[dak0ta]

Hi,

I was thinking of buying my dad his first shotgun. I introduced him to my 870 Express this summer which is around 7.5 lbs and at his age it was a little too heavy for him.

I've taken a look at a single-shot which weighs 4-5 lbs which he can handle. I'm more concerned about the recoil. Should I get him a 12 gauge or 20 gauge? How much more does the 20 kick over the 12? Do I need to get a recoil pad to slip on or something?

Also, can you comment on the Pardner quality and durability?

[NCsmitty]

The 12 Ga. does have a stout recoil out of the NEF single shot. A 20 ga. will be most sensible with regular 2 3/4" shells.
They are a no-frills, simple and reliable firearm that people keep forever. I have a 410 myself and it's extremely reliable.

NCsmitty

[dak0ta]

Does a box of 20 gauge shells cost more than a 12 gauge box? Assuming 7.5 Shot Target Loads

[camoman33935]

Nope....the 20ga target loads are the same price as the 12ga target loads at Walmart which is around $22 for 100 rounds down here

[Girodin]

I have a NEF 20 gauge and it is the hardest kicking shotgun I own. It is very light gun. That lightweight means its easy t carry around all day but it also means more recoil. I wary of shooting the little 20 much more quickly than my pump and auto 12s.

A good recoil pad is in order for NEF single shots IMO.

[NCsmitty]

In the bulk packaging, like at Walmart, prices are nearly the same per box. Target loads would be very good to use.

NCsmitty

[dak0ta]

So according to Girodin, 20 gauge is still going to kick a lot. So should I just go with the 12 gauge since it's more common? Also, does the extractor work well? Or is it something that will break easily and have to be replaced?

[MAX100]

I would go with a 12Ga pump. Mossberg 500 or Remington 870. You can shoot low recoil shells in a pump. The Mossberg 500 combo shotgun with 28" and 18.5" barrels would be good. They cost around $250. Remington is offering rebates on their 870 shotguns that make them and excellent deal.


GC

[dak0ta]

MAX100, I already have an Remington 870!!! This was for my dad because the pump was too heavy for his old body.

[MAX100]

If a pump is to heavy then the recoil from a 12Ga or 20Ga lighter gun will be to heavy. Maybe you should consider a 410 shotgun. There are some good lower cost 12Ga & 20Ga gas operated semi autos that are light weight and have less recoil than a pump or single shot.


GC

[dak0ta]

I'm not too concerned about recoil. I guess my question really is whether the difference in recoil between 12 and 20 gauge in a single shot is noticeable. And if I just buy a slip on recoil pad, will that be good enough. ;)

[Crazy Fingers]

Here's an easy way to compare recoil numbers quickly:

Shot Weight * Velocity
----------------------- = Recoil Factor
Shotgun Weight

The units are irrelevant if you are making direct comparisons between guns.

20 gauge 7/8 oz target load at 1200 fps in 5 lb gun = 210
20 gauge 1 oz target load at 1200 fps in a 5 lb gun = 240
12 gauge 1 1/8 oz target load at 1200 fps in 5.5 lb gun = 245

These are just my weight guesses on the 20 gauge model, but the 12 gauge is right at 5.5 pounds on my kitchen scale.

For what it's worth, II love my NEF 12 gauge. It beats the snot out of me when I shoot heavier loads on it, but I almost always hit what I'm shooting at, and it's light enough that I can carry it through the marsh all day.

[dak0ta]

Thanks for the numbers Crazy Fingers. What exactly does the recoil factor mean in terms of force.

Also, would you recommend a Full or Modified choke for clays, plinking, minor hunting?

[Crazy Fingers]

It's basically a simplified momentum balance, and it doesn't translate directly into force on the shoulder because it doesn't tell you how long the impact takes. The assumption is that a 12 gauge and 20 gauge shotgun "go off" in the same amount of time, which lets you compare recoil force this way. Also, the units are weird when you do it this way, which means it's really only useful for relative comparisons between shotguns. You can do the same thing to compare recoil between rifles, just with bullet weight in grains instead of shot weight in ounces.

Put much more simply, a bigger number means a higher the recoil. How much exactly? Well, that's more complicated. :)

My NEF has a fixed modified choke and I think that's fine for general use when I can have targets at varying distances.

[Schofield3]

How much more does the 20 kick over the 12?

You’ve got it a bit backwards there; the 12GA has more recoil than the 20GA. especially with a lighter weight shotgun the 12GA will kick more. So if felt recoil is the main concern choose the 20GA. I think this makes the most sense as it sounds like the shotgun doesn't have a main priority of hunting or self defense. The H&R Pardner is a reliable shotgun and a fitting choice.

[Dirty Bob]

Recoil also depends on gun weight. My NEF youth model 20ga is 4 pounds, 11 ounces! I'm currently adding some weight to the gun. At 6.5 pounds, it would still feel handy, but it would kick a lot less.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

[Gord]

There's always Steve's favorite, the 28 gauge ;)

[PTK]

Those 28ga NEF shotguns are near perfect as-is. All mine needed was a bunch of rounds through it to be perfect. No recoil pad, no nothing. :)

[Will Fennell]

I use a 28ga youth model single shot all the time to teach kids down to 6-7 years of age......a better recoil pad helps, but not essential. One of my favorite guns......

[dust_101]

You could always look at the Mossberg 500 in a 410 with synthetic stock and a good recoil pad if you're concerned about recoil for him. The shotgun itself (from the Mossberg site) is 6 1/4 LBS with the wood stock.

I have a NEF single shot in 12ga and it is the hardest kicking shotgun I own.

[thirdeagle]

+1 on the .410 NEF. With a decent recoil pad recoil is not an issue. Good all around fun gun and dispatcher of tree rats.

[sm]

Will Fennell wrote:
I use a 28ga youth model single shot all the time to teach kids down to 6-7 years of age......a better recoil pad helps, but not essential. One of my favorite guns......

Will and I both have assisted also older persons, and those with physical limits as well

There exists a parallel between kids and older persons.
The fact of the matter is, a person is not fully developed until age 16 for girls and age 18 for boys. Then all the systems from integumentary, skeletal, muscular...etc., run fine, at their best, until age 36 for girls and 34 for boys then systems start to erode.

That shotgun is heavy to carry for kid, and for the older adult for the same reasons.
The kid is not fully developed, and the older adult has deterioration causing a shotgun to be difficult to hold, and carry for long periods.

Rule of 96 applies to Recoil Management.

Reading the student/ user of a shotgun is critical for Will and other Instructors.

Gun Fit to shooter for Task encompasses a whole lot more than sticking a shotgun butt into the crook of a bent arm at elbow. All that tells you is you have shotgun and you can bend your arm.

The largest human organ is the Skin. For a kid not yet developed ice cream feels "hot", and many things are "rough" and "sharp" and "scitchey scratchey".
A label or tag on a T shirt, will but the daylights out of them.
Older persons due to deterioration will have the same complaints.

One does not remain 19 years of age full of urine and vinegar. If one's "shottie lessons" consist of buying extreme shotguns and using exotic shells they are not shotgunners.

The person that learns correct basic fundamentals and continues to built on such a foundation, can better assist kids, ladies ( they are built different than men) elderly, and physically limited folks.

Kids are not dumb, and they have rights just like big people. Sit down, and parent/mentor honestly with a kid.

"Listen, the Game & Fish regulations say you have to use non-toxic shot on ducks. You are growing, getting bigger,and you do really great with the 28 ga shotgun, but you cannot handle the larger frame size of a 20, or the recoil yet. Oh you used to could shoot 28 ga for ducks, before non tox was mandated...

Come on out to the blind and learn stuff and hang out, and you a I will do some bird, or small game hunting where you can shoot your 28 gauge"

The older person has been dealing with the fact the body will not let it do what it once did.
The cold and wet affects them faster and more brutal than it did when they were younger. They just cannot walk , much less wade into duck blinds.

This breaks your heart, both with a kid, or geriatric, or one hurt, injured and now limited physically.

You keep your promises, you communicate with a kid, or elderly with respect and honesty, and the smaller size of a 28 gauge allows them to break clay targets, fell dove, quail, rabbits, squirrels...etc.

Will Fennell knows the same 28 ga single shot a 6 year uses, can be used by a older person for all the same reasons.

"But 28 gauge ammo is harder to find and more expensive".

You cannot put a dollar value on a kid, or an older adult.
You cannot put a dollar value on the future of RKBA, and so much more WE believe in , any more you can diminish discount the contributions of our best natural resources - our older members of society.

Buy the 28 gauge, shells, a MEC Single Stage , components to reload.
Besides the shooting , there is the quality time spent in reloading.


Heck buy one to have for kids, nieces and nephews coming up, and for used by aging parents , aunts, and uncles.

The 28 gauge really is that much better than it is supposed to be. The payload to bore relationship allows it to hit hard, as it has short shot strings. (more pellets arrive to target at the same time).

Yes, I have felled a slew of ducks with the 28 gauge, as have others, back in the day.
Will and I can both share one can break that rising teal target with authority at 40 yards, in Sporting Clays and 5 stand.

The highest scores in Regulation Skeet are shot with a 28 gauge.

You just have to be honest about what a shooter can really handle, accept limitations, and choose targets (includes game) they can participate in.

Never talk down to a kid, or adult, or embarrass one. They shoot, you assist, mentor, and parent.
Target presentions and conditions are to fit them, at their level of development, not yours.

You talk down, or embarrass a kid, or older person, you will have me, Will, Dave, Lee, kudu, plummeroy and whole hosts of folks to answer to.
We promise you that.

[Will Fennell]

Either way, .410 least favorite, .28, 20 or 12 ga, don't worry too much about ammo cost....this is a SINGLE SHOT....one box of ammo lasts quite awhile.

Even .28 ga is readily available.

If you really want a 20 ga, but want lower recoil....try this load from Fiocchi - 20LITE75 - 3/4 oz of shot at just under 1100fps.

[sm]

Will,
One of these days...
Besides taking lessons from you, or maybe your wife, since she is better looking than you...*grin*

Dead Serious, I would like to assist you and your wife with the kids and older folks some day.
I don't even have to have a shotgun in hand, shoot, or be on field per se'.
Heck I can play gopher, load the machines with clays, fix hot dawgs, hot chocolate and whatever else.

There is nothing that compares to a kid felling a target.
And if you can stand there and watch a grandparent pass forward a gun to a grand kid and not shed a tear, you are a better man than I.

There is something about a kid, parent, and grandparent all felling targets together.
I burned hot dawgs once, as I was watching 4 generations of a family using 28 ga shotguns shoot skeet.
The littlest one, a little girl, only shot station Low 7. Still that cutie was "weady" and she busted it every time.

If you fix me a hot dawg and not burn it up, you can shoot my new 28 ga shotgun .- this cute young lady.

I bribe easy, I did not burn her hot dawg, in fact *puffs chest*
This is the bestest hot dawg I have "eber" had.

I gotta thang with slitting dawgs, adding cheese and wrapping with bacon ...
*yummy*

[Bud Tugly]

I've been in a wheelchair for 8 years and can't handle heavy recoil or tote hefty guns around any more. I bought a youth model Rossi in .410 and really enjoy shooting it.

It's small and light to carry and recoil is extremely mild. Sure the shells cost more and it's less effective than a larger gauge, but it's sure better than nothing. It's allowed me to keep shooting and hunting rather than giving it up.

If I had been active on this website at the time, I probably would have been convinced to buy a 28 gauge instead. I've never used one or even known anyone who owned one, but it sounds like the perfect solution for anyone who wants an effective shotgun but can't deal with heavy weight or fierce recoil.

[BHP FAN]

The twelve gauges feirce recoil is mostly a myth.My twelve ga,with Winchester's low noise low recoil featherlites kicks WAY lessthan a 20 ga. with feild loads,It's what you load them with that makes the difference,and the 12 ga has more loadings available than any other shotgun out there,you can even get those little low penetration Aguilas.Again,it's what you're putting in them that counts,not the ga.Except that little .410. THOSE are just fun as all get out.Up to about 15 yards the shot stays in a solid clump,and they are just about as accurate as a .22!

[sm]

Bud Tugly,

Thank you for sharing again your real world observations and experiences as one that is physically limited.
I understand and respect the fact sharing is not easy to do.

[huntin dad]

i own a NEF 20 gauge w/ a fixed modified choke. It's not bad on recoil if you stat away from the 3" loads. If I were you I'd buy a youth model NEF 20 gauge and add a slip on recoil pad. (I say to get a youth model because there lighter and the added recoil pad ands length, so the shorter youth stock will allow for the extra length without makeing the gun too long)I love the .410 but shells for it and the 28 gauge are more expencive and sometimes harder to find and avalible in limited options.

[boomcrash]

I like the Federal reduced recoil LE loads in mine. The are in 13g 00 buck and slugs.

[Bud Tugly]

Steve, thanks for the kind words, but I have no problem talking about my disability. Life is full of challenges, and mine are just more visible than most.

I'm grateful that I can still get out in the woods and enjoy shooting and hunting like I've done all my life. It's all good and life is all about making the best of our situation, whatever it may be.

I'm also glad to have found a site so filled with wisdom and experience.

[sm]

Bud,

It is that thanks you sir.
As you know, I have assisted physically limited persons and I always learn something from them doing so.

There is much truth to "the student teaches the instructor."

[arch1967]

The heavier the gun, the less recoil (weight soaks up recoil). Also, autoloaders soak up recoil because the gas system uses part of the gas that would get blown out the end of the barrel (recoil) to cycle the bolt. They also have bolt return springs which dissipate recoil as well (like an AR15). If I were looking for a fun single-shot that won't bruise me every time I shoot it, I would choose a 410. Of course, the ammunition brand and load you plan to shoot will also affect recoil with any gun. Buckshot and slugs kick more than field loads. Just some general information. I hope this helps.