texas which is supposed to be a more gun orientated state. What does that say about states like Indiana or Washington who had them since the beginning? If people who get up in the morning and practice dilagently don't carry, who the heck does?"

-------------------

Here again, you have incongruent aspects that you are trying to link together. You said that if your logic is flawed that you would like to see realistic numbers. Logic and data are not the same thing.

Your original logic was flawed because there is no correlation between CHL holders and the number of people at an IDPA match who wear concealment garments. In fact, not all the folks who compete in IDPA here in Texas have CHLs and some of those folks don't have CHLs because they don't feel that is something that needs to be licensed and they still carry full time. On top of that, I know we have a couple IPDA shooters who aren't even of legal age to have a CHL. They don't carry, but they do compete.

Texas is a gun-oriented state, but even so, that does not mean Texas is an IDPA-oriented state or that there is some sort of numerical correlation between the two.

I don't know where you would find actual data that could be considered a valid estimate as opposed to a WAG on the percentage of CHL folks who carry all the time. However, this lack of known data does no mean that your assessment is somehow valid or isn't flawed. The only way your idea could be substantiated would be if you could determine there to be a relationship between CHL holders who carry all the time relative to the number of IDPA shooters who wore concealment garments. There isn't going to be any way you can do that. You have too many unknowns and a lack of control over the population and sampling. Your numbers would not account for those CHL holders who carry concealed in manners other than with something like a vest or jacket. There is pocket carry, ankle carry, purse carry, day planner carry, briefcase carry, boot carry, etc.

C1PNR's comment is classic and does represent the sentiments of a number of gun owners, CHL holders or not, who strongly feel that it is nobody else's business if they carry or not, or even if they own guns. As such, coming up with reliable data from sources who won't provide you with accurate information will make an estimation for those who carry to be a very difficult task.

Heck, you don't even have control over your original sample for which you based your less than <1% full-time carry estimate. You don't know if all the competitors had CHLs or if those wearing concealment garments had CHLs and you didn't query your sample population to determine how many of those folks actually carry full time or not. So you can't even substantiate your estimate based on the sample population for which it is based. Furthermore, you aren't even clear on just how many people were in your original sample population. And it gets worse. Your sample size of 3 known vest wearers relative to the sampled group is too small to be statistically valid for estimation.

No, I don't know any realistic numbers on CHL folks who carry all the time versus those who don't. Even so, that does not mean that I can't determine the logic behind your estimate to be flawed.

[Hutch]

<Thread drift> If you have on pants, you should have a pocket. If you have a pocket, you should have a small revolver in it. Works allatime. The J-frame is like an AmEx card. Don't leave home without it. No excuses.

[sw442642]

One of the officers of the TX CHL trainers association says 70% don't care regularly. It is only a convenience for car carry.

[TheOtherOne]

For the record, I never carry a gun. I just got my CCW because I wanted to feel special and give some money to the state to do so. ;)

I made the mistake of telling my nephew once that I was carrying and after that it was a non-stop thing every time I saw him and even in crowds of people, "so you packin?". I finally have him convinced again that I never carry a gun. That would just be silly.

Point being, concealed means concealed so even if you think someone isn't armed and even if they say they aren't carrying... you just never really know.

[paul]

Little revolver stays in the car...
Very occasionally will carry a small semiauto in a buttpack(holster in Tx).
paul

[Matt1911]

Almost 60% of people i KNOW that have permits carry ALL the time.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I was thinking about answering this openly and frankly, but after reading all the posts to this point and some careful consideration on my part, it is noone's business but my own and my immediate households to know when I'm carrying.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[revlar]

I wouldn't even let even family and close friends know.

Just tell them that if they are ever with you in a situation that may require the use of deadly force to move away from the threat - and from you.

Also - if you pocket carry just make sure you do not have anything else (especially small items) in that pocket. Barrel obstructions do nasty things.

[Shooter 2.5]

sw442642-"One of the officers of the TX CHL trainers association says 70% don't care regularly. It is only a convenience for car carry."

Well, at least that's something to go by. I had thought about asking some of the instructors I know what they thought. Thanks for the information.