One reason we are losing the gun rights battle


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chas_martel
September 15, 2003, 11:31 PM
is because we are afraid to speak our minds. We have been brainwashed
into thinking that the absence of offensive speach is much more important
than making truthful comments. No where is this more self evident than
at a place like THR. Notice how my speech here must be very
tangential to make my points. Lest my thread get locked.

Do those on the other side of the fence make such concessions - I think
not.

We are even deplored and cut off from "normal" discourse because of the
"fear" of offending someone.

Yep, it does not look good for folks like us. We are our own worst enemy.

Just watch, this post is likely to be very short lived all because I bring this very fact up.

And to think, I have heard people "like me" preach to the leftist that one reason for "true" free speech is so that those that lie are heard far and wide so they may be rebuked. And thus the truth is spread.


Chas

PS: Yes, this board is a private place and someone else makes the rules. However, I believe the goal of THR is greatly watered down because of the low level of expression allowed in the typical post.

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CZ 75 BD
September 15, 2003, 11:40 PM
I haven't detected anyone holding back, nor have I felt stifled. In my world, offensive speech is about the norm. Communication is the only way, as you have pointed out. Don't think the folks are shy about expresssing themselves on the forum and in public.:cool:

Devonai
September 16, 2003, 12:05 AM
With all due respect to a relative newbie, I don't think your characterizations are at all accurate with regards to this forum.

As far as my own life, I bring up self-defense rights whenever appropriate to whomever will listen. The fact that you need the same license to carry pepper spray as a firearm (more or less) in MA is a nice conversation starter and is an easy segue-way into firearms issues.

capbuster
September 16, 2003, 12:11 AM
You have made a good point. Most of us have been raised to become peaceful,law abiding citizens and rioting in the streets and being offensive ,as you put, it is somewhat foreign to us. We are conscious of the image we want to project and we tend to protect this image by using good behavior. I cannot speak for everyone,but I am passionate about guns and shooting.I also tend to be passionate about my faith, my country, my family,friends,ad infinitum. Anyone who knows me realizes that this is who I am and I make no apologies. I think alot of us fail to promote our gun rights by not sharing our pastime with non shooters. Take someone shooting. Share your knowledge.It will be time well spent.

NIGHTWATCH
September 16, 2003, 12:17 AM
I was listening to the "SAVAGE NATION" tonight on how the LEFT is undermining the constitution by legislative activism. A call came in from a guy who was pissed to say the least. Michael Savage shut him down quick, explaning how he did not condone violence. :confused: Wait... you get all worked up at the mic, pointing out with great clarity the cancer that is slowly taking away our freedom, both DEM AND REP. And then calm the crowd when there is a hint to take up arms and fight. :rolleyes:

The only way to restore constitutional government will be to enforce it ourselves.

As far as speaking on the issues, I have been saying for the longest that people like us have to start getting more vocal. Taking the offensive. Moving away from the "Crime" stats and screaming at the top of our lungs that the RKBA is about preserving the right of REVOLUTION, not "resistance", as someone suggested in another thread (good example of how fearful we have become because someone may be watching). :scrutiny:

MY POINT: I would tell you all of how I could care less about being watched in my own sweet way, but I dont want to rattle any MODS with my Brooklyn english. :evil: Outside of this forum, in my life, I dont hold back. I tell people to their face that they deserve to be herded to a field and shot in the head like a dumb animal because they are STUPID! The past is the light to our present path.....Im starting to vent now. :rolleyes:

Bottom line, LESS LOGIC AND MORE PASSION. If not, everytime some scum of the earth kills people and its plastered all over the news, we lose. 1 incident and 80 million are persecuted. How? Better yet, how did 12 million people in NAZI germany allow themselves to perish? The writing is on the wall people. We need to start taking the threat to our freedom the same way we would if somebody paid a hitsquad to kill us and our families. Because its coming if we keep down this road....lets see what happens with the AWB. :cool:

Devonai
September 16, 2003, 12:28 AM
Sheeple: We should ban guns.
Us: You should be herded into a field and shot in the head like a dumb animal for saying that!

Whaa? Let's be serious here. Let's talk about what we actually say to people. Logic should spring from passion, not be mutually exclusive of it.

Remember, negotiation is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.

pax
September 16, 2003, 12:43 AM
While I believe that you should speak your mind, I also believe that you can and should be polite right up until it is time to start shooting. Why make unnecessary enemies?

A lot of wars have been lost by generals who made enemies out of neutrals ...

pax

Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance. --Sam Brown

When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. -- Winston Churchill

Diesle
September 16, 2003, 12:47 AM
Ummm, are we loosing? Really....?

What is there..... about 5 states left that dont have shall or may issue laws....


Diesle

NIGHTWATCH
September 16, 2003, 01:01 AM
I will admit something. Im in NYC. And I think that gun owners here feel the heat more on issues of gun control. If I sound like Im going to act on my revolutionary right sometimes its only because my city council wants to disarm me. I live with this everyday and Im getting tired of it....gotta get out of this #@%* city. :(

Okiecruffler
September 16, 2003, 01:44 AM
I'm not sure that the correct arguement against gun violence is telling people they should be herded up and shot. Maybe you could ask them how they would protect themselves from being herded up and shot? The middle of the road is where our salvation lies, and those people won't be swayed by ranting and raving.

Tamara
September 16, 2003, 02:34 AM
"We're losing our gun rights because I can't cuss on THR."

Hmm. There's an angle I hadn't explored before. ;)

sm
September 16, 2003, 02:59 AM
Never been accused of NOT speaking my mind, try to maintain a bit of civility, at least one level better than the opposition. Now a line gets crossed, my politeness may give way to give it to 'em where it gets past the wax build up in the ears. Language...well been guilty of putting it in no uncertain terms...even on THR.

Actually TFL/THR is unique in welcoming opposing sides as long as trolling is not the basis of joining up. I believe we have members-some even are mods whom once thought anti.. IMO that speaks pretty well of this site compared to others whom immmediatly lock one out. Responsible firearms ownership is what we do here...I'd be curious how many former neutral, or anti persons are members here on THR.

greyhound
September 16, 2003, 07:49 AM
absence of offensive speach is much more important

What kind of offensive speech are we talking about here? Foul language? Racist comments? Promoting illegal acts?

I think people here are pretty passionate about the cause, they just do it in a classy and civil way. A lot of "touchy" subjects are brought up, and don't spiral quickly downhill as they can at other boards.

I personally brought one up about the dangers of the "Rap Culture" and the discourse was great, and that's one that could have gotten ugly fast.

Henry Bowman
September 16, 2003, 09:28 AM
Here is an example of avoiding "offensive" speech.

Last Sunday, after church, we met up with another couple and their young kids at a local park for an impromtu picnic. We've talked casually, but don't know them very well, our 6 year old daughters are friends. One of them asked, "Do you golf or play tennis?" Well the answer is, "No, never found it very interesting." Non-offesive. Non-judgmental. I didn't say, "Are you crazy?" I've got nothing against golfers or tennis players. What I was thinking was, "I'm so busy with my work and family, if I ever had 3 hours with nothing better to do, I'd love to go to the range and shoot."

But not knowing them very well, and my wife being neither an anti nor a shooter, I kept quiet. I would have liked to have said, "No but I enjoy shooting. Do either of you like to shoot?" I would have like to have said, "Some Sunday afternoon befoe it gets cold, lets get a sitter for the little ones and go shoot some clay birds or go plinking." I'd like to hear in response, "Hey, that sounds like fun."

Instead, I will wait and build a relationship, let them get to know me and that I'm not a nut, and then bring it up carefully, gently, treading on eggshells like we've been conditioned to do. (I'm very opinionated, but not an in-your-face kind of person.)

So, yes, we've been conditioned to avoid offensive speech, even in what should be non-controvercial areas of our lives.

NIGHTWATCH
September 16, 2003, 10:12 AM
AL SHARPTON FOR NRA PRESIDENT! :neener:

No seriously, Im taking a friend to the range next month. She came over the house during the blackout and spent the night. She laughed when she saw my shotgun on the wall but it wasnt a laugh at me. She was happy it was there! :)

Half the people I discuss the RKBA with dont trust government. They are open to learning. And then there are some people who just dont get it. I use the GENOCIDE RANT with this group and it usually works. Or at least gets them to think after they witness my passion on the subject.

Majic
September 16, 2003, 10:19 AM
One's opinion may also be biased by their location. Those in large metropolitan, ant-gun climates can very well have a dim outlook on the various gun issues. Others living in more relaxed gun law areas, while understanding the issues don't have such a narrowed view. Note the comment about only 5 states don't have CCW laws. If you are in one of those 5 states I can see your point, but you also have to see that not everyone is in the same situation as you.
Voice your opinion, that's your right, but do so that others may listen to you. Ranting is one sure way to get ignored. Discuss issues with others and listen to their opinions (remember they have that right too), but be careful of debates as they can sometimes turn heated and all said before then is lost. Preaching only works with those willing to listen in the first place and no one likes issues forced upon them. Talk with others who have a different opinion form yours. You may find a common ground between the issues, but you will undoubtly learn something.

seeker_two
September 16, 2003, 10:35 AM
What kind of offensive speech are we talking about here? Foul language? Racist comments? Promoting illegal acts?

I'm the first to say that we should be using the same rules of debate as our anti-gun liberal counterparts, but we need to base those arguements in FACT and REASON. Attacking someone for their race or by using curse words for their own sake won't bring anyone over to our side. Attacking someone's position because they are an IDIOT and their position is ROCK STUPID can show others watching how the opposition's position is WEAK.

Best examples of this technique are Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity.

As for "promoting illegal acts": Now is not the time. In the future, who knows....:scrutiny:

Brian Dale
September 16, 2003, 11:52 AM
For reasons that seemed sufficient to them, the mods set THR up with a bias against name-calling, foul language and flame wars. One effect that I've noticed is that the information density is greater here than on some other boards I've seen (just to be clear, the specific examples I'm thinking about are not gun-related). It's a pleasure to read posts in which people cut to the chase, share their wisdom and skip the irrelevant.

Passion without facts got us gun control. I like THR instead.

jdege
September 16, 2003, 12:53 PM
Over the last several years, I have been moderately active in the gun rights forum.

I've done things like working a booth for our local activist group at a number of gun shows.

I'll never forget one of these - it was held at the state fairgrounds. I watched several people park, then pick up cased shotguns, and then carry them into the building.

They positively skulked. They were looking around them as if they were afraid that someone would see them engaging in this anti-social behavior.

17-year-old boys trying to sneak into strip clubs walk with a more confident demeanor.

So yes, while I'll agree that his characterization may be inaccurate for members of this group, there's far too much of what he describes going on. Far too many gun owners who have half-convinced themselves that there is something sinister about their owning guns.

And it needs to end.

greyhound
September 16, 2003, 12:53 PM
the information density is greater here than on some other boards I've seen (just to be clear, the specific examples I'm thinking about are not gun-related).

I agree 100%. I even find my own "persona" here much calmer and more rational. As I like myself better that way, as time goes on I rarely even visit any other boards.

chas_martel
September 16, 2003, 11:19 PM
Wow. Although this generated fewer responses than I had hoped for, however the discourse was still informative.

If I may ask just one question? If we "do lose" will it be "ok" because we fought
with honor? If we "win without" honor would that be bad?

I always want to win with honor, but allow me to post an analogy. Say
some dark and shadowy figure is lunging at you while walking in a dark alley -
do you "fight with honor" or do you pick up a rock and bash his skull in?

I know that might appear, at first, to be an oversimplifed comparison, but nonetheless, does it make sense?

pax
September 16, 2003, 11:27 PM
Chas,

My sig.

pax

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you. -- Nietzsche

gun-fucious
September 16, 2003, 11:56 PM
Chas,

you should come out to a DC TRT "meet & greet" the next time the MMM has an "event"

i put away my happy suit and make them quite uncomfortable

MMMer "why don't you take a picture of us?"

me "vampires don't show up on film"

i make a point of asking Mike Barnes how Barbara Graham (http://www.tincher.to/mmm.htm) is doing in prison

they get really unhappy when 4 out of 5 attendees at a DC MMM public meeting are pro gunners. So unhappy they stop announcing public meetings.

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