[SGT109FA]

U.S. to hold back some funds from Israel



WASHINGTON, Sept. 15 — The Bush administration said on Monday it would withhold some funds from Israel because of its settlement activities in Palestinian areas.

But the administration said it has yet to decide whether to penalize Israel over construction of a security fence, which President George W. Bush called ''a problem'' for U.S. efforts to build trust between Israelis and Palestinians.
The deductions would come from a $9 billion package of U.S. loan guarantees to help Israel weather a deep recession and fiscal crisis stemming in large part from the three-year-old Palestinian militant revolt against Israel for independence.
An administration official said the dollar-amounts for any deductions have yet to be determined.
The move comes as the United States attempts to revive the U.S.-backed peace plan known as the ''road map'' after a series of deadly Palestinian suicide bombings and Israel's decision, in principle, to expel Palestinian President Yasser Arafat from the West Bank.
''It is important for the administration to consistently implement policies like these in order to maintain a credible role as a broker in the negotiating process,'' said Israel Policy Forum spokesman Jonathan Jacoby.
Israel says it needs the fence to keep out suicide bombers.
Washington has expressed concern at Israel's initial plan to make the barrier enclose Jewish settlements deep in the West Bank. Most of the barrier consists of a metal fence equipped with electronic sensors and tipped by razor wire, while some sections are cement walls.
Palestinians describe it as a new ''Berlin Wall'' that grabs territory they want to be part of an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
''Israel's settlement activity is illegal and it undermines the peace process so we shouldn't be contributing to it,'' said Arab American Institute Managing Director Jean AbiNader.
''The administration must be firm and deduct, dollar-for-dollar, the equivalent of what Israel is spending beyond the Green Line --including funding for the wall (fence),'' he added.

US LAW
Under heavy U.S. pressure, Israeli defense officials announced on Sunday that they had revised the planned course of the West Bank security barrier so that it would leave out a major Jewish settlement.
Despite the proposed Israeli changes, a Bush administration official said: ''We can't preclude any deductions (for fence construction). That is still a matter for discussion.''
Legislation signed by Bush calls for the administration to deduct from the face value of the loan guarantees an amount equal to any Israeli spending on settlement activities in Palestinian areas.
Deductions for settlement construction was expected, but Israel and its supporters in Congress argued that the fence should not be counted.
Administration officials say at issue is whether the fence constitutes settlement activities. ''That hasn't been decided yet,'' an official said.
The proposed deductions would be consistent with past U.S. policy toward Israel, the White House says.
When Bush's father was president, deductions were made from $10 billion in loan guarantees to help Israel absorb a flood of immigrants from the former Soviet Union.
Bush on Monday designed Secretary of State Colin Powell to oversee the loan program.
Israel's Finance Ministry said last month that it planned to sell $3 billion of 20-year or 30-year bonds in the United States in the fourth quarter. Israel, which has never defaulted on its loans, can sell the remaining $6 billion over the next three years.

Yeah lets see how long this lasts! Maybe we should do this with Iraq, Afghanistan, Jordan, S. Korea and other places in the world we throw taxpayer money around.

[bountyhunter]

So basically, Bush will punish Israel for bull dozing Paestinian settlements and building new Israeli houses by:

with holding an amount of money from the aid we give them equal to what they would spend to build these houses?

Wow, that's punishing them. And if they do it again, I say we cut off their Nintendo for a week.

[CMichael]

Actually I would like to see the PA punished for not doing the one thing they are supposed to do which is dismanteling the terrorist organizations.

I am curious how much of the PA's budget that goes to terrorist support comes from the US.

[SGT109FA]

So basically, Bush will punish Iareal for bull dozing Paestinian settlements and building new Israeli houses by:

Yeah seems to be a ploy to smoke screen all the big bucks we float over to Israel.:scrutiny:

[SGT109FA]

Quote : Actually I would like to see the PA punished for not doing the one thing they are supposed to do which is dismanteling the terrorist organizations.

I am curious how much of the PA's budget that goes to terrorist support comes from the US.


They Palestinians are probably waiting for Israelis to guarantee the won't send in death squads first. The Arabs finance the Palestinians and we finance the Israelis. This is nothing new.

[CMichael]

They Palestinians are probably waiting for Israelis to guarantee the won't send in death squads first. The Arabs finance the Palestinians and we finance the Israelis. This is nothing new.

There are some major differences. The PA is a brutal dictatorship that systematically targets civilians to murder. The Israelis target terrorists to kill.

The US targets terrorists as well such as UBL and his henchmen. There is very little difference between Arafat who is responsible for the murder of two American diplomats and UBL, other than Arafat gets international money to continue his reign of terror.

[SGT109FA]

There are some major differences. The PA is a brutal dictatorship that systematically targets civilians to murder. The Israelis target terrorists to kill.

Well you got the first part of your statement right anyway. The Israelis will kill as many Palestinian civilians as they need to, to get to the terrorists.

[Danimal]

Hmmmm....seems like I've heard SGT109FA opine on this topic before.

[SGT109FA]

Hmmmm....seems like I've heard SGT109FA opine on this topic before.

I'm sure you have!;)

[seeker_two]

I say that the Bush Administration should punish Israel by dumping 1,000 tons of surplus arms & munitions in the middle of Tel Aviv & telling the Israelis to "clean house"... :evil:

The only way this is going to end is if one side wins & the other side is wiped out...:(

[SGT109FA]

I say that the Bush Administration should punish Israel by dumping 1,000 tons of surplus arms & munitions in the middle of Tel Aviv & telling the Israelis to "clean house"...

Well that sounds good ..BUT ! The arab world would unite to wipe out the Israelis and Americans for arming them, and the United States is not about to let Israel stand alone and Israel is not so tough without U.S. backing SO! the best thing to do is walk away from the whole Israeli -Palestinian mess and let them wipe each other out without our help. We owe NO ONE nothing especially Israel. Israel and Palestine are capible of fighting their own battles. They don't need the U.S. to throw our taxpayer money at their problems....YANKEE GO HOME !

[CMichael]

Sgt don't you think it's the terrorists who endanger the civilians by hiding among them?

What is Israel supposed to do hope they surrender? Allow them unchecked to blow up pizza stores with their civilans?

How would the US react if terrorists were settings bombs off in McDonalds or malls? Would they wait for the terrorists to voluntarily surrender?

[CMichael]

Well that sounds good ..BUT ! The arab world would unite to wipe out the Israelis and Americans for arming them, and the United States is not about to let Israel stand alone and Israel is not so tough without U.S. backing SO! the best thing to do is walk away from the whole Israeli -Palestinian mess and let them wipe each other out without our help. We owe NO ONE nothing especially Israel. Israel and Palestine are capible of fighting their own battles. They don't need the U.S. to throw our taxpayer money at their problems....YANKEE GO HOME

Care to guess who these same terrorists hate as much as the US?? I'll give you a hint the US of A. What they want is one world government ruled by a caliph. But hey I wouldn't anyone to go after those terrorists. We'll just give in to their demands and we can let them set their dictatorial government over us. No problema.

[seeker_two]

Well that sounds good ..BUT ! The arab world would unite to wipe out the Israelis and Americans for arming them, and the United States is not about to let Israel stand alone and Israel is not so tough without U.S. backing SO! the best thing to do is walk away from the whole Israeli -Palestinian mess and let them wipe each other out without our help.

And how is that different now?...:scrutiny:

The radical Muslims want to wipe us out ANYWAY. Israel is an ally ANYWAY. The Israelis & Palestinians will fight ANYWAY. And the Palestinians will attack civilians of any nationality ANYWAY.

We should just finish the job we've started...:cool:

[Partisan Ranger]

I fail to grasp how some folks play the moral equivalance game in this death struggle. Israelis don't intentionally blow apart infants. Palis do. Test time, folks. Who's the bad guy here? :confused: /sarcasm.

[SGT109FA]

Sgt don't you think it's the terrorists who endanger the civilians by hiding among them?

Hey shame on them if they don't band together and fight for their freedom. They would rather sit and be sheeple. Wheres the men of these communities? Lets be real here, if someone is putting the life of your families in danger you fight back to protect them,.

[SGT109FA]

I fail to grasp how some folks play the moral equivalance game in this death struggle. Israelis don't intentionally blow apart infants. Palis do. Test time, folks. Who's the bad guy here? /sarcasm.

Moral death games my ???. Both sides are wrong here and neither side wants to back down. "Both" sides are killing inocent people. The palestinians are backed by the arabs and the Jews by the U.S. So its a jew-pal. standoff. The U.S. needs to back off and let the jews do what they have too. They say they can conquer and attacker, so let them have at it. WOW what a concept...Americans would save billions in tax money. Hmmmmm so might object.:rolleyes:

[MicroBalrog]

The Israelis will kill as many Palestinian civilians as they need to, to get to the terrorists.

We lost 24 men in just one operation that was part of Defensive Wall.
Why? There was no air support.
Why no air support, you ask? Minimising civilian deaths.

Boris Karpa, IDF Private.

[Destructo6]

Well that sounds good ..BUT ! The arab world would unite to wipe out the Israelis and Americans for arming them,
In who's dreamland is this supposed to happen? Didn't the "arab world" already try the first part of that 3 times and get their hats handed to them every time?

The arab world isn't united any more than is the western world (US, Britain, France, Germany...).

[Cosmoline]

It amazes me that even after 9/11, many folks in the US still haven't figured out which side of the line they're on. What's it going to take?

I would sooner give up on every other ally than abandon Israel. They've supported us more often than any other nation in the past. How many times has it been the US and Israel against the world in the General Assembly? If we stick a knife in that back, then there is nothing left in the US worth fighting for. No moral core at all.

Bottom line--you back your friend's hand. And if you don't know which side is friend and which is foe, you need to get yourself a clue.

[SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI]

Well said, Cosmoline. Clue bats are definitely in order...

[glocksman]

They've supported us more often than any other nation in the past. How many times has it been the US and Israel against the world in the General Assembly? If we stick a knife in that back, then there is nothing left in the US worth fighting for. No moral core at all.


With allies such as this (http://www.ussliberty.org/), we sure don't need any enemies. :scrutiny:

Israel needs to get out of the West Bank. Period.

The 'settlers' have no more legitimate claim to the land than the German 'settlers' did to the land they stole in 1942 Poland, and its to the US's shame that we support this theft.

[chaim]

With allies such as this, we sure don't need any enemies

Right back at you:
From, CDI, Center for Defense Information: "Killing Your Own: Friendly Fire" (http://www.cdi.org/program/document.cfm?DocumentID=1145&StartRow=1&ListRows=10&appendURL=&Orderby=D.DateLastUpdated%20deSC&programID=34&IssueID=0&Issue=&Date_From=&Date_To=&Keywords=friendly%20fire&ContentType=&Author=&from_page=documents.cfm)

"Soldiers from Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI) are the most recent coalition troops to die from friendly fire — a phenomenon also known, with equal irony, as fratricide — during the ongoing U.S.-led campaign in Afghanistan.2 The incident involving the PPCLI occurred on April 17 near the Afghan city of Kandahar when a U.S. Air National Guard F-16 dropped a 500-pound bomb on the Canadians who were conducting a night live-fire exercise at the time. Four soldiers were killed and eight others injured in the incident, which was the subject of a joint investigation by Canadian and American authorities. It was not the only such occurrence to warrant an investigation by the American military, with U.S. Central Command (Centcom) releasing a list on March 29 of ten incidents that “warranted review.”3 The list included the following eight instances of potential friendly fire or fratricide:

Oct 16 & 26, 2001: Coalition air strikes were launched against International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) facilities in Kabul. Despite the ICRC’s being asked to provide coordinates for all its facilities in Afghanistan prior to American military action in the country, details of the Kabul compound were not passed on to the U.S. military. However, in the wake of the Oct. 16 raids, CENTCOM was advised of the location of this facility. Despite this, a subsequent raid on the ICRC compound took place on Oct. 26. This second raid saw two B-52s each drop three 2,000 JDAMs on the warehouses, while an F-18 inadvertently dropped a 500-pound GBU-12 bomb on a residential area some 700 feet south of the warehouses. Initial indications were that the GBU-12’s guidance system malfunctioned, but the raid itself was attributed to a human error in the targeting process.

Nov. 11, 2001: A UN Convoy traveling to Bamian was struck by debris when the cliffs alongside a road were bombed in an effort to deny the route to enemy forces. There were no casualties in the convoy. A CENTCOM report released on April 10 claimed that the convoy had not coordinated its movement with coalition forces and was not displaying UN identification markings...."

They lay out many more at the link than I copied.

Then there is the situation with the Iraqi Police where we shot up a patrol last week, the Washington Times story (http://www.washtimes.com/world/20030912-100556-7771r.htm) (the conservative DC paper BTW). And here is a story from the LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-fallouja14sep14002416,0,3874753.story?coll=la-headlines-world) about the US apology. Note that these guys were uniformed Iraqi police in marked police vehicles.

How about US planes bombing a convoy of Kurdish militia and US Special Forces troops:
BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2921743.stm)

I recall we also killed a few foreign reporters, at least one because we mistook his camera for a RPG. Also, I recall a situation or two against British troops in Iraq, us shooting down British planes, two British tanks shooting at each other, US troops shooting at other US troops in the first Gulf War, etc.

It is called "friendly fire", also "fog of war". It is unfortunate, it happens, and sometimes those who it happens to can't believe it was just an accident. That doesn't change that it is in fact an accident, one of many of the tragedies of war.

Sorry to contradict your conspiracy theories. Sorry, us Jews simply aren't manipulating and controlling things behind the scenes, as much as some would like to think so.

[glocksman]

Those incidents were accidents.

James Bamford and others are convinced that the Liberty was no accident, and they have made a good case that it wasn't. Whereas the apologists for Israel have not made a good case that it was.

If Israel wants peace, they'd better quit trying to steal other people's land.

Eretz Israel is an idea that is simply not acceptable.

Personally, I think the best thing that the US could do is to promise to sign a formal defense treaty with Israel guaranteeing their pre-1967 borders if they withdraw from the West Bank.

That way Israel would be guaranteed security while the Palestinans would have the land to form their own state.

And if Israel refuses to play ball, then cut all aid and we'll see how long it takes for their economy to collapse.

[JPM70535]

If memory serves correctly, the Arab world has tried on at least 3 occasions to drive the Israelis out of "Palestine" The rusults were the same every time. If it was not for intervention by the U S during one such attempt, the language spoken in Cairo would be Hebrew instead of Arabic.

My suggestion has always ben to butt out of the Middle East and let nature take its course. Any bets on the outcome?

[SGT109FA]

We lost 24 men in just one operation that was part of Defensive Wall.

Sorry for the loss of 24 men, thats always sad to see happen. BUT ! Air support for what??? These folks don't have jets , tanks , misssles and the other munitions you guys have. Remember you are dealing with cerazies without the firepower you have so they will fight with sticks and stones if it comes down to it! Many inocent Palestinians were killed 'by accident" and it gets buried on page 6. If a bomb goes off and kills Israelis its front page news. My point is the press stacks the odds of sympathy. Both sides are wrong and until "both sides" stand down this will go on forever.

[SGT109FA]

QUOTE :With allies such as this, we sure don't need any enemies.

Well said glocksman. While I don't condone the slaughter of Israeli and Palestinians, Israel is not an allie of the U.S. The USS Liberty was one example. Israel says it doesn't need us to back them up yet Israel "still" has its hands out for billions of dollars. Hmmmmm sounds like they do need us, well at least for handouts anyway. Someone out there tell me when, where, and how Israel ever has ever done anything for us. When was the last time they supported us lets say like England does...........NEVER! Either they start earning those billions of dollars or stop the handouts which strain the U.S. taxpayers.

[cordex]

SGT109FA
When was the last time they supported us lets say like England does...........NEVER!
You mean militarily?
We've had to literally beg them, and in some cases threaten them to keep them from supporting us with force in every war we've fought in their neighborhood. Why? Because as soon as Israeli forces enter the fracas, all the Arab nations (and Persian, and no doubt a number of Europeans and Americans for that matter) get their panties in a wad and make noises about pushing the Jew into the sea. Plus we'd get a load of "JEWISH-AMERICAN IMPERIALISTS WILL USE THE BLOOD OF YOUR CHILDREN TO MAKE THEIR CAPITALIST MATZOS!" from all over. More than we get now, I mean.

Additionally, England is better suited to project force than Israel, whose military is primarily designed to repell invasion or to launch strikes within a few hundred miles of thier borders - not to reach around the world and police other countries.
Air support for what??? These folks don't have jets , tanks , misssles and the other munitions you guys have. Remember you are dealing with cerazies without the firepower you have so they will fight with sticks and stones if it comes down to it!
Okay, a couple of things. Palestinians have successfully employed missiles (shoulder fired and larger) for years. Calling in air support or artillery to hit a dug-in enemy - even one without tanks or jets or missiles, mind you - is solid military tactics when you can afford the collateral damage. Surely you're aware that we do the same thing all the time. And yeah, sometimes when we do it, innocent people die.

glocksman,
The 'settlers' have no more legitimate claim to the land than the German 'settlers' did to the land they stole in 1942 Poland, and its to the US's shame that we support this theft.
They have no more legitimate claim to that land than we do to Texas, or a goodly number of the southern and western states, for that matter.

[SGT109FA]

Question still unanswered! What does Israel do for us to earn the billions we give them and billions to other nations not to attack Israel?

[cordex]

Question still unanswered! What does Israel do for us to earn the billions we give them and billions to other nations not to attack Israel?
1. It is the only like-government in the area. The rest being either theocracies, secular dictatorships or monarchies. The US has always supported democracy and republics that were in trouble. The militant Palestinians fight - not for freedom and their own state - but for the express stated purpose of driving the Jew into the ocean, to kill Jews wherever they are. The Israelis, on the other hand (Jew and Gentile alike) fight for a much more free society.
2. Intel and a friendly-ish location to set up our own collection stations.
3. Equipment testing. Less important now that we've got our own sandbox to play in.

My question is:
Why do we give money to Egypt, Jordan, Afghanistan, the Palestinians and others?

Do I think they should get all the $$$ and free equipment we send over there? No, I don't. But better them than their neighbors, I say.

[SGT109FA]

We pay these countries basically "not" to mess with Israel. My question is still unanswered!!! Israeli intell is worth sheep dip to us. (ie: 9/11/01) So again what does Israel do to earn the billons we give them and these other countries around them????

[cordex]

We pay these countries basically "not" to mess with Israel.
Not entirely accurate, but a part of it to be sure.
Israeli intell is worth sheep dip to us. (ie: 9/11/01)
By the same reasoning, every other ally's intel is worth "sheep dip".
So again what does Israel do to earn the billons we give them and these other countries around them????
I'd wager that they don't do anything that will satisfy you, and I'm increasingly unsure that they could do anything that you'd be happy with.

[SGT109FA]

I'd wager that they don't do anything that will satisfy you, and I'm increasingly unsure that they could do anything that you'd be happy with.

See attitude without an answer! This is a simple question! Has nothing to do with what "I" like. AGAIN: What does Israel do to earn all the billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars it recieves? Not counting the billions we give to surrounding arab countries not to attack Israel. Simple question just wanting a simple answer.

[ojibweindian]

SGT, how 'bout this?

Isreal bombed an Iraqi "nuclear power plant" back in the 80's that was actually a part of Hussein's bid to get nukes. This one air strike is, to me, well worth all the money we've given Isreal.

[Tamara]

We seemed awfully confident in the performance of our anti-armour weapons prior to Gulf War I. I wonder how we knew how they'd perform on T-72's and BMP's, since the Soviets sure weren't releasing these for sale to the West back in the '70s and '80s when these weapons systems were designed...

Simple question just wanting a simple answer.

SGT109, he answered your question twice. Both times you responded with "that doesn't answer my question!" This is not very conducive to getting someone to remain in a conversation with you...

[SGT109FA]

SGT, how 'bout this? The bombing of an Iraqi nuke plant.

That was done for "THEIR" security "NOT" ours. Self preservation. Try again!:rolleyes:

[SGT109FA]

SGT109, he answered your question twice. Both times you responded with "that doesn't answer my question!" This is not very conducive to getting someone to remain in a conversation with you...

Why ??? Because you and a few others cannot answer a simple question? WHAT HAS ISRAEL DONE FOR THE BILLIONS SHELLED OUT BY AMERICAN TAXPAYERS?

The question was not answered! Something credible not things which beneifit stricky Israel. Thats all I asked.:rolleyes:

[Tamara]

No, it was not answered the way you wanted it to be. :rolleyes:

I'm going to join you now. [Sticks fingers in ears, starts saying "lalalalalalalalalaican'thearyou."]

[SGT109FA]

No, it was not answered the way you wanted it to be.

No thats not the point. I want a dollars and sense answer. What have they done to earn the billions we give them.. Can't you give a simple answer. ..Troops, goods and services, intel, strategic locations, WHAT?

[SGT109FA]

Ya know what Tamara CLOSE this Thread . I shouldn't have expected a simple answer this question concerning Israel. I proved my point and now its only beating a dead horse. :rolleyes:

[cordex]

SGT,
You have been given a number of valid reasons by several members. That you aren't willing to accept them - or even address them - is not my problem. You haven't proved any point other than you're unwilling to listen to others.

[SGT109FA]

Cordex, You and the others gave me sqwat for an answer to justify the billions given to Israel. You gave tidbits of info that doesn't justiy the expensense. As far as listeningh to others...I do when they have something constructive to say. I'm unsubscribing to this post...I proved my point! That no one can justifythe expense of Israel other than "it makes us feel good" Thats not an answer to the taxpayers of this country.....adios:rolleyes:

[cordex]

I proved my point! That no one can justifythe expense of Israel other than "it makes us feellll
You proved conclusively that no one can justify the aid to Israel ... justify it to you, that is. Which proves nothing in general.

As I said before, I'm not sure what - if anything - would justify it in your mind.

[Danimal]

Well, SGT...at least you are consistent. I have seen you spew this anti-Jewish venom on another site with equal fury. If you have ever posted on another topic, I certainly have not seen it.

I still have a number of e-mails you sent me that used some of the most foul invectives and personal attacks when I defended the relationship between Israel and the United States. I don't know where all this anger comes from, but counseling is often covered by health insurance.

[Destructo6]

Not counting the billions we give to surrounding arab countries not to attack Israel.
You have yet to prove this assertion. Let's see some documentation, buddy.

[CMichael]

From the WSJ

The End of 'Arafat'
Even if he lives, the idea of him must die.

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 12:01 a.m. EDT

Reflecting the views of Israel's Cabinet, Vice Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said publicly over the weekend that "killing" Yasser Arafat was "one of the options." Secretary of State Colin Powell of course had to say that exiling or executing Arafat would incite Arab rage, that it would be most unhelpful to the peace process, etc., etc.

The truth is that Yasser Arafat's moment in history has ended. The world would do well to think hard about how it came to pass, after so many years and so much talk and blood, that the era of Arafat arrived at this endpoint--with Israel saying that it may be worth the trouble simply to kill him. How far we've come from the Rose Garden in 1993.

It is a fine irony that Mr. Powell spoke of the need to soldier on with Yasser Arafat while the Secretary himself was standing in Baghdad for the first time. Mr. Powell is in Baghdad because President Bush concluded after September 11, and after the political failure of the first Gulf War, that the years of Western self-delusion about the nature of global terror must be brought to an end. Similarly, the delusions about Arafat also must now end.

"Arafat" should enter history not merely as the name of one autocratic man, but as the name we assign to an entire Western phenomenon of false thinking. "Arafat," we now see, has come to represent the act of self-delusion on a massive, international scale. "Arafat" is about refusing to believe that an adversary is simply irredeemable. Most importantly at this particular moment, "Arafat" is about allowing barbarism, or its techniques, to challenge the political tenets of civilized life.





For years the Western nations that emerged from World War II and the Cold War have been playing with fire by pretending that their world and the alternative world of "Arafat" could somehow coexist. More than anything, this impossible notion reflected political and moral fatigue. Thus in the 1990s, the world came very close to letting "Arafat," this time in the person of Slobodan Milosevic, achieve its logical end on European soil, again. But the United States intervened and Milosevic is on trial for crimes against civilized humanity. George W. Bush's decision to go to war against the regime of Saddam Hussein was the opposite of "Arafat" thinking; it was a decision to refute "Arafat."
If you look at the Nobel Prizes' own biography of Yasser Arafat, you find this remarkable sentence toward the end: "Like other Arab regimes in the area, however, Arafat's governing style tended to be more dictatorial than democratic." That is to say, Arafat by his own choice of governance--dictatorship over democracy--bears individual responsibility for the legacy he leaves.

That legacy includes: the contemporary crime of hijacking and blowing up civilian-filled airliners; the attempted destabilization of Jordan and Israel and the successful destruction of Lebanon as a formerly sovereign nation; and decades of violated international agreements, culminating in the collapse of Oslo. Last year, in a perfect storm of bad faith, Arafat was caught paying for the shipment of arms from Iran to the Palestinian territories aboard the Karine A.

Across these years, the West, mainly the European nations, accomplished the post-World War II feat of pretending that crime is not crime, so long as the motives and politics for the crimes are moralized. The U.S. and Israel participated as well in the pretense, bringing Arafat out of exile in Tunis. The world has learned since that this apologetics (and much direct funding) has made possible any crime, culminating in the anti-moral act known as suicide bombers. Arafat most recently threw over Mahmoud Abbas, and the fatigued West barely sighed in complaint.

This past September 3, in an article published in the Palestinian daily newspaper Al-Ayyam, the Palestinian writer Tawfiq Abu Bakr wrote: "It is difficult to find a greater and more deeply rooted culture of self-deception than that in our Arab and Palestinian arena." But we in the West fomented that culture of self-deception, by perpetuating the conceit that Yasser Arafat--"Arafat"--was the singular vessel of peace for the Palestinians. He manifestly is not.





The Israelis are in the best position to know what to do at this point, though no option--seclusion, exile, trial or killing him--is particularly attractive. But Israel has to live (or die) with Arafat. The U.S. for its part, rather than sustain the Arafat conceit as it is doing now, should say it is no longer going to be associated with Arafat and what he stands for. As for the Palestinians and Arabs, the President of the United States has said many times that he supports a Palestinian state. Now they too have to decide whether the moment has arrived to get past "Arafat."
For those who will scream that this is more "unilateralism," we would say that for some 30 years there were crucial breakpoints, most recently the Oslo concessions and the Abbas opening, where credible pressure on Arafat from important players in the West and Middle East might have avoided arriving at where we are now. It never came. Not once.

Where Yasser Arafat spends the rest of his life is not important. What matters is for the world to recognize that it is time to get rid of "Arafat."

[CMichael]

SGT. Well said glocksman. While I don't condone the slaughter of Israeli and Palestinians, Israel is not an allie of the U.S. The USS Liberty was one example. Israel says it doesn't need us to back them up yet Israel "still" has its hands out for billions of dollars. Hmmmmm sounds like they do need us, well at least for handouts anyway. Someone out there tell me when, where, and how Israel ever has ever done anything for us. When was the last time they supported us lets say like England does...........NEVER! Either they start earning those billions of dollars or stop the handouts which strain the U.S. taxpayers.

Israel was cleared of the incident with the US Liberty by American investigators. The Liberty was a spy ship in hostile waters that was taken for an enemy ship.

I think of all the countries that the US has helped Israel has contributed the most. Oliver North in his book "Standing Firm" gives Israel credit for pinpointing the Achille Lauro terrorists.

Israel has contantly voted with the US in the UN. It has supplied the US with invaluable intelligence information. The US capability of getting human intelligence until recently has been practically nill.

Israel is the only democracy in the middle east.

Incidently the US gives Israel about $3 billion and gives Egypt about $2.9 billion.

Sgt about the bombing of the nuclear power plant --

That was done for "THEIR" security "NOT" ours. Self preservation. Try again!

Sgt you may have heard about he war in Iraq? One of the reasons that we went into Iraq was because of their WMD. What would it be like for the US to deal with Iraq if Israel hadn't bombed the nuclear reactor? The whole world including the US condemned Israel for doing that. That alone makes everything the US gave Israel worthwhile.

GlocksmanThe 'settlers' have no more legitimate claim to the land than the German 'settlers' did to the land they stole in 1942 Poland, and its to the US's shame that we support this theft.

Well, if the arab countries didn't consistently invade Israel for the purpose of wiping it out from existence they wouldn't have LOST the West Bank. They took the chance by being aggresive and they lost.

If Jordan succeeded in wiping out Israel you think it would give back land it conquered.

Also, the UN divided the area into Israel and Palestine. Israel accepted this. The Arab countries didn't and invaded the day of Israel's statehood. So there is no Palestine. They don't get to have it when it's convient for them.

The West Bank was lost by Jordan to Israel and the arab countries still haven't accepted the existence of the State of Israel. Any land that it gives up only helps its enemies in their goal of wiping out the country.

[CMichael]

Me --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sgt don't you think it's the terrorists who endanger the civilians by hiding among them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sgt. >>Hey shame on them if they don't band together and fight for their freedom. They would rather sit and be sheeple. Wheres the men of these communities? Lets be real here, if someone is putting the life of your families in danger you fight back to protect them,.<<

You are missing the point. My argument is not that they are fighting. It is that they are cowardly hiding among civilians. That because of this dispicable act they are solely responsible for the death of any civilians killed by mistake.

During the beginning of the Iraq war the US bombed a cafe that Hussein was supposed to be in. There were civilians killed. Who is reponsible for those deaths?

[CMichael]

JPM >>[If memory serves correctly, the Arab world has tried on at least 3 occasions to drive the Israelis out of "Palestine" The rusults were the same every time. If it was not for intervention by the U S during one such attempt, the language spoken in Cairo would be Hebrew instead of Arabic.

My suggestion has always ben to butt out of the Middle East and let nature take its course. Any bets on the outcome?<<

Oh yeah and Al Qaida and all the other terrorists who target the US will magically dissapear. The terrorist groups that target Israel and that target the US are interconnected. The US and Israel are fighting the same fight against terrorism. The US should do whatever it can to aid Israel in the fight against terrorism.

[sw442642]

Danimal - that's why SGT got the boot from GT. Sent all kinds of weird things to folks. He just has the Jew thing going on when you cut through his crap. His fate here is inevitable. He will lose it and claim the Jews run America, etc. Then he will go off to some other forum.

[ojibweindian]

SGT

You've been given a number of good answers to your question. Most of what you're doing now is inciting anger.

Hope this gets closed.

[Tamara]

Looks like your lucky day.

Closed due to a sudden evaporation of manners and unnecessary discussions of events on other boards.