Simulating .45acp "push" recoil in a 9mm load


PDA






KegCommando
November 6, 2008, 03:31 AM
I've been on a quest for the last several months to purchase a .45acp handgun after my experiences with the round from several rentals.

To make a very long story short, the quest for a .45 is because I've found that I shoot better follow-up shots with it than my 9mm. I've come to the conclusion that I don't recover from the muzzle flip that well.

I was speaking with a buddy that knew I hand loaded, and as usual, he had an interesting suggestion: Rather than purchase all new everything, can't you develop a load that simulated the characteristics you are looking for?

So, I ask the experts before I shell out my dough.

If you enjoyed reading about "Simulating .45acp "push" recoil in a 9mm load" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
moooose102
November 6, 2008, 07:40 AM
can you find a 230 grain 9mm bullet? otherwise, you can try using the heaviest bullet made, and run it down the barrel around 900 fps. that will be as close as you will probably get usning a 9mm.

Walkalong
November 6, 2008, 08:08 AM
Yep. It would be difficult to do.

The Bushmaster
November 6, 2008, 10:46 AM
One is a small fast bullet and the other is a big slow bullet. It would be easy to match the recoil, but very hard to stop or slow down 9mm X 19 muzzle flip. You might try a 1911 in 9mm X 19. Or... Do your research and get the .45 ACP that you like the best. Or...Practice until you learn to recover from muzzle flip.

jfh
November 6, 2008, 10:58 AM
A while ago I shot 9mm (Glocks), and I never did like that muzzle flip nor did I ever get fully acclimated to it.

I did some real time-consuming "9mm-Heavy Bullet" attempts to solve the problem with 160-gr. LRNs--but ran into case bulge problems because of the 9 mm short case length.

Eventually, I solved this by selling my 9s--I didn't like reloading that case, anyway.

The Bushmaster lays out the options--personally, I think you have a good excuse to go get a 1911--but in .45ACP, and learn to shoot a real man's cartridge.

BTW, The Bushmaster, the snow starts tomorrow here, so I think I will leave on Saturday. Is the barn ready? I still have about 3000 rounds to chrono from the short-barrel project--do you want me to bring my chrono, or can I shoot yours?

And, if the weather gets too cold at your place, I'll move along to Walkalongs.

Jim H.

Jim Watson
November 6, 2008, 11:04 AM
147 grain "subsonic" 9mm is very soft to shoot.
I load the Hornady roundnose boattail which will not bulge the tapered 9mm brass badly.

Walkalong
November 6, 2008, 12:42 PM
I might just try the 147 Gr idea. What powder Jim?

I shoot a soft load with 115 gr bullets right now for general plinking in light guns. Oh, and yes jfh, I shoot .45s too. :D

Clark
November 6, 2008, 12:53 PM
I have a 48 pound* triple recoil spring assembly, I made, in my Glock 19.

That spring is still inadequate for some of the 158 gr hot loads I put through it.

If you were to shoot some of my 9mm handloads in your pistol, it would be a long time before you get your feet back in position to fire the second shot.

Firing 3 shots with stock recoil springs would make your shooting hand hurt for more than an hour.


* That spring force accelerated the slide so fast that the Glock trigger cannot re set. I had to get the NY trigger.

The Bushmaster
November 6, 2008, 02:00 PM
Yup...Just patched the roof of the barn the other day. I amagin we could get that colt to move over for you to have room...The mare? Not sure she will move over...(small barn):D

Sure...You can shoot my chrono...:what:

Jim Watson
November 6, 2008, 03:46 PM
I might just try the 147 Gr idea. What powder Jim?


Walk, I am loading
9mm P mixed brass 147 gr Hornady RNBT + 3.5 gr HP38.
That is a power factor 130 load for IDPA ESP.
CAUTION: Hodgdon does not show that load, or any with HP38 or W231 and a 147 grain bullet. Lyman goes to 4.1 gr with a 147 Gold Dot.

If you want a heavier load to simulate service subsonics, HS6 is pretty good.

Walkalong
November 6, 2008, 04:01 PM
HP38I don't have that, but I have plenty of W-231. I'll just have to try it out. :)

KegCommando
November 6, 2008, 08:41 PM
Thanks everyone.

I'll give the 147gr at under 1K fps, but sounds like I will have to continue my .45 quest as well.

schmeky
November 6, 2008, 09:32 PM
KegCommando,

I have your answer. Load 3.3 (minimum starting load) of Ramshot's "ZIP" powder behind a 147 gn lead bullet. This is a lumbering 842 fps from a 9mm.

Or, change your recoil spring to a lighter weight and load 3.8-4.0 gn of WW231 with a 115 gn FMJ seated to 1.100" OAL. This is a popcorn load and is much softer than any reduced 45 load. In my SP-01 with an 11 lb. recoil spring, it feels like a 22 magnum, giving only a little "push" for recoil.

wanderinwalker
November 6, 2008, 11:50 PM
I've had good luck running 115gr Rainiers over small doses of W-231. Ah, about 4.5gr of it. The problem is they are mouse-fart loads that will only cycle if you have a really, really good grip on the pistol. (I'm shooting them in stock Glocks FWIW).

I've also had good luck with 147gr loads, don't remember which powders I used but I'm sure 231 was one.

Lastly, spend some time shooting a Magnum revolver. It'll be tough to find an autopistol that bothers you with muzzle flip after that! :evil:

KegCommando
November 7, 2008, 12:08 AM
The muzzle flip recoil doesn't bother me in the sense I think it is too much for me to handle.

Thru an odd state of affairs, I discovered by accident that I am a much, much better shot with a .45 ( and I can use all the help I can get). So I started my quest to find a .45. I like my 9's, was seeing if I could cheat and improve my shooting by making them mimic the recoil characteristics of the .45.

I guess the real problem is I was content eating bread and water everyday, and then a monkey wrench was thrown in and someone served up a juicy steak. So I'm trying to turn my bread and water into a hamburger. Ugh.

I'll give the suggestions a shot none the less. I've been living in too confined a box anyways, got to spread my wings a bit and experiment more.

ants
November 7, 2008, 01:10 AM
For what it's worth (and you aren't paying anything) -

In what pistol do you shoot the 9mm, and what pistol do you rent for 45acp?
If they are different pistols, perhaps you shoot better because you grip the 45acp pistol better.

Like many people, I shoot a 1911 better than a Glock, consequently I shoot 45 better than 9. But it's not the cartridge, it's the grip angle and the higher grip I am able to get on a 1911, plus I use a Greider long trigger.
It just works better for my hand, so I shoot better and follow up faster.

This may not be your problem, I'm just sayin' it works for me...

longdayjake
November 7, 2008, 01:17 AM
In what pistol do you shoot the 9mm, and what pistol do you rent for 45acp?
If they are different pistols, perhaps you shoot better because you grip the 45acp pistol better.


Not only does grip have someting to do with it but also the slide weight has a ton to do with it. I have shot several brands of 9mm and the only one that I could actually say was not too snappy was from the glock 17. I own a 19 and don't really get very accurate follow up shots. The baretta is a joke as well as the springfield and the hk. However I have shot a .45 in springfield and HK and I thought they were some of the nicest guns around. So the recoil definately feels different depending on what gun you are shooting.

TonyDedo
November 7, 2008, 01:28 AM
If you already have the reloading equipment set to go, and it's just a matter of buying a few different bullets and testing different loads, than what the hell - try to find that 'perfect' load. It could be fun.

However, ultimately the best answer is going to be to buy a .45. There's NO REASON you shouldn't have one already. EVERYONE needs at least one good .45 in the safe (a 1911, preferably).

KegCommando
November 7, 2008, 02:13 AM
Own a Beretta 92.

Rented several 1911's, and a Sig P220. I rented the Sig to make sure it wasn't a platform specific thing.

Each of the 45's I shot better than my Beretta which I've owned for years. And of course I'm more accurate with my Beretta than other 9's i've fired over the years.

Yes, I have reloading equipment. I've always used 115gr bullets and have never experimented. I just ordered some 147gr to give them a shot so to speak.

Thanks!

Pumpgunner870
November 7, 2008, 12:45 PM
Subsonic 147gr. loads give great performance in my G19 for target practice and IDPA shooting.

Bullet: Precision Delta 147gr, FMJ FN
Powder: V-N330 3.7gr
Case: Various 9mm
Primer: CCI 500 small pistol.

I made up a batch loaded with 3.3gr of V-N330 and started to have FTE problems where the slide just didn't move enough to eject the spent case, very soft shooting though.

I've had no issues with the 3.7gr. load by way of weapon malfunctions and no problems taking down steel plates and poppers in IDPA competition.

KegCommando
November 23, 2008, 02:44 AM
Well delivery was a little slow on the 147 grainers, guess that is to be expected with the stockpile craziness.

I finally got em made up last night and hit the range today.

I used the following as a basis:

9mm P mixed brass 147 gr Hornady RNBT + 3.5 gr HP38.

I used:

Ranier 147gr Plated RNFN
W-231
COL - 1.145

I started with 3.3grs and went up to the 3.5grs. Since Ranier says to treat their bullets like lead, I didn't want to take any chances and go beyond 3.5 since my book lists that as max for lead, and Hodgen doesn't list W-231 for 147gr.

I personally liked 3.4grs the best. Not much difference really. Don't know what Jim is shooting out of, but mine's a 4" barrel if that makes any difference.

I love this load a lot.
I had like zero muzzle flip. In fact I had to wonder if their was a problem and thought the slide might not have even cycled. It caught me offguard. Not at all what I was expecting.

I'm totally excited, thanks gang!

janobles14
November 23, 2008, 03:05 AM
i dont think it can be done. you run the risk of a squib load or a low pressure wave that can do harm. you can definitely get a 9mm with almost not muzzle flip but i dont think you can get one to push like a .45. physics just says no.

bluetopper
November 23, 2008, 02:58 PM
The load I have spent a LOT of time working up and I think is what you are looking for is 147gr cast lead bullets in front of a charge of 3.2 grains of Alliant American Select powder. Shoots soft, powerful, and very accurate and clean out of my 9mm 1911.

rfwobbly
November 23, 2008, 03:36 PM
Keg -
I shoot 147gr 9mm minor in IPSC. The trick to low muzzle flip is to get a lighter weight recoil spring to go with the low velocity ammo. You can order these from Wolff Spring for around 2 for $25 delivered. Get a smattering of sample springs to test. For example, my CZ came with a 18# spring and I'm now experimenting with 12# and 16# springs. This will allow you to even go slightly below minimum listed loads in your RLM.

Of course it helps if you're loading your own. Note that powders for 147gr loads are different from 115/125gr loads. A very cheap powder to experiment with is Alliant Unique.

The most preferred powders for heavy 9mm bullets show up over and over as Unique, WST, N330, etc. A quick look at page 2 of the VV powder booklet (Click Here) (http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_upload/esitteet/VihtavuoriInternationalReloguideJuly2008.pdf) will show you that all the equivalent powders lay in the general area along a line between Unique and N330. Check it out.

Hope this helps.

If you enjoyed reading about "Simulating .45acp "push" recoil in a 9mm load" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!