Got into a discussion about firearms/gun control with my liberal teacher


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Auburn1992
November 4, 2008, 07:38 PM
Well today, to start off english class, I decided that it would be a good day to bring up the topic of gun control. Now, he owns a couple of guns but doesn't generally support them.

I decided to show him GunbanObama.com to show what he wants to ban. His repsonse after looking through citations was that the right wing (NRA) would just twist what he was saying to make it look worse than it was :confused:

He then shot back, TO THE REST OF THE CLASS, that it was a proven statistic that a gun is more likely to be used against you if you have one in the home.... And that there was no need for assault type weapons and they only cause trouble.

I have gave him the Gunfacts.info page to look up and see what he thinks. If you haven't been there it is a great place to see some myths on gun control.

Well this is all I can remember of the discussion - and if I think of more I will post it - so thanks for listening to my rant.

AU

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spuscg
November 4, 2008, 07:39 PM
teachers spew 86:1 or whatever that bs is all the time

Texasred
November 4, 2008, 07:40 PM
I don't understand.

He owns guns, but doesn't support them?

Apple a Day
November 4, 2008, 07:41 PM
Hey, LOOK, another teacher bashing thread!
OH GOODIE!!!

MGshaggy
November 4, 2008, 08:07 PM
Hey, LOOK, another teacher bashing thread!

If you think this is about bashing teachers, you need to go back to school. Its about the kind of uninformed, poorly researched arguments that many people have regarding guns and gun control. This particular individual happened to be a teacher.

The statistic that a gun is more likely to be used against you if you have one in the home was the result of a severely biased and unreliable sample. I'm actually amazed the NEJM actually wasted ink on it. The data was taken from a sample of 1860 homes in 3 different counties in which a murder had occurred - not a sample of average gun owning households, but a sample of households in which a homocide had occurred. Most of these households were in urban areas and were also found to have illegal drugs present, or members of the household with prior criminal records. Thats a very serious bias which skews the results so badly the study is absolutely worthless.

macadore
November 4, 2008, 08:12 PM
He then shot back, TO THE REST OF THE CLASS, that it was a proven statistic that a gun is more likely to be used against you if you have one in the home.... And that there was no need for assault type weapons and they only cause trouble.

If he did not give you a citation with quantitive date, then it’s just personal opinion. Ask him if you can use the same logic writing your papers. Will he accept your assertions with no logic or facts to back them?

indoorsoccerfrea
November 4, 2008, 08:12 PM
Not to mention that if you have a gun in the house, there is a 100% greater chance of it being used on you...it is kind of hard for your gun to be used against you if you don't have one in the house.

CountGlockula
November 4, 2008, 08:18 PM
He then shot back, TO THE REST OF THE CLASS, that it was a proven statistic that a gun is more likely to be used against you if you have one in the home.... And that there was no need for assault type weapons and they only cause trouble.

Go back to that class and shoot back about how guns saved lives. The media...and now these types of people love give what itching ears want to hear.

spyder1911
November 4, 2008, 08:26 PM
I can't fault an English teacher for not knowing about firearm statistics...yes they are a teacher, but expecting them to have the "right" answer to every question, especially in an area not related to their subject:scrutiny:

Ragnar Danneskjold
November 4, 2008, 08:28 PM
He's an English teacher, ask him to cite his sources.

RP88
November 4, 2008, 08:32 PM
well, that is pretty much the only way to argue gun control. If they cared about guns enough to research the facts and saw the numbers for themselves, then they'd probably change their minds.

Auburn1992
November 4, 2008, 09:27 PM
Ask him if you can use the same logic writing your papers. Will he accept your assertions with no logic or facts to back them?


Nice point. I'll try to remember that next discussion.

I can't fault an English teacher for not knowing about firearm statistics...yes they are a teacher, but expecting them to have the "right" answer to every question, especially in an area not related to their subject

Well this didn't start because he's an english teacher. This is because of his support of Obama, which I told him one reason I don't agree with O is because of Gun Control. And I am not expecting him to have to right answer. HE gave an answer that wasn't even true.

Kentak
November 4, 2008, 09:32 PM
First, I am a teacher, and obviously not anti-gun. I know many gun-owning shooting enthusiasts among my colleagues. In fact, it was due to a couple of teacher friends inviting me along to the range that rekindled an interest in shooting as an adult many years ago. I, personally, do not know of any official curriculum which is anti-gun, per se. The topic probably comes up in conjunction with other topics, e.g., history, civics, current events, safety topics, etc. If not for that, teachers wouldn't have any particular reason to discuss it. Please note that the OP brought up the subject to his teacher, otherwise, would it have been discussed at all?

Secondly, I believe the statistic mentioned, and I first heard it a long time ago, says that a gun kept in the home is (statistically) more likely to be used against someone in the household than used against a criminal intruder.

I would not be surprised it that was true. This could include accidental shooting of oneself or another in the home, such as the tragic shootings of and by children. It could include suicide by gun by any member of a household, and it could include all cases where one spouse shoots the other. In all of these cases, it is the gun kept in the home that is most likely used. So, while I can't confirm the statistic, it does not seem unreasonable.

K

esmith
November 4, 2008, 09:38 PM
Hey, LOOK, another teacher bashing thread!
OH GOODIE!!!

While the actual intent of this thread wasn't to bash teachers i will jump on it do just that.

I have had some teachers that were some of the most block headed people i have yet to meet. Many teachers have felt the need to inject their opinions onto the young minds of America. Which is the very opposite of what a teacher should do, which is to present facts and let students form their own opinions. Exclamations and blanket statements like, "Bush is one of the dumbest presidents ever," are common among my classes by students and teachers alike. Why do you think young people these days cling so close to the liberal agenda? Where do you think they get these ideas?

Kentak
November 4, 2008, 09:58 PM
"Bush is one of the dumbest presidents ever," are common among my classes by students and teachers alike. Why do you think young people these days cling so close to the liberal agenda? Where do you think they get these ideas?

I have no idea.

10) "Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream." —LaCrosse, Wis., Oct. 18, 2000 (Listen to audio clip)

9) "I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." —Greater Nashua, N.H., Jan. 27, 2000(Listen to audio clip)

8) "I hear there's rumors on the Internets that we're going to have a draft." —second presidential debate, St. Louis, Mo., Oct. 8, 2004 (Listen to audio clip)

7) "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." —Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000 (Listen to audio clip)

6) "You work three jobs? … Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that." —to a divorced mother of three, Omaha, Nebraska, Feb. 4, 2005 (Listen to audio clip)

5) "Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country." —Poplar Bluff, Mo., Sept. 6, 2004 (Watch video clip; listen to audio clip)

4) "They misunderestimated me." —Bentonville, Ark., Nov. 6, 2000

3) "Rarely is the questioned asked: Is our children learning?" —Florence, S.C., Jan. 11, 2000

2) "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." —Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004 (Watch video clip; listen to audio clip)

1) "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002 (Watch video clip; listen to audio clip)

esmith
November 4, 2008, 10:30 PM
Give me links to all of those and maybe i'll believe you. Or tell me where you got them from.

The fact still remains, the political standings of young people are following a liberal trend, a trend that is being made by something. The biggest thing in a persons life in the years between 14 leading anywhere to 26 is their schooling. So lets see, bunch of young people who don't know much of anything plus a school system teaching a liberal agenda equals a liberal majority among teens. Seems reasonable to me.

Auburn1992
November 4, 2008, 10:32 PM
www.gunbanobama.com is a link.

and here is www.gunfacts.info is a really good, and long, one.

JWarren
November 4, 2008, 10:35 PM
To the OP:

I know an English teacher who doesn't share that view. ;)


In fact, the one I am thinking about owns more EBRS than blued-and-walnut firearms.


But he has to watch what he says at work.



-- John

esmith
November 4, 2008, 10:39 PM
To the OP:

I know an English teacher who doesn't share that view.


In fact, the one I am thinking about owns more EBRS than blued-and-walnut firearms.


But he has to watch what he says at work.


I wonder why that is...

*cough..cough*

CRITGIT
November 4, 2008, 10:40 PM
How come the word liberal has come to mean anti gun here. Most "liberals" I know are not restrictive narrow types at all.
My five best shooting buddies would be called liberals by some here but I refer to them as pro gun dems and reps.
I have a feeling demonizing folks with the "L" word will fall out of favor very soon.\
...and again, educate the agnostics and make some shooting friends.
That would seem to be the "high road"!

CRITGIT

Majic
November 4, 2008, 10:50 PM
Well today, to start off english class, I decided that it would be a good day to bring up the topic of gun control. Now, he owns a couple of guns but doesn't generally support them.
Well it looks like you were looking for an argument and got one. You were even prepared as you had links to websites that supported your opinions. Why are you now ranting? Did the discussion not go the way you wanted it to go?

GonHuntin
November 4, 2008, 10:50 PM
Actually had a psychology professor tell the class that she would feel safer if they opened the doors to all the prison cells and let everyone out!!!

esmith
November 4, 2008, 10:54 PM
How come the word liberal has come to mean anti gun here. Most "liberals" I know are not restrictive narrow types at all.
My five best shooting buddies would be called liberals by some here but I refer to them as pro gun dems and reps.
I have a feeling demonizing folks with the "L" word will fall out of favor very soon.\
...and again, educate the agnostics and make some shooting friends.
That would seem to be the "high road"!


Would you agree with the statement that there are a lot more liberals who support gun control than conservatives?

JWarren
November 4, 2008, 11:08 PM
esmith wrote:

Would you agree with the statement that there are a lot more liberals who support gun control than conservatives?


Y'er wastin' your breath. Do a post search and see what I mean.


-- John

jeepmor
November 5, 2008, 12:13 AM
Who will the antis turn to when they try to take the second from us?

As Jefferson stated, we won't need it until try and take it. Will the individual libs see that their policy support created this condition, acknowledge it, and unite against the oppression?

Will they?

I know a "over the top" liberal who owns guns and simply refuses to let the government know that he has one. Yet this same guy votes for the party that systematically erodes our right to bear arms because he thinks Obama is going to actually help us.

An honest politician from Chicago? Pah......leeze!!!!!

Neither side is helping us. Bush would have ratified an assault weapons ban.

benEzra
November 5, 2008, 12:14 AM
Secondly, I believe the statistic mentioned, and I first heard it a long time ago, says that a gun kept in the home is (statistically) more likely to be used against someone in the household than used against a criminal intruder.
Kellerman et al didn't say "used against" a criminal intruder. He only counted defensive uses if the criminal died.

Woman pulls gun and rapist runs away---doesn't count.

Woman pulls gun and fires warning shot, rapist runs away---doesn't count.

Woman shoots rapist, rapist is incapacitated but survives---doesn't count.

Woman shoots and kills rapist, turns out rapist is someone she has met before---that may count as "shooting a friend or family member," depending on the methodology.

By that logic, karate is about 1000 times more likely to kill your kids than to defend against an intruder.

FWIW, I do not believe that Kellerman et al found EVEN ONE instance of a criminal turning a homeowner's gun against the homeowner or his/her family.

More info here:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgaga.html

woad_yurt
November 5, 2008, 09:35 AM
Of course you are more likely to get shot with your own gun if you have a gun. The "statistic" is meaningless. How can your own gun be used against you if there is no gun on hand? It's like saying that you are more likely to have a traffic accident in your own car than someone who doesn't own a car. Or, a standing tree is more likely to fall than is one that is not standing. In Philosophy 101, you'd get an "F" if you presented the above argument.

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