[oklahoma caveman]

personally im a traditionalist. i love a side hammer or flintlock muzzleloader. i hate in line with a passion and feel that they should only be legal during the normal rifle season unless you have bad eyes. and the new electric ignition muzzleloader:banghead::fire:i mean come on. anyways how do you all feel?

[Claude Clay]

necessity was the mother of invention in each period of time. and the materials at hand dictated how something would--or could not- be made. i like what was and how it became what is. each in its own time stood as a marvel of technology. choosing one 'style' of tool over another to expand or test your abilities is admirable. you hunt with a flintlock, i hunt at stop and shop.
as an aside.....sometimes something new or different is made available: use or dont use as suits your perception of self. and ya, i agree that a lot of 'improvements' are not.

[mykeal]

I have been shooting 'traditional' pistols, long guns and revolvers for over 30 years. I guess I'd say that I enjoy them the most. I also own, and shoot on occasion, some modern cartridge guns. While I enjoy them also, they're not as much fun as the 'traditional' guns. I also own one inline rifle, which gets used about as often as the cartridge guns.

I don't "hate" any guns, and I'm quite happy to let others shoot whatever they wish. It's just my opinion, but anyone who 'hates with a passion' an inanimate object needs some serious counseling.

[oklahoma caveman]

lol ok wrong choice of words. i dnt hate in lines, i simply disagree with them. is that any better? if thats what you are in to then good for you. in my state we have bow season, primitive season, and rifle season. what is primitive about an inline? the only reason i can see letting somebody use an inline for hunting is if they have a medical reason that they cant use a traditional style much as we have in OK for using a crossbow during bow season.

and this thread is only encompassing muzzleloaders. cartridge guns are a different breed.


but thank you for pointing out that i am apparently pysco and need help. that is just the type of response i was hoping for when i started this thread:rolleyes:

[Voodoochile]

I personally don't care to own any of the modern inline muzzleloaders, I did have one for a short period of time & don't get me wrong it shot pretty good for me but to me it didn't have that appeal, that feel like a more traditional muzzleloader has to me so when my close friend admired that Traditions Inline of mine so much that he wanted one I offered to make a trade, my old CVA Bobcat for the Traditions Persuit & we've been happy ever since.

As far as others being out in the woods with a modern inline muzzleloader, to each his/her own if they like the weapon, can shoot it proficiently & it brings the meat home for them then who am I to say that they are doing anything wrong, they shoot 777 pellets I shoot Black Powder, we both only have just 1 shot & other than that the only advantage they have over me is how they clean theirs compared to mine.

[BHP FAN]

I have had both real and replica Civil War arms,and as that's my interest in Black powder,I don't see me buying any inlines,unless they dig up one at a Civil War battlefield.

[Voodoochile]

Now don't forget BHP FAN us Virginia boys did have a few inline ignition style rifles that was a conversion of old Hall breachloaders.

[PRM]

I have a traditional style caplock H&R Springfield Stalker great gun - but most of my blackpowder long gun shooting is with a flintlock. Not may in-lines made with "firelocks," so I guess I am died in the wool traditional. Also, I only use black powder, no subs, just a personal preference.

[smee781]

I guess I like both because I enjoy a ROA pistol.;)

[mikebnem]

love black powder.
I have two pistols
and two rifles.

[Mike OTDP]

I'm a traditionalist. Have to be...you can't use in-lines in MLAIC competition.

[arcticap]

I like and use both types.
I usually target shoot with round balls but I hunt deer with an inline.
My state only has shotgun and muzzle loading firearms seasons for deer hunting on public lands.
And I support that both styles are legal to use here because the traditional only season was dying out and the inclusion of inlines & scopes helped to rejuvenate it. :)

[oklahoma caveman]

i guess under the circumstances it is understandable. imho not enough ppl, young and old alike, really respect the older firearms. gota have the new best thing.

as long as it helps to keep the shooting sports going then whatever it takes. i personally just dnt understand inlines. if i waant something like that il just get my single shot rifle out. if i want bp i get my tc greyhawk. and as soon as i get the funds i will be trading that stainless steel beauty in for a lyman great plains rifle

[cbrgator]

Newer the better.

[1858rem]

i have a cva inline .45 i never shoot anymore lol. i got it cause i was too impatient for the store to order in a new gun for me, which they wouldnt have done anyhow cause i was about 15-16, i really always wanted a Kentucky flintlock longrifle for rb, i found the rb so fascinating i went ahead and bought the powder and a Lyman mold... (that didnt have handles so i improvised HOT lol) and had everything set.... and blew my money on the inline cause i kinda figured if i came home with the gun mom an dad would be ok with me havin a gun of my own, cause they didnt really approve of the idea lol:D. it wasnt a waste, i went out every day after school and shot it till dark, eventually getting a REAL mold for it and making my own powder and such... but i still wanted the long rifle, so about a year later i bought the traditions flintlock kentucky rifle kit and finished the gun and loved it for a few months till i got sooo pissed with trying to make pryodex(the only available powder round here) work in a flinter i gave up on it. later i decided to give it another shot... buying a 360g mine mold cause the handle less mold was ridiculesly difficult to operate...then i gave upon it again because of pyrodex. afterwards i got my 1858 Remington which i have nonestop been shooting since i got it about a year and a half ago, well, unless i run outta powder anyhow. it is lots of fun and it traditional/inline crossover kinda split.:cool:

[BHP FAN]

''Now don't forget BHP FAN us Virginia boys did have a few inline ignition style rifles that was a conversion of old Hall breachloaders...''
So did my Carolina and Texas ancestors!I wish I did! I been eyeballin' that one that Fall Creek Sutlery had for awhile...so many guns,so little money.

[Smokin_Gun]

Plain and simple (for the most part) staight Traditionalist. Timeline Rev Shooter from 1836 - 1863 C&B's + 1860's Conversion frenzy up till Colt got smart and put a top strap on a Rev in 1873...I do own an ROA 20th Century C&B that a lover of all the previous C&B Revs Bill Ruger combined into it can't help but like.

SG

[Shultzhaus]

I have 3 C&B revolvers. 1 Remington, and 2 Colts. Use only 3F Goex BP, and round ball. I also have 1 Flintlock - use only 2f BP and patched RB. I do cheat a little with 1 CVA inline, which I use 777 and sabots, just for a paper puncher. (I have a long distance bet going with some club members) Both rifles have fiber op sights, I don't own a scope. I guess that makes me 4/5 traditional, and 1/5 mod.

[madcratebuilder]

From .22 to M1A's I shoot them all every chance I get. Out of about forty firearms, seven are BP. Winter time in the NW is indoor range time so the BP gets a rest. If you want to shoot an in-line...go for it. The one BP I don't have is a flinter, hope to remedy that soon.

[gru556]

So many guns so little time

[LTB15J]

well, my current collection suggests i am more of a technology based person. but the more i pick up classic style rifles the more i enjoy them. i should start expanding my collection

[sundance44s]

I`ve always felt like I was born in the wrong century ..just a hard core Traditionalist ....But thats just me ...anyone who feels more at home with the more non traditional fire arms ...so be it ..what ever floats yer boat is fine with me ...just be safe , stay sharp with your choice of wepons and keep yer powder dry .

[moooose102]

give me technology anyday!:D if it was allowed in this state, i would have bought one of those in-lines that can shoot smokeless powder. but in michigan you have to use bp, or bp subs. so it didnt make any sense to me to spend the extra maney for one. i really do not like the smell of real bp. i know a lot of you guys do, and that is fine. but to me, it is in the same class as deisel exhaust fumes. yeeeuck!:barf::barf::barf:triple 7 isn't to bad. and i have yet to try pyrodex. which i will next time i shoot. but, it gets me extra time hunting, so i can live with it.:) after all, it is only one shot, i hope!:evil:

[.38 Special]

Guess I don't really understand inlines. When I want a modern gun I buy a modern gun. Inlines have always sort of struck me as buying an F150 but insisting it be equipped with a Model A engine.

[oklahoma caveman]

+1 38 special. thats my take on it. if i want modern il get one of my cartridge guns out. if i want primitive i go for old school iron sights

[wolfe28]

I'm in the traditional camp. I love the look and feel of the classic front-stuffers. I have metalic cartrige guns for any time I want to go "modern". Don't have anything against in-lines, they just arn't for me.

D

[Mr. 16 gauge]

i hate in line with a passion and feel that they should only be legal during the normal rifle season unless you have bad eyes

..I think that they should only be legal during rifle season, even if you have bad eyes!

give me technology anyday! if it was allowed in this state, i would have bought one of those in-lines that can shoot smokeless powder. but in michigan you have to use bp, or bp subs. so it didnt make any sense to me to spend the extra maney for one

So much for a "primative" season.....using a caseless centerfire rifle. It amazes me the number of in-line users who think it's O.K. to use a in-line during black powder season, but go ballistic and have a hissy fit when they want to allow crossbows during bow season....main argument: it's too 'easy':scrutiny:

Now don't forget BHP FAN us Virginia boys did have a few inline ignition style rifles that was a conversion of old Hall breachloaders.

Well, if you dig one up from a civil war battlefield that has a synthetic stock, 3x9 variable scope, fiberglass ramrod, uses 209 primers for ignition, and shot smokeless powder to propel a jacketed bullet with a plastic sabot, then I might, might change my position on the subject, but until then, I am a traditionalist when it comes to a muzzleloading season.:cuss:

[mykeal]

It amazes me the number of in-line users who think it's O.K. to use a in-line during black powder season, but go ballistic and have a hissy fit when they want to allow crossbows during bow season
Who said anything about crossbows???? I have seen exactly zero posts in this thread (or anywhere else for that matter) that meet your criteria for amazement (inline users having hissy fits about crossbows).
Well, if you dig one up from a civil war battlefield that has a synthetic stock, 3x9 variable scope, fiberglass ramrod, uses 209 primers for ignition, and shot smokeless powder to propel a jacketed bullet with a plastic sabot, then I might, might change my position on the subject, but until then, I am a traditionalist when it comes to a muzzleloading season.
You need to get a handle on reality. Nobody here was trying to get you to 'change your position' - they simply stated theirs, and you don't seem to be able to handle that.

Which 16 gauge bp smoothbore do you shoot?

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Who said anything about crossbows???? I have seen exactly zero posts in this thread (or anywhere else for that matter) that meet your criteria for amazement (inline users having hissy fits about crossbows).

I was speaking in generalities here....there is another site where the 'argument' against making MI muzzleloading season a truly primative season is because "you gotta go with the times; can't stop technology; in-lines were used in the civil war, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah.......and these same people have a hissy fit when it affects 'their' bowhunting because they don't want crossbows allowed (you can use the same arguments for procross bow as they use for pro inline, but they don't want to hear it). Michigan's "muzzleloading" season was meant to be a primative season; not a "we gotta kill deer at 200+ yards using a caseless rifle" season. I get tired of hearing 'those old muzzleloaders only wound deer", and then have the same A-hole tell me about 'the one that got away' because he flubbed a 200 yard shot using a pistol bullet in a sabot!:fire:

You need to get a handle on reality. Nobody here was trying to get you to 'change your position' - they simply stated theirs, and you don't seem to be able to handle that.

Get a handle on your own reality....Michigan's season should be primitive: no glass sights, loose powder, patched round ball or solid lead conical, and side lock using flint, cap, or matchlock ignition.....nothing else. The 'reality' is that the DNR has allowed the bastardization of this season for two long.

For the record, I don't have a 16 gauge BP smoothbore....I have a 20 gauge smoothbore flintlock trade musket, as well as a .54 cal caplock Hawken.

[John Wayne]

As has been stated before, the appeal for me lies in the nostalgia.

If I want modern performance, I shoot modern cartridge arms.

[oklahoma caveman]

Who said anything about crossbows???? I have seen exactly zero posts in this thread (or anywhere else for that matter) that meet your criteria for amazement (inline users having hissy fits about crossbows

actually i believe i did. in reference to OK regs. you can only use a crossbow if you have a disability that prohibits your using a recurve or compound bow. i feel inline use should be regulated the same. i mean it is called "primitive" season for a reason. now mygrandma is a parapalegic who uses an inline. its easier for her to use and helps because she cant see irons to well with her bifocals. that to me is understandable. but otherwise i see no reason to be allowed to use them during primitive season.

[elmerfudd]

If modern muzzleloaders were just quirky anachronisms, then I would like them. I think it's kind of cool when a bunch of enthusiasts try to go back and reinvent the wheel using modern technology. The real problem is that people are doing it not because of any love of muzzleloading or history, but simply because they want to take advantage of any loophole they can find in the hunting regulations. The traditional seasons were created so that hunters could hunt with traditional weapons, not so that we could reverse engineer a Remington 700. We've already got the modern seasons for modern weapons and if someone wants to hunt with a scoped in-line that's when he should do it.

[Matt-J2]

While we're here, I don't see why you should be allowed to use any sort of firearm for any season labelled as 'Primitive'. Should be only for those using things like spears and atl-atls. There's nothing primitive about gunpowder.

[MICHAEL T]

I love my Ky flintlock and I want my bow with out pullys also. Real arrows with feathers and no silly trigger . That what fingers for. :D

[oklahoma caveman]

actually there is. read the art of war. research for yourself and see when bp was invented. bp is primitive

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

personally im a traditionalist. i love a side hammer or flintlock muzzleloader. i hate in line with a passion and feel that they should only be legal during the normal rifle season unless you have bad eyes. and the new electric ignition muzzleloader

I'm not a big traditionalist, but I too think that that all the modern technology should be banned during traditional season. I'm absolutely with you on that one. The traditional season should be traditional, not an end run around traditional.

Now if it's legal, I'm gonna use it. But it shouldn't be legal. It's ridiculous (scopes, saboted conical bullets - jacketed, no less, inlines, plastic stocks, powder pellets) - but, I'm gonna take full advantage. :)

[Quickdraw Limpsalot]

Never fired an in-line muzzleloader, most likely never will. I don't care what other people use, but personally I don't care for them. It's kinda like cutting a piece of cake, then taking everything except the piece you cut... because, well... the rest of the cake is a "piece" too, right?

Inlines load from the muzzle too, right?

So does a mortar.

[dirty dave]

I just love to smoke them all.Have a brown bess copy to a knight inline,many revolvers and just as many single shots.most of what I shoot and hunt with these days,have pump shotguns and bolt rifles but shoot smoke poles for eveything I hunt now.

[nicholst55]

Traditionalist; preferably flintlocks. But... the effective range and accuracy of them newfangled inlines has got me to thinking..... :rolleyes:

[Lt. B]

Wowww....Quite a few things come to mind here. I get the feeling that traditionalists look down their nose at the inline guys. Thats just silly. The majority of your "flintlocks" arent really traditional now are they. They were manufactured with the latest in modern Tech to mass produce a safer product. The ignition systems.....are they really traditional?? And if they are ..so what?? From my perspective as an outsider who admires both old and new, or is it newold modified or whatever....Muzzle loading requires the user to develop a whole different set of skills. How much powder? what grain bullet? how far? You have to have a well practiced loading procedure to find acuracy with either. One or two shots are all you have...It has to count.I would advise you NOT to lobby against your brother in arms or you may just find yourself being lobbied against. I like muzzlloaders because of the FREEDOM. How much longer do you think the lefties are going to let us keep em anyway? For Gods sake dont be creating lines where they dont need to exist.

[Matt-J2]

actually there is. read the art of war. research for yourself and see when bp was invented. bp is primitive

Irrelevant. I don't consider BP to be old enough to constitute being primitive. It should be banned from any hunting season labeled as such. So should metal broadheads on arrows, and any bow made with modern materials like fiberglass or plastic.

[Voodoochile]

While we're here, I don't see why you should be allowed to use any sort of firearm for any season labelled as 'Primitive'. Should be only for those using things like spears and atl-atls. There's nothing primitive about gunpowder.

In one form I see your point but again I don't.
Granted Primitive weapons are what you describe but then again do you go out to hunt say a Bear with just a rock, that too is considered primitive but wait most areas do have a Archery season where you can use such weapons if you do desire.


Irrelevant. I don't consider BP to be old enough to constitute being primitive. It should be banned from any hunting season labeled as such. So should metal broadheads on arrows, and any bow made with modern materials like fiberglass or plastic.

So 1000 years isn't old enough?
If you go against one group of brethren because of the gear that they use, eventually you'll be all alone & there will not be any hunting allowed which is what the Anti's want.

To me I think it's a good thing that there is some modern technology involved with both Archery & Muzzle loading because who knows maybe some of these people that start out with the more modern gear will try & find that they like the more matured gear of our fore fathers, at least it does bring in more new people into our sport which in the long goal will help keep the Anti's at bay so that our next generation may be able to enjoy our sport as well, granted like I mentioned earlier I prefer my more traditional side lock muzzle loader over a inline but that is my preference & as Archery goes & do like both my Recurve & my Compound bow for hunting & target.

[Harve Curry]

I use both. I only own a Hawken and a Zouave but have been around and used quite a few inlines. When your hunting big game I don't have a problem with modern projectiles in a traditional muzzleloader either. I've seen them make the difference between wounded & got away vs dead on it's tracks. It's good to see progress and new inventions even in muzzloaders. I think inline muzzloaders first appeared around the 1790's. A good rifleman with a iron sighted muzzleloader is limited to about 150 yards, scoped inline is limited to about 300 yards. Some places out west you may never see a shot less then 200 yards.Use what you like, but leave the noisey ATV's in camp miles from the hunting ground:).

[Matt-J2]

So 1000 years isn't old enough?

Quite frankly, no. Now also consider that while BP was developed in the 9th century(so more like 1200years old), firearms weren't developed until pretty late in the 13th century. We're certainly not talking about any of those here, either, so skip ahead again. In the early 16th century we see rifled barrels invented, though not in common use yet. It's not until nearly the middle of the 17th century that we see even the 'lowly' flintlock developed. So we're not even talking about 1200 year old technology, we're talking, at most, less than 400 year old technology. Given the more common use of the caplock system, which really came about in the early half of the 19th century, we're looking at less than 200 year old tech. I think at this point we're well beyond primitive. I will mention only in passing the modern materials used in even these reproductions, as I treat it merely as a point to consider, not as anything actually relevant. Especially in light of this:

If you go against one group of brethren because of the gear that they use, eventually you'll be all alone & there will not be any hunting allowed which is what the Anti's want.

You do, in fact, understand the purpose of my posts on this matter, even the above portion of this post. Point 1, is as you say above. Point 2 is that if you're going to put yourself out and complain about tool X being used in X season, be prepared to meet the same sort of response. Especially for a season with a ridiculous naming convention such as 'primitive'. That's really my only peeve with it.

[.38 Special]

Ah, but the counterpoint is that "primitive" seasons came about on the premise that hunting season can be opened earlier for a select group of folks using less capable weapons -- which ostensibly results in a smaller "harvest". Human nature being what it is, inlines came about as an "end run" around the rules. So there are folks who are a bit bugged that the inline crowd gamed the rules.

On a separate note, I sense a bit of superiority from the inline crowd -- not on this thread, but in the field -- based upon the idea that their guns are "better". My personal experience has been that few of these folks have ever owned a traditional gun, and few of those that have knew how to manage them. I am sure I am not the only flintlock shooter who has ever been annoyed by the "That there flintlock goes off what, half the time? And even when it does, it's not like those old guns could hit anything!" inline ignorance at the local range. Combined with the "300 yards" type silliness, it's enough to turn a fellow into a retro grouch.

[.38 Special]

FWIW, though, I have met my share of "superior" traditionalists too. I have a capgun that my grandfather made about a thousand years ago, and it means a lot to me. And I once had a fellow with a nice custom flinter sneer at me and make some comment about getting a "real" gun. I carried a matchlock to that range for a month afterward, hoping to get my revenge, but he never showed up. :p

[Voodoochile]

Quite frankly, no. Now also consider that while BP was developed in the 9th century(so more like 1200years old), firearms weren't developed until pretty late in the 13th century. We're certainly not talking about any of those here, either, so skip ahead again. In the early 16th century we see rifled barrels invented, though not in common use yet. It's not until nearly the middle of the 17th century that we see even the 'lowly' flintlock developed. So we're not even talking about 1200 year old technology, we're talking, at most, less than 400 year old technology. Given the more common use of the caplock system, which really came about in the early half of the 19th century, we're looking at less than 200 year old tech. I think at this point we're well beyond primitive. I will mention only in passing the modern materials used in even these reproductions, as I treat it merely as a point to consider, not as anything actually relevant. Especially in light of this:

Point taken but when you stated BP & not a specific weapons type I had to generalize, & granted to many that do own these newer muzzle loaders do not either know how to get these more traditional rifles to function like they want or really appreciate the history of how these pieces were developed.


If you go against one group of brethren because of the gear that they use, eventually you'll be all alone & there will not be any hunting allowed which is what the Anti's want.
You do, in fact, understand the purpose of my posts on this matter, even the above portion of this post. Point 1, is as you say above. Point 2 is that if you're going to put yourself out and complain about tool X being used in X season, be prepared to meet the same sort of response. Especially for a season with a ridiculous naming convention such as 'primitive'. That's really my only peeve with it.

Well unfortunately many states call it Primitive be it muzzle loader or Archery because of some burocrats {sp} that do understand the meaning of the word but use the word to make it simpler for them to generalize the weapons being used for that particular season, in one way I understand your point but I've learned to let it flow since our world is changing every minute & to argue over the use of a particular word instead of just enjoying the time in the woods makes for a shorter life that can be enjoyed.

[Matt-J2]

I let it flow too. It's just an annoyance with semantics at this point, not somehting that actually bothers me. Posting was too much fun though, so I found it hard to stop once started. :)

[grey8833]

I shoot a Hawken and Colt Walker, own an old Remington Automatic. I think the BP guns are a lot more fun to shoot, but frankly, I don't care what you shoot (really, whatever you have >>> .22 plinker to a .50 cal. sniper rifle) as long as you back the 2nd and vote.

[4v50 Gary]

I'm a traditionalist and wouldn't buy a new fangled inline but wouldn't turn my nose up on shooting one, accepting one as a gift or buying one DIRT cheap. Personally, I like the Billinghurst inline that another member posted a pic of at this forum.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

the counterpoint is that "primitive" seasons came about on the premise that hunting season can be opened earlier for a select group of folks using less capable weapons -- which ostensibly results in a smaller "harvest". Human nature being what it is, inlines came about as an "end run" around the rules. So there are folks who are a bit bugged that the inline crowd gamed the rules.


I sense a bit of superiority from the inline crowd -- not on this thread, but in the field -- based upon the idea that their guns are "better". My personal experience has been that few of these folks have ever owned a traditional gun, and few of those that have knew how to manage them. I am sure I am not the only flintlock shooter who has ever been annoyed by the "That there flintlock goes off what, half the time? And even when it does, it's not like those old guns could hit anything!" inline ignorance at the local range. Combined with the "300 yards" type silliness, it's enough to turn a fellow into a retro grouch.


HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!......somebody finally freakin' gets it! A modern "muzzleloader using smokeless powder and a jacketed bullet IS NOT PRIMATIVE!!!!! It's just a modern rifle without a brass case, and has NO business in a primative season, even if it loads from the muzzle! It's like the morons that I have to deal with duck hunting who buy hevishot and shoot at ducks at 100+ yards away, because they don't want "the other guy" to get any.:banghead:

[Harve Curry]

The High Road all the way right?.

[arcticap]

Everyone has a different definition of what's modern and traditional.
For me, the crossover line is marked by a rifled barrel since the effective range of a smoothbore is about 75 yards. So rifled gun barrels are all pretty much equal.
A cheap inline usually shoots worse than an expensive traditional gun because so many traditional guns have double target triggers and very long, expensive barrels. It's hard to argue that a precision rifled & air gauged long gun barrel somehow resembles primitive or traditional technology.
Civil War sniper rifles like the Whitworth represented cutting edge barrel and projectile technology that is still superior to modern inlines.
If that Civil War level of technology isn't accepted as being traditional, then that brings us back to the rifled barrel verses the smoothbore.
In my sincere opinion, once the rifled barrel is accepted as being traditional, then every rifled barrel needs to be considered as being relatively equal & traditional.
That measurement of "practical equality" is part of what America is premised upon. One person might drive a Volkswagon and another a Cadillac, but it's nearly universal that every American drives a car that takes them from point A to point B while sharing the same public road system. If the cars weren't considered to be equal then they wouldn't be allowed to share the same road because it would be unsafe to do so.
Since the universal ownership of relatively equal cars is one of those hallmarks of American society, then so is the use of various types of muzzleloaders since mostly everyone uses one of the relatively equal rifled barrels.
I really appreciate the opportunity to explain my personal perspective about the unnecessary rift between modern and traditional muzzle loader hunting.
Whether it's all defined as modern or traditional doesn't matter, they're all basically the same & equivalent.
IMO the use of modern rifled barrels makes the proverbial glass of water to be more than 1/2 full. ;)

[mykeal]

Articap - I don't know if the purpose of this thread was to re-debate the inline rifle in muzzleloading season thing again or not, but even if it was I did not intend to join that discussion as I'm of the opinion it matters little what we say about it. However, I felt it worthwhile to comment on your metaphor.

First of all, the definition of what's traditional is entirely arbitrary; one could pick any change (not necessarily even advancement) in technology to represent the passage from 'traditional' to 'modern' and thus provoke debate. I won't quibble with your rifled barrel milestone, but it is perhaps a bit convenient to progression of your argument.

Second, the automobile metaphor just doesn't work. Yes, both a VW and a Cadillac are capable of performing the basic transportation mode on the highway. So are the BMW Isetta and a fully loaded triple bottom Peterbuilt diesel tractor-trailer rig, but any equality between them is clearly illusory. Both are allowed to share the same road, safety notwithstanding. True equality requires that you would choose either, without prejudice, to perform your basic transportation function, but that's not what would happen in any rational decision process.

So, is every rifled barrel truly, or even relatively, equal, using that metaphor? I think not.

Defining the 'traditional' firearm requires establishing a collection of physical characteristics, and perhaps even some performance specifications. I've not yet come up with what I feel is an adequate definition, and I feel that whatever I settle on will generate significant debate, not because it can't be done but because what the real debate is about is something entirely different: who gets to hunt with what during this special season.

[John Wayne]

While I do stand on the traditional side of the argument, I will say that not allowing rifled barrels would greatly increase the number of game animals needlessly wounded or lost due to poor accuracy.

[mykeal]

Picking a nit: I do not agree with the use of the adverb, "greatly'. That's an insult, unintended I'm sure, to bp hunters. It suggests that we would not take the time or trouble to determine the accuracy of our guns at various ranges and just keep banging away at any range regardless of how accurate they were. I do not believe that's how we, as a group, hunt. I believe that there are a much higher percentage of bp hunters who properly prepare for the hunt and conduct themselves in an appropriate manner than the general population of centerfire hunters, and if we were restricted to smoothbore long guns we (at least the vast majority of us) would learn how accurate they were and use them accordingly. There would certainly be a few bozos who would not, and thus a few needlessly wounded animals, but absolutely not a 'greatly increased' number. You owe us an apology.

[Dave McCracken]

I started shooting BP in the 60s. Pop was a Civil War Centennial re enactor and I caught the bug at first Manassas.

As for the new fangled stuff, I prefer sidehammer cap rifles for hunting, 1858 replicas for pistol fun, and will someday have a SxS ML shotgun.

Just because....

As for what the next shooter uses, I care not one whit as long as they're safe.....

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

"Primitive":

–adjective
1. being the first or earliest of the kind or in existence, esp. in an early age of the world: primitive forms of life.
2. early in the history of the world or of humankind.
3. characteristic of early ages or of an early state of human development: primitive toolmaking.
4. Anthropology. of or pertaining to a preliterate or tribal people having cultural or physical similarities with their early ancestors: no longer in technical use.
5. unaffected or little affected by civilizing influences; uncivilized; savage: primitive passions.
6. being in its earliest period; early: the primitive phase of the history of a town.
7. old-fashioned: primitive ideas and habits.
8. simple; unsophisticated: a primitive farm implement.
9. crude; unrefined: primitive living conditions.
10. Linguistics.
a. of or pertaining to a form from which a word or other linguistic form is derived; not derivative; original or radical.
b. of or pertaining to a protolanguage.
c. of or pertaining to a linguistic prime.
11. primary, as distinguished from secondary.
12. Biology.
a. rudimentary; primordial.
b. noting species, varieties, etc., only slightly evolved from early antecedent types.
c. of early formation and temporary, as a part that subsequently disappears.
–noun
13. someone or something primitive.
14. Fine Arts.
a. an artist of a preliterate culture.
b. a naive or unschooled artist.
c. an artist belonging to the early stage in the development of a style.
d. a work of art by a primitive artist.
15. Mathematics.
a. a geometric or algebraic form or expression from which another is derived.
b. a function of which the derivative is a given function.
16. Linguistics. the form from which a given word or other linguistic form has been derived, by either morphological or historical processes, as take in undertake.
[Origin: 1350–1400; ME (n. and adj.) (< MF primitif) < L prīmitīvus first of its kind. See prime, -itive]



—Related forms
prim·i·tive·ly, adverb
prim·i·tive·ness, prim·i·tiv·i·ty, noun

—Synonyms 1, 2. prehistoric, primal, primary, primordial, original, aboriginal, antediluvian, pristine. See prime.

I'll accept Matt's thesis up to a point - but see definition #1 (presumably the preferred definition) -referencing "of it's kind". So when used in reference to a "gun", not a "weapon", then the earliest "gun" of it's kind would be a 14th century "gonne", not a 17th-18th century musket, let alone a 19th century Davy Crockett muzzleloading rifle. So it depends upon whether the season is a "primitive weapon" season or a "primitive gun" season, given the relative definition of "primitive".

But when using other acceptable definitions (more absolutist, in terms of the history of mankind's and civilization's evolution) of "primitive", then Matt is correct - should be spears, atlatl's, or perhaps very primitive self-bows.

So, bottom line, as is usually the case, the answer is, "it depends", but it would appear that even under the more restrictive, relative to the tool in questin, definition #1, a rifled gun is not "primitive".

Therefore, the solution is to (a) either call the season "traditional" instead of "primitive", or (b) limit everyone to 14th century technology "gonnes":


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Firearms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_warfare#China

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070530173724AAI84Gp

You must also present the wildlife department with a video of your home lab where you mixed up the sulphur, saltpeter, and charcoal. :p

And I certainly don't see why you cannot use a crossbow during this primitive season, as I believe crossbows predated guns. :confused:

[alsaqr]

Inline muzzleloaders have been around since percussion ignition was invented. They were just not popular.

[John Wayne]

Picking a nit: I do not agree with the use of the adverb, "greatly'. That's an insult, unintended I'm sure, to bp hunters. It suggests that we would not take the time or trouble to determine the accuracy of our guns at various ranges and just keep banging away at any range regardless of how accurate they were. I do not believe that's how we, as a group, hunt. I believe that there are a much higher percentage of bp hunters who properly prepare for the hunt and conduct themselves in an appropriate manner than the general population of centerfire hunters, and if we were restricted to smoothbore long guns we (at least the vast majority of us) would learn how accurate they were and use them accordingly. There would certainly be a few bozos who would not, and thus a few needlessly wounded animals, but absolutely not a 'greatly increased' number. You owe us an apology.

I am myself a blackpowder hunter. I shoot a sidelock percussion .50 rifle with conical bullets and iron sights.

I am not suggesting smoothbore hunters are less responsible, I am stating a fact that smoothbore rifles are less accurate than rifled ones. Those who willingly hunt with smoothbores are likely to know their limitations.

My point was that if you restrict hunting seasons to only smoothbores with traditional ignition systems, lots of people who formerly shot and were proficient with modern in-lines will be forced to use smoothbores and will do so with a lesser degree of accuracy and as a result, wound more animals or make less clean kills.

[mykeal]

My point was that if you restrict hunting seasons to only smoothbores with traditional ignition systems, lots of people who formerly shot and were proficient with modern in-lines will be forced to use smoothbores and will do so with a lesser degree of accuracy and as a result, wound more animals or make less clean kills.

We are apparently in violent agreement about one thing: 'greatly increased' is not appropriate.

I still have a problem with 'lots of people who formerly shot and were proficient with modern in-lines". I teach the muzzleloading section of the national hunter safety education course and work as a volunteer range safety officer and instructor during our club's deer hunt sight-in period. I do not find the vast majority of in-line users to be the kind of people who would simply go back out in the woods and shoot at the same ranges with smoothbores as they would with rifled guns. They're not stupid - they know smoothbores are not as accurate at long ranges, and they would learn the characteristics of their guns and use them appropriately. I stand by my previous statements:

I believe that there are a much higher percentage of bp hunters who properly prepare for the hunt and conduct themselves in an appropriate manner than the general population of centerfire hunters, and if we were restricted to smoothbore long guns we (at least the vast majority of us) would learn how accurate they were and use them accordingly. There would certainly be a few bozos who would not, and thus a few needlessly wounded animals, but absolutely not a 'greatly increased' number. You owe us an apology.

[kBob]

Excuse my ignorance, but I was under the impression that a well developed smooth bore load and patch was as accurate as the common Fostor type slugs in an actual smooth bore shot gun.

As this was the onlything allowed or available firing a single solid shot in some areas of the US for many years I got to wonder how many deer were wounded and lost to all those smoothbore shotguns.

Of course I bristle at calling a rifled arm that shoots plastic saboted jacketed hollow point bulles and like as not has a scope a "shotgun"

WHen primative seasons were started "traditional" BP guns were pretty much all there were.

I think the modern designs and modern scopes go against the spirit of the original idea of BP seasons.

-Bob Hollingsworth

[Loyalist Dave]

Maybe we should reword "primitive" hunting season to "obsolete black powder firearm" season?

OK maybe not, as I probably just opened a whole new can of wording worms.



LD

[theotherwaldo]

I like 'em all. They're fun to shoot, fun to compare, and challenging to shoot well.

Components count, though. A matchlock with a precision-rifled barrel will outperform the newest inline, if that inline is burdened with a poorly-made barrel.

I may never hunt again with a muzzle-loader. Heck, I may never hunt again, period! It's a pain to hunt in Texas.

I'm still going to keep collecting and shooting the broadest selection of firearms that I possibly can. It's all good.

[mikecronin63]

I own guns of various types, but I've found that my favorite is a traditional .50 percussion, a T/C White Mountain Carbine. I like it for two reasons. The first is just because I like it and enjoy fiddling around with loads and so on. The second is because there is a separate muzzle loader season. I hunt on public land and the woods are pretty crowded during the regular firearms season.

Some of the new ideas used in inlines are pretty ingenious. My only problem with them is simply that if they make them too efficient and too easy to use, the woods will be just as crowded during the muzzle loading season as they are in the regular season.

My state allows anyone over 65 to use a crossbow. I may have to look into that if modern inlines become too popular.

[Harve Curry]

How about a rechargable battery operated ignition? Solar panel built into the stock to keep it charged up. A shaped charge chamber withe the charge fitting it with a glow plug at the rear center of it. Very efficient and no lock time.

[madcratebuilder]

As for what the next shooter uses, I care not one whit as long as they're safe.....

I can live with that.

With the outcome of the election, gun owners, shooters, hunters, collectors need to stand together and protect our 2nd amendment rights. Save the bickering for around the camp fire.

[SE-Okla.shooter]

I have too many (according to my wife) traditional flintlocks and percussion rifles and pistols. I do have and like a 50 cal. scout pistol and a 54 cal. scout rifle. Since they have a exposed hammer I consider them traditional.

[.38 Special]

As for what the next shooter uses, I care not one whit as long as they're safe.....

Agreed. I don't "get" it, but that's not terribly important.

[gotgcoalman]

#55
John Wayne
Senior Member



Join Date: 12-11-07
Posts: 104 While I do stand on the traditional side of the argument, I will say that not allowing rifled barrels would greatly increase the number of game animals needlessly wounded or lost due to poor accuracy.



My groups @ 100 yards on a paper target are as good (with open/iron sights) as a modern rifle.
Good enough group to fell a deer (1 shot 1 kill/no wounding)

Rifle Kentucky .45 smothebore

charge 80gr hogsons 777 fffg

projectile 150gr ball

[nw_hunter]

Guess I don't really understand inlines. When I want a modern gun I buy a modern gun. Inlines have always sort of struck me as buying an F150 but insisting it be equipped with a Model A engine.(Quote)


I'm with you 38special, and I really like the F150 thing:) Hope you don't mind if I steal it!

[txcookie]

I really dont know I own a cheap traditions inline (which currently need a new trigger) and I own a CVA Hawkins (which I honestly love)

I want a modern ML rifle as here where I live I cant use modern rifles :mad: and I like using a scoped rifle every now and again! I would never call a modern ML a Traditional rifle I see them as A WAY AROUND ML season. Still it would be very nice to be able to smoke when I see them with my TC Encore just need a new barrel first.

[Ratdog68]

When I wanna "for convenience" firearm.... I like "modern". When I want to belch smoke out the muzzle... I wanna traditional firearm. I likes percussion... but, haven't fired a flintlock yet, so, I offer no opinion of them.

[Shanghai McCoy]

Traditional here both flint and percussion... it's regular rifle season here in Kansas but I was hunting with my 1841 Mississippi in .54 caliber on Thursday and got a nice fat doe.
The wife shoots an 1817 style fintlock and we all shoot primitive/traditional archery as well so guess it runs in the family...:)

[scrat]

Inline muzzleloaders have been around since percussion ignition was invented. They were just not popular

This is true there was a picture of an inline musket that was made in the 1800's. it has been around it just was not popular. as modern day steel technology advanced so did the inline. It was brought back and has been very very popular.

Now as far as shooting. I am a shooter i am not prejudice towards on make or type of muzzleloader. I will shoot both inline and traditional. funny thing is before the in line you were not really considered a traditionalist unless you shot flintlock. Makes you think uh. Now a gun that not really for is the electronic ignition guns. that seems to take the art out of the gun.

Heck if the inline was redesigned in the late 1800's to 1900's using shot gun primers. We would all think they are traditional style guns. Its just something that was over looked due to the rapid expansion of the cartridge gun. Then re looked at as more nations and states started to ban cartridge guns and made black powder as the acceptance. Think of it this way in the UK where our fellow shooters can only go to a range and shoot black powder, those guns have to be good an up to the technology that we can provide for them. The inline is a modern day gun that shoots black powder. Hopefully there will not come a day when that is all we have to shoot.

[DutchmanDick]

I had a .50 caliber inline (early production CVA Staghorn) for a few years, but seldom shot it. It was a decently accurate rifle, and had the "fire sights" on it, but somehow it just wasn't for me. I finally ended up selling it to a buddy of mine who had borrowed it from me for several years in a row. Figured, he'd get more use out of it than I ever did (and already had). Next time I go deer hunting with a smokepole, it will be with my original type II P1853 Enfield, with my 1858 Starr DA replica as a backup. Like to see a nothern white-tail get very far with a good, solid hit from a 500-grain .575 Minie ball...:D

[WadePatton]

Sorry, I skipped a few posts.

Caplocks and flinter replica rifles brought the "special season" to the game regs. Neither had been changed for a very long time. The special seasons brought a new market and now we have these frankenguns as a result. They are something that would have never "evolved" naturally.

So naturally I don't care for them. Fine for you-it's not a personal thing.

Let's create a new lane on the highway for wood-fired, steam engine cars. See if the same thing doesn't happen.

It's just not natural-that's all I'm saying. It's akin to that super-sized and wonderfully colored piece of produce at the supermarket that ... has no flavor. Unlike the pear or tomato grown at home or next door.

But hunting is hunting and I'd rather have friends in the woods than enemas (Kelly Bundyism). :D