.22LR stopping power?


PDA






marklbucla
September 16, 2003, 03:31 PM
First off, I understand that the .22LR is nothing compared to 9mm or .45 ACP, placement is key, and that it's better than nothing.

So, how well does a premium .22LR Hollow point fired from a handgun perform on its own? Is it still "completely inadequate" like some say the .25 ACP is?

If you enjoyed reading about ".22LR stopping power?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
cordex
September 16, 2003, 03:35 PM
Fired from what length barrel?
Itty bitty pocket pistol?
Full-sized pistol?

(whoops, reread question and pulled the last option)

spacemanspiff
September 16, 2003, 03:37 PM
not to hijack or nothing, but one moron claimed he like the p22 because 'its got stopping power and its mad concealable'.
yeah it has stopping power. if you duct tape it to a brick and throw it at a BG. :rolleyes: :D

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

Double Naught Spy
September 16, 2003, 05:02 PM
And the reason you want to know about a .22 hollowpoint over round nosed ball is ...

...because .22 hollowpoints are known for such massive expansion?

Aside from being small, what makes the .22 lr not be a good defensive round is that rimfire loads are not known for their great reliability. A .25 acp may not be a good round, but like other centerfire loads, the concern is not with ignition.

As noted, the query is inadequate. How effective is a .22 lr from a handgun?

What length barrel?
What type of .22 lr ammo ( there are a variety of loads)
At what distance?
At what type of target?
Under what circumstances?

Edward429451
September 16, 2003, 05:12 PM
Some may disagree but I think that solids are the way to go with a 22 for self defense for the penetration factor. If its all you got you want as much penetration as possible.

Love them CCI MiniMags.:cool:

mete
September 16, 2003, 05:42 PM
While the 22 has no stopping power it DOES have killing power . In fact it has a reputation of being worse than some bigger cartridges because when it enters the body it is very easily deflected. So the person may not even be aware of being hit but die a day or two later.

Standing Wolf
September 16, 2003, 06:18 PM
Better a .22 than nothing.

C.R.Sam
September 16, 2003, 06:47 PM
What mete said.

Deadly, but terrible at stopping a threat.

Sam

Double Naught Spy
September 16, 2003, 08:18 PM
Better a .22 than nothing is right, but the comparison is at the wrong end of the scale. When compared against nothing, even a soiled kleenex is better. If you have time to get a gun, you have time to get something better for defense than a .22. It doesn't take much space to carry something larger than a .22 with the possible exception of NAA's smallest mini revolver. There are plenty of guns of larger calibers comparable to many of the .22s out there.

I am not harping on you, Standing Wolf, only on those who rationalize carrying mouse guns as primary defense guns because they are "better than nothing." It takes VERY LITTLE to be better than nothing and 'better than nothing' is a sorry self defense justification for only carrying a gun or caliber that is not known to be effective. It is not difficult to surpass the standard when it is nothing.

New_comer
September 16, 2003, 10:59 PM
If I see a 22LR pistol pointed at me, I'd definitely stop! :D


Four of those equal a 44's cavity, witha lot more wound area to bleed from.


So fire every bullet you have and get outta there. You just might hit something vital... ;)

prezzz
September 16, 2003, 11:04 PM
Stopping power of a .22LR is very good..........................provided you have a 100 rd. mag.

WonderNine
September 16, 2003, 11:06 PM
yeah it has stopping power. if you duct tape it to a brick and throw it at a BG.

If you'll remember my ND experience the other week with a lowly Federal .22 long out of a Ruger Single Six, I have no doubt that a .22 long rifle will put the pain on.

No4Mk1*
September 17, 2003, 01:25 AM
I think the .22LR is underrated when you consider a pistol such as the Browning Buckmark. I can fire all 10 shots into a pie plate very fast. That is 10x 40 grain pieces of lead (that is 0.91 ounces) traveling at 1200 feet/second. Many claim this is lousy stopping power, but if you launch the same weight of lead at the same velocity from a shotgun it suddenly becomes an excellent stopper. I would prefer solids, but with .22LR you better choose whatever jams and fails to fire less- whatever brand works best for you.
I still prefer larger rounds just like I wouldn't want to use a single shot 12 or 20 guage. More firepower is good.

horge
September 17, 2003, 01:31 AM
If a .22 is so insignificant, there should be no problem getting volunteers among you to take one COM ---for my own 'stopping power' survey.

Wait.. I'll settle for a thigh shot, guys!
I'll even pay you!
(Would THR subsidize my reseacrh?)

:D

fds5116
September 17, 2003, 03:25 PM
look at one shooting - Hinckley shooting Reagan in 1981. Hink gets off 6 shots of 22lr. One hits Macarthy in the belly (Secret service guy, stepped in front of Reagan); another hits DC cop Delahanty in neck. One hits Brady in forehead; 2 miss; last one hits Reagan under arm, goes thru lung.

Results: Macarthy drops to ground (probably can't believe he just stepped in front of a bullet);
Delahanty goes down;
Brady goes down - central nervous system hit;
Reagan thinks his SS guy broke his ribs pushing him into the car.

One true 'stop' from CNS hit;
2 stops from ? (pain, psychological?)
1 no stop (although Reagan was probably closer to death than the other 3 guys)

Admittedly, that is against people who have little/no expectation of being in a fight, but it is a pretty good percentage, if you ask me.

BTW, I use 45ACP.

cordex
September 17, 2003, 03:36 PM
Stopping power of a .22LR is very good..........................provided you have a 100 rd. mag.
Darn, shouldn't have sold my Calico.
If a .22 is so insignificant, there should be no problem getting volunteers among you to take one COM ---for my own 'stopping power' survey.
Specious reasoning.
I don't want to stand in front of a BB gun either. Does that show that it has significant stopping power?

Ala Dan
September 17, 2003, 03:48 PM
Well, FWIW in my 20+ year's as a former LEO I've
seen more people killled from a .22 LR Hollow Point;
than I have any other caliber, bar none!:uhoh:

One case that stands out in my mind is where my
partner and I answered a "person down" call. When
we arrived on the scene, one victim was laying in
the drive-way shot in the stomach (belly button)
with a .32 S&W Long; the other victim (and perp)
was on the front poarch shot under his right arm
with a .22 LR Hollow Point.

The victim shot with the .32 S&W Long survived
the shooting to live another day; the victim and
or perp shot with the .22 LR Hollow Point was
declared D.O.S. by the county corner.:rolleyes:

So to anwer your question, YES the .22 LR Hollow
Point can be very deadly; especially when a vital
organ* is struck.

*FootNote: In the above case, the .22 caliber
round hit the perps heart; thus effectively putting
him out of action.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Climb14er
September 17, 2003, 04:01 PM
I carried a Beretta 21A .22 LR for years. I might have been undergunned but I'd sure hate to get hit by one, two, three or more .22LR's at fairly close range.

BTW, solid lead load is much 'better' than hollowpoints in this caliber.

Cooter Brown
September 17, 2003, 04:41 PM
I've been shot with a .22 LR--trust me, it ain't no picnic. You don't want it. There's no glory and no background music there when they're messing around with your bones and that drain tube.

If you can shoot a .22 pistol well, it will certainly work in a pinch for self defense. They are easier to hit with and, as previously observed with James Brady, a central nervous system hit will flat right-now drop a human. Period.

I have a "last-ditch" (for use within 3 yards) .22 short Beretta Minx with CCI short hollow points, which I think is much more effective than a .25 acp. It really spits 'em out and tears 'em up.

Use LR solids in winter for heavy clothing penetration and CCI Stingers when clothing penetration is not a consideration. :what:

Dave T
September 17, 2003, 07:10 PM
Ala Dan, like the poster who wants us to take a COM hit from a 22, you confuse leatality with stopping. All calibers/weapons can be lethal. Many are unreliable in stopping an attack. The 22 certainly can kill an assailant but how much damage did he do before he died?

Nero Steptoe
September 17, 2003, 08:05 PM
How long did those three "sniper" victims last after suffering head shots from .22 l.r.?

Ala Dan
September 17, 2003, 09:13 PM
Greeting's Dave T-

It's unclear in my case file as to the actual damage done
by the perp before he expired? I can say this, my partner
and I were on a "look-out" for this same perp; due to a
previous 2nd degree assault occuring earlier in the day.
The victim of that assault was struck in the head with
the butt of a gun; but was treated by paramedics at
the scene. By the time we found the perp, he had
expired!

FootNote: It is likely, that the perp shot the other
victim that I mentioned in the previous post after he (himself)
was shot, and before he died?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

telewinz
September 17, 2003, 09:47 PM
I have a friend that emptied a Phoenix HP22LR into an enraged 19 year old man at 10 feet (and decreasing). The guy dropped from all the torso hits (10?)and lived. My friend who target shoots with only 22's, 32's and 380 pocket pistols moved his CCW pistol up from a .22 to a P32. I am waiting for him to encounter another enraged man so that I can get a performance evaluation.:D

Double Naught Spy
September 18, 2003, 12:19 AM
From No4Mk1*, "I can fire all 10 shots into a pie plate very fast. That is 10x 40 grain pieces of lead (that is 0.91 ounces) traveling at 1200 feet/second."

I just love this sort of rationalization that is used to justify ineffective calibers being as good as more effective calibers. Yes, you can shoot a .22 lr Buckmark very quickly. Of course, you are assuming that the situation will allow you to shoot more than one round. For all sorts of reasons, people attempting self defense shooting may fail to get off more than one round. It may be due to a malfunction of the gun, malfunction of the ammo, change of the situation dynamic where the self defense shooter can no longer shoot because of a mitigating factor such as a bystander coming into the line of fire. It may be that the gun gets damaged, such as by the suspects incoming round. Or, it could be that you are injured by the suspect in some manner where you cannot shoot such as a wound to the gun hand, arm, shoulder of the gun hand. Nerve or bone damage may cause this.

While a single .22 round or all 10 from the Buckmark may hit the bad guy, Dave T is right in inquiring as to just how much damage the bad guy may do to you before he succombs.
---

From Nero Steptoe, " How long did those three "sniper" victims last after suffering head shots from .22 l.r.? "

Supposedly, the shooter is using a rifle, not a pistol.

sm
September 18, 2003, 12:55 AM
What Sam and Mete said.
I have obseved the aftermath of 22lr HP and RN in the OR. Both can deflect and go weird places. Dead is Dead though. Seen numerous surgeries, harvests...bullets do weird stuff regardless of caliber, perform differently than imagined,shot placement is key.

Okiecruffler
September 18, 2003, 04:00 AM
Shot placement is key, but should some monkey set loose a wrench, I want to make a bigger hole.

horge
September 18, 2003, 05:59 AM
Cordex, you're way off.
It wasn't entirely "specious reasoning" --it was inanity as well :)
and while we're at it, I could stop you as a threat with a BB gun if I had to.
I'm betting you could do the same to me.

This can all be silly, really. using something as nebulous as "stoppping power" as either a benchmark or even a unit of measure. To discuss "stopping power" without valid and sufficiently broadly-based statistics (don't even trot out that snow job by Marshall and Sanow) to paper over the huge case-to-case variance in factors like BG disposition, shooter disposition and marksmanship/skill with the firearm, actual firearm used, environment and risk assessment, , ad nauseam... is pretty close to pointless. You seemed to think along the same lines earlier in this thread: some variables have to be eliminated to make use of historical/statistical samples.

Otherwise this is a discussion of Physics, Human Physiology and Psychology. So we turn to Fackler and the like, who deal in more-easily defensible and definable measures like penetration, fragmentation, temporary and permanent wound cavity, etcetera ---but less often something like "stopping power".

So...

Q: Will a .22LR stop a typical BG (whatever that is) under typical conditions (whatever those are) from a typical .22 Firearm (whatever that is) that the shooter is typically-skilled (ugh) with, generally disregarding exactly where the bullet actually hits?
A: The honest answer for me is maybe.

Q: Under those same :rolleyes: conditions (relatively) would you stand a better chance at BG stoppage hitting with .45 ACP? .357SIG? .458 Lott? (well, okay, I'm getting silly)
A: :)


A non-debate.

horge

makdaddy03
September 18, 2003, 10:44 AM
I have told this story many times. But here goes again.:) I know of a little old lady that shot a 200+ pound bad guy Center Mass. (Chest) She shot this guy with one 22 short from a short barrel revolver. In her own words "He dropped like a swatted fly".

TonyB
September 18, 2003, 11:25 AM
"It's hard to beat a 22lr to the tear duct."-Col.Jeff Cooper
His reasoning is that you'll practice more because of cheap ammo,and no recoil.....I tend to agree,however for my life,I carry a Sp101 w/ 38+p+......but if you only have a 22,and shoot it well,I would say carry it.
I couldn't shoot my MKII that good to depend on it 100%.....

Dorrin79
September 18, 2003, 01:50 PM
.22 is not a stopper.

But I'd rather have my MkII target in my hands (knowing I could hit the target with an entire magazine in a couple of seconds) than, say, my Kel-Tec P11, which I probably couldn't hit the target with at contact range.

I would never choose .22 for defense if there was a better option - but I'd rather have a .22 than nothing

:cool:

Double Naught Spy
September 19, 2003, 12:21 AM
Sure enough, the old lady may have shot a guy with a .22 short and he dropped. There are people who have died as a result of a non-life threating wound to an extremety because they went into shock. My CHL instructor is also a Dallas cop and witnessed a suspect shock COM with a .44 magnum before he surrendered. Still vertical, he was cuffed and walked himself to the ambulance and on arriving at the hospital, walked in the emergency entrance.

Yes, .22s kill a lot of people. The .22 also happens to be one of the most numerously produced rounds around the world.

Dead is dead. I love that statement. Assuming the person is killed, then dead is dead. And Cooper or whomever may note that a .22 to the tear duct will produce the desired stop, so will a BB from my airgun traveling a 900 fps. The eye isn't a well protected area. The trick isn't penetration but hitting the intended location.

If you think a .22 to the eye has a good chance of stopping a person, then a 9mm or .45 acp is going to be great and may still be great if you are off target by a bit.

hotshotshoting
August 16, 2008, 03:10 PM
"I have told this story many times. But here goes again. I know of a little old lady that shot a 200+ pound bad guy Center Mass. (Chest) She shot this guy with one 22 short from a short barrel revolver. In her own words "He dropped like a swatted fly"."


people react differently to getting shot all the time.....


for example if someone is on pcp he may not even feel being shot by a .45 one of the only way to stop them is to break the bones holding them if you are interested in actually stopping them...


some people will fall to the floor if they cut their finger....

Drgong
August 16, 2008, 03:16 PM
The .22 LR is would suprise on how many have died from it. However it does not kill or knock out QUICKLY which you need, that and it is a rimfire which have bad reputations for misfiring.

I rather have a buckmark then nothing, however, if a guy breaks in your house, and you hit him a few times with a .22, you might eventally have killed him, but he still might be able to kill you and assult your daughter before he goes "dang I hurt" and die from a holed intestine that gone bad.

sevin8nin
August 16, 2008, 03:44 PM
You carry what you want. If you feel comfortable throwing little 32gr bullets at someone that's fine. I have no doubt a .22 can and will kill someone, but you need to have excellent shot placement, and penetration is key. The ballistic tests for various .22lr rounds show that .22s do not penetrate enough for me to feel safe with it.

I carry a .45 because I like the large wound channel and good penetration. A bigger permanent cavity means more blood loss and tissue damage, which is more likely to stop someone if they're trying to kill me. And you need good penetration so you can hit vital organs.

If some old lady dropped a guy with one shot from her .22 then that's fantastic. But I'm not trusting my life to the stopping power of a .22, or the reliability of a rim fire.

Geno
August 16, 2008, 04:01 PM
Precious few pistol calibers calibers possess immediate stopping power. I tend to relegate the .22LR to dispatching varmints to 175 yards, targets, and small game. I wouldn't use it as a stopper.

hotshotshoting
August 16, 2008, 05:17 PM
where did people come up with the word of "stopping power" the only stopping power actually exsists in movies...


other than that people stop under different conditions... some may only need to be injured while the others need to be physically incapacitated...

there is no 1 true number... other then perhaps a 105mm artillery cannon, and up

Scoutsout2645
August 16, 2008, 05:27 PM
Well, after a recent rash of home invasions in my neighborhood by a gang of ninja squirrels, I've decided to switch to .22lr for my primary HD round... :rolleyes:

On a more seroius note, does anyone have any site suggestions that show wound channel patterns in ballistic gel for .22 solids and hollow points? I'm honestly curious in how the round performs relative to more "conventional" HD rounds like 9mm, .40 or .45 hollow points. I agree that this can be a very lethal round, I just don't think it has the ability to transfer enough energy into your target to put him on the ground, and THIS is the characteristic that you need in a HD round. A CNS shot can do this with a .22, but if you can pull off that kind of pinpoint shooting under high levels of stress in low light conditions, then you're a better man than I am!

hotshotshoting
August 16, 2008, 05:31 PM
i will do the test for you when i get a chance... any barrel lengths you want to test? or any particular brands of ammo?


(i have a shooting range and we perform ballistics tests on a regular basis)

theotherwaldo
August 16, 2008, 05:41 PM
Yep. Except in cases of perfect placement, the .22lr has pretty good killing power but relatively lousy stopping power. It doesn't do you or your family much good if the knife-wielding maniac dies two days after slicing you and yours up into cutlets.
Not the gun/cartridge to choose for self-defense.

Scoutsout2645
August 16, 2008, 07:34 PM
hotshotshoting:
My wife's looking to pick up a Ruger MkIII in either a 5 1/2" or 6 7/8" barrel, so I'd be most interested in those lengths. A 4" in the .38 and .40 would suit me too. For ammo, let's use Winchester (arbitrary choice, but I've had decent luck w/ their ammo and it's easy to find anywhere plus this keeps results consistent)

.22LR: Super-X 40gr round nose and 40gr power-point lead hollow point.

then, for comparison, I'm interested in:
.38 Special +P: CCI Blazer 125gr JHP
40 S&W: Supreme 180gr SXT

then, if you feel the desire to play some more:
9mm, .45 and/or .357 Magnum: pick a JHP you like and fire away

I appreciate that, thanks.

hotshotshoting
August 16, 2008, 07:35 PM
honestly in .22lr the best defensive ammo we have seen has been stinger.. it basically gives you almost rifle ballistics out of a handgun..

i will run these tests hopefully on tuesday or wednsday we will see how work goes if i have time or not!

i will run those for you as well, but i will also run stingers


basically the rough information i will give you is i will show you the recovered round
i will give you a brief description of the wound cavity, and i run tests through fabric, leather, denim.. etc simlulating clothing

R.W.Dale
August 16, 2008, 08:28 PM
With the critters I've shot with a Handgun .22 far and away the most lethal load has been the Agulia 60grn super sniper subsonics. Being so long and heavy they really don't stabilize at all except at the closest ranges because of this they tend yaw and tumble the instant they hit anything resulting in instant death for all the critters I've shot with em. This load kills armadillos faster than even cor-bon .380 JHP's. Accuracy from a long gun stinks but at handgun ranges they shoot OK

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/aquila.jpg

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=299751

Defensory
August 16, 2008, 09:22 PM
The .22LR is completely inadequate for serious self-defense.

The Jeff Cooper "tear duct" quote, even IF accurate, is taken out of context. Colonel Cooper wasn't one to mince words, and he was known to disparage even the use of 9mm's and .38 Specials for self-defense, sometimes even outright ridiculing them.

He made it very clear during his lifetime that he considered large caliber cartridges, like the .45 ACP and 10mm, fired from semi-automatic pistols---to be the best for handgun self-defense.

As for the tired "Shot placement is the only thing that matters" canard, I'll let the former assistant director of the FBI Firearms Training Unit deal with that:

Emphasis mine:

"Shot placement is obviously critical, and our test criteria presume that the shot is placed in the vital area of the body which contains the brain, upper spinal cord, heart and aorta/vena cava. This area runs from just above the eyes to the diaphragm, and is about 4 inches wide.

But, as our experience in Miami amply illustrates, shot placement is only the first part of the equation. Jerry Dove placed his shot perfectly. Bullet performance is critical to translate shot placement into an effective, incapacitating wound. If shot placement was all that mattered, we could arm all Agents with .22’s.

Secondly, perfect shot placement may be difficult to attain in the stress and dynamics of a shooting incident. The larger calibers offer a “margin of error” in that where a smaller bullet may just miss the aorta, for example, the larger one in the same placement will damage it."

Special Agent Urey Patrick III
Assistant Director, FBI Firearms Training Unit
Quantico, VA

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf
....

R.W.Dale
August 16, 2008, 09:45 PM
Defensory I think at this point we all get it. In your world anything short of a 20mm cannon firing HE is inadequate for as you always put it SERIOUS:rolleyes: self defense

and you know what most of us posting on these threads don't care. So please find some OTHER drum to pound already. Or at least some other functions on your browser besides

http://humboldtherald.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/copy-paste.jpg

cornman
August 17, 2008, 12:29 AM
The .22 is out of a rifle is fine for most HD situations. Almost all other calibers are over the top when it comes down to it. If you can get by with it then it works. BTW one does not need 500 HP to get across town when in almost all case a 100hp compact will do the same thing.

Okiecruffler
August 17, 2008, 12:40 AM
I knew a fella once what shot a zombie thread with an RPG loaded with a silver irradiated missile. Sucker just kept showing up EVERY 5 YEARS.
Spooky, ain't it.

azhunter122
August 17, 2008, 12:44 AM
Use round nose bullets and get lots of practice! .22 is a good caliber just I'd rather prefer something else for SD. But if that's your only choice it's better than nothing.

Loomis
August 17, 2008, 01:03 AM
Muzzle energy of a 22magnum from a rifle barrel is equal to a 9mm para from a pistol barrel.

Think about that before scoffing at rimfire for self defense.

22mag from a pistol is approximately equal to 32 auto from a pistol, in terms of muzzle energy. I would consider a 22mag revolver to be useful as self defense weapon. I'd have to think about 22LR some more.

Defensory
August 17, 2008, 02:22 AM
Posted by Loomis:
Muzzle energy of a 22magnum from a rifle barrel is equal to a 9mm para from a pistol barrel.

Think about that before scoffing at rimfire for self defense.

22mag from a pistol is approximately equal to 32 auto from a pistol, in terms of muzzle energy. I would consider a 22mag revolver to be useful as self defense weapon. I'd have to think about 22LR some more.

^Straw man alert!

The .22LR is what is clearly being discussed in this thread. NOT the .22 Magnum. I believe you're the first person in the entire thread to even mention the .22 Mag.

That being said, the .22 Mag's stopping power isn't even close to being enough for me to stake my life on it.

Massad Ayoob and the significant majority of high-level handgun instructors in the country, recommend nothing smaller than the 9mm and .38 Special.

I'd be surprised if there's even one military unit or law enforcement agency in the country that uses the .22 Mag. It has never proven itself as a reliable fight stopper in all the years it's been around.

loneviking
August 17, 2008, 02:44 AM
22LR for defense? My mind goes back through the years to the night a woman was brought into the E.R. having been shot by her angry ex. He dumped the entire 15 rd. magazine of a semi-auto 22 into her at close range. She had to go to surgery, and stayed a few days in the hospital--but she lived and was alert and talking when she came in.

I'm not using a 22LR for self defense...

Defensory
August 17, 2008, 03:19 AM
Posted by loneviking:
22LR for defense? My mind goes back through the years to the night a woman was brought into the E.R. having been shot by her angry ex. He dumped the entire 15 rd. magazine of a semi-auto 22 into her at close range. She had to go to surgery, and stayed a few days in the hospital--but she lived and was alert and talking when she came in.

I'm not using a 22LR for self defense...

Amen to that! :)

hotshotshoting
August 17, 2008, 06:20 AM
loomis 22mag is not up for debate yes it has enough power to penetrate both sides of a normal human skull...


but thats not the only debate with rim fire... the whole idea of rim fire is less reliable than a center fire option..


rim fires are notorious for not having primer around the entire rim and if you just so happen to find the part of the rim without primer you have 1 of the scariest sounds in the world....


for the record the 2 most scary sounds in the world are
a. a click when there is supposed to be a bang
b. a bang when there is supposed to be a click....

Scoutsout2645
August 17, 2008, 11:32 AM
I think the debate has turned into lethality vs. stopping power (which was the OP's actual question) of a .22LR. No one can debate that a .22 can be lethal for targets on 4 or 2 legs. The issue of stopping power, however, is about immediately ending the forward attack of an aggressor. This is either accomplished by dumping enough energy into the body to put him on the ground (dead or alive), or with a mechanical hit--using a round with enough mass to destroy the skeletal mechanics, like a hip joint, when hit. The .22 simply doesn't have the mass to do either. It may result in a psychological stop from the realization of "I've been shot", but even a (eventually) lethal shot can allow a BG plenty of time to attack, hurt or kill you before he actually loses enough blood to stop him from continuing an attack. It's a good hunting round for small to medium game/varmints, but for human size threats it just isn't a dependable self-defense round.

hotshotshoting: the stinger would be just fine. I chose the super-X because that's what I shoot...I don't hunt and (unless they're in 12ga packaging) I don't consider .22 for defense, so my 10-22 (and soon the MkIII) are simply loud hole punchers. But since we're talking defensive capabilities, if you know a better round then lets use that--I'm more than happy to yield to your expertise.

mgkdrgn
August 17, 2008, 01:52 PM
completely inadequate

However, I believe more people have been killed by .22 than any other cartridge, go figure.

Is a 22 a "one shot stopper", no.

Is it better than nothing, or a sharp stick, yes.

Will 99% of the criminal population disengage once they see you are armed with -anything- that goes BANG! Likely so.

IMHO. Your mileage may vary. No warranty express or implied. Void in all 50 states, PR and other US possessions. Any resemblance to any real person living or dead, or to any historical event is a damn shame.

3KillerBs
August 20, 2008, 03:59 PM
I wonder, ...

What is the ratio of criminals who are stopped by the mere sight of a gun, any gun, to criminals who can't be stopped by anything short of being cut in half by that monster gatling gun they build A-10s around?

;)

There are times when its best to make decisions considering the worst-case scenario and there are times its best to make decisions based on the normal-case scenario.

If the weird, window-rattlings thuds that woke us last night had been someone trying to break in rather than just 1am bombing/artillery from Ft. Bragg (we identified the sound after we were fully awake), I'd have rather have had the .38 special carry gun I'm saving for. But I'd have been confident that at least 99% of bad guys would be stopped by the 10 shots of .22lr from my Mark III that I can get off accurately as fast as DH can fire 5 from his 9mm.

Its good to allow for the worst-case, but its not unreasonable to base decisions on average-case.

Zip7
August 20, 2008, 04:38 PM
So the person may not even be aware of being hit but die a day or two later.

I find it difficult to believe that a person could get hit with a 22 round and not be aware of it.

When an ant bites me I'm aware of it.

hotshotshoting
August 20, 2008, 04:53 PM
zip have you ever seen anyone on pcp?

Scoutsout2645
August 20, 2008, 07:13 PM
I slammed a guy on PCP flat on his back on concrete from chest level and he never even flinched--a .22 ain't doing d*^% in that case. Anything short of a mechanical stop will fail to stop him. If you're relying on a .22, pack a lunch...it's gonna be a looooong day.

Orion8472
August 21, 2008, 05:38 PM
The only .22lr I would use for defense would be my Mark II Government Target Model. Multiple hits to the perps head would pretty much stop the attack, . . . . .and that gun definitely has the ability to do so, out to 25 yards.

mgkdrgn
August 22, 2008, 10:01 AM
Zip7

"I find it difficult to believe that a person could get hit with a 22 round and not be aware of it."

Remember when Hinkley shot Reagan? He was in the hospital a good 10 minutes before -anybody- realized he had been shot, including him.

Quaamik
August 22, 2008, 03:35 PM
Is a 22 lr useable for self defense?
Yes. Not only is it better than nothing, it is also better than a sharp stick, ball bat, knife or even a .45 that was left at home.

Is it ideal?
No. Niether is a 9mm, .40, 45 or .50 AE. Pistols are for fighting your way back to the rifle you never should have left behind.

A self defense pistol is a compromise. Small size & low weight vs power. Economics also plays a factor (can you afford the gun AND the ammo to routienly practice?).

If all you have available is a .22 lr, then practice practice practice. Don't trust studies on how well the ammo penetrates ... do your own. Bullets penetrate water roughly twice as far as balistic gel - use milk jugs or ziplock bags. Know your gun, it's capabilities and limitations (as well as your own).

If, however, you can afford a larger caliber carry gun, and can shoot one accurately that is small enough to carry with you all the time, it would be prudent to choose a larger / more powerful caliber.

TheGrim86
August 22, 2008, 03:51 PM
A 22lr is deadly if well placed. If the target is shot enough, it is deadly. There are generally two kinds of people you will face. Sober and drunk and/or crazy. Sober will get pain compliance and panic feeling of being shot if the shots are not in vital points. Drunk/crazy need vital area shots to be brought down. Drunk can be referring to any drug though. Is it worth the risk of saving for a little longer and purchasing something that will suck the liver out the exit wound with it??

Dickieray
August 22, 2008, 05:09 PM
If the the BG weighs over 40 pounds and is not naked......I want some heavy bellets to send his way. Even if you put 2-3 well placed rounds of 45 in the heart or central mass of the body it could take a couple of minnutes for the BG to bleed out and stop. 5 rounds of 12 Ga. 00-buckssot or slugs would be my personal defense choice!

Steve C
August 22, 2008, 10:26 PM
Even if you put 2-3 well placed rounds of 45 in the heart or central mass of the body it could take a couple of minnutes for the BG to bleed out and stop.
Through the heart its more like 15 seconds but that's still time where they can return fire if they're really determined. Remember as the circulatory system is collapsing the abilities of the wounded is in decline and are being increasingly impaired as time passes.

Only in fiction and movies do you see the "monsters" that can absorb bullets and keep on going as if nothing happened. You occasionally read about assailants that continue to fight after being shot in locations that are lethal but they go down eventually though not as fast as you may like.

While a .22 LR may only put an assailant down only 25% of the time with one shot CM when you have to shoot them, as others have said most criminals know better than to push their luck against any armed potential victim. A knife is as deadly as any gun, more so if the person wielding it is trained but I'd take 15' of distance and a .22 LR over a knife or a club.

hotshotshoting
August 23, 2008, 11:59 AM
like the perp who was shot over 60 times with 9mm and kept shooting.... it finally took 3 rounds of 12g to put him down.... ill find the police report if i have time

mobjacker
August 25, 2008, 05:14 PM
I purchased a 22 pistol to kill trapped varmints- raccoons. The dealer said the skull was very strong, and to be sure and use CCI HP. I was worried about going through the skull and the round bouncing around. So being a science guy, I tried an experiment.

Pressure treated 2x4 with CCI HP at 6 inches, S&W 22a semiauto.
Bullet went right through. Tried a 4x4- went right through.

Got some 22 Shorts-
2x4: right through
4x4: slug in the wood
2x3: Slug exited

Now, I do not know but I strongly suspect a single layer of persons skull is NOT as strong as a 2x4, nor is the sternum.

So I suspect that the issue of stopping power is not as significant as the point or impact. Hit something vital and the target is going down. Hit a muscle and it will probably go through.

I only have a 22 pistol- if I need something for defense that will be it.

Personally, as long as I can keep my sh*t together, I think I have a chance. With 10 rounds to bring him down. And on the bullseye range I can put 10 rounds in a 3 inch circle in 5 seconds. And I have 3 more mags.

22 rounds and jamming- yes, an issue. But it beats a baseball bat or tennis racket!

goon
August 26, 2008, 01:17 AM
I'd rather have something bigger than a .22.
In most cases, if you can handle a full sized .22 handgun you can handle a K-frame .38 Special. And even a 158 grain LRN will probably be better than a .22.

But for those who can't handle anything more, I say load your .22 with the most reliable, highest velocity solids you can get and don't worry too much.

USMCDK
August 26, 2008, 02:12 AM
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Nuff said

Jst1mr
August 27, 2008, 01:38 AM
Professional assassins know very well the effectiveness of a .22 round at point-blank range - tends to enter(but not exit) the braincase, and bounce around causing all sorts of havoc. Before getting excited, though, visualize how small a target that actually is, and though you can punch paper all day, can you do it in the dark while stoked with adrenaline? Ever seen what even buck fever can do to people?

Carl Levitian
August 27, 2008, 06:49 AM
I always find these threads somewhat amusing.

Having spent time as a police officer, I have seen .22 shooting victims. I've never seen one who didn't know he'd been shot. In fact, all the victims were either writhing arond on the gurney, or were totally out of it, as in unconsious.

We had one shooting with three victims at once, from an assault. There was this bar on Comercial street in Trinidad Colorado called Giovani's. One night in April of 1978, a buch of punks attacked a couple guys who were not of thier crowd, with pool ques, beer bottles, and a knife or two. The two young guys being attacked fled out the door and into the street. The attackers chased after them. One of the young men being chased had a cheap little .22 RG revolver in the pocket. While running, he fired all six shots back at his persuers. Three of the shots missed anything.

Three did not.

Shooting victim number 1- When we got there just a few minutes later, he was laying in a fetal position, with a bullet in the lower stomach area. He was unresponsive aside from whimpering in pain. Survived after 5 hours of emergency surgery.

Shooting victim number 2- was hit in the upper area of the shoulder, was sitting on his butt leaning back against the wall of a store, moaning that it hurts, he needs an ambulance. Was in a great deal of pain, was not walking around.

Shooting victim number three- was standing around, macho posturing, with a bullet hole in his upper bicep of one arm. Saying how getting shot don't bother him at all. As the EMT gently took his arm and turned it to check for a exit wound, Mr. macho yelled "OOWW, don't move it man!" So much for getting shot not bothering him. I guess it didn't as long as that arm didn't move.

As all three of the shooting victims were of the family that was the town slime, not much sympathy was expressed for them, expept to take up a collection for the young man who had to defend himself, to get shooting lessons.

But, of the bunch of 6 to 8 of the attackers, all of them hit the pavement ducking for cover when fired on, and the three that were hit were done for the night. On capturing the two young guys who were attacked, one was found with a .22 RG revolver that had been loaded with .22 LONG, STANDARD VELOCITY. This was established by a few spare rounds of ammo in his pants pocket. The .22 had stopped an assaault by a group of known gang members, who were at the time drunk, or in some cases, high on something else. There were no fatalities, but all hit stopped what they were doing imediatly.

One other shooting I witnessed in my life, involving a .22 convinced me it was nothing to underate.

When I was a kid, dad took us to the mountains for the weekend. It was common in the 1950's for Washinton D.C. people to escape the city heat by going to the mountians. We went to the Shenedoah National park usually, and rented a cabin. This time we didn't make it all the way. We had stopped for lunch at a picnic ground just outside of Front Royal Virginia. A few other familys were there, and mom had a packed basket. As we were settling in, three men came out of the woods. Rough, dirty, and looking less than upstandng. Two of them had a large sheath knife on a belt. They came up towards our table and asked dad if he had any beer money.

At this point dad had placed himself between us and the men. Dad often carried his old Colt Woodsman when traveling, and this was no exeption. He'd had it since 1937, and it was part of him. It was tucked in back of his right hip, but forward, inside the waistband.

One of the men, maybe drunker or more brazen, I'll never know, stepped closer and started cursing dad, calling him some pretty bad names because dad was not giving them a hand out, saying how he could afford a nice new Pontiac Star Chief, so he should be able to give them a few bucks. Again, dad politly told the men to leave. It was not to be.

The more abusive one took out his large sheath knife and threatened dad. Dad took out his Colt .22 and told the man to back away and leave us be. The man with the knife again cursed dad, telling him he didn't have the guts to use that gun, and then he took a step towards dad, and dad shot him.

The man kind of hunched up and staggered a little, partly doubled over, then cursed and came at dad again in a lunge, and dad shot him two more times. The man fully doubled over, going to his knees for a moment, then falling over on his side and going fetal. He moaned loudly for a moment, then quieted down. After a moment all movement and moaning stopped. The man with the family at the next picnic table went down the road to a pay phone to call the police. The other two men had fled at the first shot, and were nowhere to be seen.

The police investigated, and dad was found to have acted in self defence. The other family as witnesses helped, as was the fact that the dead man was a known trouble maker with a record of assaults.

Seeing someone die right in front of you makes a life long impression. Maybe thats partly why I see these posts and some of the replies, I have to just shake my head. A .22 is like ANY gun, a very dangerous weapon. It will kill you, and stop an attack. I don't know where the mythical 250 pound crack adict is that is going to absorb a bunch of rounds and then take the gun away from you. When you take out a major organ, blood presure drops and the person looses concousness. Heart and liver make up a large part of the center of mass in the human torso. take them out and the person goes down. Some people need to stop reading those gun magazines and the bull hockey they print to sell the stuff the advertisers want them to push.

Is the .22 an ideal defence gun? Of course not. A .38 is better, as is a 9mm. But on the other side of the coin, if you have a .22 and you do your part, it will work just fine. The thing that is going to make a difference is the man behind the gun. Who would you put your money on; a inner city gang banger holding his High Point sideways, or Bill Jordan with a .22 target pistol?

With some economic hard time, some people can't really afford to shoot alot of ammo aside from .22's. What would be better for a person to use if something goes bump in the night, a ..38 or whatever that hasn't been shot in a year, or the .22 they just had out at the range day before yesterday. The .22 that they have been putting hundreds of rounds a week through because they love to shoot, and the .22 is the only gun they can afford to shoot alot?

The human factor is the wild card. It all comes down to the person behind the gun in the end. Gun club comando's who quote Guns and Ammo magazine not withstanding.

Telesway
August 27, 2008, 07:06 AM
.22LR in action. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting)

Lethal but not optimal for combat (including civilian self defense) purposes.

Nematocyst
August 27, 2008, 07:25 AM
Signing in.

My first real gun was a .22 LR
(Remington Nylon 66).

Now I own a Marlin 39A
and want a SW 317.

SD? .38 spl/.357 mag.

But given a rock v .22 LR,
I'll take the accuracy and velocity.

An attacker may die days later,
but at least he'll die.

No Quarter
August 27, 2008, 10:23 AM
Carl,

Thanks for the voice of reason based on real experience and not just magazine and internet regurgitation.

I agree with you completely.

NQ

jackstinson
August 27, 2008, 10:35 AM
+2 Carl .... Thank you for that post.

While I normally carry a .32, .380, or 9mm, I confess to sometimes having a Beretta 21A in .22LR. My right hand is not what it once was and I can shoot the 21A well. I'm not saying everyone should do this, but I sometimes do. If I know I will be in a bad area, the S&W 6946 goes with me though.

BTW: For the Reagan example; as I recall he took a ricochet, not a direct hit. At the time he was being pushed into the limo by Secret Service and thought the agent had broken his ribs...he was in pain and did know that he was injured....from everything I have read on the incident.
By that same example, look at what happened to those 6 rounds fired: One shot hit Brady in the head and he was permanently disabled. One hit DCPD officer Delahanty and he spent 11 days in the hospital. One missed and hit a window. One hit Secret Service Agent McCarthy in the chest. One hit the limo window. And one shot ricocheted off the limo and hit Reagan under his left arm (past a rib to stop in a lung near his heart). Six .22LR's from an RG14...none of the Devastator rounds exploded...but four men required immediate surgery, one was permanently disabled. Lowly .22LR or not, I wouldn't have liked to be any of those men.

slow944
August 27, 2008, 12:32 PM
According to Chuck Hawks the best "stopping power" round is the 357mag with a 96% stop rate. So does that mean we all should carry a 357mag and sell our other guns? Of course not. I used to carry one of the NAA Black Widows in 22mag. and past 10' I couldn't hit the target with it. Some times now I carry a Taurus PT25 or my Taurus PT58 when not carring my Kahr MK9 9mm. Do I feel undergunned with the mouse guns? NO. Because I practice with them and know their abilities as well as mine. My daughter likes the PT25 because it's "cute". At least she has a gun with her when she's coming home late. Would I rather she have the 380, 9, or something larger? Heck yea, but at least she has it.

Blofeld
August 27, 2008, 12:47 PM
So what has more stopping power, .17 HMR or a dime dropped off the Empire State Building?:D

VHinch
August 27, 2008, 12:56 PM
What has really been added to this thread that wasn't said when it was started 5 YEARS AGO? If you must talk about a topic that has been beaten absolutely to death, at least have something new to say, and start a new thread rather than resurrecting one that is long dead and buried.

No Quarter
August 27, 2008, 04:35 PM
Vhinch,

Look at any firearm forum. Every topic other than the discussion of new firearms or calibers has already been talked about before at some point.

If you're wanting completely new topics, here are a few new ones you could try:

"Rolling pin or .38 special for velociraptors - which would you choose?"

"Pencil shavings - how do they stack up against blackpowder for traditional cowboy loads?"

"My transvestite boyfriend wants to buy a polaris missile, should I try to talk him out of it?"

"Anyone else carry a potato cannon as a BUG?"

:)

VHinch
August 27, 2008, 05:32 PM
Agreed. There is really very little we can discuss that hasn't been hashed out repeatedly. However, that was not the point I was making. Read my post -
If you must talk about a topic that has been beaten absolutely to death, at least have something new to say, and start a new thread rather than resurrecting one that is long dead and buried.

I understand that the same topics are going to be repeated. However, there is absolutely no reason to dredge up a 5 year old thread rather than starting a new one.

misterselmo
November 2, 2008, 11:00 PM
These are my thoughts, they are extensive and they are irrational. If you choose to read them, you do so at your own risk, realizing that I may be wrong or that you may not agree with me. I use over-exageration to illustrate simple points and nothing can be taken literally that I have written here. That said, enjoy!

"I have no professional training". Famous last words aside, I don't see the other side of this debate as in close-quarters use of a firearm. If a person is within my arms reach, I am going to revert to tackling, grappling, pushing into walls. In other words, in cqc I will revert to cqc methods. I will not stop, reach for my pistol, pull it out of its deep concealment and attempt to take aim WHILE women and children are on all sides of me as some in this thread have suggested.

Going back to the basic principles of self-defense, your primary goal is never allowing someone the opportunity to attack you. Don't walk down a street at night alone, don't sleep with your doors unlocked, don't walk in to a bar and start mouthing off, etc. If you take all defensive measures necessary you'll likely never need to attack anyone and that is, in essence, the nature of a firearm... and OFFENSIVE weapon.

If you can accept my premise, which is that a gun is for killing. I don't see how a .22 is incapable of being used as an OFFENSE. I have carried a knife now for over a year, and I believe that it is and adequate OFFENSIVE WEAPON (as if there were any other type of weapon) but I take issue with it and its ability to be turned around on my person in a cqc situation. A .22 has at least the same devastation capabilities as a knife blade (understatement) with the added ability of being able to be used from up to 20+ feet away, and god willing, to be able to strike multiple times.

In other words, there is only one situation in which I would use a firearm for self-defense, or more appropriately on the offensive, and that is if a person 1) has a bat, crowbar or machete or something else that I am unable to defend against with conventional hand-to-hand methods AND 2) fleeing is not an option.

No, a .22 can't STOP a person dead in their tracks. The same can be said for a .38 but S&W j-frames continue to increase in popularity by the day. The same is true for 9mm with standard ammunition but people carry those every day and sleep soundly at night. Sure you can carry a .45 or a .50 "hand-cannon". Hell, if you can fit one of those on you, you're not in a gun-sensitive environment so why not just get a SBS and pack it with slugs. If you're going that far, you're probably wearing a trench coat, so you might as well get a fully-auto AK-47 with a folding stock... if you can carry whatever you want then you're not living in the city... so just get 30-06 and "just wait".

As your rounds get bigger your over-penetration likelihood increases. At a certain point, it is guaranteed. Beyond that, you can start lining people up if you wish. A comprehensive answer is simple: if a .22 is all you can carry because anything bigger will leave a big, fat "I'M ARMED" stamp on you then you don't need to hear any more about how it is simply not adequate, or how it is simply going to work... yes, we get it, purists, unless you're firing a mini gun from an apache attack helicopter into a group of enemies you're not doing enough damage. :neener:

To close my thoughts, I have to say that I have a fundamental disagreement with the term "stopping power". A 10-pound sledge hammer has "stopping power". A navy battleship's cannons have "stopping power". A train has "stopping" and indeed "going the other way" power.

My version of the question is simply this, "can a .22 severely injure a person and, indeed, kill a person?" The answer? Yes, and so can a bic pen. But I can't throw ten bic pens at hundreds of feet per second, can I?

:what:

russcoh
November 2, 2008, 11:54 PM
If someone comes at you with a knife, and you shoot them with a 22LR pistol, you'll be dead from knife wounds before they die from bullet wounds... unless your shot placement is insanely good at 5' in an emergency draw.

mljdeckard
November 3, 2008, 04:03 AM
What the OP asked, (FIVE YEARS AGO,) was whether or not the .22 is better than say, a .25 acp?

If I was at the moment of truth was upon me, and I was pointing a .22 at a bad guy, probably the last thing I would be think would be; "It could be worse. I could be shooting a .25 out of a 2 inch barrel."

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 3, 2008, 09:02 AM
A .22 in the brain/CNS has infinitely more stopping power than a .50AE to anywhere else.

Shot placement.

I would go with the heaviest non-hollowpoint round I could find and take brain shots only.

But as mentioned, since shot placement is hard to do precisely in an adrenaline situation, it's not a good choice; also as mentioned, the unreliability of rimfire ammo.

mljdeckard
November 4, 2008, 12:22 PM
If you can actually GET it into the brain or CNS. That's the problem with a .22. Even if the shot is well-placed, .22s have a much higher likelihood of doing what they want to, stopping at the cranium, following the bone, going around with the skin, shattering on impact, etc. With bullets, there is never a guarantee of anything, but with very small ones, the odds are much worse.

When I was 16, me and some friends were out in the desert, shooting our .22s at everything that moved, and a few things that didn't. We're not sure who did it, (except that a couple of us, including myself, were reloading at the time, so it wasn't us,) but one of my friends looked down and had a hole in his belly, right below the ribs. He had an exit wound on his back, about two ribs up. We said a very naughty word, and ran him to the hospital. He walked out 20 minutes later, with three stitches and a band-aid, because the bullet entered at an angle, skirted the outside of his ribs under the skin, and exited in the rear. No damage at all. But some BAD-ASS scars to show off.

jackslayer
November 5, 2008, 12:42 AM
I'm tired of people speaking about how weak a .22 is. Someone points one at me and I will gladly crap my pants. I believe most of us with frontal lobes would be very uncomfortable with one pointed at us and yet we talk about them as though they were squirt guns.:scrutiny:

mljdeckard
November 5, 2008, 01:21 AM
It's averages and likelihood percentages. The .22 lr isn't at the very bottom of the list, but it's close. In an arena where ALL pistol cartridges are inadequate for personal defense There are VERY few worse options than this one.

If someone was pointing it at me? Ok, I would be in battle mode if I was unarmed and they had a brick too. Look at it from the other direction, if YOU were the one pointing it at someone. IF IT WAS ME, I would be thinking; "How could I possibly have been stupid enough to get myself in this situation and all I have is a .22?"

pps
November 5, 2008, 01:25 AM
I had a raccoon that I hit with a 22lr lay on the levee dead...or so I thought. As I bent over to throw him in the ditch, the little bastard bit me and ran off into the field never to be seen again. After going through the rabies vaccinations as a result of the 22lr failing to stop a raccoon after a solid hit to the chest I'm NOT trusting it to stop a BG to my satisfaction.

mljdeckard
November 5, 2008, 01:48 AM
That's because raccoons are devil-spawned thugs.

pps
November 5, 2008, 02:28 AM
"That's because raccoons are devil-spawned thugs."

No, it's because the 22lr suffers from projectile dysfunction (apologies to brassfetcher.com)

Krazy
August 7, 2010, 06:03 PM
I am here to resuscitate this thread!

22LR can be a perfect home defense weapon if your a good marksmen such as i. If i have tracer rounds i dont even need the sights to aim.:neener:

spanky1968
August 7, 2010, 10:04 PM
I killed a 6 pt buck with a 22lr once. Hit him in the neck and he just crumpled over. Granted he wasn't running, but he ended up at the butcher just the same.

Nematocyst
August 8, 2010, 11:30 PM
Welcome to the madhouse, Spanky.

From what distance was that shot?

And how big the deer?

gun guy
August 9, 2010, 08:47 AM
nothing has been kicked around more, especially by dilettantes than stopping power. often, game animals go some distance with a mortal wound from a rifle, in a handgun its iffy at best, in a small caliber handgun, other than a hit at the C1 vertabre its not going to happen, there is also a lethality index that is a better factor when dealing with a handgun. if you are using any handgun, shot placement and good cover are more important than being concerned with the math of stopping power, when the lead starts flying. the 22lr has probably killed more creatures than any other round.

gun guy
August 9, 2010, 09:06 AM
the 32 acp has been used in europe, by both military, and police, for about a century. a 60-70gr bullet at 850-900fps is typical of a 32. recent chronograph tests show the 22lr 40-45 gr bullet in about the same velocitys. the 22 magnum from a ruger single 6 clocked in the 1,450-1,600 fps range, so it can be said that the 22lr is similar in performance to some military and police weapons, and the 22 magnum exceeds both rounds hands down. food for thought.

valorius
August 9, 2010, 09:14 AM
.22LR stopping power?
First off, I understand that the .22LR is nothing compared to 9mm or .45 ACP, placement is key, and that it's better than nothing.

So, how well does a premium .22LR Hollow point fired from a handgun perform on its own? Is it still "completely inadequate" like some say the .25 ACP is?
I'd rather have a .25, at least it's a centerfire.

A .32 Kel Tec P32 would be better, and a .380 would be even better still, there are so many light little guns in that caliber now, why even mess with a .22?

DasFriek
August 9, 2010, 02:32 PM
Modern .25 acp fmj is far ahead better than any .22lr round imo.
If i did use a .22lr it would be a round nose for penetration.
And unless your a good shot you will only make the BG mad if you shoot him with a .22

Before you bash the .25acp anyone i suggest you go shoot some side by side with .22lr.
Then try and get .22lr to feed reliably in a small gun.

I dont ever want to get shot, But if someone is holding a .22lr on me im pretty sure i would go offensive on him and take my chances of being shot and either over power him or draw my ccw myself.

ForumSurfer
August 9, 2010, 02:58 PM
EEEk! It's a zombie thread and all I have is a .22!

Okay, here's my 2 cents.

I was hit by a stray 22 round at just a few feet, very close. It was a hollow tip. It hit my bone, fragmenting (and breaking the bone in the process) everywhere…into the bone and soft tissue surrounding it. The round’s fragments didn’t go very far. My doctor informed me that he felt if it hadn’t been a hollow tip, ti may have went through the bone and penetrated to a vital organ. I feel the same, and I also feel that a hard nose round may have glanced off and bounced around in there until it found a more lethal target.

All in all, there’s too many variables to guess what will happen. Even 45’s, 40’s and 9’s have bounced off of human skulls. There are too many variables to know what will happen for sure.

With that said, I’d prefer to trust my life with a larger, better penetrating caliber. Anything like a 38 special, 9mm or larger is sufficient in my eyes.

If all I had were a 22lr, it wouldn’t be loaded with hp’s unless I were shooting squirrels or other small game. For 2 legged predators, if the 22 were all I had…I’d want a really long barrel (read: rifle) and a hole bunch of rounds on target.

Big Bill
August 9, 2010, 06:06 PM
.22LR stopping power?It works very well on a chipmunk or groundsquirrel. Not so well on a man.

rtpzwms
August 9, 2010, 07:35 PM
OK Krazy you resuscitated this lets see if I can hijack it.:neener:

How much has Hollywood influenced our vision of what we need for a good home defense weapon? example: Dirty Harry
Is our need for a bigger weapon justified or is it ego (mine is bigger than yours)?

Manco
August 9, 2010, 08:06 PM
I am here to resuscitate this thread!

The thread may be a zombie, but the subject is alive and well.

22LR can be a perfect home defense weapon if your a good marksmen such as i. If i have tracer rounds i dont even need the sights to aim.:neener:

On that note, some people can shoot .22 LR faster and more accurately than any other caliber...perhaps that goes for most people even if they can't admit it.... :)

Modern .25 acp fmj is far ahead better than any .22lr round imo.

Modern high-velocity .22 LR loads may surprise you. The performance of these two calibers in ballistic gelatin is very similar when using non-expanding rounds. The only advantage .25 ACP has is that it's a centerfire cartridge, which should make it inherently more reliable in ignition, but there are quality .22 LR loads that seem just as reliable in my experience, as long as they're used in a revolver, anyway.

If i did use a .22lr it would be a round nose for penetration.

Out of a handgun, hollow-points generally will not expand, and they seem to penetrate just fine, too.

And unless your a good shot you will only make the BG mad if you shoot him with a .22

The stopping power of ordinary handgun calibers is a myth--the same applies to .45 ACP, too, let alone .25 ACP.

Before you bash the .25acp anyone i suggest you go shoot some side by side with .22lr.
Then try and get .22lr to feed reliably in a small gun.

Frankly, I don't trust rimfire autoloaders, either, so you have a point there. That said, revolvers have been very reliable for me when used with quality ammunition that ignites more reliably (and also penetrates much more deeply) than typical bulk-pack ammo.

A .32 Kel Tec P32 would be better, and a .380 would be even better still, there are so many light little guns in that caliber now, why even mess with a .22?

Some people are better with revolvers and/or trust them more, and with .22 LR they can get plenty of practice for cheap, as well as 8-10 rounds of effective penetration for self-defense if they know what to use.

It works very well on a chipmunk or groundsquirrel. Not so well on a man.

Anything that can penetrate 13-16 inches will work just about as well on a man as anything else that does the same. Larger handgun calibers are without a doubt more effective, but it's only by degrees and is limited by how well a person can shoot them.

Sure, I'd feel more confident with my .40 S&W pistol if somebody were to break into my home--now that I've become fairly proficient with it after nearly a year of training--but if all I had were a .22 LR revolver, I'd stand my ground with it.

ForumSurfer
August 9, 2010, 10:41 PM
Out of a handgun, hollow-points generally will not expand, and they seem to penetrate just fine, too.

Not in my case. It disintegrated into nothing as soon as hit a bone. It didn't stop me despite no immediate adrenaline rush. I did get a huge surge once I noticed a tiny hole and blood. It didn't hurt until in the er later. Of course, I've heard similar stories about 9mm up to 45.

I still say go with round nose. Hollow tip 22's just don't have much material, no matter how expensive or modern they may be. Out of all the tiny to medium sized animals I've hit, I've only seen 22 fragments from hollowtips, never a complete or complete and expanded hollow tip. They just seem to disintegrate whenever they hit bone. Of course I'm not saying it is impossible, I've just never seen one survive intact.

if all I had was a .22 LR revolver, I'd stand my ground with it.

Absolutely! A 22 will still get it done, assuming you place your shot where you should. I'd keep squeezing till I was empty, though.

orionengnr
August 9, 2010, 11:20 PM
Original post Sep 03
Resurrected Aug 08
Re-resurrected Nov 08
Dragged yet again from the grave, kicking and screaming Aug 10

Either this thread has nine lives...or it needs an ashen stake driven through it's heart. :rolleyes:

logical
August 9, 2010, 11:42 PM
Either this thread has nine lives...or it needs an ashen stake driven through it's heart.

Or a well placed .22 hollow point maybe?

Manco
August 10, 2010, 12:21 AM
I still say go with round nose. Hollow tip 22's just don't have much material,

Yeah, given the small size of the bullets and the anecdotal evidence, I'd go along with that, although flat-nosed or hard-cast SWC bullets would be slightly better if there were any to be found. The closest thing I know of would be the CCI SGB (Small Game Bullet), but it's only loaded up to Mini-Mag velocity, which could be marginal out of a 4" barrel (6" would definitely be better). Well, it should get 12", which would satisfy most people--I happen to have a higher personal standard for penetration, but sometimes I need to put that aside as a separate subject. A solid-bullet Velocitor would be ideal, but I don't think it's being produced. If I had more experience with the 60 grain Aguila SSS, then that might be my top choice, although I've heard nothing but good things about it, and it tests well.

I need to do more research to get a better understanding of .22 LR defensive loads (e.g. is the harder lead that Winchester uses in many loads in other calibers also used in .22 LR, and could it be an advantage?), but ones like the Velocitor, SGB, and SSS can be effective out of medium-sized pistols based on penetration, and the Stinger, which is a failure in larger guns against humans, in my opinion, can make even short-barreled handguns fairly effective.

no matter how expensive or modern they may be.

Right, the expense only takes care of the ignition reliability issue, and the modern aspect is that some .22 LR loads are hot enough to get effective penetration against human targets out of handgun barrels. If you ask me about random loads in random handguns, then I wouldn't be arguing so hard on behalf of the caliber regarding defense.

By the way, I'm really trying my best to make sense of what I'm seeing and learning, not just arguing an extreme point of view for fun. My mom seriously wants to use a .22 LR revolver for personal defense, and therefore I want to know whether it is truly a viable option. To my great surprise, I've found that it is far more viable than I had ever believed (at least in relation to other handgun calibers), especially in the hands of somebody who shoots it so much better than any other caliber. While it's definitely not the most effective per round, it could bring out the greatest overall effectiveness in some shooters. :scrutiny:

Either this thread has nine lives...or it needs an ashen stake driven through it's heart. :rolleyes:

I won't deny that more recent threads would be more appropriate in some ways, but I think that new things are being said and that new information is being offered now in this one.

DNS
August 10, 2010, 04:14 AM
Years ago I had a 22lr SA as my truck gun that saved my bacon once. Would a .357 have been a better choice? Certainly.

But the bitty little .22 did the job as it met the "1st rule" which is to actually have a gun. I carry something a little bigger now but occasionally it'll still get a day ridin' in the truck. ;)

Mike

MikePaiN
August 10, 2010, 07:04 AM
I keep a couple mags for my .22lr's loaded, just in case. The .22s aren't my go to weapon but fine for back up. I happen to have a few hundred 32g HP CCI Stingers from a deal I made so that's the round I keep loaded for SD, if I didn't have those the Blazers or Mini-Mags I normally shoot would be in.

If you enjoyed reading about ".22LR stopping power?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!