Getting Stopped by the Police w/ a Car/Truck Shoulder Weapon?


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Skunkabilly
September 15, 2003, 01:51 AM
Out of curiosity, who here has gotten stopped by the police while you had a truck/car long gun? What state are you from and what happened?

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Glockster35
September 15, 2003, 02:23 AM
Skunkabilly,

Last year (before coming to Germany) I took my family on a trip from California through to Montana in our new Mini-van. Before you snicker, the van was purchased for our time in Germany, as a trip taker, and has come in very handy.

Anyway, along with us on our trip, I took the following. My Glock 35, Glock 23, SA 1911, Savage 10FP, in .308, M1, 30 Carbine, and Ruger 10-22.

I was stopped for speeding in Montana, actually in the area near Butte. No big deal really, once I told the officer I had weapons in the vehicle, he had me step out and speak with him.

Needless to say he was impressed with my small collection, and was an advid hunter himself.

Jeff White
September 15, 2003, 03:45 AM
Skunky,
Where are you carrying this shoulder weapon? In the trunk? If so, why mention it? If it's in the passenger compartment you may or may not have to answer questions about it. Depends on where you live.

I stopped a pickup with plates from a Western State going through town a few years ago. The guy had a very nice uncased scoped rifle in the rack in the rear window. That's a big no-no here in the PRI. So I explained Illinois law to him and asked if he had a case. He didn't and it was about 11pm. no place to buy one (this was before Wal-Mart Supercenter came to town). Had him follow me to the PD and gave him an old blanket out of my truck, so he could wrap the rifle up and put it behind the seat of the pickup. Still not legal, but it would be out of sight and he'd be less likely to get in trouble before he got into a free state.

Jeff

Watchman
September 15, 2003, 06:12 AM
As a part time deputy,I've stopped lots of people with rifles in the back window of the pickup truck, rifles leaning up against the seat and a few with overhead mounted rifle racks.

Its not agains the law here, so its not really an issue. In lots of cases, we'll end up discussing them a bit, it seems like lots of people like to show them off and if you have a clue about them, it just opens up the talk even more.

If you are doing something stupid...like running 90 in a 55, I might check the serial number on it.

I live in Arkansas, and I understand that its different here in the south. We had a retired police officer from NYC(Bronx) get bored and get a job as a deputy, he really had a hard time understanding that all of the AR's and AK's he was seeing in windows really were legal. Here, we routinley see stuff that if it were up north somewhere they would have a SWAT team waiting for you at roadblock.

Its kinda funny too...he had some fairly antigun views that we finally got him to change his mind about. Soon thereafter, he was bought an AR,an AK, a MAC 9,SKS, and a bunch of stuff that he couldnt legally own in NYC.He was like an unchained puppy. :D

Zach S
September 15, 2003, 09:28 AM
I have. I live in NC.

"Know why I stopped you, sir?"
"Probably speeding, I wasnt paying attn"
"Got you doing 47(?) in a 35. Do you have any drugs or weapons in the vehicle?"
"No drugs, but I've got an 870 in the trunk, full tube, empty chamber"
"Heh, so do I, good choice. Wait here, I'll be back in a minute."
(few mins pass, with me sweating bullets)
"Ok, I wrote you a warning ticket for speeding and I noticed you have an expired inspection sticker. You need to watch your speed, and have the car inspected. Thanks for your cooperation, have a nice night."
"You too officer"

berettaman
September 15, 2003, 09:57 AM
Here in Oklahoma you can get pulled over for "NOT" having a rifle in the back window of your Pic-em-up Truck.(specialy during hunting season):evil:

It's really not an issue here in the mid-west/south.

cordex
September 15, 2003, 10:20 AM
*thinks*
Not sure if I've ever been stopped without a long gun in the trunk. I've never brought it up.

Norm357
September 15, 2003, 11:46 AM
I stopped a pickup with plates from a Western State going through town a few years ago. The guy had a very nice uncased scoped rifle in the rack in the rear window. That's a big no-no here in the PRI. So I explained Illinois law to him and asked if he had a case. He didn't and it was about 11pm. no place to buy one (this was before Wal-Mart Supercenter came to town). Had him follow me to the PD and gave him an old blanket out of my truck, so he could wrap the rifle up and put it behind the seat of the pickup. Still not legal, but it would be out of sight and he'd be less likely to get in trouble before he got into a free state.




Jeff, you are a credit to your profession.

Norm

Dorrin79
September 15, 2003, 11:54 AM
I was stopped headed to Houston with a large part of my arsenal in the cab of my truck.

cop asked if I had any weapons, I told him I had several cased/holstered firearms I was taking to Houston with me to go shooting.

He wrote me a warning for speeding and sent me on my way.

I believe it was a Fort Bend Sheriff's deputy.

Skunkabilly
September 15, 2003, 12:04 PM
Jeff, I have a Honda CRV. No 'trunk' per se, just a very large 'passenger compartment' as defined by CA law. I leave them on the floor of the passenger row so they don't bounce around and I fold the seats up when I want to hide them from view so nosy kleptos don't break my windows.

I figure I knew better to ask the cops here since y'all're obviously gun-friendly, but wonder if anyone had any negative experiences...

"Do you have any guns in the vehicle?"
"Uhh yeah officer, what caliber and how many do you need?" :D

keyhole
September 15, 2003, 12:08 PM
I have been stopped numerous times, for different reasons. I have never offered what I was carrying, ( not asked either ).

Of course, since I carry quite a lot, ( I'm a Deputy Sheriff ), and this is the midwest, it's no big deal. If asked, I would tell what I had at the time, and where it was.
Now my dad on the other hand was stopped by a trooper, and asked if he had any drugs or guns in his car. Told the trooper he had both. The trooper asked where they were, and he said they were in the trunk. The trooper escorted him to the trunk, as asked him to step back. He opened a small bag, that dad had said had the drugs in. When he saw pappy's heart med's, he said, " Is this all?". He then asked about the gun, and pappy pointed to a gun rug, and the trooper took out a High Power, again asking if that was all. Dad told him he asked about guns or drugs, and he was being truthfull.:neener:

In all the cars I have stopped over the years, I never had a problem with people carrying guns in them, unless they were causing problems, like domestics. Most are just going from one place to another, with no malicious intents. Like me:evil:

El Tejon
September 15, 2003, 12:09 PM
"Any guns or knives in the car?"
"Yes, officer, but the neighbor's dog told me to chill."

:D

tetleyb
September 15, 2003, 12:31 PM
I am a police officer in the SF Bay Area. Where I work, if we saw a pickup truck with a rifle in the cab, hanging up, it would be an automatic high risk stop. Fortunately/unfortunately, I work in an urban environment and there really is no reason for a person to have a rifle hanging up in their truck/car.

If you just had firearms in the truck/car after being pulled over and I saw it, or you told me about it, you would be pulled out at gun point. This would depend upon the officer. I'm considered to be a little more aggressive then most (at the sametime, I go home alive everynite too).

It appears, by the replys on this board, it would really depend where you were at. A rural area in CA, where people hunt, wouldn't attract too much attention. The midwest, south, etc where its common place also wouldn't. However, I wouldn't advise it in New York City.

cordex
September 15, 2003, 12:51 PM
in an urban environment [...] there really is no reason for a person to have a rifle hanging up in their truck/car.If you just had firearms in the truck/car after being pulled over [...] you would be pulled out at gun point.
Hrm.
I've dealt with police in urban, suburban and rural settings. Every time, I've had a handgun on my hip and/or ankle, and a rifle in the trunk (when in my car). I'm extremely glad none of them treated me as you would have.

Norm357
September 15, 2003, 12:57 PM
Tetlyb, I too live in a urban area. Atlanta is about as urban as you get. If an officer had your attitude here, he wouldnt be an officer long.


Norm

El Tejon
September 15, 2003, 12:59 PM
tet, I live in an urban area and regularly have firearms in my vehicles. My guns are not for hunting.

There is no reason for a police officer to act that way as it is not a violation of any statute. It WOULD be a great reason for a lawsuit.

Glockster35
September 15, 2003, 01:05 PM
Tetleyb,

Get off your high horse! Jeez!!!

I used to be stationed at Edwards AFB in California. One of our on base roads was used as a go-between shortcut through the desert. Several times I stopped off duty LASO personnel driving this particular stretch, mostly for speeding. Upon contacting them, they all explained they had weapons in the vehicle. Instead of pulling them out at gunpoint, which I was justified to do. I simply explained that while on a federal installation (which the base was), it was unlawful for them to have the weapon on their person, or in the vehicle. I did so in a polite manner which is professional. Maybe you ought to try it sometime.

Jeff White
September 15, 2003, 01:09 PM
Before anyone get's all bent out of shape about tetleyb's post, let me remind everyone that one of the big reasons we have local law enforcement agencies is so that each community can have it's own standards. What's acceptable where I work won't be acceptable where someone else works. When you start on the job, you soon learn what the community standards are. It might even be in their policy manual to treat that situation as a high risk stop.

El T, You also live and work in an area where there are decent gun laws. I don't know what the California ststutes are on transporting firearms, but it could be that it's illegal to put a rifle in the gun rack in your rear window there, just like it is here.

That's all tetleyb was referring to. Officers working in areas where firearms are common are naturally going to look at their presence in a vehicle differently then those who work where basically only the police or the bad guys routinely carry weapons. The best advice is to follow whatever the law is on transporting firearms. That way you don't have to worry about things.

Jeff

EricO
September 15, 2003, 01:11 PM
TetleyB, help the Skunk and fellow CA occupants out here since you're a CA LE. Obviously, since the Skunk's urban assault vehicle of choice (CRV) has no trunk but rather an area behind the rearmost seats accessed via the rear hatch or over the seat backs, he cannot place them in a "trunk". However, doesn't CA law on this simply say that the firearm needs to be transported in a locked container (a locked case for a longarm), ammo separate, and NOT ACCESSIBLE to the driver, in this case, back behind the rear seats? That should satisfy the requirements I believe.

Obviously, your comment about taking someone out of the car at gunpoint after you saw or they told you about firearms meant if they weren't cased.
As far as your being more agressive than most, good for you. I'm from the Bay Area also, and I would do the same. Keep safe.

EricO

Norm357
September 15, 2003, 01:11 PM
Jeff I respectfuly disagree. Because of this statement.


If you just had firearms in the truck/car after being pulled over [...] you would be pulled out at gun point.

Daniel T
September 15, 2003, 01:14 PM
Tetleyb says he works for San Fransisco PD, doesn't suprise me they would act like that.

John/az
September 15, 2003, 01:16 PM
tetleyb,

Hopefully your time here will put some ice on what, to most on this board, appears to be an over-reaction.

True, you go home every night, but the attitude that you are creating and feeding in those you treat this way is not doing you, or ANY police force any favors.

SodaPop
September 15, 2003, 01:30 PM
I got in a bad car accident about 4 months ago. I got knocked out in the initial impact, and when I came to, I was surrounded by Cops and Paramedics. I opened the door, but was carried out of the car with my Beretta 92FS on me. I told the police officer that I was carrying and he asked where the gun was. He asked if I had a CCW permit and I said, "YES". He just told me to take the gun off and asked if I could hold it while on the stretcher. I was carrying about $600 cash in one hand and a Beretta 92FS in the other hand........ and on my way to the ER:what:

When I got to the hospital ER room the security asked for the gun. They kept it in a safe and AFAIK nobody even checked my permit.

The next day (when I checked out) I had to go down to security where my gun was held and they handed it back to me without and problems. Apparently most of the nurses at the hospital were married to the cops and weren't afraid of guns.
:)

I was very happy with the Yeadon, Pennsylvania-Police Department.

EricO
September 15, 2003, 01:40 PM
Everyone, before you condemn TetleyB, perhaps you should let him comment or clear up some things. In my mind, I believe that his statement about pulling someone out at gunpoint merely at the mention of having firearms in the car, or him seeing a firearm, meant if it was uncased (which is not lawful in this state) and accessible to the driver or passenger. Now, considering that it's unlawful, and also being up on your tactical knowledge (i.e., Tueller rule, OODA loops, action beats reaction, etc, etc. ad nauseum!) you would be a fool not to treat this as a serious threat to your survival. There are so many variables here that talking about it is nearly impossible. If I had just pulled someone over for a traffic violation, and in approaching the front doors (during my plain view observations of the interior of the car) I noticed an uncased handgun tucked between the seat and armrest, you darn well bet I'd have my handgun out, and quickly retreat to the rear of the vehicle, calling "Gun!" It is illegal to carry a weapon like that, and everyone should know it. Place yourself in that position and tell me you would do differently. I read in many discussion forums/tactics subforums about people's fabulous tactics and the way they handled something. Well, just because the person may (and I say this with reservation) be a law abiding (but rather just oblivious and lacking of commonsense) citizen carrying a weapon in plain view and accessible while driving, doesn't mean that a LE officer should throw caution to the wind and take that chance. I'd rather the LE go home at night and risk scaring the devil out of some "nermal" who didn't abide by the local law (however misplaced sometimes) of transporting firearms. Let's support our LE, not berate them.

There, rant mode off.
EricO
Bay Area, CA

LawDog
September 15, 2003, 01:43 PM
*snort*

This is Texas. We don't have any laws or regulations regarding the carry of shotguns or rifles, other than the courthouses/places of execution/polling places and the stupid school grounds/racetrack laws.

Just carrying a rifle or shotgun down the road? No law against it.

I have, in the past, advised people that I have stopped that they might wish to take a rifle or shotgun out of a window rack and place it behind the seat, but that's solely due to smash-and-snatch critters hanging about the local shopping areas, and it would purely break my heart to have a nice little O/U or rifle stolen out of a truck by some no-account meth-head looking to fund his next $20 fix.

Heh.

The Special Crimes guys see everything that man can do to man, so they're not what you'd call exactly emotional while at work.

Howsomeever, one of the absolutely worst facial tics I have ever seen was developed on a Special Crimes detective after he discovered that the shotgun stolen by one of our local meth-heads out of the Wal-Mart shopping lot was, in fact, a Weatherby Athena.

Detective: "You don't have a clue that the shotgun you stole was worth about three grand?"

Meth Dde: "Really?"

Detective: "And you traded it for how much meth?"

Meth Dude: "Two big rocks." (About $35-$50)

Detective: "Are you ****ing serious?"

Meth Dude: (offended)"I was sick bad, man, I just needed a couple of rocks, was all."

Detective: *twitch, twitch, twitch*

Meth Dude: "What?"

:evil:

LawDog

Augustwest
September 15, 2003, 02:04 PM
I work in an urban environment and there really is no reason for a person to have a rifle hanging up in their truck/car.

Other than it being their unquestionable right to do so, you mean? ;)

Stick around tetley, this place'll show you a thing or two...

Dot_mdb
September 15, 2003, 02:11 PM
"If you just had firearms in the truck/car after being pulled over and I saw it, or you told me about it, you would be pulled out at gun point. This would depend upon the officer. I'm considered to be a little more aggressive then most (at the sametime, I go home alive everynite too)."

I don't understand this logic. If I had firearms in the car, but secured and I told you the truth that they were there then you would pull me out at gun point. If I don't tell you the truth then you don't pull me out at gun point.

How about if I just don't answer the question? You would have to get a search warrant to search the vehicle. But on what basis if the firearms were not visable?

Tetleyb, I think you are a little out of control. I live in NJ where we have some of the strictist firearms laws in the country, but we also have basic laws that protect even firearms enthusiasts when transporting weapons. One of these days you will pull your little stunt with an attorney and you will find yourself looking for another profession.

Bill

EricO
September 15, 2003, 02:55 PM
Dot_mdb wrote, "How about if I just don't answer the question? You would have to get a search warrant to search the vehicle. But on what basis if the firearms were not visable?"

In response:

Actions a LE officer may take when a vehicle is lawfully stopped. - ...may ask for consent to search. ...may question the occupants of the car. In response, the US Supreme Ct has made it clear that such questioning may take place without any prior Miranda-type warnings, etc. etc. Despite the fact that no warnings are required, persons being questioned do enjoy a constitutional right not to respond, and although a failure to respond MAY be taken into consideration as an officer weighs facts in assessing whether probably cause to arrest or search exists, a person's failure to respond probably cannot constitue in itself a criminal offense, since the person is merely exercising a right guaranteed by the Constitution.

Actions without a search warrant. - Ask for consent to search. Under a Terry or investigative stop - ...a frisk or pat down protective search, A search of the passenger compartment of a vehicle for weapons. In addition, the Carroll rule, or automobile exception affirms that every part of the vehicle may be searched as well as containers in the vehicle. Any mobile vehicle - aircraft, watercraft (boats and ships), snowmobiles, trucks, and buses are included.

Search of Detained vehicle. The US Supreme CT held that where officers reasonably suspect the presence of weapons in a lawfully stopped vehicle, they may make a limited search of the vehicle's interior to locate and control the weapons. Such searches must be limited to places where weapons might be concealed.

EricO
"I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on television!"

EricO
September 15, 2003, 03:06 PM
Gentleman, and ladies (if present), as I wrote before I think that we should let TetleyB qualify his statements before condemning him. I believe that he meant if the weapon was uncased and accessible, which is illegal in the area he represents. With this so, you would be a fool not to take measures, those measures would vary based upon the situation at hand. Based upon the above, I daresay that if you were in his shoes and approached a car (lawfully pulled over, by the way) and saw a weapon easily accessed next to the driver, I seriously doubt that you would not take it seriously. Am I to believe that you would not take defensive measures for your safety, but simply ask for license and registration of the unknown (at this point) driver, and allow the person to have access to the weapon while you were running this info? Get serious! This would place you well behind the curve. When you critique LE officers for their actions, first try to place yourself in their shoes (honestly) and ask yourself if you would really do things the way you thought. Most of all, have the guts to honestly analyze the situation. If, in the above situation, you still wouldn't take defensive measures, then you failed, and you simply won't make it long in the profession. It will just be a matter of time.
EricO

barqfox
September 15, 2003, 03:11 PM
On the issue of the CRV... Was kinda curious, since I have a Rav4...

Source: CA Attorney General's Homepage @ http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/travel.htm

General Guidelines for Transporting Firearms in California

HANDGUNS

California Penal Code section 12025 does not prevent a citizen of the United States over 18 years of age who is not within any of the classes excepted from firearm possession and who resides or is temporarily in California from transporting by motor vehicle any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person if the firearm is unloaded and in a locked container.

The term "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device. This includes the trunk of a motor vehicle, but does not include the utility or glove compartment. For more information, refer to California Penal Code Section 12026.1.


SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES

Nonconcealable firearms (rifles and shotguns) are not generally covered within the provisions of California Penal Code section 12025 and therefore are not required to be transported in a locked container. However, as with any firearm, nonconcealable firearms must be unloaded while they are being transported. A rifle or shotgun that is considered an assault weapon in California must be transported in accordance with Penal Code section 12026.1.


REGISTERED ASSAULT WEAPONS

California Penal Code section 12285(c)(7) requires that registered assault weapons may be transported only between specified locations and must be unloaded and in a locked container when tranported.

The term "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device. This includes the trunk of a motor vehicle, but does not include the utility or glove compartment. For more information, refer to California Penal Code Section 12026.1.

-----------------------------------------------------

I take this to mean that it's legal for me carry my unloaded pistol in my padlocked case anywhere in my vehicle, or to carry my unloaded rifle in plain sight. I certainly hope I wouldn't get dragged out of my vehicle at gunpoint, simply for pointing out the fact that the small, locked box in the back of my Rav had a firearm in it. :P

-Tom

EricO
September 15, 2003, 03:21 PM
Tom wrote, "I take this to mean that it's legal for me carry my unloaded pistol in my padlocked case anywhere in my vehicle, or to carry my unloaded rifle in plain sight. I certainly hope I wouldn't get dragged out of my vehicle at gunpoint, simply for pointing out the fact that the small, locked box in the back of my Rav had a firearm in it. "

--I should certainly hope not Tom, and I doubt that it would happen also. However, if you place an unloaded rifle in plain sight, quickly accessible to you, the driver (if alone in the car), do not assume that the officer won't take measures for his safety. Remember firearm's laws - Every weapon IS loaded! He doesn't know it is unloaded, and would be a fool for assuming it. Let's (not talking specifically to you Tom) use some friggin common sense here!

EricO

Futo Inu
September 15, 2003, 03:43 PM
Any LEO pulls me out at gunpoint for having a rifle in a rifle rack is gonna get a formal complaint from me, along with anything else I can think of doing that could possibly harm the LEO. The SF cop is a Nazi who needs to figure out the difference between a gun which is capable of being used to threaten him and one which is not. Also not a bad idea for you to get in the habit of looking to see where the occupant's hand are - as I keep my high and open on the top of the steering wheel when stopped - can you see why I might be pissed for being pulled out at gunpoint when acting as I do, gun or no gun? There are many ways/factors you can use to make the distinctions you need to make to do your job without increasing your risk, while at the same time preserving the civil rights of the people. It's bad to say, but with that attitude, I truly hope a few good citizens get you cornered in an alley and beat the crap out of you someday, since an extreme attitude adjustment is in order, IMO. You shouldn't be an LEO if you can't distinguish between a threat and a non-threat. OK, flame away; I'm ready..... :fire:

Skunkabilly
September 15, 2003, 03:58 PM
Whoa there! I understand your frustration, but careful with the namecalling.... (And he said 'SF Bay Area' not SFPD).... Letting emotions control oneself is for liberals :)

Tetley, did you mean a rifle in plain view, or one being transported lawfully? :confused:

barqfox
September 15, 2003, 04:03 PM
EricO said:

--I should certainly hope not Tom, and I doubt that it would happen also. However, if you place an unloaded rifle in plain sight, quickly accessible to you, the driver (if alone in the car), do not assume that the officer won't take measures for his safety. Remember firearm's laws - Every weapon IS loaded! He doesn't know it is unloaded, and would be a fool for assuming it. Let's (not talking specifically to you Tom) use some friggin common sense here!

I didn't say it was a GOOD idea! :eek:

I should have qualified that statement.. The law as stated on the Attorney General's page seems somewhat vague [from what I gather] in regards to the rifle. No way in hell would I carry ANY firearm or firearm replica in plain sight in my vehicle, or even in my backyard [in this state]. Just because you can [arguably], doesn't mean you should! :what:

-Tom

spacemanspiff
September 15, 2003, 04:44 PM
Where I work, if we saw a pickup truck with a rifle in the cab, hanging up, it would be an automatic high risk stop.
okay, help me understand...in tetleys area, is it in fact ILLEGAL to have a weapon in the vehicle? if so, that might explain the felony stops on anyone who admits to having a firearm with them.

i guess i should just be thankful to live in a state where gunowners are not treated like thugs. to answer the question of this thread, in Alaska, any long gun must be unloaded while being transported in a vehicle, trunk or not.

longtom4570
September 15, 2003, 05:10 PM
There are many dead officers, who failed to recognize a threat and payed for it with their lives:cuss: , perhaps we can set up a widows/widower trust fund and some one can step forward,when an officer is killed and present it to the wife or husband and kids:fire:

45R
September 15, 2003, 05:15 PM
Generally IIRC in CA its not illegal to transport a firearm in the vehicle as long as it is in a locked container. Seperate from Ammo.


IMHO management of persons lawfully transporting firearms is a communication skill. If you dont have the communication skills to deal with the public without pointing your loaded firearm at them.....you shouldnt be dealing with the public.

Glockster35
September 15, 2003, 05:19 PM
Longtom4570,

You said it, so I nominate you to do the deed!
:evil:

Now having thought about this topic for a bit. I guess I understand Tetleyb's stance, and some of the other LEO's posting. He is in the PRK where it is illegal to do anything if it involves thinking for yourself.

cordex
September 15, 2003, 05:27 PM
I think that we should let TetleyB qualify his statements before condemning him. I believe that he meant if the weapon was uncased and accessible, which is illegal in the area he represents.
If that is, indeed, what he meant, I could uncomfortably accept that he is acting in accordance with, and in support of the unjust laws of his jurisdiction.
But he brought up two possible circumstances ...
Where I work, if we saw a pickup truck with a rifle in the cab, hanging up, it would be an automatic high risk stop.
In this case, a visible, accessable long arm.
If you just had firearms in the truck/car after being pulled over and I saw it, or you told me about it, you would be pulled out at gun point.
In this case, it certainly implies to me that he's talking about any firearms that he sees or otherwise knows about.

I'm willing to be wrong, though. And hope for the sake of all the law-abiding citizens living in the SF Bay area that I am.
There are many dead officers, who failed to recognize a threat and payed for it with their lives
Which excuses heavy-handed, us-v-them actions on the part of officers ... how?
If Jeff White pulled me over and explained that "No, Mr. Cordex, that rifle in your passenger compartment is illegal ... here, lemme give you a blanket to wrap it up in and you be careful, okay?", I'm going to come away from that encounter feeling pretty kindly towards Mr. White, and law enforcement in general. If, instead, the officer pulling me over draws down on me, calls in the SWAT team, informs the FBI and sends the K9 unit after me, I'm going to come away (assuming I'm not shot by the overeager cop) feeling pretty negatively towards the officers involved, as well as law enforcement in general.

EricO
September 15, 2003, 05:53 PM
Futo Inu wrote, "The SF cop is a Nazi who needs to figure out the difference between a gun which is capable of being used to threaten him and one which is not. Also not a bad idea for you to get in the habit of looking to see where the occupant's hand are - as I keep my high and open on the top of the steering wheel when stopped - can you see why"

Look Futo, I'm almost certain that TetleyB miswrote about pulling someone out of a vehicle because the ind. said that he had a weapon in the car, cased and inaccessible. However, if you can't understand about action beats reaction, and the fact that one could reach from the top of the steering wheel to the seat and back again before the LE reacts and draws, then you're simply not up on tactics. I suggest you cool down and think these things through a little better. I don't believe you're LE from your response, so unless you're willing to strap on the rig and do this yourself, then perhaps you should try to understand these things from the LE officer's point of view. You made a nice comment, "There are many ways/factors you can use to make the distinctions you need to make to do your job without increasing your risk, while at the same time preserving the civil rights of the people. " but I believe your version, or the one you think you'd do, would leave you dead. There's a lot of armchair quarterbacks out there, who think they know everything. Every situation doesn't require at gunpoint, felony stop like. Some may require only hand on grip, and a quick, stern warning not to move towards the weapon. You guys are reacting too hard and quick to this stuff.

Also, I can't believe your comment about some citizens beating the crap out of him. That was uncalled for, and (from your own words) it's bad to say, but with that attitude, I'm kinda wishing that you get pulled over carrying and start your indignant routine with a LE officer who tunes you up.

Tom wrote, "I didn't say it was a GOOD idea!

I should have qualified that statement.. The law as stated on the Attorney General's page seems somewhat vague [from what I gather] in regards to the rifle. No way in hell would I carry ANY firearm or firearm replica in plain sight in my vehicle, or even in my backyard [in this state]. Just because you can [arguably], doesn't mean you should! ""

--And there ya go. Someone with some commonsense.

Spacemanspiff wrote, "okay, help me understand...in tetleys area, is it in fact ILLEGAL to have a weapon in the vehicle? if so, that might explain the felony stops on anyone who admits to having a firearm with them. "

--I believe this is covered already. Please read the entire discussion. When you say weapon in the vehicle, let me cover this. Yes, it is illegal to have a loaded weapon (let's just say handgun in this case) in your vehicle.
There will be no felony stop or weapons pointed at you if you inform a LE officer that you are transporting a weapon/s in your vehicle. You will probably be asked as to the location of them in your vehicle (to determine if you are doing it properly) and if they are in a locked container, ammo separate. This is the law, and as such, anyone encountered not doing so, and with a weapon immediately accessible, maybe detained, patted down in a protective search, placed under arrest, etc. It all depends on the situation, the ind. officer, etc.

EricO

Jeff White
September 15, 2003, 06:03 PM
First of all, let me say that there are anti RKBA police officers just like their are anti RKBA people in every other profession. By and large you'll find that most street cops are pro RKBA.

Everyone posting in this thread needs to understand that there are different ways to do the very difficult job of being a police officer. And what's appropriate in one jurisdiction may not be appropriate somewhere else. Often the way the police have to do their job varies between neighborhoods in the same jurisdiction. Like it or not, there are some places in our country where stronger tactics and techniques are needed then in others. Some neighborhoods require a different approach in order to protect the good people who live there and to keep the very bad people who prey on them in check. It would be nice if you could be Reed and Malloy from Adam 12 everywhere in this country. But unfortunately you can't. There are a lot of places where you won't be effective or even survive long unless you are constantly dealing from the position of strength.

Did anyone read Erick's excellent article on gangs in the current issue of S.W.A.T.? If so, then you'll get an understanding of what officers in some places deal with on a daily basis. You have to always be stronger then the gangbangers. They only understand strength, espceially in their neighborhoods. And they will be the first to exploit any perceived weakness.

I think we all know where tetleyb comes down on RKBA. He's here sharing his experience in the Strategies and Tactics Forum. Let's not hold it against him because he works a rougher neighborhood then I do. Why don't you think about how he might handle things in a different environment before you condemn him?

Jeff

EricO
September 15, 2003, 06:08 PM
Cordex wrote, "If Jeff White pulled me over and explained that "No, Mr. Cordex, that rifle in your passenger compartment is illegal ... here, lemme give you a blanket to wrap it up in and you be careful, okay?", I'm going to come away from that encounter feeling pretty kindly towards Mr. White, and law enforcement in general. "

--Yes, Cordex. I too was impressed with White's response regarding the question. However, I want to mention something here. I don't recall if Jeff wrote about any of the circumstances of a stop like that. It all depends on the situation when you come upon it. He's describing a best case scenario, where the lawful pull over is a minor infraction perhaps, not something that would raise your caution level much. After running the plates they're clear. The citizen is pleasant and not nervous about anything. Sure, in that case I'll bet what he described happens all the time in areas where firearms can be transported in the car uncased. However, if the situation was different, I'll bet Jeff (hopefully being a tactically wise ofc) would treat it differently. Perhaps the stop was in a area known for illegal activity, at night, with the driver doing something erratically. Perhaps they're acting nervously. Now, do you think that he should deal with this the same as the previous example. Sure, here's a towel to cover that illegally carried handgun, take care now. And as he turns to walk back to his unit gets shot in the back. Remember that an officer can do many things after lawfully pulling over a vehicle, to his satisfaction due to the courts ruling that vehicles are not given the same expectation of privacy, and that they are mobile.

Just because an officer is being respectful of a citizen's rights doesn't mean that he should DROP HIS GUARD! Sarcasm on - Boy, he sure was a respectfull, nice, dead officer.

Jeff wrote, "
You have to always be stronger then the gangbangers. They only understand strength, espceially in their neighborhoods. And they will be the first to exploit any perceived weakness.

--Amen, and understood. I'm starting to think everyone lives in Mayberry! (a joke everyone, relax!) :-)


EricO

cordex
September 15, 2003, 06:23 PM
It all depends on the situation when you come upon it.
I agree completely.
Sorry, I must've missed that qualifier on tetleyb's original post.

spacemanspiff
September 15, 2003, 06:38 PM
--I believe this is covered already. Please read the entire discussion. When you say weapon in the vehicle, let me cover this. Yes, it is illegal to have a loaded weapon (let's just say handgun in this case) in your vehicle. There will be no felony stop or weapons pointed at you if you inform a LE officer that you are transporting a weapon/s in your vehicle. You will probably be asked as to the location of them in your vehicle (to determine if you are doing it properly) and if they are in a locked container, ammo separate. This is the law, and as such, anyone encountered not doing so, and with a weapon immediately accessible, maybe detained, patted down in a protective search, placed under arrest, etc. It all depends on the situation, the ind. officer, etc.
thanks for talking down to me. i did read the entire discussion before i posted. i asked that a point be reiterated. pardon me if its beneath you to have a man-to-man discussion.

why dont you go back and read the discussion yourself? the fact of the matter is, tetley is doing felony stops on anyone he comes across that has a firearm in their vehicle. now the law in cali may support that, but its interesting to note that tetley didnt say 'hey it sucks that i have to do this, but its just the way it is in this state'.
i'm not bashing anyone here. i'm merely pointing out the colors my eyes are seeing. i hope i'm wrong.

EricO
September 15, 2003, 06:59 PM
Spacemanspiff, pardon me if I stepped on your toes. I'm typing quickly and hitting send before I check it all out to see if it might affect someone wrong. There's no need to be so defensive though, I simply didn't think it was needed to go over something that was already posted. Look here, from barqfox's post above, read:
HANDGUNS

California Penal Code section 12025 does not prevent a citizen of the United States over 18 years of age who is not within any of the classes excepted from firearm possession and who resides or is temporarily in California from transporting by motor vehicle any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person if the firearm is unloaded and in a locked container.

As for tetleyB doing felony stops on anyone he comes across having or admitting to have a firearm in his vehicle, I don't believe what he wrote supports that. He wrote, "If you just had firearms in the truck/car after being pulled over and I saw it, or you told me about it, you would be pulled out at gun point. This would depend upon the officer. I'm considered to be a little more aggressive then most (at the sametime, I go home alive everynite too)." He does not specify if he saw it accessible, not in a container (which is illegal) or if the person admitted it was accessible and loaded. Don't read too much into this. Let's let him explain, if he jumps back into this fray.

EricO

Jeff White
September 15, 2003, 06:59 PM
EricO,

I saw the pickup pulling out of a gas station near the interstate. The only reason for the stop was the UUW in how the rifle was transported. The truck had either Wyoming or Montana plates (it's been several years ago, I don't recall, I can look it up on the computer if anyone is really interested). When I told dispatch that I was stopping the vehicle I mentioned that there was a high powered scoped rifle in the rack in the rear window. I had backup within about a minute, and I waited until backup arrived before approaching the truck. In the truck was an older man and his wife. I asked them both to step out of the truck ( I don't usually do that, but I wanted them away from the rifle while I talked with them). They were on their way to visit relatives somewhere East. There were no hits on the vehicle or the occupants and no one had a criminal history. The man told me he always carried the rifle there and didn't think about crossing state lines and other laws. He apologized and I told him that I personally had no problem with him carrying his rifle there, but other officers might. then I helped him stow the rifle behind the seat and let them go on their way. He seemed a bit surprised that any state could have laws like that. He's probably still cussing me for making him put his rifle behind the seat.

Now had I gotten all kinds of officer safety warnings when I ran the plate, my approach would have been exactly like tetleyb's. You have to deal with each instance as it happens. There is no boilerplate soluton for every situation.

Jeff

EricO
September 15, 2003, 07:05 PM
Jeff wrote, "Now had I gotten all kinds of officer safety warnings when I ran the plate, my approach would have been exactly like tetleyb's. You have to deal with each instance as it happens. There is no boilerplate soluton for every situation.""

--Exactly as I thought you'd say, which supports my stance on this whole issue. You're (like many others) a credit to the profession Jeff. Very professionally handled. People should notice that even though you didn't have any hits or flags on the plates, you still went through procedure, and had many systems in place before you even approached the vehicle.

EricO

John/az
September 15, 2003, 08:21 PM
It was this part that caught my attention:If you just had firearms in the truck/car after being pulled over and I saw it, or you told me about it

I believe that the telling is not justification for removing you from your car at gun-point. The fact that an individual would tell a police officer that they had a gun in the car is an admission of trust, and any "gun pointing" after that based soley upon that admission is a violation of that trust and is more damaging than benificial.

joebogey
September 15, 2003, 08:53 PM
I'm wondering why Eric takes this so personal, and tetley doesn't defend the statement.
Things that make you go HMMMMM.

chas_martel
September 15, 2003, 09:08 PM
OK, I really wanted get in on this post and ream Tet a new one.

But, I realized I'd just be wasting my time.

Seems like there are only two fundamental types people left in the U.S. of A. I think we all know what I mean by that.

I just hope people like Tet, and those that defend his "attitude", stay the hell
out of Texas.

Just remember "you" people would be very unhappy here. And it is hot year 'round.

RAY WOODROW 3RD
September 15, 2003, 09:08 PM
How a gunowner in NJ should respond: (my personal opinion)

Officer: Are there any drugs or firearms in the vehicle I should know about?

N.J. resident: No officer there are no drugs or ILLEGAL firearms in the vehicle.

Officer: May I search the vehicle?

N.J. resident: No sir. I do not consent to a search.

Reason:

All my firearms are legally owned and legally carried to and from the range. I will not give any information that will allow the officer to go on a "discovery hunt" thru my vehicle. I feel it is not the officer's business if they are legally transported, owned, and he cannot see them because they are cased and covered. He should not be worried about it. If he is pulling me over for another reason besides a traffic stop, he will find the cased guns soon enough. The mention of guns in this state is a NO, NO.

In the State of New Jersey, as soon as I say, "Yes officer they are in the back cased" to the gun question, I feel that I would be taken out of my vehicle, handcuffed, possibly arrested just for having the balls to own firearms, and my stuff taken into custody/destroyed. How is that for the feeling that police give to the adverage law abiding citizen!
(yea, I can fight to get them back in court but I do not have the tons of money it would take to do so and neither do many other NJ residents.)

There is an anti-gun mentality in a good portion of the police in this state. (Kind of sounds like the SF area doesn't it?) Not all police but a good majority. When dealing with firearms, the less information you give them the better off you will be. At least in this state.
(again, just my personal opinion.)

tetleyb
September 15, 2003, 09:09 PM
Wow, I just read all of the slams, etc against me. I didn't think what I posted was that out of sorts. Saying that, maybe I should explain further, down to the smallest detail.

About me: I run my police departments firearms program. 250 sworn police officers and I train them the same way I think. So, I guess that makes them ALL Nazi's. If you read what I wrote, I said something to the effect of: "If you drove a truck with a rifle, etc hanging from the back, you would get pulled over on a high risk stop." Not just by me, but by EVERYONE in my department.

I've attended in excess of three thousand hours of firearms training, around the world. This includes, British SAS, Delta Force, etc. This is above and beyond the police academy and in-service training. I was a US Marine many years ago; when I was thinner and had hair.

In California, 12031 PC-carrying a loaded firearm in public. It is a misdemeanor and, as such, is arrestable by sight. How do I, or any other police officer know what your going to do with said rifle or shotgun, hanging from your gun rack?

Think catch 22. The people who are bashing me, would bash me, if me or my officers didn't stop someone and they went out and shot somebody. Only to find out later, we knew about it.

I don't work for San Francisco PD. I work for a department in Alameda County. My department is very well known, in the area, for hard, aggressive police work. Now, I am NOT a liberal. I don't like liberal policies, etc. I am a republican who believes in the 2nd Amendment.

At the sametime, I am not going to be killed by some person who wants to die or wants to kill a cop for whatever reason. OFFICER SAFETY overrides any type of compassion, etc. Yes, I WILL go home at night, EVERY NIGHT. If it means pulling out law abiding people who have guns, at gun point, every night, I will. I don't know they are law abiding until then.

Other areas, like I said, in California treat these things differently. So does Atlanta, GA. Without slamming the south (it will come across this way), the south has, for the past 10 years, had more murdered police officers, then ALL OTHER regions in the US COMBINED. Look it up on the FBI website. The souths training is poor and so are their tactics. Its a fact. You can argue it all you like, however the facts are there.

Bottom line: Ask yourself this. Are you going to stand next to a car, knowing there is a gun in the car, and talk to someone like Little Bo Peep? Or are you going to take the necessary precautions to keep you and your family safe? I take the safe line.

If you have never had a gun stuck in your face or been involved in a shooting, I suggest you listen to people who have (yes, I have). Those are my points and my points only.

tetleyb
September 15, 2003, 09:16 PM
One more point I left out in my reply. Erico made a good point. Would I pull you out of the car if your firearm was locked in the trunk, in an approved container, as prescribed by 12026 PC? No, I would not.

My main intention was for a rifle/shotgun hanging in plain view or one immediately accessible by the person in the car.

EricO
September 15, 2003, 09:19 PM
In response to JoeBogey: Just keep on wondering. I'm wondering why you couldn't come up with something more important to say, other than to just stir the pot. HHhhmmmm...As for TetleyB, he probably just hasn't checked in with the forum yet, give him time.

Chas, you would be wasting your time, because TetllyB is enforcing the laws of this area, and you are not. It's simple, isn't it.

Ray Woodrow 3rd: I agree with you. Besides, if you are transporting your weapons legally, what do you have to fear? This has gone so far off base that I believe we've lost track of the orig. question Skunk posed. Sorry about that Skunk!

Edited to add: AAhhh, finally. Thanks for clearing this up TetleyB, I needed some backup. I'm glad to read that my assumption was correct.
EricO

Giant
September 15, 2003, 10:08 PM
Here in the peoples republic of Kali there is a provision in the state law protecting law abiding people on their way to or from a firing range from harassment by over eager LEO. The state law permits the transport of properly cased and unloaded firearms to and from a firing range. Also when one is going to or from a hunting event, to a gun shop or gun show legal transport can occur. In addition one is allowed to keep a firearm for self protection in their camp, this could include a pick up camper, or a travel trailer. All of this means one should not be pulled from their vehicle at gun point when one is in compliance with state law. If! events like that occurred with a frequency more than once, an attorney savvy in extracting hugh amounts of money from public agencies would proceed to earn his pay and it would be a lot!.

Having said that, Kali is a very extreme anti gun state. I know nearly all Leo in the ranks are fine people. But the facts show there are in the upper echelons of many Kali LEO agencies some of the most corrupt people on the planet. Many county sheriffs in Kali will issue concealed carry only to their friends, and to those who contribute money to the campaign war chest of the sheriff, and or to the fund of the sheriffs posse. There are also documented chiefs of police who have played similar games. Also, but not least the attorney general of Kali is a documented criminal, along with several top cops in the state dept. of justice firearms division. Look at events relating to AB 1044.

Documented! These folk are protecting each other, with some help from members of the state legislature and possibly the governor himself. (http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/). This site is part of several put up by Jim March. Thank you Jim! Start here and read for two or three days and one can see just how corrupt politics in Kali have become. Kali is imploding and the corrupt politicians can not suppress it. Change is coming soon, I would very much like to see the entire story on the front page of every newspaper in Kali.

Back to being pulled out of ones vehicle at gun point, I think the officer who wrote that is simply trying to show off and show us all how rough and tough he is. I would invite this officer to explain here what he really meant. It is possible some or all of us read what is not there.

EDIT: I posted this not realizing tetelyb had made a reply which better explains his views. My post stands as written other than this comment.

Giant

SkunkApe
September 15, 2003, 10:17 PM
How do I, or any other police officer know what your going to do with said rifle or shotgun, hanging from your gun rack?
-tetleyb

Come to think of it, how do I know what you are going to do with that pistol on you hip?

Bottom line: Ask yourself this. Are you going to stand next to a car, knowing there is a gun in the car, and talk to someone like Little Bo Peep?
-teleyb

That's what I usually do when you pull me over, because you do have a gun in the car, and and badge. Secretly, I'd like to tell you to quit harassing me and go catch some real criminals, but my better judgement prevails.

Protect and serve. Yeah, right.

pax
September 15, 2003, 10:24 PM
All right. I think this has been adequately discussed, and that nothing good can come of drawing the discussion out further.

TetleyB, thank you for coming back to explain and expound upon your first post. And thanks for not sniping back at the folks who sniped at you personally rather than discussing what you said.

pax

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