Gunbroker Snipers?


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Radjxf
November 7, 2008, 07:59 AM
OK, before I give up on Gunbroker altogether, do users have some sort of "sniper application" they run to beat out my bids by $1 at the last second?
I've lost at least 4 auctions on guns that (gasp!) were actually priced right on GB due to sniping at the last second. We're talking auctions that ended at midnight, etc.
I know sniper software use is rampant on Ebay, but curious if it exists for GB as well?

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98C5
November 7, 2008, 08:13 AM
Could be shill bidding. If they are shill bidding, that item will be back up within 24 hours.

R.W.Dale
November 7, 2008, 08:15 AM
This doesn't sound right because you cannot "snipe" on gunbroker due to the 15 minute rule they employ.

distra
November 7, 2008, 08:24 AM
Yep, 15 minute rule keeps this from happening. You have to sit and watch the auction and cannot just expect your bid to win. The 15 minute rule will give you a chance to bid higher. I can say I've never been sniped on GB, unlike Ebay.

ridata
November 7, 2008, 01:11 PM
I like ebay because I can snipe auctions, and get the lowest price. Gunbroker doesn't allow that. The person willing to pay the maximum gets it.

ants
November 7, 2008, 01:14 PM
Like the others above, the first thing that came to mind upon reading the thread title was the 15-Minute Rule.

You gotta do your job and watch the bidding, my friend.

deadin
November 7, 2008, 01:32 PM
There are several ways to fight "snipers".
One is to bid only on auctions that have the "15 minute rule" in force.
Another is to simply bid what you are willing to pay and not be upset if someone else is willing to pay more.
If you want revenge, bid what you are willing to pay (or think it's worth) and then add 10%. Then if you are beat out, you will have the satisfaction of knowing the other guy got screwed.:p

Finally, become a sniper yourself.

R.W.Dale
November 7, 2008, 01:36 PM
as an e-bay seller I firmly believe that snipers should be treated as the partisans they are and be summarily shot on site.

I don't understand why e-bay doesn't have a 15 minute rule, It would make them MORE mony in final value fees and paypal fees

jackstinson
November 7, 2008, 01:41 PM
I don't see how sniping is possible on gunbroker.com. Unless; there was a buy-now price on the auction and someone used it while you were waiting? I've done that a couple of times on guns where the buy-now price was good for me. Here is gunbroker.com's policy to prevent sniping:
15 Minute Rule - What is it?
(last updated on 5/31/2005 1:51:36 PM)

All of our auctions use something known as the '15 minute rule'.

In a typical auction setting, there is always a called out counting that happens to allow buyers time to decide to place higher bids. This 'final call' is reset each time someone places a bid. "Going Once, Going Twice, Going Three times" - someone places a bid - "Going Once, Going twice" - another bid placed - "Going once, going twice".. and on and on until the auctioneer completes the entire phrase "Going Once, Going Twice, Going Three times, SOLD to the highest bidder"

So this rule is no different, but because of delay caused by the internet and other possible technological speed bumps, we have a 15 minute final call time.

When the seller lists an item, he specifies the number of days the auction will run. The auction listings display the scheduled closing time for the auction. If there is bidding activity on the auction within fifteen (15) minutes of when the auction is scheduled to close, the auction automatically switches into a special mode analogous to the 'going, going, gone' period of a live auction. In this mode, the auction is automatically extended until there have been no bids placed within fifteen (15) minutes. When fifteen (15) minutes have passed with no bidding activity, the auction closes.

The 15 minute rule makes auctions more fair, by allowing all bidders an equal opportunity to place their best bid. In other online auctions where an auction ends exactly at a given time, some bidders will hold their bids until the last minute or so, in the hope of winning an item on the cheap. This is referred to as 'sniping'. The 15 minute rule gives all bidders an equal opportunity to place their best bid on an item before the item closes. This way, no bidder loses an item to sniping, and the seller can be assured that he has gotten maximum value for the item.

Our auctions are more like a live auction. In a live auction, bidding continues until no one wishes to place another bid. The auctioneer does the 'going once, going twice' routine, and if someone places a bid the bidding resumes. Since all persons bidding on an auction are connected by the Internet which can be slow and cranky at times, we picked 15 minutes as a reasonable amount of time to overcome any slowness or technical problems.

In a 'live' auction, the person who is willing to pay the most wins the item. Why should it be different on the Web? We certainly don't hide the fact we do this - you will find the 15 minute rule described in our Help Center, User Agreement, etc. It is also why our auction listings say "Ends On or After".

In a recent survey, a feature similar to our '15 minute rule' was the #1 most-requested feature addition that eBay (R) users would like to see added to the eBay (R) site.

Eightball
November 7, 2008, 01:46 PM
Given their 15 minute rule, the only way I can see "sniping" happening on Gunbroker is as jackstinson suggested with the BIN option.

deadin
November 7, 2008, 04:36 PM
I just went out and read the GB "Buy It Now" description......

If you set a Reserve Price on an auction, and the bidding exceeds the Reserve Price, the BuyNow! option will be disabled at that time. If you do not set a Reserve Price, then the BuyNow! will only be disabled when the current bid has exceeded the BuyNow! price. Most other auction sites typically disable the "instant buy" feature instantly once any bid has been placed - so as a compromise we allow the BuyNow! to continue until the Reserve is met.

Would someone explain to me how a "non-Reserve" auction would ever exceed the Buy-It-Now price? It says that "Most other auctions sites disable the BIN once a bid has been placed. GB lets theirs continue.
If there is a BIN price in force, wouldn't the auction automatically end as soon as someone hit it?:confused::confused:

Hawk
November 7, 2008, 05:42 PM
No such thing as snipers per se on Gunbroker.

Although, as you've noted, some auctions end at midnight and it can be a pain to monitor. The solution is to bid what you're willing to pay and let "AutoBid" act like a schoolyard bully and slap anyone that comes in to snag the article.

Obviously, if you were beat by $1 and are complaining, you were willing to pay $2 more than your max bid which means it wasn't really your max bid. The winning bidder will only win by the minimum required to beat #2.

Entering a maximum bid that really is your maximum bid will have Gunbroker's AutoBid duplicating the functionality of separate sniper software and it's free. It will only bid enough to beat your competition up till the maximum you've authorized - just like most standalone sniper software except for the "waiting to the bitter end" part which doesn't work on Gunbroker anyway.

ridata
November 7, 2008, 06:07 PM
deadin: I think the reserve price is different than the BIN price.
I'll give an example. I was looking at an AR on GB this morning. The starting bid was $0, the reserve was $1300 something and the BIN was $1500.
If I placed a bid for $1, the BIN would be there. If I placed a bid for $1301, the BIN would be gone. On ebay the BIN would be gone as soon as I bid that $1.

deadin
November 7, 2008, 07:34 PM
ridata,
The way I read their definition the BIN only disappears on a Reserve type auction if and when the reserve is met. On a non-reserve type the BIN will disappear when the BIN has been exceeded. This doesn't make sense. How can the BIN price be "exceeded" if it is still active? If the BIN is met, shouldn't the item be considered sold? Or are they treating the BIN as a starting bid and letting the auction continue on. That's just the same as disabling the BIN once there is any kind of bid.
I know I would be pretty hacked if I bid $110 on an auction that had an active $100 BIN and didn't win because someone else bid exactly $100 and got it because of the BIN rules.
I think the way the rules are written leaves a lot to be desired.

Rmart30
November 7, 2008, 07:35 PM
simply bid what you are willing to pay and not be upset if someone else is willing to pay more

I agree with that completely...... If you find something youd pay $10 for but only bid $1 on it then someone bids $2 in the last few minutes you have no one to blame but yourself for bidding low and not winning it.
Ebay has whats called Proxy bidding and its not automatically taken to your highest bid unless you are bid against...... ie: if you bid $10 on something with a opening bid of $1 it stays at $1 unless someone bids $2, then it automatically raises your bid to $3 and so on.

I got a nasty message from someone on Ebay a cpl of years ago on a boat I won. I bid $1 more than him 5 minutes before it ended and won it.
He said he woulda bid $500 more if he knew I coulda done that. I politely told him well ya shoulda done that to start with. :neener:

mgregg85
November 7, 2008, 07:37 PM
Doesn't gunbroker have proxy bidding?

dogtown tom
November 7, 2008, 08:18 PM
I've never understood those who complain about "sniping".:confused:

Auctions (with or without 15 min rule) go to the HIGHEST bidder. Period.
Sniping only means you successfully outbid everyone else with little time remaining for others to counter. Don't want to get sniped? BID BIG !!!!

Example: I bid on a handgun at an online auction. I estimated the value of the gun at about $350. The five day auction had a penny start with no reserve. I was the first bidder and bid my max----$350.

Day one- gun was mine! As long as no one else bid it was mine for .01 !!!:D

On day two, some clown tried to steal my gun- he bid, no kidding- $5.00 I got an automatic email telling me that my autobid was now $5.00
For the next fifteen minutes this Einstein kept bidding the minimum increment. :banghead:He stopped when the bid went to around $100. Cheaper than playing a slot machine I guess.:D

Day three- no bids, I'm feeling real good. This bargain baby is mine!

Day four- Two other bidders made one bid each. My autobid bumped to about $240.:cuss:

Day five- no more bidding until about five minutes before the auction- but what a frenzy! In the last three minutes there were about six bids by the two guys from day four. Each time they only bid by the minimum increment.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

I won with a final price of about $290. I was happy.

This is just an example of human behavior in auctions. Some would like to think they will pay less if they try to snipe at the end. Never. The winner in a "no reserve" auction will ALWAYS be the highest bidder. Whether you place that bid day one or in the last thirty seconds you cannot change that fact.

It is however WAAAAY more fun to bid at the last minute to see if you can win it with just a dollar more than the last bid. This is the same thrill that you get from gambling, because that's what you're doing. You're gambling that no one will outbid you in that last six seconds.

That's the thrill of auctions. The winning. Because no one ever overpays in an auction.:rolleyes:

knockonit
November 7, 2008, 08:48 PM
i think all the auction sites have shill bidders, I frequent several and buy a few here and there, its funny when I track a specific item and find that it goes up for sale weeks later with the same vendor, also you can if you pay attention watch those that shill for vendors, take some doing but you can eventuallysee the pattern.
oh well, just have to pay attention to what you buy.
good luck
rj

deadin
November 7, 2008, 08:57 PM
I always bid in the last 15 seconds or so. And then I bid what I'm willing to pay. Why should I tip my hand early and give all of the "nibblers" time to piddle around trying to find my top offer? You would be suprised just how many time I win for a lot less than my bid.
I personally don't care for the "15 minute rule" because I don't feel like sitting around watching the nibblers. On that type of auction I will bid my max and walk away. If somebody wants it more than I do...fine. At least I know that they will have to pay a reasonable price for it. (Or, if there's two or three of them, they may end up paying a lot more than it's worth but have the satisfaction of winning at any cost.:evil:)

Rubble
November 8, 2008, 12:13 AM
I sometimes sell things on Gunbroker. If you find that happening it needs to be reported. Gunbroker can search the server logs and find out who is doing it. Most likely it would be the person your buying from because the 15 min. rule cuts out the sniper.

OcelotZ3
November 8, 2008, 12:41 AM
It's obvious that the people who complain about "sniping", whether on GunBroker or eBay, just don't understand how to bid on an auction, and need to educate themselves.

R.W.Dale
November 8, 2008, 12:53 AM
It's obvious that the people who complain about "sniping", whether on GunBroker or eBay, just don't understand how to bid on an auction, and need to educate themselves.

UM how do you come to that conclusion.

Go to a cattle, equipment or real estate auction. The you'll NEVER see an auctioneer end bidding when paddles are still getting raised. As a seller sniping royally SUCKS, I've had items with 30 watchers and get 50 views in the last 30 minutes go for chump change cause every retarded bidder decided to bid in the last second and only a couple of bids got through.

All sniping does is give the item to the other guy for a much lower price than the market would bare.

lonegunman
November 8, 2008, 02:48 AM
I know for a 100% fact that if you ever bid on anything from "Dave's Guns" in Spokane, you got screwed out of a few bucks. The owner and several workers all have shill accounts.

When they post an item, they shill bid it up as much as possible, if they outbid you but you are well over it's actual value, they will contact you as if the mystery bidder backed out.

They sit in the store and laugh about it on occasion. If you bother to go to the store, they have the gun on the shelf with a tag and retail price. If you try and buy the damned gun, they refuse to sell it and tell you to go to Gunbroker and try and outbid them for it.

The whole mess is a sham.

Blacksmoke
November 8, 2008, 07:13 AM
I never sold on GB but have bought a couple of guns. I jsut bid what I am willing to pay and leave the site alone until I am notified. That may be dumb but it is a lot less hassle. If someone wants to pay more than they should own the gun. It seems simple to me. The result is I have missed a couple and bought a couple. The one Colt I really wanted I bid high as it was a special item for me.

RX-178
November 8, 2008, 07:22 AM
I've never bought anything on gunbroker that I HAD to search gunbroker to find. So I generally just look for good Buy it Now deals.

I did use autobid to purchase a rare AKM bayonet variation, and I paid less than what I was willing to pay for it in the end. I don't know, I guess I don't really have much of an opinion after all.

Dookie
November 8, 2008, 07:42 AM
I know for a 100% fact that if you ever bid on anything from "Dave's Guns" in Spokane, you got screwed out of a few bucks. The owner and several workers all have shill accounts.The store prices are even worse.

It's an auction, if you don't want to lose then bid more.

deadin
November 8, 2008, 11:08 AM
All sniping does is give the item to the other guy for a much lower price than the market would bare.

I agree, sniping sucks for the seller and the auction site.
However, as a buyer, all I can say is TS!. (Can you blame me for looking for a bargain?)

welldoya
November 8, 2008, 12:11 PM
I don't understand the people that bid several times with just the minimum bid, like bidding $3 each time until they find what the other guy's highest bid was. The way I understand it, no matter what you bid, the only bid that will show is just enough to top the last bid.
Like if the top bid is $150 and you bid $300 as your highest bid. The bid won't go to $350, it will go to $151.
Also, just because your auction has 50 "watchers" , don't assume that they got screwed out of bidding at the last minute. I believe most watchers have a similar item to what you are selling and just want to see what it goes for.
They have no intention of bidding.

Rubble
November 8, 2008, 02:46 PM
I don't believe dealers are bidding up the price. I think a few individuals selling 1 or 2 firearms gives everyone else a bad name. My auctions are not even auctions. No reserve- Buy now sales. Either you want it for the price given or you don't.

So here is my cheap plug:
Take a look for your self. Good prices on Stags (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SellerAuctions.asp?User=928631).

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 8, 2008, 02:50 PM
Let me see if I understand this:

SOME gunbroker auctions have the 15 minute rule in effect, and SOME don't? :scrutiny: Who gets to decide? Where is it labeled on the auction in question, as to whether or not the 15 minute rule is in effect? Is it conspicuous and in the same place every time?

Obviously, ALL auctions should have the 15 minute rule in effect.

deadin
November 8, 2008, 07:33 PM
For you folks that think all on-line auctions should have the “15-minute-rule” so they would be more like “real” auctions, take these thoughts into consideration.

1. In a “real” auction, there is a much smaller audience to compete with therefore prices tend to be lower. (Also, any auctioneer that waited 15 minutes to gavel an auction closed wouldn’t hold his job very long.)

2. In a “real” auction the bidder actually has a chance to see, handle and evaluate what he is bidding on, not just some fuzzy pictures and vague descriptions.

3. In a “real” auction the winning bidder gets to take immediate possession of what he has won, not sending his money off into the ether and wondering if he will actually get what he thought he bid on. (Or get anything at all.)

4. In a “real” auction the seller gets to pay a 15% premium (at least), plus picture, promotion and other fees.

So, to me, the 15-minute-rule is just another example of someone that has no idea of what they are selling is worth (otherwise why not just put a starting bid at what they value it at) and of auction sites maximizing their profits at the expense of the buyers.
Some folks say they won’t bid on an auction with a reserve because it’s a waste of their time. I feel that way about 15-minute-rule auctions. I need to “snipe” to try to make it worth my while to offset #’s 1, 2 & 3 above.

ilbob
November 8, 2008, 07:47 PM
I don't understand why e-bay doesn't have a 15 minute rule, It would make them MORE mony in final value fees and paypal feesMost eBay sellers understand that the potential to get sniped will usually drive the price up, just as no reserves and low minimum auctions tend to end up with the highest sale prices.

There are always a few exceptions, and it is not true for certain types of items, so now and then someone gets a bargain, but overall the sellers get the best prices with a fixed ending time. Its sort of like the way a casino works, a payout now and then encourages the other gamblers, even though on the whole,they are being eaten alive.

If you made a bid that was the maximum you wanted to pay for the item, why would you be mad that someone else was willing to pay more? Are you really saying that the maximum bid you made was not actually the maximum you were willing to pay? Whose fault is that?

AZ_Rebel
November 8, 2008, 08:01 PM
I've lost at least 4 auctions on guns that (gasp!) were actually priced right on GB due to sniping at the last second.

So you lost out on a good price because someone else bid higher? :confused: I don't quite see your point.... You were obviously prepared to bid more but did not, why, if you wanted the item, did you not bid higher?

And, yes, sniping software works on Gunbroker and AuctionArms.:) The "15 Minute Rule" will kick in and allow other bidders to top the snipe but as soon as the 15 minutes are up and the auction is close to ending the snipe will kick in again. The snipe will simply outbid you until you get tired of waiting and rebidding or until the snipe max is reached.

Sniping Software can be very useful. It will occasionally keep you out of a "bidding war" with another bidder but its greatest value is that you can put in a snipe and if you change your mind and need to cancel or want to lower your bid you can do so until a few minuted before the auction ends.

The seller still gets the price people are willing to pay but does not profit from a "bidding war" by two or more people who just "have to have it" and raise the bids to unreasonable levels in the "excitement" of an auction. As a seller I accept that fact and as a buyer I appreciate not having to watch numerous auctions at weird hours to know I can participate up to my price.

Don't forget that the sniper also has to put in a max bid and if your standing bid is higher than the snipe max your standing bid still wins. Your problem is not the sniper - your bid was too low!:neener:

as an e-bay seller I firmly believe that snipers should be treated as the partisans they are and be summarily shot on site.

If you put in a reserve or start bid for the amount you are willing to accept a sniper can not hurt you.

jgorniak
November 9, 2008, 08:32 PM
Don't even try to suggest that an online auction is similar to a live auction; they're two completely different animals.

Sellers who don't like snipers seem to miss this point: a snipe bid will raise the final selling price of an item, whether the sniper wins the auction or not. Without a snipe bid, a lower bid wins. You do like selling at a higher price, don't you?

R.W.Dale
November 9, 2008, 10:01 PM
If you put in a reserve or start bid for the amount you are willing to accept a sniper can not hurt you.

You also won't have to worry about bidders either.

I take it you haven't sold much online. The ONLY way you can make a sale online is for it to be a great deal or be precieved as a great deal. Gunbroker is chocked full of item priced to value that's been auto releisted for YEARS

My items start at what I have in them +shipping with shipping listed as "free". If four snipers pounce in the last second and only one bid gets through it quickly becomes a waste of my time

For you folks that think all on-line auctions should have the “15-minute-rule” so they would be more like “real” auctions, take these thoughts into consideration.

1. In a “real” auction, there is a much smaller audience to compete with therefore prices tend to be lower. (Also, any auctioneer that waited 15 minutes to gavel an auction closed wouldn’t hold his job very long.)

2. In a “real” auction the bidder actually has a chance to see, handle and evaluate what he is bidding on, not just some fuzzy pictures and vague descriptions.

3. In a “real” auction the winning bidder gets to take immediate possession of what he has won, not sending his money off into the ether and wondering if he will actually get what he thought he bid on. (Or get anything at all.)

4. In a “real” auction the seller gets to pay a 15% premium (at least), plus picture, promotion and other fees.

I'm at a loss to figure out how "sniping" negates these points

R.W.Dale
November 9, 2008, 10:03 PM
Sellers who don't like snipers seem to miss this point: a snipe bid will raise the final selling price of an item, whether the sniper wins the auction or not. Without a snipe bid, a lower bid wins. You do like selling at a higher price, don't you?

no no it doesn't if you have MORE than one sniper

deadin
November 9, 2008, 10:05 PM
Sellers who don't like snipers seem to miss this point

It's usually the buyer's that feel cheated because a sniper "beat them out" and they didn't have time to make another bid. (And they didn't get the "bargain" they seem to think they deserve.):rolleyes:

OcelotZ3
November 9, 2008, 10:35 PM
As a seller sniping royally SUCKS, I've had items with 30 watchers and get 50 views in the last 30 minutes go for chump change cause every retarded bidder decided to bid in the last second and only a couple of bids got through.

Yeah, however, we were talking about BUYERS, not SELLERS.

If you have an auction of your own go for "chump change" then that is YOUR problem because you didn't put a high enough reserve on the item or you started it too low...

This isn't rocket science!

I've sold nearly 200 items on eBay and bought a number of items on GunBroker. People who complain either way (seller or buyer) just have themselves to blame.

Funderb
November 9, 2008, 10:37 PM
Easiest way to beat a sniper is with an air strike!!

DagoRed
November 9, 2008, 10:57 PM
I think sniping on ebay is a stupid thing, and doesn't achieve squat. I basically decide upfront what an item is worth to me, what is the max I will pay for it, and I bid that amount by proxy. I can't tell you how many times some moron has tried to snipe an item away from me at the last second only to find his bid was lower than my proxy max. At that point, if he was willing to go higher it was too late for him, I had the item won. If he sniped a higher amount than I had set up on proxy, he got it, but he could have done that days earlier, because I had set a max and wouldn't have gone higher.

I had hoped GB bidders were brighter than to snipe.

deadin
November 9, 2008, 11:25 PM
because I had set a max and wouldn't have gone higher

It has been my experience that you are one of a rare breed. I would say that 9 out of 10 would bid again if they had the chance.

lonegunman
November 10, 2008, 04:12 PM
Deserve a bargain? Are you kidding.

I know that the dealers that Gunbroker their crap from my area always go for the "no reserve" option to induce buyers and if they do not get the price they want they either snipe the price up or steal it back at the last minute by out bidding the honest bidder.


If you want "X" amount of dollars, put a minimum and save the rest of the world from "getting a bargain" as you call it.

I don't bother with crap like Gunbroker simply because it is not worth my time to sit on the internet and try and out bid an employee of the dealer for a product he was supposed to be selling.

deadin
November 10, 2008, 04:52 PM
You know, it's really easy to sit back and place the blame for losing an auction on someone else. (like shills.) Might it be just because someone else was willing to bid more?
Accusing dealers of using shills is pretty slanderous unless you can actually prove it. If you have proof, send it to the auction sponser, if they choose to not do anything about it, think about a lawsuit or just quit using them.

BTW, If you are sure there is a shill bidding against you, you can take comfort that he is going to be paying the final value fee each time.. It won't take many times of this before the dealer will have more in the item than it will bring, even in an "honest" auction. And if a dealer starts having too many "non-paying bidders", bells will start going off with the auctioneers because it will be costing them money.

absolute0
November 10, 2008, 05:11 PM
Um...yeah.

Sellers bitching about "snipers" don't seem to understand the realities at work in an auction environment.

Auctions have their own dynamic. They convene a group of potentially interested buyers within a certain time frame at a specific place and time. It could be at a feed lot, in somone's front yard or world wide the internet, only those that show up at the anointed hour get to participate and high bid wins.

If you want a certain price for an item, hang a for sale sign on it and don't sell it at auction. If you want to capitalize on the bidding frenzy an auction can sometimes generate on a desireable item then you'd better be prepared to deal with the consequences if this doesn't occur.

If you wanna take the ride, saddle up partner. If you don't, hold a garage sale.

jgorniak
November 10, 2008, 07:24 PM
I think sniping on ebay is a stupid thing, and doesn't achieve squat.

You miss the all-important reason for sniping.

I, as a bidder, try to win an auction with the lowest bid I can. A snipe bid isa proxy bid, except it is placed at the last second. As I know that I will get only one crack at an item (in an e-Bay auction), I put in my max bid. I then know that there will be no one escalating the auction price at the last minute. If I win, fine. If not, no big deal.

I don't believe I've ever heard a true sniper whine that they lost an auction.

Sniping is non-exsistent on GunBroker. Shilling is another issue.

OcelotZ3
November 11, 2008, 01:57 AM
To give you an idea of strange bidding on GunBroker.

I bid what I wanted to pay for an item. A while later, a guy bid something and the auto-bidder upped my bid to beat his. 15 seconds later the guy bids yet again... And again the auto bidder outbids him because my amount was still higher (although he actually reached my max but didn't know it).

He then went to another auction for the same item and ended up paying more than I did...

People seem to turn their brains off when selling or buying on auction sites for some reason.

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