Attention Soldering Experts w/ .22LR, Or, How Can We Make a Rimfire Snap Cap?


PDA






Hans Esker
October 29, 2008, 12:34 AM
As we know, there are no durable .22LR snap caps on the market. The closest thing I have found was some empty, unprimed cases with bullets seated; I was rather disappointed in them. As I see it, when using empty cases, deformation of the rim area quickly becomes a problem. Ideally we could turn a dummy round from a solid, resilient material (other than aluminum, which has been tried and found lacking), but not many of us have ready access to a lathe, as compared to a torch of some sort. Not to mention the best to material to turn the dummies from has yet to be determined.

So here is my concept: In order to reduce the deformation, the case, and especially the rim area, needs to be filled with something. I believe that solder might fill the bill; surely it would be better than air! Here is where you soldering experts come in. I don't have enough soldering expertise to try this and do it right.

I have not ruled out the use of other substances, and am open to suggestions as to other materials we could fill the case rims with.

For those who state "why do you need to dry fire?", "why dry fire?", why shouldn't you dry fire a .22lr firearm?", "why not use empty cases?", et cetera, please do not bother posting, as it does not add anything to the topic at hand. If you have to ask, you probably don't understand, and should go do some more reading.

If you enjoyed reading about "Attention Soldering Experts w/ .22LR, Or, How Can We Make a Rimfire Snap Cap?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
CRITGIT
October 29, 2008, 12:39 AM
Here save yourself some grief!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/Rimfire01/Anchors.jpg
Safe and effective when used as directed!:)
Did I mention cheap?

CRITGIT

Hostile Amish
October 29, 2008, 12:58 AM
My friend gave me some steel .22LR snap caps.

I'll ask him where he got them. They work perfectly, and never distort.

Dookie
October 29, 2008, 01:28 AM
so in the time it took you to make them, you could have worked an bought enough to last a few years.

Justin
October 29, 2008, 03:31 PM
Agree with CritGit. Those things work very well. The only downside is they don't cycle. But I found that by trimming off the edge where the extractor would usually grab on to the "rim" would solve that problem. That way you can pull the slide back without extracting the anchor from the chamber. Just use it until the edge gets beat up, toss the old one, trim a new one and you're good to go.

Hans Esker
October 29, 2008, 03:35 PM
Critgit, Will these feed from a magazine? I doubt it.
Dookie, apparently you don't enjoy saving money, buying durable items, or making things.
Apparently neither of you can read very well.

The goal here is to have a discussion on how we can make a .22LR snap cap/dummy without those drawbacks.

Once again, I ask that we stay on topic.

quatin
October 29, 2008, 03:36 PM
Do you just want to fill the case with solder? Just buy some lead free solder from Radioshack, put a piece inside the .22 shell and then put the shell upright on a stove. I think 400 degrees should get most solder to melt.

john917v
October 29, 2008, 03:40 PM
Good idea from Quatin! Or, you could use lead. It'd need more heat, though. I'm gonna have to make some, with a torch, though.

quatin
October 29, 2008, 03:43 PM
I think lead based solder melts at a lower temperature. However, if you want to do this in your kitchen, it's just a couple bucks more for lead free or low lead solder and temperature is not an issue since you're using a stove.

tank mechanic
October 29, 2008, 03:56 PM
A problem with the solder is that it will probably deform along with the rim. You might try something like filling the case with a glue stick from a hot glue gun. The glue would resist deforming and you would might get the rim to last longer.

Carlos Cabeza
October 30, 2008, 04:09 PM
Odd idea :confused:...........but curiously interesting.......;)

Soldering is easy, 735 deg. approx. maybe use a little wetting agent (flux).

Dump the powder, (neutralize the ignition source) Hot water ? Put some flux inside the case and heat with propane, oxy-acet torch if ya got it. Melt some filler metal inside.

Insert bullet back into case.

Silver solder might last longer as it is a bit harder than tin or lead.

Main question here is, Why does it have to cycle like a live round ??????

The whole snap cap concept is "trigger control".......

Materials......DELRIN ? , POLYPROPYENE ?

benEzra
October 30, 2008, 04:38 PM
Do you just want to fill the case with solder? Just buy some lead free solder from Radioshack, put a piece inside the .22 shell and then put the shell upright on a stove. I think 400 degrees should get most solder to melt.
If you do this, just be sure to wear eye protection. Liquids in vertical tubes heated from the bottom can sometimes spurt out if conditions are right. I doubt this would be an issue with solder at stove temps (unless you accidentally leave some priming compound in the rim, and it goes off), but goggles are cheap compared to eye surgery.

Dump the powder, (neutralize the ignition source) Hot water ? Put some flux inside the case and heat with propane, oxy-acet torch if ya got it. Melt some filler metal inside.

Insert bullet back into case.

Silver solder might last longer as it is a bit harder than tin or lead.
Be darn sure that the priming is set off/burned away before adding any solder. A primer going off with molten solder in the case would be a nasty little cannon.

HB
October 30, 2008, 04:45 PM
Critgit, Will these feed from a magazine? I doubt it.
Dookie, apparently you don't enjoy saving money, buying durable items, or making things.
Apparently neither of you can read very well.

That is the way to get help right there folks :banghead:

You could try the solder but most likely it will just deform like everything else... And I wouldn't use steel as you could break the firing pin. I would look into making the case head out of silicone or something resilient

HB

ants
October 30, 2008, 04:59 PM
As HB notes, watch out for damage to the firing pin.

Carlos Cabeza
October 30, 2008, 07:41 PM
Ben E

Gotta give credit for being an amateur inventor huh !:what:

If he doesn't take basic precautions, he shouldn't be messing around with dangerous things.

That's like the warning label on the hair dryer !
("Do not use in the shower !"):eek:

P.S. Knifeknut, Don't do anything I suggested !:neener:

Larry Ashcraft
October 30, 2008, 07:47 PM
I hate to ruin everybody's fun playing with fire and all that dangerous stuff, but what about JB Weld?

;)

Hans Esker
October 31, 2008, 02:03 PM
Alright, it took until post #7 :banghead: but now this thread is going the way I originally intended and asked for. Thanks Guys :), keep the ideas coming.
I will try to be more civil in the future.

deadin
October 31, 2008, 03:07 PM
May I be so rude to ask what are you "snap capping" in? If its a revolver or bolt action rifle, continue on. However there sometimes are other solutions for semi-autos.

rcmodel
October 31, 2008, 03:15 PM
My friend gave me some steel .22LR snap caps.Steel rims too I presume?

I don't know what they are, but they are not snap-caps.

If they are solid steel, they are doing nothing to protect the firing pin from damage, and may in fact be causing it.

Kentucky Kernel
October 31, 2008, 03:18 PM
How about filling with 30 minute epoxy?

Beatnik
October 31, 2008, 03:49 PM
I'd cast them, but that's because I already have casting equipment - not for bullets, for sand casting.

small quantity petrobond
large steel spoon
propane torch
old pewter mug from salvation army (not aluminum) or plumbing solder
mold made of two pieces of 4-5" PVC pipe
baby powder

With that setup you could cast 6 pewter copies of 22LR at a time, with the bullet integral to it, and they'd cycle, and they wouldn't be made of steel (which can't be good for your firing pin) but soft pewter. They'd also be silver colored instead of brass.

lindsaybks.com has lots of interesting DIY books on stuff like this.

m00t
October 31, 2008, 04:05 PM
It seems like the ultimate goal here would be to create a rim with the strength to stop the impact of the firing pin, without shearing or deforming in the process, and with the rigidity to be removed by the extractor afterward. The main problem with using the brass casing of a rimfire round is that in order for it to cushion the firing pin, it needs to bend in the process, and that bend will always overcome the spring capacity of the brass.... filling the rim with an elastic material won't deform it back in the same way, and even if it did the metal would fatigue rapidly and degrade.

Impacting an elastic material directly, on the other hand, solves the issue of the rim degrading quickly from impact, but creates a new problem in that those materials are not rigid enough to be grabbed by the extractor for removal. I think that both problems can be solved 2 ways:

-Approach the issue of cushioning the firing pin the same way centerfire snap caps do, by using a metal plate connected to a spring. The spring would need to be inside the casing, and attached to a rod, holding a plate for the pin to impact. The difficulty here is going to be machining parts, and also getting the plate to move laterally since there will be a torque produced by the pin hitting the rim. Or, I suppose, you could design the plate with a pivot (like a ball-socket joint) attached to the rod so it's designed to cushion torque.

Much more readily implemented would be designing a rubber (or otherwise elastic) plate, with a brass backing for the extractor to grab. You could probably grind off the bottom of a .22 case and attach a rubber disc (maybe cut from a bike inner tube?) or mold one out of something elastic like the rubber handle material they make to dip tools in....

ranger335v
October 31, 2008, 04:06 PM
" If you have to ask, you probably don't understand,"

Roger that.

Adding solder or lead or epoxy filler in the folded rims will give you a cushion that will last a bit longer than nothing but even so it will soon deform and compact the rim. And a steel case rim will save the chamber but the potential for harm to the pin seems too high to do it that way. So, maybe just re-using a few spent cases would be cushion enough for a few firings before tossing them?

Or, not knowing what you will be dry firing, perhaps it would be easy to remove the firing pin itself?

Hans Esker
November 2, 2008, 11:28 PM
Just 'cause people keep asking, the firearm I am currently concerned with is my first, so I want to take care of it. It is a Sig Mosquito. Not only does the manual say not to dry fire, from what I have seen of its mechanical operation, the breechface will get peened without something to stop the firing pin.

Acera
November 2, 2008, 11:48 PM
Dude, all these people are attempting to help. Are you this rude all the time??

Carlos Cabeza
November 3, 2008, 03:07 PM
It's only a .22 ! You can shoot all day for a few bucks !:rolleyes:

This thread is a waste of bandwidth..................

Just shoot the damn thing for crissakes !:banghead:

jerkface11
November 3, 2008, 03:23 PM
Why not just buy some snap caps? www.midwayusa.com carries them. Your local sporting goods store probably does too.

NeoSpud
November 3, 2008, 05:24 PM
+1 Jerkface.

24 of 'em for $6.99 plus shipping
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=521044&t=11082005

I love to make stuff on my own, but there's a point where I realize it's just better to buy from the pros who have done all the research and whatnot for me. Time is money, and I'm not sure that hours of tinkering would be worth it when the guaranteed product (I trust Pachmayr!) is so cheap. If you can make a better snap cap, go for it (and patent it while you're at it), but I think this is one of the times where it's not necessary unless you just want the satisfaction of doing it yourself.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 3, 2008, 08:12 PM
Couple thoughts.

1. It seems to me that steel snap caps (as someone suggested) would defeat the purpose to a large degree and could break your pin. If we wanted to hit the pin on steel, we could just dry fire onto the steel chamber edge. But better than nothing I suppose.

2. Critgit, what size are those, and description of item, so we know what to buy as a separate, temporary measure?

3. Centerfire caps use a spring that rebounds, so following the same principle, I'd think you'd want a springy material - is there any way to inject a "foam-rubbery" material into the rim area? Perhaps a steel cap COULD come in handy if it gives a bit due to a foam rubbery or just rubbery type material in the rim, with a split in the rim all the way around which allows it to sink in and be absorbed by the foam rubbery material?

4. As for the polymer snap caps, they are worthless because they tear up and are trash even well BEFORE a spent brass casing would be, so why not just use spent casings instead of spending money? No, I think the question asked is a relevant one..

That's all I have at present. :)

Hans Esker
November 3, 2008, 09:54 PM
Just because live rounds are cheap doesn't mean you can practice with them indoors at home when you cant get to the range!

earplug
November 3, 2008, 10:03 PM
I might try a plastic rod in a fired case. shape and polish to mimic a real round, this would cycle ok.
The deformed rim you just have to live with. It would protect the breach from damage from the firing pin.
I can't think of anything that would hang together in the thin rim that would resist deforming and not risk imparting any damage to the barrel. The brass case would alway deform where the firing pin hit.

gazpacho
November 4, 2008, 03:38 AM
Can you remove the firing pin?

Carlos Cabeza
November 4, 2008, 02:35 PM
KK you're a good sport !

What, is the mosquito the ONLY gun you own ?:D

I practice dry firing with something that might actually HELP,

like my 1911 ! .....:neener:

After all, it is called a MOSQUITO!!!!!!!!!:p

If ya got a full size SIG I'll shutup !

Hans Esker
November 4, 2008, 03:20 PM
Well at least I got a realistic gun to learn and train with! Once I am competent with the Mosquito I will get serious about picking out something centerfire.

Nick1911
November 4, 2008, 03:39 PM
I suggest a brass or aluminum case body, complete with bullet shape. Cut threads in the body from the backside (8-32). Machine rim (half-thickness) and threads from an 8-32 bolt. Preferably a nice, hard, grade 8 bolt. JB weld a little circle of rubber to it, only in the middle. (you can buy sheets of this in varying thicknesses from car part stores)

Problem solved.

(Sorry for the crappy, not to scale drawing, I only have MSPaint at work..)

Carlos Cabeza
November 4, 2008, 05:21 PM
Touche' Knife Knut !

I'm just razzin' ya ! :evil:

I knew the reference to 1911's would stir some poo !

Actually I shoot an XD-9 SC for CCW. I need to get some 9mm snap caps too. I have looked at both the Mosquito and the P-22 and am still undecided but leaning towards the skeeter. I would say a good choice for a trainer pistol, then go for the full size pistol after getting "aquainted" with its smaller cousin.

I read your range report and wish I was as thorough !:)

Hans Esker
November 7, 2008, 06:13 PM
I have been busy, so has anyone had a chance to try any of these things?

44Magnum
November 7, 2008, 06:47 PM
I think Nick has the best idea. You simply can't use a case because it will deform. You need a material that will deform (to cushion the pin), but only temporarially.

If you enjoyed reading about "Attention Soldering Experts w/ .22LR, Or, How Can We Make a Rimfire Snap Cap?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!