TMS Shooting .50 BMG


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Working Man
November 2, 2008, 10:10 PM
I did not see this listed anywhere....

I just saw on Fox4 that a .50 BMG dropped through the
roof of a camper at the TMS today shatering the arm of
a woman inside.

Anyone have any more news on this?

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General Geoff
November 2, 2008, 10:20 PM
I'm not seeing anything on their website.


What is the TMS? And did a .50BMG rifle fall through the roof of the camper, or was it a stray round fired from god-knows-where?

FlyinBryan
November 2, 2008, 10:26 PM
all i can answer is "tms" is texas motor speedway

FlyinBryan
November 2, 2008, 10:28 PM
im not seeing it on the fox4 website.

probably a rumor or somethuing.

BillyBothHands
November 2, 2008, 11:05 PM
I guess all the web guys are off on sunday. I've seen it on every network now but none of them have it on their web site as of yet. So far all i've seen is that they dug the bullet out of camper trailer.

BillyBothHands
November 2, 2008, 11:08 PM
They must have heard me posting lol here is a link to Fox4 with the video story of it so far

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=7776035&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1

FlyinBryan
November 2, 2008, 11:31 PM
holy moly.

whats the max range on one of those?

that dont look like a rumor to me.

looks more like about 750g of lead and copper

Flyboy
November 2, 2008, 11:44 PM
whats the max range on one of those?
Substantial.

Am I the only person whose first thought was "agent provocateur," ŗ la Enemies Foreign and Domestic?

General Geoff
November 2, 2008, 11:47 PM
No way that could have been staged, or at least staged past "let's fire this thing into the air a bunch of times and watch the news this evening."

A .50BMG round fired at a 45 degree angle could have a range of 10 miles or more.

rondog
November 2, 2008, 11:48 PM
Man, that thing could have been a ricochet from a range miles away. No tellin' WHERE it could have come from.

FlyinBryan
November 3, 2008, 12:24 AM
A .50BMG round fired at a 45 degree angle could have a range of 10 miles or more.

wow, i had no idea.

i figured 2800-3000fps, 600-750grains, maybe 4-5 miles.
but 10!!!!!wow!!!!!

thats not a rifle, thats friggin artillery.

rondog
November 3, 2008, 01:16 AM
This is a video I took this spring, there's a LOT of .50's flying around here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoQTFbPbg_g

Double Naught Spy
November 3, 2008, 06:33 AM
Max range is 7000 yards.

The only gun range within that distance is Quali Creek Public Gun Range. However, their range orientation is in the opposite direction of the speedway. They don't allow FMJ and I don't believe they allow .50 BMG. So they are not likely to be at issue.

http://cbs11tv.com/local/Jill.King.Bullet.2.854849.html

Based on the video above, it would appear to have come down at a fairly steep trajectory.

woodybrighton
November 3, 2008, 08:32 AM
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/DomnaAntoniadis.shtml
9 mm out to 2200 yards!!
so I think 7000 yrds for .50 being conservative at best
10 miles is probably accurate not that you could hit anything at range with aimed fire maybe map predicated fire with 100 round plus burst from an m2
fixed it now

Double Naught Spy
November 3, 2008, 09:46 AM
Your hypertextbook link does not work.

I don't know what gun you would get 10 miles out of a .50 BMG. The M82A1 SASR (Special Application Scoped Rifle) has a maximum range of about 7000 yards according to the Marines.

The round itself (versus the rifle) is rated for out to 7400 meters (~8100 yards) according to Biggerhammer...http://www.biggerhammer.net/barrett/faq.html

So at 8100 yards, that would be less than 5 miles.

mr.scott
November 3, 2008, 10:40 AM
ok, they show the "round" that went through the roof the woman's arm and embedded itself in the wall. Um, isn't it in almost in perfect shape for a round that did so much damage. It must have been looking for a Kennedy.

Rob G
November 3, 2008, 10:47 AM
ok, they show the "round" that went through the roof the woman's arm and embedded itself in the wall. Um, isn't it in almost in perfect shape for a round that did so much damage.

You know, I didn't think of that before. I don't know that an arm would be enough to deform a .50 bmg. But shouldn't the wall that stopped it have caused some deformation in the process of halting it's momentum?

General Geoff
November 3, 2008, 11:05 AM
Not necessarily. If the rifle was fired from 2 or more miles away, the velocity of the round would most likely be reduced to subsonic. It's quite possible this was a steel core projectile, and probably would not deform much if at all at such low velocities, regardless of what it hit. And considering it "shattered" the woman's bone, her tissue was probably what slowed it down the most.

kingpin008
November 3, 2008, 12:05 PM
Man, how bizarre is that. I'd love to see the entry point of the round in the roof of the camper, and the spot where it lodged in the wall.

Whatever the outcome, I hope the lady recovers quickly, and isn't too traumatized by this event.

Double Naught Spy
November 3, 2008, 01:30 PM
Not necessarily. If the rifle was fired from 2 or more miles away, the velocity of the round would most likely be reduced to subsonic.

A 668 gr. M33 ball boattail round with a muzzle velocity of 2900 fps will lose 1100 fps by 1000 yards - down to about 1800 fps. At 2000 yards, it should be down to about 1100 fps. At 3000 yards, it is down to about 900 fps., so subsonic well before 2 miles.

Working Man
November 3, 2008, 06:54 PM
Not good at any time but with the current political climate this is real bad.

Is this the first time on record that a .50 BMG has injured someone is the US?
I know the left is chomping at the bit for more ammunition to ban this caliber.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 3, 2008, 07:02 PM
Must have been a Jeff Gordon operative, out to get Carl Edwards fans.

cassandrasdaddy
November 3, 2008, 08:13 PM
where are all those "its safe to fire into the air" guys hiding?

Millwright
November 3, 2008, 09:01 PM
Well I guess we can rule out air-to-air fire.......and it is a little far to the Mexican border.....

I believe "max range" angle is around 35'. For the .50 BMG ball ammo that would be in the neighborhood of 5 miles. Its terminal angle could be quite steep, accounting for the results described. Certainly, given the condition of the "recovered" slug it was pretty well spent.

Of course all this is predicated that the "facts" are as reported/represented. Not some fabrication. >MW

BillyBothHands
November 3, 2008, 11:21 PM
I don't have the link yet, but just heard the husband is setting up a website as a petition page to get
50s banned for 'consumer' use. *sighs*

rondog
November 4, 2008, 12:13 AM
A very tragic incident for sure, I hope she comes out of it OK. But what are the odds of something like that happening? I mean, they're hanging out in the RV and WHAM!

Last New Year's Eve here in Denver, a family was gathered in a home celebrating. A drunk idiot a couple blocks away decided he should try to shoot out a streetlight with his .44 mag. The bullet went through the wall of the house, through a woman's head and into her niece's chest, killing both of them.

I've often wondered how many ground casualties occured during WWI and WWII from all the bullets, casings and flak shrapnel raining out of the skies. Think of all the millions of .30, .50 and 20mm projectiles fired up there.

I've seen a photo of a car near Pearl Harbor that was hit by a shell falling out of the sky. It may have been a 5" naval shell, can't remember, but it killed the occupants.

woodybrighton
November 4, 2008, 03:54 AM
basra palace the night Uday and his brother got theres.:(
happy fire takes on a new meaning when its a whole city and people have rpgs and 14.5mm mgs being fired skywards:(
everybody found a bunker to cower in :cool:

Acera
November 4, 2008, 09:26 PM
This may solve the accident:

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa081104_lj_bullet.17e34913f.html

Working Man
November 4, 2008, 09:49 PM
From Acera's link: http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dw...17e34913f.html


Benbrook man says his bullet may have hit woman at Texas Motor Speedway

03:55 PM CST on Tuesday, November 4, 2008

By DAN X. McGRAW / The Dallas Morning News

Fort Worth police are investigating reports from a 49-year-old Benbrook man who says he may be responsible for the stray bullet that hit an Arlington woman Sunday morning at Texas Motor Speedway.

Kennith Jaramillo contacted Fort Worth police on Monday after hearing that Jill King Moss, 62, was hit in her arm by a .50-caliber bullet that pierced the roof of her RV, authorities said. Ms. Moss was taken to Harris Methodist Hospital and is expected to recover from her injuries.

Given the bullet’s trajectory, Fort Worth police investigators believe the bullet came from a long distance away.

Mr. Jaramillo told police he was target shooting five miles away from Texas Motor Speedway between 10 and 11 a.m, said Lt. Paul Henderson, a Fort Worth police spokesman. Mr. Jaramillo fired five or six rounds at a berm, a mound of dirt, with his .50-caliber Vulcan single shot rifle.

Fort Worth police confiscated his weapon for ballistics tests. If tests confirm the bullet was fired from his weapon, Mr. Jaramillo could be charged with deadly conduct for recklessly firing a weapon, Lt. Henderson said.

Mr. Jaramillo has not been arrested or charged in the incident.

I'm glad he is taking responsibility. It does not change what happened but it
softens the balistic point of the unknown .50 shooter running about.

TedP
November 5, 2008, 08:46 AM
How is shooting at a berm (something all of us do) qualify as "recklessly firing a weapon"? I know we don't have all the info, but it does not sound like he was trying to drop one on the race.

Double Naught Spy
November 5, 2008, 10:13 AM
He apparently was not able to control the rounds he was firing. That is what makes his firing reckless.

They are calling it reckless primarily because there is no indication that he was trying to fire at the race intentionally - hence deadly conduct.

rondog
November 5, 2008, 10:42 AM
You know, it's ENTIRELY possible that a .50 round could exit a soft dirt berm and head off into the distance. High-powered bullets can do bizarre things, and a big pile of dirt is NO guarantee of stopping any bullets. I've seen a lot of .30's go into a berm then back out again, heading for the moon. His angle of fire may have been towards the top of the berm too. At least he manned up and said "hey, that might have been me".

Acera
November 5, 2008, 11:10 AM
Ok for all you LEO types, the article says

If tests confirm the bullet was fired from his weapon, Mr. Jaramillo could be charged with deadly conduct for recklessly firing a weapon

Why deadly conduct? Nobody died, it was not deadly. Maybe reckless endangerment, but unless something else comes out, it looks like an accident.

FLR72
November 5, 2008, 12:01 PM
I rely feel bad for the lady and the shooter. It’s a freak and terrible accident and a black eye for all of us who enjoy shooting no matter how responsible and safe we think we are.. (Insert one rotten apple analogy) But the fact is every time you or I pull that trigger you are responsible for the bullet that the gun fires.. The club I belong to banned .50 BMG’s a few years ago because they were ricocheting off the brims hitting a canyon wall then dropping rocks on/ near rafters and kayakers over 5 miles away. All of this on a range designed by the U.S. Army for hi-power rifles. I am not anti .50 BMG I wish I had one. All I am saying is let’s not feed the fire that we all know is coming, any accident is going to be put under a microscope and used against us probably under the banner of you can never be to safe or something like that.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 5, 2008, 12:11 PM
Fort Worth police confiscated his weapon for ballistics tests. If tests confirm the bullet was fired from his weapon, Mr. Jaramillo could be charged with deadly conduct for recklessly firing a weapon, Lt. Henderson said.

That's absurd - guys, lookit, in the law, there are essentially 3 levels of negligence conduct below an actual intent to harm:

1. Ordinary negligence. Just doing something "un-careful" with a fair risk of harm to others. This level of negligence results in civil liability but NO CRIMINAL LIABILITY.

2. Gross negligence or Recklessness: This is so very negligent that there is a pretty obvious high risk of harm to innocents by your conduct. The classic example would be drunk driving. You kill someone when driving drunk, then that is presumed to be Reckless, giving rise to Manslaughter/Negligent Homocide, or a lesser charge if no one dies.

3. Extreme recklessness / "Depraved Heart". No specific intent to kill or harm, but bordering on that. Classic example is firing into the window of a building knowing that many people are in that room. There's not 100% chance of hitting/killing someone, but it's extremely high. This results in a charge of Murder (2nd degree) if someone dies as a result. The "Felony Murder" rule falls into this category - you rob a place with guns, that's highly reckless, and a murder charge ensues if someone dies, whether victim or your accomplice.

So this guy's actions, if he was shooting into a berm, are pretty clearly level 1, NOT level 2 - if he simply just missed the berm, but intending to hit the berm (especially if there's nothing in that 5 miles between the berm and civilization/humanity when shooting). That is not a crime - that is an accident due to negligence. He should and will have to pay her for her injuries civilly, but should not be charged with anything. NOW, very very differently, if the guy had been shooting just into the air at a target, with NO BERM, then that's probably level 2 - reckless conduct, and a charge of reckless endangerment or some such could actually be appropriate, depending upon all the facts and circumstances. But not here, if the facts are as reported. I guess if the police overstep common sense, he'll be plenty sorry he did the right thing by coming forward - too bad. No good deed goes unpunished.

Double Naught Spy
November 5, 2008, 01:47 PM
Why deadly conduct? Nobody died, it was not deadly. Maybe reckless endangerment, but unless something else comes out, it looks like an accident.

He was employing lethal force and failed to control it. That is the basis for consideration. Now, whether it will hold up as PS is arguing is another matter.

ß 22.05. DEADLY CONDUCT.
(a) A person commits an offense if he recklessly engages in conduct that places another in imminent danger of serious bodily injury.
(b) A person commits an offense if he knowingly discharges a firearm at or in the direction of:
(1) one or more individuals; or
(2) a habitation, building, or vehicle and is reckless as to whether the habitation, building, or vehicle is occupied.
(c) Recklessness and danger are presumed if the actor knowingly pointed a firearm at or in the direction of another whether or not the actor believed the firearm to be loaded.
(d) For purposes of this section, "building," "habitation," and "vehicle" have the meanings assigned those terms by Section 30.01.
(e) An offense under Subsection (a) is a Class A misdemeanor. An offense under Subsection (b) is a felony of the third degree.

rondog
November 5, 2008, 01:58 PM
I went to a machinegun shoot this spring and I'll tell ya what, watching the .50 cal. tracers sailing off over the horizon at dusk was quite eye-opening. Those puppies were going a LONG ways. Far out of sight. And the ricochets at over a mile away were even more eye-opening.

Roland
November 5, 2008, 07:24 PM
Hi everyone. I donít usually post on this message board but I after reading this thread I decided to go ahead and sign up to bring those of you who keep calling this an ďaccidentĒ and a ďstray bulletĒ back to reality.

It is highly unlikely that the Benbrook man shot at a berm and accidentally hit a woman in the arm 5 miles away. Iím not saying its impossible under certain conditions, Iím saying its HIGHLY UNLIKELY. Iím confident the ballistics tests will prove it wasnít his bullet and Iím willing to put my money where my mouth is.

The maximum range for the .50 BMG round is listed as 6800 meters (4.22 miles) so for one to travel 5 miles after ricocheting off a berm it would have had to been some kind of specialty load or had one hell of a tail wind.

Also, there just arenít very many stray .50 cal rounds flying through the skies of North Texas, so for one of them to accidentally hit the TMS, and to do it on the day of a big race, is just too much of a coincidence.

I think what actually happened is someone lined up the shot from a long ways off and deliberately lobbed a round at the TMS just to see if he could hit it. I bet the guy got a hard on when he watched the news that evening and saw that it connected.

Thatís my 2 cents. (Flame shields up)

cassandrasdaddy
November 5, 2008, 08:12 PM
how much money is backing your mouth? and who's gonna hold stakes?

Double Naught Spy
November 5, 2008, 11:25 PM
The maximum range for the .50 BMG round is listed as 6800 meters (4.22 miles) so for one to travel 5 miles after ricocheting off a berm it would have had to been some kind of specialty load or had one hell of a tail wind.

Roland,
Your distance is a bit shy for the max range of .50 BMG. See post 15. It may be only 6800 yards from your .50 BMG rifle, but that isn't the max range for the cartridge.

The 5 miles distance isn't set in stone in regard to where the shooter was relative to TMS. In other words, the stated 5 mile distance may be 3 or 4 miles, 5, or maybe 6. We don't know. It may be that the shooting location is 5 road miles away from TMS but only 3 or 4 air miles (as the proverbial crow flies). We don't know the exact shooting location, only the impact location.

Nobody has said they should the round ricocheted off the berm. You have inferred that. The statement was that the shooter was shooting AT the berm. He very well may have missed the berm with one or more shots.

Also, there just arenít very many stray .50 cal rounds flying through the skies of North Texas, so for one of them to accidentally hit the TMS, and to do it on the day of a big race, is just too much of a coincidence.

The Shooter thinks he was shooting toward the speedway. He was shooting during the time frame in which the woman was shot. You are right in that there were probably not too many people firing .50 BMG guns during that time around the TMS area, so it is much less likely that this was a coincidence.

flyboy1788
November 5, 2008, 11:54 PM
to bad the bullet didnt shatter kyle bushs arm, maybe he wouldnt be able to drive for a while:evil:

Double Naught Spy
November 6, 2008, 06:52 AM
http://cbs11tv.com/sports/Jill.King.TMS.2.857530.html
Man Says He May Have Shot, Injured Woman At TMS
Reporting

Carol Cavazos
FORT WORTH (CBS 11 News) ― Fort Worth police have preliminary results from tests conducted on the gun believed to have fired the stray bullet that wounded a woman at the Texas Motor Speedway.

It matches the .50 caliber bullet recovered at the scene.

Tuesday, a 49-year-old Benbrook man came forward saying he's the one who may have fired the gun.

The victim, 62-year-old Jill King, remained in the hospital Wednesday night.

Her husband says the man who came forward called him.

"He is remorseful. He is beside himself, and I told him how appreciative I was that he had that kind of character and would come forward," said Mel Moss, King's husband.

Moss has launched a website telling his story and advocating a ban on sales of .50-caliber weapons to citizens: www.50caldanger.org

Acera
November 6, 2008, 11:04 AM
This man seems to have had it all set up. This is pretty fast to gain a new cause.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 6, 2008, 11:11 AM
Roland, welcome! :)

But, the following is a false dichotomy:

"Either the shooter (a) Hit the berm, and then the bullet richocheted off the berm, and went 5 miles, or (b) he intentionally lobbed a round up at 30 or 40 degrees trying to hit the speedway, whilst sporting a pup tent in his britches."

How about: "He made a mistake, flinched a bit, held a bit too high, and his bullet sailed over the berm, unbeknownst to him until he later saw the news report. Since he missed the berm, his bullet was indeed traveling up at an angle, which can greatly increase the range of such "indirect fire" causing a casualty when it lands - 5 miles is well doable in that scenario, if my math is right, with a standard .50 BMG round.

Another possibility is - he didn't use a berm at all, but still held a little high. Much more negligence if that is the case. But early reports indicate that he did use a berm (or try to use it).

Moss has launched a website telling his story and advocating a ban on sales of .50-caliber weapons to citizens:

Oh brother - him and .50caliberterror.com ....

harleymanrm
November 6, 2008, 12:05 PM
it is 3.87 driving miles from the shooting range to TMS. half that in a straight line.

Roland
November 6, 2008, 12:30 PM
Judging from the angle the bullet came down I say he would have to be an extremely bad shot to accidentally shoot that high over the berm, or maybe he just barely missed an extremely tall berm.

it is 3.87 driving miles from the shooting range to TMS. half that in a straight line.

A ricochet makes a lot more sense if that is the actual distance.

rondog
November 6, 2008, 12:57 PM
You know, I feel great sympathy for this man and his wife, they're innocent victims of a tragic accident and I sincerely hope all turns out OK for them, as best that it can. Same for the shooter, I'm certain he didn't mean for this to happen, and I'm sure he's crushed by this.

But that anti-.50 cal. website of Mr. Moss' is insane! And how did he get that put together so quickly?

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 6, 2008, 03:02 PM
That does seem a little suspicious, to have that site up and running so incredibly fast.

I have to offer a correction: "Tragic" would mean that the poor woman DIED. She did not. She has sustained moderate non-life-threatening injuries. I would call it unfortunate and sad, but not "tragic".

Double Naught Spy
November 6, 2008, 03:25 PM
it is 3.87 driving miles from the shooting range to TMS. half that in a straight line.

Just what shooting range are you referring to here? The only public or club gun range within 5 miles of TMS is Quail Creek and they don't allow FMJ, .50 BMG, and their shooting direction is from south to north, AWAY from TMS. So the shooter wasn't at Quail Creek.

Judging from the angle the bullet came down I say he would have to be an extremely bad shot to accidentally shoot that high over the berm, or maybe he just barely missed an extremely tall berm.

A ricochet makes a lot more sense if that is the actual distance.

Well Roland, you are citing a guy who is quoting distances not relevant to the discussion. You have no idea what actually happened when the guy discharged the rifle in regard to where the rifle was pointed, if the round was intentionally discharged, etc.

Besides, wasn't your money on the guy NOT being the shooting and that ballistic tests would bear this out?

rondog
November 6, 2008, 04:48 PM
I have to offer a correction: "Tragic" would mean that the poor woman DIED. She did not. She has sustained moderate non-life-threatening injuries. I would call it unfortunate and sad, but not "tragic".

I have to disagree. Her life has been forever changed, and her arm will never be the same. I'd call any life-altering event that irrevocably changes a person's life for the worse tragic. I'd certainly consider it tragic if it happened to me or a loved one, and I'd bet you'd do the same.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 6, 2008, 04:59 PM
Thank you, but no, I wouldn't. I'd be happy my poor mother/grandmother/aunt/sister/wife was ALIVE and lucky enough to live through the ordeal and didn't get hit in the head. Tragic is much overused as a word, IMO. It implies extreme, severe sadness in loss of life. The only way this would be "tragic" short of her death would be if she were to become a vegetable.

It is:

Sad
Terrible
Awful
Bad
Unfortunate
Etc.

Not tragic. The 2004 tsunami was tragic. 9/11 was tragic. THIS is an unfortunate terrible mishap. Sorry, but the overuse of that word is just, well, TRAGIC!!!! (and irritating) :p Remember, to the gun-ban crowd, when a 19-year old gang-banger is killed during a drug deal gone bad by another gang-banger, dontchaknow that the death of that "child" is sooooo "TRAGIC"?! :rolleyes:


it is 3.87 driving miles from the shooting range to TMS. half that in a straight line.

Welcome, harleyman. So we're talking roughly TWO miles, not five. Sounds even more reasonable now.

Double Naught Spy
November 6, 2008, 05:32 PM
So we're talking roughly TWO miles, not five. Sounds even more reasonable now.

harleyman must be referring to Quail Creek. The problem with Quail Creek as being the location of the shooter is that it has ranges where the direction of fire is AWAY from TMS. Plus, they don't allow FMJ and unless things have changed, don't allow .50 BMG. This is the only public range in the area that would be within range of TMS for the .50 BMG. Simply put, we just don't have that many public gun ranges in Denton County, Texas, or gun clubs and Quail Creek is the only one near TMS.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=quailcreekrange+fm+1171+and+I35w&sll=33.096719,-97.044296&sspn=0.295672,0.639954&ie=UTF8&t=h&cid=33065182,-97248959,5945127328109322297&ll=33.154799,-97.215271&spn=0.295476,0.639954&z=11&iwloc=A

dejr2000
November 7, 2008, 08:58 AM
Moss has launched a website telling his story and advocating a ban on sales of .50-caliber weapons to citizens: www.50caldanger.org
__________________

I find it hard to believe that this all happened in 3 days. The man's wife is in the hospital and he manages to take on this cause and get the domain name registered and site up in 3 days? Something's fishy here. :uhoh:

Acera
November 7, 2008, 12:24 PM
I sent him an e-mail and got this response. It seems like a load of BS to me, too set up and contrived quickly. I believe he is an opportunist looking for a way for some cash, notice how he accepts all ccards etc. on his web site.

Read this for what it is, a response to me questioning him on this new cause of his.

evidently you did not read my entire site..

until you've been on the receiving end of one of those rounds you have know idea, freak accident? i doubt it, the more i find out the more pissed i get, you don't know what i know about the incident, Ive read all the statistics ...

the race track takes every precaution to make sure the fans are safe, never did we expect a bullet to come through the roof of our motor home...

this guy is suppose to be an expert marksman with many trophy's in his home, he was 2 1/2 miles from a race track with 200,000 people and 6000 campers in the area we were in and shoots toward it with a rifle that can reach out 5 miles and misses the berm... maybe you can see my point..

i was on a conference call with 6 marine snipers the night we started searching for this guy and to a man they said this weapon should not be sold to the public, my private investigation is running ahead of the police, this is not over by a long shot...

i respect your views,

mel moss


I don't know what statistics he is referring to, I have not heard that many incidents involving 50's. Also the 6 marine snipers is weird, who cares what they say. Why is he running a private investigation? Why not take care of your wife?

This does not pass the sniff test to me.

rondog
November 7, 2008, 12:57 PM
This does not pass the sniff test to me.

It does have the faint odor of poopage, doesn't it?

Double Naught Spy
November 7, 2008, 02:33 PM
I find it hard to believe that this all happened in 3 days. The man's wife is in the hospital and he manages to take on this cause and get the domain name registered and site up in 3 days? Something's fishy here.
This does not pass the sniff test to me.
It does have the faint odor of poopage, doesn't it?

Funny how it is that when our side moves with speed and determination on an issue that we proclaim our side to on-the-ball, smart, skilled, etc. When the opposition does it, we claim a bad smell.

I wish our 2A people could be as expedient as this guy, although a bit more professional and with better spelling. You can get a domain registered in a few minutes. You can have a new web site up and running in less than a day. You can have a CC system up in hours as well. So what is fishy?

You think his wife wasn't shot by the .50 BMG? You think he is doing her wrong in some way? Is it really any of your business, mine, or anyone else's here whether he is "taking care of her" in the hospital enough or not. It isn't like she doesn't have the care of the staff.

The way I see it, he is taking care of her for the long run by competing as much as possible now when she does have all the necessary medical care she can get. He is capitalizing on the moment and making the best out of it that he can. It sucks for us, but he is moving with considerable speed and tact in a manner we wish we could mimic.

His wife is not suffering because he isn't by her side 24/7 to pat her other hand. If he plays his cards right, and he appears to be making that happen, he is helping to assure that his wife will be taken care of for quite a long time as a result of this incident.

Acera
November 7, 2008, 02:48 PM
No I think a number of things about this: some bug the heck out of me.

It was probably an accident, not an intended assault on the race track or it's patrons. (Fortunately for the race track which is probably going to face a lawsuit, either way.)

The man is determined to gain financial benefit from through his wife's pain.

Why is he investigating this himself? More drama?

Why the sudden interest in activism.

I am very interested in learning if the round matches the gun that was turned in for testing. If it does not, lets see if she really got hit in the arm by a falling rifle round. Probably too late for anyone to do definitive testing. I could see the doctors taking their word for what happened and not looking further into the injury.

cassandrasdaddy
November 7, 2008, 03:01 PM
"I am very interested in learning if the round matches the gun that was turned in for testing. If it does not, lets see if she really got hit in the arm by a falling rifle round. Probably too late for anyone to do definitive testing. I could see the doctors taking their word for what happened and not looking further into the injury."

i take it you missed post 42 it might help you

TedP
November 7, 2008, 03:20 PM
harleyman must be referring to Quail Creek. The problem with Quail Creek as being the location of the shooter is that it has ranges where the direction of fire is AWAY from TMS. Plus, they don't allow FMJ and unless things have changed, don't allow .50 BMG. This is the only public range in the area that would be within range of TMS for the .50 BMG. Simply put, we just don't have that many public gun ranges in Denton County, Texas, or gun clubs and Quail Creek is the only one near TMS.

I thought I read somewhere that it was a private range. Also, I think the husband's web site called it a "make-shift" range. Could be somewhere not documented.

Edit: Anyone with a bit of experience with web site tools can put up something like this guy's site in a couple of hours. Registering a domain takes no time, especially if you pay for a domain and site space. They usually provide the builder tools.

Acera
November 7, 2008, 05:01 PM
i take it you missed post 42 it might help you

No not at all. I am just not sure if these people are letting the truth get in the way of their lawsuit lottery quest. As far as I know, the bullet has not yet been matched to the gun.


(Plus if you have read the entire post cassandrasdaddy you will notice it was I who put up the report of the guy coming forward first.)

Double Naught Spy
November 7, 2008, 05:30 PM
No not at all. I am just not sure if these people are letting the truth get in the way of their lawsuit lottery quest. As far as I know, the bullet has not yet been matched to the gun.


(Plus if you have read the entire post cassandrasdaddy you will notice it was I who put up the report of the guy coming forward first.)

I am not sure what being the first to report the guy coming forward has to do with the the preliminary test results FROM THE POLICE indicates the rifle turned in matches the bullet recovered.

cassandrasdaddy
November 7, 2008, 06:28 PM
i read the entire post i was wondering if you did.
to recap
lady gets shot
guy comes forward owning up to shooting a 50 and that he might be the guilty one
police confirm its his gun
and then folks wanna turn lady's husband's website into some kinda plot
i don't get it and i suspect i'm not the only one

Double Naught Spy
November 7, 2008, 08:06 PM
http://cbs11tv.com/local/tms.bullet.investigation.2.858491.html

Okay, we are now at 2.5 miles (not 5 as originally claimed and as would be beyond the the range of the caliber) and the guy was shooting on a homemade range at a distance of 700 yards and the backstop berm (if that is what is being shown in the video) looks to be woefully inadequate in that it is way too low. He is claiming that the round that hit the race fan was a ricochet.

It will be interesting to see if the bullet actually shows signs of ricochet.

dejr2000
November 7, 2008, 08:08 PM
Wow. We've turned this site into a soap opera. That's enough for me.

cassandrasdaddy
November 7, 2008, 08:55 PM
whats drop at 700 yards? did that berm look to be about head high? or was that camera angle?

Double Naught Spy
November 7, 2008, 11:24 PM
Drop at 700 yards will depend on the scope axis height over bore axis, sight-in distance, velocity, weight, and B/C for POA vs. POI issues.

A 662 gr. round leaving the barrel at 2900 fps with a 1.5" scope axis over bore axis that is sighted in at 200 yards and firing a boattail round (as seen in the image of the round), you will have about 93" drop from POA.

Fired level and compared to the bore axis only (not sight over bore), there would be about 129" of drop at 700 yards.

At 700 yards, the original 2900 fps muzzle velocity has dropped to about 2100 fps.

In regard to the berm height, it looked to be 2-4" feet higher than the people standing in front of it...at the highest point. Take a look at the video in the link provided in post #63.

cassandrasdaddy
November 8, 2008, 06:47 AM
so at 700 yards if he miscalculated drop badly his holdover mighta cleared the berm

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