Police Anti 2nd amendment?


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marklbucla
September 15, 2003, 02:16 AM
I didn't want to hijack the other "Frasier" thread, but a friend of mine just quit the LAPD and said that he also thought that civilians should not be allowed to CCW, or maybe even own their own guns at all. He may be an exception because he quit because of unspecified "political" reasons, but how do MOST Law enforcment people feel about concealed carry or 2nd amendment rights?

Are there any Law enforcement divisions that are known for being Anti?

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Justin
September 15, 2003, 02:24 AM
From my (admittedly limited experience) with talking to LEO's, and seeing what is posted on this site and others, it seems that LEO's in more rural states tend to be more pro-gun than their coastal, big-city equivalents. It also seems to be split along rank- beat cops are more in tune with the plight of the average person than their deskbound superiors.

Of course that's a pretty broad generalization, YMMV.

Nightcrawler
September 15, 2003, 02:26 AM
Hard to say how "most" feel. How do most people in the military feel? How do most New Yorkers feel?

The compiled American police force represents a very large, very diverse group of people, whose political opinions are probably just as diverse as the general public.

This thread might get ugly.

Justin
September 15, 2003, 02:31 AM
This thread might get ugly.I'd really rather it didn't. I hate playing the part of thread killer.

Nightcrawler
September 15, 2003, 02:34 AM
Well, you know how these things go. So, just the same, I'm going to be staying out of this one. I've got enough strife in the real life without getting into arguments on the internet, too. *shrug*

Devonai
September 15, 2003, 02:34 AM
Justin and Nightcrawler have summed up the issue immediately. It simply depends on where you are and the experiences of the local PD. Beverly cops are nice, and we have a pro-gun chief. Boston cops are less nice, and the chief is most decidedly not pro-gun (although this probably has to do with pressure from the mayor's office more than anything).

Every single Trooper in the Massachusetts State Police I've spoken to on the subject is pro-gun. That's only half a dozen Troopers but they were a pretty fair representation of the population, being black, white, male and female. It should be no surprise, then, that I consider the MSP to be the most professional police organization in the Commonwealth.

Watchman
September 15, 2003, 05:39 AM
As a sherrifs deputy it has been my experience that the big city cops are more likey to be antigun than the rural...generally.

Living in Arkansas,rural Arkansas at that...I cant say that I actually know of any "antigun" cops. Ive only known two that even had any concerns about so called "assault "weapons, but they were only speaking of what they heard on TV. After some discussion,I think I changed their minds with the facts.

My sheriff is very progun...to the point that he speaks at the CCW classes that I teach. I'd be willing to bet that hes had won more votes by his commonsense approach to gun ownership than any other vote catching endeavors that he has had. He once had a retired military guy run against him and he was from the Northeast somewhere and chose to retire here. He made a campaign statement that "only the police and military should have guns. If he hever had a chance, he blew it right there. It was the biggest win in history for the sherrif, who got reelected by a landslide.

Most of the cops I worK with are deer hunters,duch hunters,varmint hunters, target shooters and collectors. Most understand that CCW holders are NOT part of the problem.

With that being said...the big city coppers in Little Rock appear to be more anti gun than most. I know several that are very progun, but it seems that the adminstration there is the typical bigcity asskissers that know whats better for us all than we do ourselves.

I would probably fit in the "pro gun" category. Too be honest with you, Im not even crazy about having to have a permit to exercise a right that is outlined in the Constitution as it seems to me to be an infringment of ones rights to have to pay for a right and submit oneself to an FBI background check just to prove innocence. To me the words "SHALL NOT" mean exactly that...but hey... Im simple. I tend to see things in black and white.

If you have a permit from any state...I will recognize it wether we have recipricol agreement or not. If I pull you over for something minor and you're on a trip and you are from out of state, I'll let it slide.Even if your're a local you're OK. In short, I wont mess with your gun..unless you are being stupid, then I'll get your stuff. Drunk Driving, reckless, warrants out, stuff like that will get your gun. But ...thats just me, Im not speaking for anyone else.

Mark Tyson
September 15, 2003, 07:33 AM
The cops who are anti-gun . . . I wonder if they keep their service weapons handy at home for home defense.

TEXAS LAWMAN
September 15, 2003, 08:00 AM
WATCHMAN, you've definitely got your head screwed on straight...

I am NOT AT ALL concerned about CHL/CCW holders in Texas or any other state. The only guns which concern me are those in the hands of non-law-abiding persons. And even then, it's the person, not the tool, that concerns me.

***** PLEASE NOTE: last week, the Missouri legislature OVERRODE the governor's veto of their right-to-carry legislation. Missouri is now the 36th state where law-abiding citizens can carry legally (persons in the other 14 states apparently have no constitutional right to carry a handgun). *****

Expect the crime rate in Missouri to go down!!!

greyhound
September 15, 2003, 08:00 AM
I stated before that I'm somewhat skeptical that beat cops are pro gun while the "political" top brass is anti.

Admittedly, a lot of that is shaped by the overall anti-gun attitude of my state. I'm sure it would be a lot different in the Souther/ rural western states.

hd1.
September 15, 2003, 08:05 AM
All I can add from personal experience is: The instructor who taught the Concealed Weapons course I attended was a local Lieutenant police officer. The gentlemen who assisted during the Range Time of the course were members of the local Swat Team. I came away from the course with the feeling that they welcome the idea of "the armed citizen" , providing that they are adequately trained.

NRA Instructor
September 15, 2003, 08:11 AM
The Law Enforcement Alliance of America has for a long time supported the 2nd Ammendment and the right to carry and have been active in the states that have recently passed new pro gun laws. They have also been active in helping to defeat the anti's.
As I recall they have reported that those who at the top of city police forces generally speak of being anti-gun but the majority of those who are out in the streets are pro-gun.

FPrice
September 15, 2003, 08:17 AM
"...but how do MOST Law enforcment people feel about concealed carry or 2nd amendment rights?"

I cannot speak for MOST Law Enforcement but in my local department more than a few officers are very vocal AGAINST most of the gun control laws in the People's Commonwealth. They do not like the cumbersome registration requirements, BUT are powerless to do anything about it. Our local Chief is not seen very much (at least in my circles) but routinely issues Class A "FOR ALL LAWFUL PURPOSES" permits.

DigMe
September 15, 2003, 08:24 AM
***** PLEASE NOTE: last week, the Missouri legislature OVERRODE the governor's veto of their right-to-carry legislation. Missouri is now the 36th state where law-abiding citizens can carry legally (persons in the other 14 states apparently have no constitutional right to carry a handgun). *****

You sure about that? I keep hearing that MO is the 45th state and there are now only 5 states left.

brad cook

greyhound
September 15, 2003, 08:59 AM
Since there's 52 states are you guys leaving out Alaska and Vermont, where you can carry with no permit whatsoever?

Otherwise, its "May issue" vs. "Shall issue". 36 states now have "Shall issue", where if you meet all the requirements, they have to give you a permit. "May issue" means that they can deny you for any reason even if you meet the qualifications.

Even with "May issue", there's a lot of diffenences in the states. My state, Maryland, is technically "May issue", even thought they do not give permits. Alabama, OTOH is "May issue" but pretty issue friendly.

And even in "Shall issue" the requirements can be quite different from state to state.

I think there is 5(?) states with no permits at all. (Illinois, Nebraska, Wisconsin, Kansas(?), Ohio(?))

synoptic
September 15, 2003, 10:01 AM
52 states? Did I miss something somewhere?

Norm357
September 15, 2003, 10:43 AM
My wife is an officer for a medium sized dept here in metro Atlanta, so I am around a lot of cops. With that said, I have never met an anti gun cop. Even her chief has been shooting with me.

Norm

Daniel T
September 15, 2003, 10:48 AM
52 states? Did I miss something somewhere?

I'm assuming that he's including Guam and Puerto Rico. Or maybe tossing in DC. Dunno.

Skunkabilly
September 15, 2003, 11:15 AM
IME most cops I've run to are pro-gun. Of course, I've sold shotguns to two cops, one of them groaned and rolled his eyes "OK...we'll register the shotgun if it'll help you sleep with a clear conscience" and the other one, a bird hunter, shook his head at the handguns in the glass case at the gun store and said he only had hunting shotguns, his only tactical weapon was his service pistol.

Then the rest of the cops I meet are at the range and that skews the sample a bit.

Then I've had cops look at me and say, "Just take a trip to Arizona!" when I complain about the assault weapons ban and think that 653k and SB23 is a shopping list.

I also know quite a few cops that are in the union and the union sponsors liberals (they seem to treat the employees better than some of the conservatives) that are anti-gun, but most of the cops in there are pro-gun and very conservative.

keyhole
September 15, 2003, 11:25 AM
LEO, pro-2nd.

And trying to get as many bought as I can, to keep the numbers up:D

For 6 years I had the only type of ccw permit that you can get in Kansas. As a licensed PI, it was the only way. Back into law enforcement, it's no problem. Bummer for everyone else. Maybe now that our neighbor Missouri has passed, maybe Kansas will follow suit?,,,,,,Naw, until we get a new governer,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

tetleyb
September 15, 2003, 11:36 AM
My opinion:

Normal everyday beat cops are generally pro-gun.

Administrators are generally anti-gun.

Of course these are just generalities and there are always exceptions.

TheFederalistWeasel
September 15, 2003, 12:29 PM
Pro-gun, Pro-carry former cop, returning to LE here!

who me
September 15, 2003, 05:10 PM
All the LEO's that I have talked to are pro 2nd all the way. I remember hearing a female LEO talking about safety and that her "safety" was the cold steel of a 9mm under her pillow. :)

PawDaddy
September 15, 2003, 05:19 PM
There is an LE officer who is retired here that has a gun shop with his son. He is very pro-carry,2nd ammendment. The local PC held a women's self defense class a few years ago. He urged the one's who would to get a gun and learn to shoot. He also offered other types of defensive tools for those who didn't feel comfortable with guns.

I think that the local sheriff is also pro- 2nd as well. Of course, I live in Alabama and I would think that everyone here is pretty much conservative minded.

I watch COPS regularly and most of the time I seem to detect a hint of anti from most of the cops on the shows. There was one occasion when an elderly lady called the police and as they arrived, they heard shots. She was firing her revolver out toward her shed where she thought that someone was breaking in. After the police determined that noone was there, they carried her gun back to her (they took it when they arrived) and the camera showed the cop reloading it for her and putting it back beside her bed. I thought that was pretty neat!

Slotback
September 15, 2003, 05:40 PM
I'm LEO, pro-2nd, pro-armed citizens. And I work with and am surrounded by rabid, and I mean rabid, pro-armed citizen LEO's where I'm at.

BowStreetRunner
September 15, 2003, 05:46 PM
some cops i have known are gun people themselves and have no problem with citizens having guns
there are a few i knew that were against concealed carry...but others supporting it....as others have said, it would be wrong to make a blanket judgement of all cops, as they are a pretty diverse group of thousands of thousands of people
BSR

greyhound
September 15, 2003, 06:43 PM
52 states? Did I miss something somewhere

No. I'm just an idiot who posted too early before he had his coffee. :D

Course now I remember there's only 50 states. How embarrasing!

Doctor Wu
September 15, 2003, 08:44 PM
As with everything, it varies from person to person.

einnor1040
September 15, 2003, 09:27 PM
a friend of mine just quit the LAPD and said that he also thought that civilians should not be allowed to CCW, or maybe even own their own guns at all.

You need to get another friend.

NRA Instructor
September 15, 2003, 10:32 PM
I just got this e-mail from one of the groups fighting for the right to carry in Wisconsin. The info he forwarded is an answer to "Police Anti 2nd ammendment?
From: Dick Baker <DBAKER@wi.rr.com>
Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 07:02:17 PM US/Central
To: website misc alert group 9 <DBAKER@wi.rr.com>
Subject: WCCA: A police officer's view on concealed carry

I received this email last evening and, after the anti-CCW statements made
by police chiefs at last Tuesday's hearings, thought some folks would like
to get the perspective from a real police officer.

*****************

My name is Mark Williamson, NRA member # 131841963. I am on the
Board of Directors for the Wisconsin Law Enforcement Training Officers
Association. We are a 800+ strong organization that has been around for 37
years and we train all of the police officers and recruits in the State of
Wisconsin at both the department level and the training academies at all of
the Technical Schools in the State of Wisconsin.
I just returned from our yearly fall conference that lasts three days
and it was up in Cable, Wisconsin at the Telemark Lodge. On the last day of
the conference, we are always addressed by Dan (not his real name), an
attorney for the State of Wisconsin's Department of Justice down in Madison.
Dan has always been a friend of our organization and is a fine man and a
very good attorney, so this letter is not written to defame him or his
character, rather to show how the police officer who works the "street"
feels about our 2nd Amendment Rights.
Dan did his introduction and then asked how we felt about the attempt
to get a concealed carry law passed. I felt as most of us did at that point
that Dan was against this being passed. Dan asked for a show of hands in
the crowd of about 130 trainers who "did not" want this to be passed. One
officer slightly and sheepishly raised his hand. Dan seemed stunned, so he
asked who was "for" this law being passed, and every hand in the crowd
except for the one dissenter raised their hands strongly towards the
ceiling.
Dan questioned several of us why we felt that this would be good,
and several of us stated in no uncertain terms that his opinion didn't
matter as it was already our right given to us by the Constitution of the
United States of America. We did however tell him why and how this would
work and be a good thing for everyone. I personally felt that Dan was
going to be very critical about the law being passed, but we shot him down
before he could get airborne.
A comment was made about all of the Chiefs of Police being against this
being passed. One of the comments from one of the officers in the crowd was
that the Chiefs are all "lapdogs of the Clinton administration and the Brady
people" to the loud ovation of the officers in the crowd. I have to admit
that even I was stunned that only one police officer was against the
concealed carry law, but I was certainly happy that it was this way. I just
thought you might like to hear this.
To Dan's credit, he did give us the chance to have an open forum on the
issue, but I would think that even he is surprised of the results.

Sincerely Yours,
Mark J. Williamson
LETOA Board of Directors

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