[Dave McCracken]

We did this on TFL a few years ago, maybe it's time to update.

What plastic parts on your shotguns have busted?

Only one I can think of was a buttplate.

And, please no second hand stuff. Just what YOU have had bust, break, splinter, glitch or destruct.

Thanks, ulterior motive revealed later....

[sm]

Buttplate(s)
Did get one factory mag plug that was defective from get-go. Must have been installed/made on a M or F ,never seen one cracked ,almost all the the way through before...it was a "green one". ( suspicious that a employee swapped his for a factory new one...never heard of before or since).

[Opie]

Had a stock crack once, it was a factory Beretta 1200fp.

[HSMITH]

One Mossy plastic safety button. That is the total of plastic parts I have broken on a shotgun, and I am REALLY merciless with working guns............

[dfariswheel]

I made some good money replacing Mossberg safeties.

I replaced the usual broken butt plates.

I replaced ONE Remington 870 Express plastic trigger group, but this was a case of the owner absolutely bashing the ^%$#*&* out of it. It didn't actually break, but was so deformed he just wanted it changed out.

I never saw, nor have I ever heard a verifiable case of the "weak" plastic Remington magazine follower breaking. To read the ads, these things are a constant, imminent risk of falling apart and allowing the mag spring to enter the receiver, fouling the gun, and getting you killed.

I've seen a couple of plastic stocks broken, but these were cases of the owners driving vehicles over them.

I have a verified case of a plastic magazine extension with a defective molding job, breaking off just in front of the cast-in threaded steel bushing.

Other than the Mossberg safety which I personally think is a weak design, and and the butt plates which just shouldn't be made of breakable plastic, most of the plastics failures are due to misadventure.

[cslinger]

I have yet to have a plastic part break on any of my guns. Of course I am not a LEO/Military or other abusive user. I use abusive not because of the user not giving a darn but because of the likely use and environments.

[TrapperReady]

Had the stock and receiver fail on an old pump gun.

Then again, I was five years old, and it only shot yellow plastic pellets.

Good thing I had my Matchbox race-car-track "sword" as backup.;)

[mnrivrat]

Plastic Mossberg safety buttons, Mossberg trigger housing (front locking ears) , buttplates , An occasional Remington 1100 buffer, and that's all I can remember at this time of night !

:D :D

[Cindog]

Factory mag plug on a Mossber 835.

[riverdog]

I've never had a plastic part fail. Not on any of my 20+ year old Remington 870 shotguns, matter of fact the only part of my 870TB mag tube that was undamaged by the lack of PM was the plastic follower. I've never even had a part fail on any of the Glock pistols and they have lots of plastic. The right plastic can be a very good material for certain firearm parts.

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks folks, let's see what this produces for another day and then I'll comment. Remember, there's an ulterior motive here....

[Badger Arms]

Dave, silly, every plastic part fails because it's plastic. We all know that plastic sucks. What we need is a school for Plastic parts. I want my plastic parts to be schooled in the basics like reading, writing, and that other thing. Plastic parts usually fail because of a bad home life. They get knocked around by their parents or, worse yet, they have a 'single parent' who must work all the time and doesn't get to devote the time and attention Plastic parts so crave. They then act out at school and aren't able to reach their full potential.

That's why I'm proposing the Badger Arms school for Plastic Parts or "BAPP." Send me your tired, your poor, your huddled plastic parts and I'll give them a new home, tender loving care, and keep them warm. My constant attention, love, and devotion will be matched only by the high-tech security and state-of the art protective facility they will reside in. They will be under constant armed guard. Of course, there will be a small fee for these services. All owners will be required to submit their plastic parts intact and attached to their parent weapons. They must also provide a steady stream of food (ammo). Once donated, said parts and their parent weapons will be under my constant care. You'll be sent progress reports on how your Plastic Part is Improving. That will be enough to sustain you.

No, don't bother donating money. I accept all serviceable gun accessiories like slings, scopes, oil, cleaning supplies, and women.

[mnrivrat]

Badger

Many thanks for your offer of a good home --- I am packaging the gun with the plastic parts as we speak . I wouldn't normaly dream of shipping this thing off to a different home but when I seen you accept the accessaries including "women" I can't resist a chance to get read of one of those. If it cost me a plastic part with a gun attached & a bit of ammo now and again seems like a small price to pay. I will send the Wafe by seperate means. (thank god you didn't ask for a steady supply of food for the accessaries)
She'll be coming by bus and will be easily to recognize - she still has two good teeth but is a bit out of shape everwhere else. She was navy surplus and came well used but still functional. Let me know where to send this stuff ! :D :D :D

[Badger Arms]

Technically, she has to be a gun accessory. Therefore, does she clean bores and do light gunsmithing?

[Clemson]

I replaced the magazine follower in a Remington 1100 20 gauge that had become worn and "fuzzy." It was a hassle to load shells into the magazine because it was sticky. I used a Brownells Stainless Steel replacement, and I have had no further problems. This problem was gradual in its development and did not tie up the gun.

[riverdog]

I gotta admit, this got me thinking that I might replace the steel follower in my oldest 870 Wingmaster (field) grade with the plastic follower from the 870 in which I put the Wilson mag extension. Since this sg is only used for Trap, why leave a steel follower in there to cause corrosion problems?

[Andrew Wyatt]

plastic mossberg safety.

[mnrivrat]

Badger

I figured there would be a "technical" catch there someplace -- got some experience in cleaning bores (in a manner of speaking) but light gunsmithing just isn't part of the resume . Checked and won't fit on a regular bus anyway , and too expensive doing it freight. Anytime your past this way however your welcome to take the wafe along with you and try teaching her some light smithing stuff ! ;) ;)


PS : almost forgot - although it's generaly tooth wear I have replaced a couple broken Remington plastic magazine spring "retainers" . Followers don't seem to give much problems. I'm not against plastic at all - the correct plastic material used in the right manner can be very reliable.

[Dave McCracken]

OOOoKayyy....

S'funny how shotgunners complain about plastic.

I don't hear pistoleros weep and moan about their expensive GMs with the synthetic triggers,recoil and mag buffers made from polywhatever.

I don't hear the benchrest boys complain about the plastic stocks on all those .25 MOA heavy bench rifles either.

Or the folks with the synthetic stocks, mags and carbon wrapped barrels on 22s that started out as 10-22s from Ruger.

Or the Glockistas for that matter.

And, never a whimper will you hear from me about the neoprene grips on the various DA revolvers scattered 'bout this Casa.They do their job very, very well.

But now we hear about plastic mag plugs, plastic TGs, and that accursed safety on Mossie 500s. One mag extension also.

The only trigger housing made from non metallic material mentioned so far was admittedly abused.Oooops! There's a Mossie also cited. Hard call on that, many Mossies endure abuse beyond the norm.

As for Badger's and mnrivrat posts, I hope and pray their wives ( if any) do not EVER read this thread. I do not want accessory Karma to homicides or divorces.

Synthetics are great materials when properly chosen and designed. The aftermarket stocks come to mind immediately. These are the best for rough use. And how many of us use recoil pads made from "Plastic"?

Here's a few more uses that aren't popular yet, but they will be.

Parts like mag caps and stock throughbolts that are not only cheaper to make, but lightweight and rustproof. Anyone that's spent way too much time getting a stock assembly off an old repeater can appreciate a rustproof throughbolt or recoil spring housing.

How about a set of action bars for a pump made from Zytel, and with the forearm molded in one piece so the whole assembly will never rust or come loose?

Or, how about a full length shroud for an 870 with 18 inch riot barrel, that fits over the receiver and barrel, full Pic rail to the muzzle. A good mount for iron sights, red dot devices, NVDs or whatever the mission and budget allow? Heck, good enough mold making means one could also incorporate a Side Saddle, mag extension and so on. Add a straight line stock like Brobeebiter's pet and one has a fighting shotgun of the future.

Molded parts of plastic are cheaper than machined metal parts. If they're designed correctly, they may also be better.

And why am I convinced of this?

Because, if they can not only cure my cataracts as they did two years ago by using molded plastic parts so closely brought in to spec that my vision is 20-20 in my left eye for the first time in 56 years, making better parts for shotguns and better shotguns should be a walk in the park.

And, one friend and co congregant of our will get to spoil grandkids yet unborn because part of his heart is now Teflon.

The technology is there, it's just not explored enough yet.

Questions, comments?

[mnrivrat]

Dave

The key is realy using the right material for the right parts. Plastics run a wide range of formula's and can certainly be used with reliable results if the material and application are correct. With that said , there will always be parts of a gun in my opinion that should not be made of any type of plastic material. Just like there is no application for steel in toilet paper , there are some parts of a gun where plastic has no application. The stocks you mention are a great application for modern composite materials over the traditional wood. Assuming the use of proper materials they are stronger and more stable . There are plastic parts on firearms other than shotguns that have not given great service however. The buffer for the model 60 Marlin/Glenfield for example is prone to breakage. There are other examples as well , but my point is that it is not exclusive to shotguns where plastic parts sometimes are problematic.
I'm sure that plastics in various forms will continue to permiate the manufacture of many things including firearms. If done properly , I for one welcome the use .

ps: Actualy got read of wafe long ago ! (sorry Badger - didn't mean to get your hopes up !) or tighten anybody's wing nuts .

[Badger Arms]

Dave:

It's the right material for the right job, as was stated earlier. I do believe this philosophy was popular about 50 years ago amongst the founders of Armalite. While most of their ideas died a floundering death, some caught on and most were, in fact, right on from a purely engineering standpoint. True, plastics have their place. Ruger makes a pair of fine plastic guns in the P-95/97 and the PC4/PC9 carbine. Benelli has a sound product in the Nova shotgun. Then of course there is the Glock pistol. A few others come to mind. The problem is that a firearm needs to have some weight. Especially a pointing weapon like a shotgun. You have to have some heft to stabilize the swing and attain the correct ballance. You also have to attenuate some of the recoil.

That brings me to your second point. You opine that plastic parts can add utility to your weapon without drastically increasing the cost or weight of the weapon. Reality seems to be far from that. In fact, prices seem to stay the same or even go up for many of these 'cool' things. Manufacturers design really 'cool' things and charge out the behind for them, despite what you and I know are vastly lower manufacturing costs.

I'll follow that point with this... who needs all this crap? My HD shotgun is an 18" plain bead-sighted Remington 870 Express. On that gun, I don't even have sling swivels. No Mag extension, no ghost ring sights, no weapons light (although that is a good idea), no sidesaddle, no weaver rail, heat shield, or any of that crap. I pull the gun out, push the safety off, pull the trigger and it goes bang. I don't have to worry about whether or not I reset the GPS coordinates on my Track/Nav unit when I replaced the solar lithium-ion battery back with a Hydrogen fuel cell. I don't have to worry whether or not the laser range-finding auto-choke system is set for deer or goose. I don't have to worry about the IFF antena getting jammed by my synthetic aperature radar target illuminator.

Dave, for the purposes of a healthy discussion, let's ennumerate the parts we are speaking of and decide which is the best material to make the part out of from a cost-vs.-utility standpoint. The Armalite Golden gun, for instance, used an anodized aluminum barrel, no steel sleeve and they work just fine. What should we make a shotgun from? I'm not disagreeing with you. Far from it. I wouldn't mind a Remington 870 that weighed 4 pounds. I'd just slap a 3-pound recoil reducing device in there somewhere and enjoy the softer recoil. How do we get there?

[Dave McCracken]

Good points.

The Winchester Model 59 shotgun was innovative in several respects. The fiber wrapped barrel didn't sell, though it was a good idea. The Winchoke choke tubes used in it were the first popular internal tubes, and we all know how that idea has gone over. There's a fair number of 59s out there, but almost none are for sale.

Badger, injection molded parts are cheaper to make than machined ones. If we let the makers charge more for them, they will.

The 870 ran the Winchester 12 out of the market because it did the same job but cost considerably less.

The 500 series was introduced to offer a shotgun that did almost as much as an 870 for almost as long and cost considerably less.

The next generation of pumpgun may include lots of plastic to produce a product that will do the 870's job but cost,ahem, considerably less. Obviously, the Nova is an attempt to do just that.

Synthetic mag caps and bolts do not require batteries. The KISS Principle still applies. And I wouldn't want a 4 lb 870, but one 8 oz or so lighter than standard for upland work would be nice. Frankenstein's original mission was as a light turkey gun, but a sub 7 lb 870 has lots of applications.

While I lack a crystal ball in working order, I expect to see more plastic in more good shotguns in the future. And some of this will definitely a good thing...

[HSMITH]

Machined parts are VASTLY cheaper than injection molded parts when quantities are low. For the company to pay for the mold to make the plastic parts many upteen thousands of parts must be made and sold.

A typical cell phone faceplate mold for the phone that is free with your service contract, something everyone should be able to think about easily, will run at a MINIMUM $40,000.00 and if the phone has lots of small buttons or features it can hit $90,000.00 EASILY. That is for ONE mold that will take anywhere from 200K to 400K shots before it needs the gates reworked. Gate work will be $5000 to $10,000 and then it can be used again. These prices do NOT include any engineering, testing, design, or anything else. That is what the mold shop will charge you to make your solid model real. Then you have to find someone to run your parts, injection presses are not cheap..... Hopefully you get the idea here, plastic parts require a HUGE upfront investment.

Plastic is cheap and makes sense when the market will bear the volume to pay for it. We, the gun guys, are such a small market in the grand scheme of things that we just are not worth messing with in most instances.

[Badger Arms]

The rates are actually pretty standard. My Brother worked for a small shop that molded model RC parts on a low-volume, High Quality basis. Their prices were considerably less than what you say. In fact, a run of about 1,000 parts was about the break-even point. That included design and fabrication of the dies.

Dave:

There is a market resistance to plastic parts that I believe you are underestimating. Plastic stock bolts? How would you get that one through to the consumer? Plastic endcaps? Why not aluminum? With as many times as I've seen plastic rails get dinged up, I'd shudder to guess how long one would last on a shotgun. Trigger guards are another thing. Users generally don't play with these as much. I like the design concept of the Maverick shotgun. When I handled the Nova Shotgun, I didn't like it. The action had an imprecice plastic feel to it. It was not solid and doesn't invite confidence. I don't like the Mossbergs because they rattle. Here's the trick, make the shotgun from plastic but make it FEEL as solid as an 870 and you'd put all other manufacturers out of business.

[Dave McCracken]

H, markets will determine the availability, of course. And with 8 million 870s plus a few million 500/37/1300s out there, there may not be that much interest in a new pump shotgun, unless one gets the military involved. And that may be the key.

Aftermarket stuff already includes things like upgraded gas pistons for autos, titanium firing pins, stainless springs and so on. Addon aftermarket pads have folks taking off perfectly good pads and adding high dollar KickEez, Gooie, or Decellerator pads that give a poor return for cost.

Plastic parts will appeal to folks with rusty shotguns in their personal history. Or those wanting to put together Forever guns. The Marine Magnum for instance, would benefit. The Ruger All Weather O/U is another attempt.

But, I'm not trying to drum up business here. No plans for making this stuff. I just think these things will be available if we want them to be.

[owen]

Badger,

For 1000 parts you can use an aluminum tool (cheaper). Another large factor in the cost of a tool is the number of inserts, pick outs, and pull directions. A tool for a pistol frame costs around 100,000 dollars, and thats for a frame that doesn't use insert molded rails.

don't expect to ever see much plastic in he high grade shotguns, (Perazzi, CT Shotgun, Kolar) because it is cheaper for them to machine parts for the volume they do. I wouldn't be suprised to see the next remington pump with a Zytel receiver. That probably wouldn't take much engineering at all..maybe a million bucks worth.

owen