Best rifle for defensive butt-stroking?


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Cannonball888
October 26, 2008, 11:10 PM
AKs and especially ARs seem ridiculous for this. Garands, M1As, and '03s look qualified and seem about equal. But my vote goes to the German mauser. That capped butt adds a lot of metal surface area compared to just a flat plate. The mauser buttstock also seems a bit thicker than other rifles too.

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Rubber_Duck
October 26, 2008, 11:13 PM
AKs and especially ARs seem ridiculous for this.

If I smacked you with the butt of my AKM I think you would change your mind.

alemonkey
October 26, 2008, 11:13 PM
Brown Bess

Sorry, it's a musket. For butt-stroking purposes it would suffice though.

General Geoff
October 26, 2008, 11:16 PM
Mosin Nagant, there is no contest. Three words:

Supreme War Club. :)

younganddumb
October 26, 2008, 11:25 PM
I think I go with a anything in 50 BMG just because all most anything that shoots that round is over 25 pounds.

Nugilum
October 26, 2008, 11:35 PM
Come on, Yugo SKS :uhoh:

Gord
October 26, 2008, 11:42 PM
Copycat! (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=400515)

:neener:

SimpleIsGood229
October 26, 2008, 11:47 PM
I, too, cast my vote for the unrivaled, Supreme War Club; the Mosin-Nagant. However, I must specifically vote for the M44.


young, If you are able to buttstroke someone with a Barrett, you're a stronger man than I. Seriously, those are things are difficult to even hold off-hand for more than a few seconds.

telecaster1981
October 27, 2008, 01:33 AM
Garand or FN49 for me...Mausers seem plenty robust as well.

35 Whelen
October 27, 2008, 01:40 AM
Several years ago I ordered and received a Garand from the DCM...or ODCMP as it were. Anyhow, I was commenting to my Dad, who was in the Army in the mid '50's, how heavy my Garand was and how silly it seemed to put as rifle in such a thick, heavy stock. He said: "Of course it's heavy! They made it that way for a reason! In "basics", they taught us that if you run out of ammunition, you grab the rifle by the barrel and use it for a club!"

35W

sharkhunter2018
October 27, 2008, 01:41 AM
I'd take just about any mil-surp with a steel butt plate. Of the ones I have, I'll take either my Garand or M44.

R.W.Dale
October 27, 2008, 02:04 AM
Brown Bess

Sorry, it's a musket. For butt-stroking purposes it would suffice though.

As a plus it also doubles as a pike!

Gord
October 27, 2008, 02:07 AM
I'm gonna go with the 91/30. All the benefits of an M44, but with longer reach for barrel/bayo pokings! :D

Ben Shepherd
October 27, 2008, 02:07 AM
Guys I think you'd find an AR with the standard butt stock a pretty brutal tool for the job. Have you ever looked at the butt plate one closely? OUCH!

Oohrah
October 27, 2008, 04:23 AM
Plenty of practice in the late fifties with the M-1 Garand.
Never seen a stock break, and they had a decent sized
bayonet. The M-16s were the ones that needed a decent
platform when they quit running:cuss: Like the previous
bolt combat arms, there are no protruding hand grips or
dinky little blades to get in the wayof delivering a fatal
blow if needed with almost ten pounds of weight behind it.:)

woodybrighton
October 27, 2008, 07:11 AM
SlRS FALS for lesser beings(not my fault you were'nt born english:D)
were quite capable of persuading someone they had made a mistake

Beagle-zebub
October 27, 2008, 08:22 AM
I'm going to go with Mosins, and the 91/30 in particularly. That small, thing, metal-tipped thing hurts enough when you are shooting it, let alone getting clubbed with it, and the barrel and wooden forearm are so long that you can get a big swing radius, which is good for both reach and velocity. Through in that mean-ass bayonet, and you begin to see why it didn't matter if their bolts got sticky.

Jeff F
October 27, 2008, 08:28 AM
Any of them that are heavy and solid.

moooose102
October 27, 2008, 08:32 AM
well, personally, if i bring a gun, i want to use it as such, not a club. but if, for some reason i had to, i would say anything with a steel buttplate work work wonders.

jjohnson
October 27, 2008, 08:43 AM
How about the MAS, Lebel, or any other French rifle? Most of them don't shoot all that well, and have never been fired, but dropped only once or twice
by surrendering troops...:p

everallm
October 27, 2008, 09:52 AM
L1A1 FAL
Lee-Enfield

At a pinch if you had the SUIT sight on your L1A1 you can club then to death with that as well........

Ben_Shepherd

If you smack someone with an AR you have a reaaaaal high probability of fracturing the butt and/or buggering up your recoil buffer tube.......Not a good thing, weapon out for the count.

Billy Shears
October 27, 2008, 09:56 AM
I have an L1A1 with a SUIT. I know it's robust for an optic, but I'd be leary of knocking the rifle around with it mounted, lest I screw up the zero.

Also, to be honest, I wish they hadn't mounted the dang thing so high. I can't get a proper cheek weld on the stock and still look through the thing.

IndianaBoy
October 27, 2008, 12:57 PM
My M48 mauser would be a brutal club. The stock is thick and the wood seems to be extremely dense. It is a heavy rifle and that steel endcap would not be kind to a skull.

db_tanker
October 27, 2008, 01:02 PM
hmm...dang near any WW2 era rifle would be hell on your scalp...my K-31 would be rough...the two enfields...I'd pass, thanks.


The one I would actually fear more would be a full sized Trapdoor Springfield...


No, thank you I need that section of skull bone intact and not powdered. :neener:

pbhome71
October 27, 2008, 01:11 PM
I think anything with fiberglass-filled traditional-style stock (e.g. M14) lasts a bit longer if you have to whack a bunch of things....

Tarvis
October 27, 2008, 01:22 PM
especially ARs seem ridiculous for this.
What about the AR makes it ridiculous? If it's the integrity of the stock, remember the rifle is modular, put on an A2 stock and load it with a lead weight if you're ambitious enough.

If you are referring to the integrity of the lower receiver where the buffer tube screws in, you may have a point, but I'm willing to bet no one has done any real testing on the lower's integrity in that sense.

If you smack someone with an AR you have a reaaaaal high probability of fracturing the butt and/or buggering up your recoil buffer tube.......Not a good thing, weapon out for the count.
Maybe with a collapsible stock, but you'd have to hit someone really hard to bend that tube. You might be able to chip off a piece of the el-cheapo collapsible stocks, but the CTR's are pretty tough. I doubt you could hit someone hard enough to make a stock malfunction.
I think I go with a anything in 50 BMG just because all most anything that shoots that round is over 25 pounds.
They make AR conversions. Also, weight is good and all, but you'd be better off with a balanced rifle than you would with a heavy one.

foghornl
October 27, 2008, 01:23 PM
Would not really want to butt-stroke anyone with my Marlin .30/30

However; a smackdown delivered via the M1 Garand, SKS or M-44 Mosin.....

gvnwst
October 27, 2008, 01:30 PM
there is a reason that my AR's buttstock is called "clubfoot":D:D:D

Just kidding.

Really, AK or mosin!

RP88
October 27, 2008, 01:35 PM
for modern guns, definitely your AK. Hard, solid gun with a hard, solid buttplate. Get hit by it and it's all over. I personally wouldnt want to use an AR. As said before, the AR makes a good whiffle bat :D

lions
October 27, 2008, 01:58 PM
Also, weight is good and all, but you'd be better off with a balanced rifle than you would with a heavy one.
I'm with Tarvis on this one.

A heavy rifle does make a great club but isn't great for executing follow up movements. In basic training with the pugil sticks we were taught a series of strikes, such as: parry right, thrust, butt-stroke, butt-smash, slash. With each movement leaving you in position for the next. I feel like I could accomplish that better with something along the lines of an AK.

AKs and especially ARs seem ridiculous for this.

I agree the AR isn't ideal because of the recoil buffer tube in the stock but I don't see any drawbacks of using the AK. I would vote AK for the best.

tribbles
October 27, 2008, 02:33 PM
Seriously, I think that any given Mosin or Mauser would be an excellent butt-stroking implement.

SlamFire1
October 27, 2008, 03:51 PM
Japanese Arisaka.

The Japanese were very serious about hand to hand combat. They practiced live bayonet practice. If you look, you will find the pictures.

The Arisaksa rifle had reinforcement straps on the pistol grip, top and bottom. These straps were thick heavy steel, and they were there to prevent the stock from shattering during butt strokes.

The nose cap of the Arisaka also had tangs, to keep the foreend together when the bayonet was used.

I understand from a Special Services friend, that the Garand stock held together during buttstroke practice, but that a wooden M14 stock often shattered.

22lr
October 27, 2008, 04:02 PM
Id say Garand, a good tough rifle that is heavy enough to believe a nice blow but balanced enough as well. Heck they made it though Normandy, Iwo Jima.....thats all the proof I need that its a tough as heck rifle.

rbernie
October 27, 2008, 04:21 PM
If you smack someone with an AR you have a reaaaaal high probability of fracturing the butt and/or buggering up your recoil buffer tube.......Not a good thing, weapon out for the count.If I smack somebody with the butt of an AR, it's because it's out of ammo or otherwise no longer a useful rifle. At that point, I really don't think that I care too much if I damage the buffer tube.

MT GUNNY
October 27, 2008, 05:06 PM
B.A.R.

MT GUNNY
October 27, 2008, 05:13 PM
All joking aside!


For those who remember Basic training. Ive seen hundreds of soldiers Butt stroking dummies and stabbing with bayonets. In every instance Ive never seen a M16A2 stock Break.. If it was a problem I'm shure the military wouldn't have adopted them

woodybrighton
October 27, 2008, 05:13 PM
the L85 barrel jab was surprisingly effective aggresion beats a baseball bat anyday:D

MAKster
October 27, 2008, 05:22 PM
There was a post a while ago were a guy was fooling around and hit some drywall with a Benelli Nova and the butt broke off.

Float Pilot
October 27, 2008, 06:26 PM
Any Swede Mauser 94, 96 of M-38. The M/38 having the best length for bayonet and butt attack.

Swede AG-42. They are pretty darn tough.

Any M/98 Mauser variant.

Any 1903 or 1903A3 Springfield. (The C stock would be nice.)

P-14 or 1917 Enfield. (Heavy bone basher)

M-1 Garand.

Fiberglassed stocked M-14, although the hinged floorplate could cause problems.

FN-49. Talk about heavy duty....

A good solid FN- FAL

The G-3s with the old original solid fixed stocks would work OK.

scythefwd
October 27, 2008, 06:36 PM
In basic, I hit the dummies with everything I had with my M16. The dummies were the hard plastic claymore targets (very hard). The dummy stopped me full swing with everything I had, and the stock showed now wear at all. A military style AR stock is sufficient to take a good but stroke. I'd rather have my garand though.

_N4Z_
October 27, 2008, 07:45 PM
I was taught the butt stroke with the M16A1.


But I am going to vote Mosin. M44 or 38 CQB, any other variation for on the open field. :D

benEzra
October 27, 2008, 07:58 PM
AKs and especially ARs seem ridiculous for this.
The AK was DESIGNED to be strong enough for use as an impact weapon. Remember, this was only a few years after Stalingrad.

In fact, Eastern European AK folding stocks are strong enough to use as impact weapons. (Although Western aftermarket stocks probably aren't.) And you can drive nails with AK magazines.

Sonny Puzikas (former Spetsnaz) has a video out showing some interesting hand-to-hand methods of wielding the AK, using not just the butt but also the front sight post and the slant brake for strikes. I assume some of this was meant for crowd control, as a lot of the front-sight techniques are takedowns (not particularly practical for civilians, but interesting to watch).

Avenger
October 27, 2008, 09:28 PM
Having actually tried it (into an old punching bag), I can say that the 91/30 is a GREAT bayonet platform. And it would make a good club too, it balances right under the trigger group, which means most of weight is at the butt end.

Hmmm, I just thought of something.....I wonder how well a 91/30 would do as a SPEAR?!?!

Brian Williams
October 27, 2008, 10:24 PM
Any more talk about (as my Drill instructor aptly said) packing peanut butter and you will find yourself out the door.

Gord
October 27, 2008, 10:49 PM
I wonder how well a 91/30 would do as a SPEAR?

Pretty much my reason for choosing it here. Given the choice (and assuming I weren't in the middle of a seething mass of zombies, or something) I'd rather have the extra reach and simply kebab someone from five feet away than get down and dirty with a buttstock at contact distance. If it did come to that, I'm sure it'd be too long and butt-heavy to grab by the barrel and use as an actual club for any length of time, but it occurs to me that it'd make a very effective "double lightsaber" deal keeping a normal grip on the gun. Buttstrokes with the buttstock, jabs and whacks with the barrel...

Dienekes
October 27, 2008, 11:11 PM
Tried it once for real with a M94 .30-30 carbine. Slight error in timing (let the guy get a little too close) and contact was made with the muzzle and front sight. I was trying to connect with the curved steel buttplate at the time. Slight error in technique aside, it was enough to bust his jaw.

Always have been fond of that little Winchester ever since...

The Garand would be the club of choice, though.

rbernie
October 27, 2008, 11:52 PM
but it occurs to me that it'd make a very effective "double lightsaber" deal keeping a normal grip on the gun. Buttstrokes with the buttstock, jabs and whacks with the barrel...
This was the technique we were taught in Basic. You shifted the strong hand from the pistol grip to the base of the stock just above the grip, and used both ends of the rifle to good effect.

rangerruck
October 28, 2008, 05:12 AM
Mosin.

HM2PAC
October 28, 2008, 05:49 AM
Any of my MilSurp's would do.

Now that I've replaced the stock on my PTR with wood, it would do OK as well.

Hutch
October 28, 2008, 10:00 AM
Garand. One lick on the grape, and they'll be getting coloring books for Christmas for the rest of their lives. <wish I could remember where I read that...>

627PCFan
October 28, 2008, 10:03 AM
Finished off a crow with a Benelli one time. Recoil pad didnt help much-

MilsurpShooter
October 29, 2008, 10:23 PM
I gotta go with the Yugo M48 on this one

http://www.tri-eagle-firearms.com/Yugo_Mauser_M-48%20Rifle.JPG

Neo-Luddite
October 29, 2008, 10:34 PM
Well, I qualified with the Bayonet using an m16a1 'rubber duck' rifle.

You could no doubt dispatch someone unto judgment by stroking them with a solid-stocked AR.

But as for me, I'd turn to the M-1 for pike duty--you have good reach, weight and authority--even with the shorter m5a1 bayonet.

But a SMLE with some stout furniture (like an Aussie made one from Lithgow) with a heavy brass plate would be mighty fine by me and maybe a bit faster.

Cannonball888
October 29, 2008, 11:00 PM
I gotta go with the Yugo M48 on this one
Ding ding ding. We have a winner! The military mauser or a clone thereof has a capped metal butt and a butstockstock thicker than any other milsurp including a Mosin.

longdayjake
October 29, 2008, 11:54 PM
I have finished off a few milk jugs with my garand butt. They were definately flat. One thing I think is fun to do is to stab a milk jug with my m24/47 and then shoot it off the bayonet. Man, I haven't done that for years.

Float Pilot
October 30, 2008, 03:18 AM
A very interesting fencing rifle used by the Swedes for bayonet practice. the rod on the end was spring loaded.....So they issued face masks and let the troops go at each other with these things...


http://dutchman.rebooty.com/fenmusk.html

Matt-J2
October 30, 2008, 03:23 AM
The Mosin-Nagant, any variety. It's weighty, plenty sturdy, seems well shaped for the job, and if you manage to break it on a Nazi skull, there's probably a million or more laying on the ground in your general area that you can pick up for more of the only kind of fun the Soviet state allows you to have.

P-32
October 30, 2008, 03:40 AM
Back in my Navy days (late 70's) I was on a carrier (USS Midway CV41) when they were having a drill with silver bullets on hanger bay 2. The Marines had the hanger bay secured and only those involved were allowed to be in hanger 2. Some of our office spaces were behind bay 2 and there was a hatch I was able stand in and over looking bay 2. The hatch was at the head of a ladder going down to bay 2.

I saw a JO (Junior Officer) come up a ladder from a deck below on the port side and as his head came up above the deck of bay 2, he was met by a Marine who plainly told him he could not be there and needed to go back down the ladder. The JO did as he was told and then came back up the ladder again to argue. The next thing I knew was the JO got to meet the butt stock of the Marines M-16 with a "bipp" on the noggin. The JO sort of melted back out of sight. (yeah, he flat fell down the ladder) None of the other Marines went over to find out what happened.

I got a good chuckle and went back to my workcenter with a big 'ol grin. Yes, there is some justice in the world. I can all but guess when the JO went to complain, his commander told him he should of did what he was told!

geophysicishooter
October 30, 2008, 03:40 AM
I guess no one else laughed outloud at the subject line of this thread? I had to wonder just what "defensive butt-stroking" might involve.. butt stroking always seemed like more of an offensive move to me..

but defense from being butt-stroked just might justify the need for a rifle.. I guess it just depends on whose ox and what ditch you're talking about..

but I knew it had lasted three pages so this had to be an interesting topic..

turns out, not so much.. just a debate about which antiquated battle rifle is best to bash someone's head in with.. My guess is you've made a wrong turn somewhere if your life hinges on whether or not the weapon you have which is now out of ammunition is suitable for bashing in someone's face. either that, or you're a professional infantry combat soldier and you probably don't worry about it that much..

Mat, not doormat
October 30, 2008, 06:35 AM
I'd say a Hawken. Heavy, and with a stock that pointy, who needs a bayonet?

rust collector
October 30, 2008, 09:09 AM
I'm thinkin MP44 for close combat, MG 34 for longer distances. Both had stubby little buttstocks that seemed like they could do some damage.

Then again, maybe a steeply hooked buttplate like on an old scheutzen rifle would inflict more pain.

I would have to resort to my K31 for this purpose. Quite a bit more wood there than necessary, and it got used a lot.

H2O MAN
October 30, 2008, 09:30 AM
Best rifle for defensive butt-stroking?

The empty one.

Coronach
October 30, 2008, 11:28 AM
SaxonPig wins the thread!

Reid73
October 30, 2008, 01:58 PM
personally, if i bring a gun, i want to use it as such, not a club.Ditto. If you need to hit someone, use a brick.

In a pinch, just about anything can be used as a club. I certainly wouldn't consider such (remotely possible) use when selecting a rifle.

Matt-J2
October 30, 2008, 02:34 PM
Many of the rifles mentioned hit just as hard as a brick. :-P

When I look at purchasing a rifle, I don't consider using it as a melee implement, however, if it's sturdy enough to be used as such then it's going to be sturdy enough for just about any other rough use/conditions. Probably holds true the other way around, as well.

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