Ammoman x39 prices. They only sell if people buy accept scalping.


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Ignition Override
November 7, 2008, 02:49 AM
Pardon the typo up there.
Why would people pay much more than about $210 per thousand for 7.62x39?
Their prices have jumped $50 in one week....because people can't control their fear?

Did they assume last spring that Obama would never get elected? Apparently, many wanted to wait until after the election and then be sure that they are pushed into a dark corner.

For many, it was their choice not to buy some in advance, all else (having a job with no major personal problems etc) being equal.
A succesful seller always needs a buyer to say "That is acceptable".
Ammoman lost me as a customer. For a while they were my favorite.

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HorseSoldier
November 7, 2008, 03:28 AM
He doesn't ship to Alaska, so lost me as a customer a while back. Midway USA did the same thing, come to think of it . . .

rangerruck
November 7, 2008, 04:49 AM
Academy is selling for 2.99 a box, and ammunitiontogo.com sells it by the case, for between 110. and about 130., depending on mfgr., for new.

lowtech1
November 7, 2008, 04:51 AM
ammunitiontogo.com sells it by the case, for between 110. and about 130., depending on mfgr., for new.

By case you mean 1k rounds? b/c theyre up there with ammoman.



AM had it at $229 yesterday

$249 now? Eeesh.

Hoplophile
November 7, 2008, 05:01 AM
He's called Scammoman for a reason.

rob_s
November 7, 2008, 06:38 AM
Funny how quickly so-called "conservatives" turn into socialists when capitalism hurts their own wallets.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
November 7, 2008, 06:44 AM
If everyone would just stop buying all gun-related goods for some time, the prices would drop like a lead balloon - within a week, GUARANTEED!

I purchased a couple bricks of primers I needed and 500 pills (bullets alone) that I needed, and I made a decision that I'm going to live with what I have.

NO MORE GUN-RELATED PURCHASES FOR ME!

And, I don't really have what one would consider a stockpile of ammunition, guns, etc. Heck, you could easily fit most, if not all of what I have into an upright gun safe (including my reloading stuff - that is if I wanted to unbolt the press from my workbench).

hags
November 7, 2008, 07:43 AM
Funny how quickly so-called "conservatives" turn into socialists when capitalism hurts their own wallets.

What does socialism have to do with anything in this thread? People are bitching about prices going up. The reason prices are shooting up is demand is high right now and dealers see they can raise prices and make more. The answer to that is...............

Don't buy! When disreputable dealers have this stuff sitting on their shelves for a year or so the prices will drop quickly.
I know most can't afford inventory to sit so it won't take that long.

rob_s
November 7, 2008, 08:19 AM
What does socialism have to do with anything in this thread?
Everything?

Expecting a business to NOT get every cent of profit they can from every single transaction they can is a socialist (or communist, you pick) core idea.

I believe there was also previously mention of "price gouging" (before people started editing posts) which is a non-existent concept in a capitalist market.

Ammoman has the right to charge whatever he wants, and he will charge whatever the market will bear. People simultaneously make fun of those that didn't stock up early, and then bitch about the high prices it causes. If you stocked up early, what do you care what the price is today? You shouldn't be paying it, since you're all stocked up.

CajunBass
November 7, 2008, 09:01 AM
What does socialism have to do with anything in this thread?

Everything?

Expecting a business to NOT get every cent of profit they can from every single transaction they can is a socialist (or communist, you pick) core idea.

Well, no. Not exactly. It's only socialistic or communistic if you expect the GOVERNMENT to step in and regulate prices for you. Until then it's just weaping, moaning, and gnashing of teeth.

pbearperry
November 7, 2008, 09:39 AM
Nobody ships ammo or components to Massacrapsetts.Shooters are forced to buy locally.

1 old 0311
November 7, 2008, 10:16 AM
It ain't gonna get better kids. Should have bought months ago...........LOTS of us did.:neener::neener::neener::neener:

benzy2
November 7, 2008, 12:26 PM
Honestly I think it is the best thing to happen in a while. Yeah prices right now suck but everyone is stocking up. Everyone is buying everything. The local stores are all basically empty. I can understand them raising prices. I won't buy from them because of it but I understand it. I will support the guy who keeps his prices where they are. Same thing when 9-11 happened. Only one gas station didn't raise prices. I have gone to them since. They were the only ones to not prey on the public's fear and I respect that.

As for why I think this is good. One it brought us out of a really slow time in the firearm industry. I am fairly close with a few of the local stores and they were all complaining about slow sales. Many were sitting on a lot of inventory that they couldn't move. Some were selling below cost to pay bills that had come due. This past week has brought these same store back to life and that is a good thing. The second reason I think it is good is that I am stacked up on everything I need to shoot for a while. I figure by the time I am out of what I have everyone else will still be working on what they stored up on. Since relatively few will be buying prices will drop to at least what they were a week ago if not lower. I have heard that the next few shipments into the US are going to be cheaper than the last ones as well but I will have to see that when it happens. I just see us at a point where once this panic settles the stores are going to be again sitting on inventory they bought for the panic which is going to drop prices. If they don't drop, well thats how it goes and Im still going to shoot.

hags
November 7, 2008, 01:46 PM
Honestly I think it is the best thing to happen in a while. Yeah prices right now suck but everyone is stocking up. Everyone is buying everything. The local stores are all basically empty. I can understand them raising prices. I won't buy from them because of it but I understand it. I will support the guy who keeps his prices where they are. Same thing when 9-11 happened. Only one gas station didn't raise prices. I have gone to them since. They were the only ones to not prey on the public's fear and I respect that.

As for why I think this is good. One it brought us out of a really slow time in the firearm industry. I am fairly close with a few of the local stores and they were all complaining about slow sales. Many were sitting on a lot of inventory that they couldn't move. Some were selling below cost to pay bills that had come due. This past week has brought these same store back to life and that is a good thing. The second reason I think it is good is that I am stacked up on everything I need to shoot for a while. I figure by the time I am out of what I have everyone else will still be working on what they stored up on. Since relatively few will be buying prices will drop to at least what they were a week ago if not lower. I have heard that the next few shipments into the US are going to be cheaper than the last ones as well but I will have to see that when it happens. I just see us at a point where once this panic settles the stores are going to be again sitting on inventory they bought for the panic which is going to drop prices. If they don't drop, well thats how it goes and Im still going to shoot.

With more pressing matters on the table I don't think the new administration will focus on gun conrol or an AWB immediately.
I think more than a few people will get burned by "fear" marketing. When no AWB has been announced a year down the road those same dealers will be sitting on some of these items for along time (in retail time).
My sales have gone up, way up, but I don't rape people and I want them to come back.
I think it's safe to assume the AWB will come up at some point. Most knowledgable people, my customers included know this. It doesn't make sense to run around announcing the sky is falling though.

nathan
November 7, 2008, 01:46 PM
The reason prices go up bec of scams like this . Dont buy from this dealer. He is making a bad name for ammo dealers.

drgrenthum
November 7, 2008, 02:06 PM
I am excited by all this. While i dont have a huge stock pile (600rds of 223, 300rds of .40 and 4 bricks of 22lr) I know that prices are going to drop like a rock in a few months.

Right now every gun store is ordering in massive quanitities, trying to get as much inventory as they can possibly get to take advantage of the run. When the bubble burst alot of them are going to be left with alot of inventory sitting on their shelves. Some of the smaller outfits will panic and drop their prices to lower then ever so that they dont get caught with stuff they cant move. That is when i will step in and help them out. :)

scarysuperd
November 7, 2008, 02:09 PM
I emailed wolf...this is what they wrote me back;


I wrote

___________________________________________________
I would kindly request to know if there is a real shortage of 7.62 x 39, and
what are the future shipments of this ammo into the USA before January.

Thanks So Much Guys!

-***


____________________________________________________


Dear ***,

There is no shortage of this ammunition. Shipments have and will remain
consistent.

Sincerely,

WOLF Ammunition


_____________________________________________________

That's honestly what was responded to my question.

jackdanson
November 7, 2008, 02:13 PM
I believe there was also previously mention of "price gouging" (before people started editing posts) which is a non-existent concept in a capitalist market.

Just because you believe something should be legal, doesn't mean you condone it. Price gouging, though I don't have a legal problem with, is unethical. That means I can take my money elsewhere if I so choose.

On the other hand, demand has skyrocketed, meaning people can legitimately raise prices. Ammoman may have had to hire in some temp help to get stuff out the door fast enough, meaning higher prices.

Not a prob for me, I bought 2 weeks ago, when people were still claiming everything was going to be the same post-election.

ilbob
November 7, 2008, 02:16 PM
The way things work in a free market is that when demand is up, prices go up. Perhaps they no longer teach real economics in high school these days.

If a seller is pricing himself out of the market, people will stop buying from him.

It will adjust itself in a few weeks.

Keep in mind that the price of copper and lead is going down and that will push ammo prices down too.

Give it a few months.

james rogers
November 7, 2008, 02:25 PM
Well...I do without when prices are too high or I groan and go ahead and pay the price. Theres no reason to blame anyone but myself if I am dumb enough to pay an inflated price like I sometimes I do. The deal is.. I always remember who I got a good deal from and who I didn't.

If consumers stop giving these guys money starting immediately, some of them will feel the pinch quick and lower their prices,

After the price comes down, what if we remembered and continued not to give them our money ?...now thats when they will really get the message.

By the way I support anyones right to run prices up when they feel like they can get away with it.

My right is to choose not buy from them and help them get away with it.

SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

Gun Slinger
November 7, 2008, 02:50 PM
Funny...nobody likes the idea of price escalation (call it "scalping" or "gouging" if you want) when the cost affects their pocket book.

However, I suspect that if those doing all the whining and complaining were in the same business they would be doing the very same thing. The point of running a business is to make as much in the way of profit as is possible and there is nothing "un-American" about it. Being mad :cuss: at businesses for being successful, even in these difficult economic times, is not only absurd but it is also what being a Socialist is all about.

james rogers makes an excellent point above-


If consumers stop giving these guys money starting immediately, some of them will feel the pinch quick and lower their prices

This is how the "free market" operates and the chief underpinning of the "free market" priniciple is that merchandisers charge for their goods what the market will bear for that particular commodity. Apparently, the market supported by the current conditions will support the pricing structure of more than $219/1000 rounds of 7.62x39. In two months, it may be better......or it may not.

Don't like it ?

Don't buy it !

FourTeeFive
November 7, 2008, 02:57 PM
Ammunitiontogo seems to be a little higher than Ammoman, and I'm not sure if they have free shipping like Ammoman.

Ammoman isn't even accepting any new orders for a couple of days. There's a notice on their website. Good problem to have for them!

Gun Slinger
November 7, 2008, 03:11 PM
4T5,

"A.T.G." charges separately for shipping.

hags
November 7, 2008, 03:19 PM
I am excited by all this. While i dont have a huge stock pile (600rds of 223, 300rds of .40 and 4 bricks of 22lr) I know that prices are going to drop like a rock in a few months.

Right now every gun store is ordering in massive quanitities, trying to get as much inventory as they can possibly get to take advantage of the run. When the bubble burst alot of them are going to be left with alot of inventory sitting on their shelves. Some of the smaller outfits will panic and drop their prices to lower then ever so that they dont get caught with stuff they cant move. That is when i will step in and help them out.

Yep, you got it. I wouldn't say "drop like a rock" but they'll come back down. Funny thing is ammo prices were dropping and availability was going up. :(

hags
November 7, 2008, 03:22 PM
Funny...nobody likes the idea of price escalation (call it "scalping" or "gouging" if you want) when the cost affects their pocket book.

However, I suspect that if those doing all the whining and complaining were in the same business they would be doing the very same thing. The point of running a business is to make as much in the way of profit as is possible and there is nothing "un-American" about it. Being mad at businesses for being successful, even in these difficult economic times, is not only absurd but it is also what being a Socialist is all about.

I'm in the business and I haven't raised prices. The increase in volume is good enough for me. Most of these places raising prices were overpriced to begin with.
You know what, people aren't so stupid, at least not gun buyers so I would expect them to shop elsewhere.
I don't think people think that way and that's certainly NOT what socialism is all about.

ugaarguy
November 7, 2008, 03:29 PM
I emailed wolf...this is what they wrote me back;


I wrote

___________________________________________________
I would kindly request to know if there is a real shortage of 7.62 x 39, and
what are the future shipments of this ammo into the USA before January.

Thanks So Much Guys!

-***


____________________________________________________


Dear ***,

There is no shortage of this ammunition. Shipments have and will remain
consistent.

Sincerely,

WOLF Ammunition


_____________________________________________________

That's honestly what was responded to my question.
Supply remaining consistent in the face of increasing demand equates to price increase. This is Econ 101 folks. Look up supply and demand curves.

nathan
November 7, 2008, 03:35 PM
Wait till we pull out of Iraq in years time. AMmo prices will go down as more surplus comes our way.

Gun Slinger
November 7, 2008, 03:47 PM
Funny...nobody likes the idea of price escalation (call it "scalping" or "gouging" if you want) when the cost affects their pocket book.

However, I suspect that if those doing all the whining and complaining were in the same business they would be doing the very same thing. The point of running a business is to make as much in the way of profit as is possible and there is nothing "un-American" about it. Being mad at businesses for being successful, even in these difficult economic times, is not only absurd but it is also what being a Socialist is all about.


I'm in the business and I haven't raised prices. The increase in volume is good enough for me. Most of these places raising prices were overpriced to begin with.
You know what, people aren't so stupid, at least not gun buyers so I would expect them to shop elsewhere.
I don't think people think that way and that's certainly NOT what socialism is all about.

BZZZZZTT !!!! Wrong answer!! But thanks for playing !

Actually, it is exactly what Socialism is all about.

Check out the "Communist Manifesto" by Karl Marx when you get the chance.

Price control is one of the instruments that Marxists, Communists and Socialists wish to employ in order to institute a "classless society". In a Socialist society, regardless of what your line of work is, everyone makes the same amount of money. From brain surgeons to janitors to teachers, no one earns more than anyone else in such a system and the Socialist doctrine mandates the control of commodities and merchandise pricing in order to ensure the mechanics and viability of such a restricted system.

It is nice that you have elected to keep your prices as they were prior to the election. Such activity serves to keep the market competitive. While people are generally pretty smart about things, the desire to generate the greatest profit possible is not a bad thing and thinking "that way" is what motivates business people to advance themselves and their businesses the way that they should.

Speedo66
November 7, 2008, 03:56 PM
Basic rules of economics:

1-supply and demand

2-buy low, sell high

Any questions?

Tacbandit
November 7, 2008, 04:00 PM
Quote by james rogers:
"My right is to choose not buy from them and help them get away with it."


+1, james.......With ya on that one...Hey, you don't like it, but you keep on
buying from him, at his prices. Free enterprise is one thing, and I know all
about "Supply and Demand", but it gets ridiculous after awhile....:uhoh:

Tacbandit
November 7, 2008, 04:03 PM
Speedo, you posted while I was typing, and you're right...But those who are fed up...you've got two choices...(1)stop buying...(2)stop fussing

1 old 0311
November 7, 2008, 04:04 PM
I started buying, and shooting, 7.62x39 in the late 80's for $99 per 1000. Guess what? Like food, cars, clothes, gas, and energy bills EVERYTHING GOES HIGHER.

Wow I figured that out and I didn't even graduate from Warton Business School.:neener::neener:

hags
November 7, 2008, 04:31 PM
Gun Slinger,



Dude, being mad at businesses for doing well is what socialism is all about?

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZT yourself and spare me your lectures.

Being mad is an emotional state of mind, nothing more nothing less.

Being mad at businesses, as you state is not even the basis of or reason for socialism.

Socialism and Communism are two different forms of government.

Check out a Civics class when you get a chance, of course who knows what they're teaching nowadays.

Socialism is where you spend $800 billion taxpayer dollars to bail out mismanaged and fraudulent corporations under the guise of the "public welfare".

Gun Slinger
November 7, 2008, 04:39 PM
Dude, being mad at businesses for doing well is what socialism is all about?

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZT yourself and spare me your lectures.

Being mad is an emotional state of mind, nothing more nothing less.

Being mad at businesses, as you state is not even the basis of or reason for socialism.

Socialism and Communism are two different forms of government.

Check out a Civics class when you get a chance, of course who knows what they're teaching nowadays.

Socialism is where you spend $800 billion taxpayer dollars to bail out mismanaged and fraudulent corporations under the guise of the "public welfare".


Lighten up, Francis. :rolleyes:

benzy2
November 7, 2008, 06:16 PM
I'm in the business and I haven't raised prices. The increase in volume is good enough for me. Most of these places raising prices were overpriced to begin with.
You know what, people aren't so stupid, at least not gun buyers so I would expect them to shop elsewhere.
I don't think people think that way and that's certainly NOT what socialism is all about.

This is the type of place I want to buy from. While I totally understand the short term business practice of raising prices when fear strikes I think it is a terrible long term approach. It clearly states you have no concern for the customer. I know people go into business to make themselves a buck but when it is my dollar I want to feel like the store has a little bit of interest in me. I don't expect it from the big internet guys but when the local guy plays huge off of fear it is like a slap in the face. The local guy has always been at a price disadvantage. When you not only tell me the price is high, but that you are raising it more to prey on fear going around I don't particularly appreciate it. I guess don't bitch to me when your store goes under because you pissed your customers off is the real point. I would love to give my money, even if it means a bit of a premium, to a shop that shows at least a little interest in keeping customers happy. That makes up a lot of price difference personally.

I don't dislike the system for allowing companies to raise prices like they have. I appreciate it. It is the same thing that keeps prices low the rest of the time. I just don't appreciate the way some businesses feel they can treat people without long run repercussions but I guess that is left to be seen. A couple local stores I shop at didn't raise prices and I will continue to buy from them. A few did raise prices and I won't be stopping in them anymore. I think it is a great system as it lets them do what they want and me do what I want.

ugaarguy
November 7, 2008, 06:29 PM
This is the type of place I want to buy from. While I totally understand the short term business practice of raising prices when fear strikes I think it is a terrible long term approach. It clearly states you have no concern for the customer.
So when a business can only get half the quantity of product they normally get from their suppliers and the customer demand for it is higher they should keep the price the same? Who cares what caused the increased demand? Increased demand is increased demand. Try being in an independently owned shop trying to get 5.56/.223 or 7.62x39 ammo when every other independently owned shop is trying to get the same ammo from the same suppliers.

benzy2
November 7, 2008, 06:50 PM
So when a business can only get half the quantity of product they normally get from their suppliers and the customer demand for it is higher they should keep the price the same? Who cares what caused the increased demand? Increased demand is increased demand. Try being in an independently owned shop trying to get 5.56/.223 or 7.62x39 ammo when every other independently owned shop is trying to get the same ammo from the same suppliers.

Obviously some companies either were willing to live with only selling half what they ordered at regular prices or they prepared. Either way it ended up where I didn't feel like I was being taken advantage of due to the mass panic. I care what caused the price increase. I could understand if the report was either that the supplier price was going up or that the supply was drying up. Those aren't the cases. The situation is that a quick panic sent the masses to the market. I understand getting what you can when business is good. The point is if you are willing to abuse me when things look bad for me I am going to abuse you when things look bad for you. I'm not going to give a **** if you go under and I am going to either stop buying from you totally or I am going to wait until your prices have gone dirt cheap. If you want to be just out for yourself that's fine but I'm going to be just out for me. If you want to give a break to the customer when things go rough for them I am willing to spend a bit extra to help you out the rest of the time, even if it means in the end I spend more.

FMJMIKE
November 7, 2008, 07:04 PM
I am just buying and shooting .22lr from now on......F**K the ammo thieves...:mad:

Gun Slinger
November 7, 2008, 07:05 PM
benzy2,

I agree with what you are saying. I kinda think that you may be confusing "customer service" with the effect that demand has upon price structure regardless of what drives that increased demand.

While it is nice to have the feeling that a particular business concern values you as a customer, the laws of supply and demand still dictate cost in terms of demand and availability and there is no getting around that.

Ugaarguy makes a valid point...
So when a business can only get half the quantity of product they normally get from their suppliers and the customer demand for it is higher they should keep the price the same? Who cares what caused the increased demand? Increased demand is increased demand. Try being in an independently owned shop trying to get 5.56/.223 or 7.62x39 ammo when every other independently owned shop is trying to get the same ammo from the same suppliers.

Even those local businesses in your hometown that you have developed a "relationship" with are subject to the (emotionally driven) market forces at work and eventually they will find it necessary to replenish their inventory at the new pricing level despite their wishes not to do so. This occurs because the distributors see (eventually, usually quickly) that demand is up and regardless of what drives the demand, supply is not infinite and therefore prices increase.

Even though he's all pissed off at me right now, hags place is the type of place that I'd like make purchases from, too. That he is satisfied with the increased proceeds from the increase in volume alone is to his credit and that makes him a nice guy for doing that, but rest assured that as supply diminishes and demand increases he'll eventually be forced to increase his prices, too, despite his desire not to. He either complies with market forces or he doesn't get ammunition and I doubt that he is foolish enough to sell his inventory at a loss.

As soon as people calm down and if they stop buying prices should drop... (notice I said "should" :) )

daorhgih
November 7, 2008, 09:35 PM
"Whatever the traffic will bear." Translation:"Whatever the fools will pay." But I don't buy from gougers, so maybe they'll reform. Cheap--Dirt 7.62 price jumped 25% three weeks! That's gouging! But gasoline DROPPED 25-cents in two weeks. What's THAT! At the Indy-500 Gun Show I bought 11 jerry-cans of steel-core FMJ 7.62 just before the ban on it several yrs ago. $20.00 per can, about 40-pounds. I don't know the round-count, but it's close to 60~70. Sure wish I could do THAT again.!! Whenever we get blizzard warnings around here the stores sell out of bread and milk. They don't raise prices....they just sell it all and there is no more! Whaddya do then? Follow somebody home? And rob them ?! Semper Paratus, BeBe!

Double Naught Spy
November 7, 2008, 09:37 PM
You know what, people aren't so stupid, at least not gun buyers so I would expect them to shop elsewhere.

This has to be the most naive statement I have read in a while.

Supply remaining consistent in the face of increasing demand equates to price increase. This is Econ 101 folks. Look up supply and demand curves.

It also results in "shortages." If demand goes up and supply remains consistent, then there will be the shortage in the consumer end of the market.

In case some of y'all have missed it, there are apparently a goodly number of shortages occurring in the ammo world, apparently a post election spike as gun owners are stockpiling.

There may be no actual shortage of ammo (as it is being stored in private hands), but there is a shortage available for sale relative to demand and some dealers are capitalizing on this. They are capitalists. Interesting concept.

james rogers
November 7, 2008, 09:39 PM
Every time I buy AMMO for my .280 0r 45/70 and esp when I buy winchester 12 gauge 3 inch sabot slugs I simply hate what I have to shell out for them.

Sure I still buy them when I need them, but I only buy 1 box at a time. I am not very thrilled about buying ammo for my 7.7 Jap or 7.65 mauser either, although Ive noticed online there are a few more choices lately,

My 222, 303 british, 30/06, 30/40 krag and 270 have all gone up but I can still find a deal on a few of those sometimes. Wallyworlds around here don't seem to like carrying any of the the odd ammo.

Most of the time when I pay too much for ammo, its on odd stuff and its because I walk in someplace and they have it in stock. Kind of like going to 7-11... you pay more for convenience.

Even there I draw the line, Ill never be willing to pay the asking price for Norma ammo.

Funny though I really do like Hornaday and don't feel bad about paying more for it, but is it really any better than Core Lokt for my 50 to 100 yard deer hunt? I seriously doubt it.

All of this makes me consider reloading and I would reload if I were shooting 10 times more than I am.

I paid 2.99 a box for 7.63x39 last week at Academy. When I get a deal like that it helps average out having to buy some of that other high priced ammo.

The truth is..most of the time I simply vote no with my billfold when I don't like the price.

fishinbill85
November 7, 2008, 10:00 PM
they may not immediately reinstate the AWB...BUT, I have a feeling that they might try to slide in one of those left wing/dirty liberal ideas and just say,"If we can't take their rights away....why not just TAX, TAX, TAX!!!!" A 500 to 1000 pct tax on all ammo and firearms purchases is not out of the realm of possibility from these "people".... just my 2 cents... I hope I am wrong.

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
November 7, 2008, 10:08 PM
Let me get this right, most people here are saying that raising the prices when demand goes up is ok for the business to do and everybody deserves to make a good living from there business. I guess thats called capitalism right. Would all these same people call raising the prices at a gas station 50% or more after a hurricane the same thing, I think not. When people raise their prices in the face of a panic situation its called gouging. Just shop around and dont panic thats what these crooks are counting on. I just bought some 223 from natchez for the same price it was a few weeks ago.

piratelooking@40
November 8, 2008, 12:27 AM
Funny how quickly so-called "conservatives" turn into socialists when capitalism hurts their own wallets.

No freaking kidding.

Socialism and Communism are two different forms of government.

Socialism isn't a form of government, it's an economic system. You can have a democracy which practices socialism, or an autocracy which does. We have both on the planet, right now.

I will sheepishly admit that I've done a bit of panic buying, myself. I haven't paid any panic-inflated prices, though. I bought a suppressor, and some magazines. I've already got more ammo than I have storage space for, but I may buy some more, if I can get it at normal prices (which means stupidly high, but not further inflated by fear of something which may or may not happen, prices.)

Gun Slinger
November 8, 2008, 12:36 AM
Socialism isn't a form of government, it's an economic system.

I am glad that somebody understands the difference. I was beginning to feel as if I was speaking over everyone's heads in addition to "pissing off" at least one. :uhoh:

:)

piratelooking@40
November 8, 2008, 12:41 AM
Yeah, you can't just take a civics class. You have to pay attention.:p

Gun Slinger
November 8, 2008, 01:00 AM
Let me get this right, most people here are saying that raising the prices when demand goes up is ok for the business to do and everybody deserves to make a good living from there business. I guess thats called capitalism right. Would all these same people call raising the prices at a gas station 50% or more after a hurricane the same thing, I think not. When people raise their prices in the face of a panic situation its called gouging. Just shop around and dont panic thats what these crooks are counting on.

George,

Yep, that is what is being said here for the most part. When supply remains the same (or diminishes) and demand increases for whatever reason, prices increase. If businesses raise their prices after a calamity or some sort of unrest that is just part of how a Capitalist economy works. It ain't pretty and it ain't nice, that's just how it is.

No one is "holding a gun" (I know, bad pun. Sorry. :D) to anyone's head with the so-called "panic buying" that we see occurring in regards to firearms purchases. Any threat that would reasonably effect our ability to purchase firearms, magazines and ammunition posed by the Obama Administration is better'n two and a half months in the offing and even though the Dems have openly declared their intentions to "ram" several pieces of legislation through (and probably down the American publics' throat) it'll take considerable time to do so, yet we have artificially induced price increases as a result of emotionally driven "panic buying" prior to the threat's (B.O.) assumption of the Office. Hopefully, folks'll simmer down a mite touch and allow the manufacturers time to "catch up" production-wise, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to occur either. :)

The last sentence of your quote above is probably the best, wisest advice that we could follow and the "antidote" to the gouging that you so detest.

Gunnerpalace
November 8, 2008, 01:10 AM
Anyone familiar with the dealing they did in ARFCOM. There was a thread over there today. Real eye opener.

Girodin
November 8, 2008, 01:18 AM
Expecting a business to NOT get every cent of profit they can from every single transaction they can is a socialist (or communist, you pick) core idea.


I'm going to try to keep this high road but it seems you missed the OPs point entirely and I advise you re-read his post. His premise is totally in line with basic ideas of capitalism ie supply and demand. He is making an argument to cut the demand which would in turn cut the the prices, which are inflated as a result of a recent increase in demand.

Letting the market dictate prices and rational comsumers, ie someone who takes their business elsewhere to find the lowest price, are core elements of capitalism.

Your jump to socialist ideology is pretty asinine and has little basis. It also shows a lack of proper understanding of what socialism actually is.

piratelooking@40
November 8, 2008, 01:22 AM
There are reasonable defenses for actual gouging, as well. When prices on necessities rise in an emergency, it helps to prevent hoarding (if prices do not rise, the first person on the scene is much more likely to buy all that's available of the commodity), and frivolous use (someone using hard-to-get water to wash their car, for example, and don't for a minute think people don't do such things).

I'm not sure though that "gouging" is even a valid concept for stuff which is still plentiful, and <->

Man, I was about to say that ammo isn't a necessity. Too much of this academic crap!:D

Gun Slinger
November 8, 2008, 01:27 AM
Expecting a business to NOT get every cent of profit they can from every single transaction they can is a socialist (or communist, you pick) core idea.


Your jump to socialist ideology is pretty asinine and has little basis. It also shows a lack of proper understanding of what socialism actually is.

Giroden,

Rob s' "jump" is right on the money. "Price controls" (which diminish profit taking) is one of the primary concepts that Socialism is predicated upon. Further, his statement indicates a clear understanding of Socialism and as such is neither asinine nor lacking in sufficient basis.

barnetmill
November 8, 2008, 01:30 AM
Check out the "Communist Manifesto" by Karl Marx when you get the chance.

Price control is one of the instruments that Marxists, Communists and Socialists wish to employ in order to institute a "classless society". In a Socialist society, regardless of what your line of work is, everyone makes the same amount of money. From brain surgeons to janitors to teachers, no one earns more than anyone else in such a system and the Socialist doctrine mandates the control of commodities and merchandise pricing in order to ensure the mechanics and viability of such a restricted system.

What you are saying is not a correct quote. The basic maxist quote is:

Correction: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds (socialism). From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs (communism)" is the correct quote.
Under communist run socialism since the communists are considered to be giving the most the receive the most. There is only equality for the masses that typically recieve very little, unless of course they frequent the black market.

piratelooking@40
November 8, 2008, 01:31 AM
I'm going to try to keep this high road but it seems you missed the OPs point entirely and I advise you re-read his post. His premise is totally in line with basic ideas of capitalism ie supply and demand. He is making an argument to cut the demand which would in turn cut the the prices, which are inflated as a result of a recent increase in demand.

Letting the market dictate prices and rational comsumers, ie someone who takes their business elsewhere to find the lowest price, are core elements of capitalism.

Your jump to socialist ideology is pretty asinine and has little basis. It also shows a lack of proper understanding of what socialism actually is.

All absolutely true. But people are getting angry at ammo dealers, and calling them names.

Here's an example: I live in Southern Nevada, and train at a certain firearms academy, which in the interest of circumspection shall remain nameless, in the area. They sell ammo there, for almost exactly twice what the same stuff sells for at Wal-Mart. If I were to plan poorly and run out of ammo while there, I'd have to pay their prices. I'd hate it, and I'd be angry, but mostly at myself. As long as I have ammo, I :rolleyes: at their prices and walk on by.

Gun Slinger
November 8, 2008, 01:33 AM
Excellent post, barnetmill.

Although I was not attempting a direct quote there are indeed finer points than I have bothered to distiguish between the two economic philosophies.

againstthagrane
November 8, 2008, 02:09 PM
I believe there was also previously mention of "price gouging" (before people started editing posts) which is a non-existent concept in a capitalist market.

i think price gouging is a very real practice, however, not when it comes to luxury items. i know i'll get flamed, but no one NEEDS an ak-47 with 1000 rounds of ammo. it's a luxury to be able to have it. if they want to charge $50 more a case that's their right. just like it's your right not to buy it.

if the price of gas or milk or some other NECESSITY went up 100% that would be gouging, but an ar15 going up $200 is NOT gouging. it's capitalism. supply and demand baby.

james rogers
November 8, 2008, 05:56 PM
you might have a point there

Girodin
November 8, 2008, 06:19 PM
Giroden,

Rob s' "jump" is right on the money. "Price controls" (which diminish profit taking) is one of the primary concepts that Socialism is predicated upon. Further, his statement indicates a clear understanding of Socialism and as such is neither asinine nor lacking in sufficient basis.

Where are price controls mentioned? The point of this thread was about not buying at inflated prices, it had nothing to do advocating government imposed price controls. Where are you reading that? It is a huge, unfounded, and I will repeat, asinine jump from what the topic and point of this thread was. Re-read the posts and explain to me where anyone, in even the most tenuous way, advocated imposed price controls prior to Rob throwing out allegations of socialism. He was accusing people who were in essence demonstrating one of the pillars of capitalism, the rational consumer, by advocating not buying at what was deemed by them an excessive price. Another poster offered an alternative, to buy from a competitor who was selling for less. We then have the charge of socialism. How in the world does that illustrate a sound understanding of socialism? How is that jump (and it really is a jump) "right on the money" Please enlighten me.

ZombiesAhead
November 8, 2008, 07:07 PM
Anyone who frequents THR should have seen these high prices coming a mile away.

I'm happy to see demand driving up prices. It's good for the firearms industry and is also evidence of a concerned gun-owning public with powerful purchasing ability.

"Price Gouging" aka "The Free Market."

Gun Slinger
November 8, 2008, 08:43 PM
Where are price controls mentioned? The point of this thread was about not buying at inflated prices, it had nothing to do advocating government imposed price controls. Where are you reading that? It is a huge, unfounded, and I will repeat, asinine jump from what the topic and point of this thread was. Re-read the posts and explain to me where anyone, in even the most tenuous way, advocated imposed price controls prior to Rob throwing out allegations of socialism. He was accusing people who were in essence demonstrating one of the pillars of capitalism, the rational consumer, by advocating not buying at what was deemed by them an excessive price. Another poster offered an alternative, to buy from a competitor who was selling for less. We then have the charge of socialism. How in the world does that illustrate a sound understanding of socialism? How is that jump (and it really is a jump) "right on the money" Please enlighten me.


Giroden,

"Price controls" were mentioned in my post #52 (and prior to that in in #28) where I was explaining why "rob s" statement...

"Expecting a business to NOT get every cent of profit they can from every single transaction they can is a socialist (or communist, you pick) core idea."

...constitutes a firm understanding of what makes up a Socilaist economic system.

I have neither the time nor the energy to explain the entire thread to you, but the concept of "price control" is a Socialist (and quite similar to the Communist model) economic instrument. Perhaps you misread or misunderstood one of my posts above?

Girodin
November 8, 2008, 09:16 PM
LOL... you referenced your posts. In other words no one besides you mentioned price controls, which was in essence my point. Price controls had nothing to do with this discussion until you plucked them out of the air and starting talking about them. Did anyone in this thread advocate price controls? NO, they did not. Did any of the actions advocated in this thread equate to price controls? No.

Thus I ask again:

Re-read the posts and explain to me where anyone, in even the most tenuous way, advocated imposed price controls prior to Rob throwing out allegations of socialism.

The answer is simple, they did not. You alone mentioned that price controls are a part of socialism. Its true and thats great, but what does it have to do with this thread or the OPs point? Nothing. Does it in anyway support Rob's charges of socialism? No it doesn't, because the people he was making that accusation against were in no way what so ever advocating imposed price controls. Unless you show that they were any further discussion of prices controls and how it figures into socialism in really totally irrelevant. Are price controls part of socialism? Sure. Does that have anything to do with this thread? Not really.


I have neither the time nor the desire to explain the whole thread to you,

More importantly you seem to lack the ability to explain it to me since A) you seem not to have been unable to follow it yourself and B) you seem unable to draw out the significant parts of it for the purpose of this discussion.

Expecting a business to NOT get every cent of profit they can from every single transaction they can is a socialist (or communist, you pick) core idea."

...constitutes a firm understanding of what makes up a Socilaist economic system.

Equivocating the above ("Expecting a business to NOT get every cent of profit...") with calls for boycotts however shows a serious lack of understanding of socialism and capitalism for that matter.

The call to action by the OP had nothing at all to do with expecting businesses to not make all the profit possible. It had everything to do with altering the demand and thus altering the profit possible for them to make. Those are two radically different ideas. They are so different that if one can not see the differences the explanation of economics and ideologies needed to make it understandable would go well beyond what is appropriate for this thread.

However, I will attempt to delineate my point clearly. The OP in essence called for a boycott in order to respond to a rise in prices. A boycott is in no way the same as socialist, government imposed, price controls. Calling for a boycott in order to bring prices back down in wholly capitalist. It is the basic principals of capitalism at work. To suggest, as Rob did, that such a person or those who agree is/are socialist (on that basis alone) is beyond ridiculous. It really does show a lack of understanding about what socialism is.

Further, to suggest that a boycott is the equivalent of socialist price controls is perhaps even more misguided and also shows a lack of understanding in regards to capitalism and socialism.

Perhaps you misread or misunderstood one of my posts above?

Perhaps you misread or misunderstood the entire thread and missed the issues at hand.

Gun Slinger
November 8, 2008, 09:47 PM
Hardly in the mood to argue the minutae with you. I said what I said and my only point was that "price controls" are a Socialist economic instrument. Done wasting my time beating this to death.

Girodin
November 8, 2008, 10:10 PM
my only point was that "price controls" are a Socialist economic instrument. Done wasting my time beating this to death.

Nobody disagrees with you on that point. It simply wasn't relevant to the thread. We all know why you're done, there is not really a point left for you to argue now is there? You cannot show any connection between price controls and anything mentioned prior to your bringing them up because there is none.

You cannot show the connection between the OP and subsequent reiterations of his original point and socialism because there is none. Why not just put it in those terms?

Girodin
November 8, 2008, 10:47 PM
All better?

I'm not sure what you are getting at. If you are implying I have engaged in this discussion for some sort of personal satisfaction or merely to be argumentative you're off the mark. If I was I would have already pointed out things such as the fact that you were totally full of it and in full back pedal mode when you wrote the following:

I said what I said and my only point was that "price controls" are a Socialist economic instrument.

In that statement you claim that your ONLY point was that price controls are a Socialist economic instrument. That was not your point (conclusion) however, was it? Rather your conclusion was that "his [rob s] statement indicates a clear understanding of Socialism and as such is neither asinine nor lacking in sufficient basis." You brought up price controls as evidence to support that point. It was fairly irrelevant evidence as has already been discussed, but it was in fact the evidence in your argument not the conclusion or in your terms, your point.

Pine Cone
November 8, 2008, 11:59 PM
I have bought from Ammoman before, and they offer an email list that they suggest you subscribe to. On Nov. 1st I got this email from Ammoman...

"We try and give our customers a heads up on what's going on and what we expect.

7.62x39 is selling faster than we can get it in. Prices from the importer are going up and we are having to pay more if and when we can get it. It's the best selling item we have and we just want everyone to be aware so they can plan ahead."

At that point most 7.62x39 was still $209.

Price went up about 4 days later, jumped again today.

I thought it was pretty nice of them to email me and tell me they were about to raise prices and give me a chance to buy more at the lower price. They might be making a profit, but they gave me a good warning that prices were about to change days before. Pretty straight shooters as far as I am concerned. I'll buy from them again when the panic is over...

Torghn
November 9, 2008, 12:42 PM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with ammoman raising prices. He is receiving orders faster than he can ship them. To slow the incoming orders you have to raise prices. Once the chaos subsides and orders return to a normal pace I'm sure prices will to.

When my skills are in high demand I charge a higher rate for my time. Why should a retailer be any different?

paratroop23
November 9, 2008, 12:52 PM
That is a drastic increase in very short period! I bought a couple case from them @ $175 less than a year ago! Just two weeks ago it was listed at $205 if I'm not mistaken!

FourTeeFive
November 9, 2008, 03:14 PM
What part of supply and demand is confusing?

If someone increases prices, and the customer pays those increased prices, then that is the market value at that time. If prices and increased and nobody buys the product, the company will be forced to reduce prices.

Is capitalism really that confusing?

camslam
November 9, 2008, 04:21 PM
Trying to bring it back, the prices on most everything have increased.

That being said, I'm glad I loaded up on 10,000+ rounds from Ammoman.com 2 and 3 weeks ago.

People can blast them if they like, but there is a reason Ammoman does so much business and hence has reasons when supply runs low, to raise prices.

That reason is usually they are the least expensive outfit going. There are others that sell the ammo for less, but everytime I have factored in shipping, Ammoman is the cheapest.

Once things get back to semi-normal gun wise, if that is even possible with the Dems running things, we'll see the prices come back down.

Gun Slinger
November 9, 2008, 06:50 PM
People can blast them if they like, but there is a reason Ammoman does so much business and hence has reasons when supply runs low, to raise prices.

That reason is usually they are the least expensive outfit going. There are others that sell the ammo for less, but everytime I have factored in shipping, Ammoman is the cheapest.

This has been my experience as well. I plan on doing business with them again once the dust settles.

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