dpms ar15's


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Madjohn
November 8, 2008, 02:09 AM
are they as accurate and well built as the Colt,Smith and Wesson and Olympic arms ar's i saw one at my local gun shop for only 600 and it got me thinking because it was lower in price it was not as good as the others. does anyone have any info on this matter.

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Hoppy590
November 8, 2008, 02:17 AM
Colt,Smith and Wesson and Olympic arms


ehhh

Olympic isnt exactly the top of the crop in AR's.

chances are its cheaper because its used or in a weird configuration. personally id get a DPMS before Olympic, maybe before Smith.

ugaarguy
November 8, 2008, 03:00 AM
DPMS is on par with Olympic. For a plinker / casual use gun they're fine. They are not, however, anywhere close to being a Smith & Wesson, and Colt is even better than S&W.

againstthagrane
November 8, 2008, 06:18 AM
dpms is definitely as nice as S&W if not better. my gas key is staked better than any S&W i've seen. if you believe guns and ammo dpms is more accurate than the m&p as well. my friend's dad has the mp15t and it is definitely NOT worth the 1500 he paid. you can get the same dpms for around 1200 or if you really want to spend 1500 you can get an lmt or colt.

if M&Ps were about $250 cheaper across the board they would be good deals. you're paying a lot for the name.

ugaarguy
November 8, 2008, 06:38 AM
dpms is definitely as nice as S&W if not better. my gas key is staked better than any S&W i've seen.
Well I only handle and inspect 50 plus AR-15s from various manufacturers every year at work. How many DPMS and S&W AR-15s do you inspect in a year?
if you believe guns and ammo dpms is more accurate than the m&p as well.
I believe the reports of consistent accuracy from my customers. If you want to talk accuracy in a budget priced AR-15 look at Olympic. If you want to talk accuracy in a factory stainless match barrel gun look at S&W M&P-15 PC rifles. Thompson/Center Arms (owned by S&W) is making all of the barrels for the M&P-15s.
my friend's dad has the mp15t and it is definitely NOT worth the 1500 he paid.
If he paid $1500 for any M&P-15 other than a Performance Center gun the dealer ripped him off.
you can get the same dpms for around 1200
Really? DPMS doesn't even offer chrome lined barrels, nor HPT/MPI bolts which are both standard on the M&P-15. There are many other small features that are standard on the M&P-15 which aren't even available on the DPMS AP4. So, actually you can't even add options to a DPMS build to get a rifle equivalent to a standard configuration M&P-15.
or if you really want to spend 1500 you can get an lmt or colt.
You can get an LMT for $1300 to $1400.
if M&Ps were about $250 cheaper across the board they would be good deals. you're paying a lot for the name.
No, you're paying for proper assembly and higher quality internals.

45B@cav
November 8, 2008, 07:47 AM
Dpms produces a quality product that is reliable and affordable. I am so tired of people bashing them because they are less expensive. I am a small arms repairmen for the army so I think I am qualified to voice my oppinion on this subject. I have carried M4's for years and my DPMS can do anything my Colt can do as good if not better. Frankly speaking I have never been Impressed with Colt at all. On 90% of my builds that I have done as a civilian I have used DPMS lowers and have never had a single issue with any product I have ever purchased from them. +1 on the stake job, I've seen much more pricey bolt carriers that I had to restake the bolt keys on. I've had range time with a S&W and yes it is a good product but it did'nt do anything that a DPMS could'nt do. When you pull the trigger and it goes bang, that is what it was designed to do. Accuracy is as good as any other stock AR or M16, M4 I've ever shot and thats all you can ask for in any rifle or carbine. I believe that pretty much all of the manufactuerers out there make pretty good products so why pay more for a name. I feel confident enough with DPMS that I would not hessitate to carry one in combat.

possum
November 8, 2008, 08:08 AM
DPMS is on par with Olympic. For a plinker / casual use gun they're fine. They are not, however, anywhere close to being a Smith & Wesson, and Colt is even better than S&W.
i agree, op you should use the search function there are alot of dpms ar threads that have been around lately.

this is one of those classic threads, and one of the main reason i have the signiture at the bottom!

againstthagrane
November 8, 2008, 01:42 PM
Well I only handle and inspect 50 plus AR-15s from various manufacturers every year at work. How many DPMS and S&W AR-15s do you inspect in a year?

if you are a gun dealer and you're trying to use that to prove that you know more about a certain product than me because of it, then you are being comical. :neener:

i handle my own dpms daily and i've handled and inspected 3 or 4 M&Ps. dpms's have a better finish, better stake job, and similar quality all around. except you can get the same dpms for $250 less. dpms offers chrome and titanium nitride lined bolts and carrier groups that S&W does not.

chrome lined chambers are not necessary for a self defense rifle that spends it's life in a closet. if you live in a salty or rain forest like atmosphere then that is a different story. chrome lined chambers actually affect accuracy in a negative way while allowing for slightly better reliability and corrosion resistance in rifles that aren't ideally taken care of. if you clean and lube your rifle you don't need the chrome lining.

I believe the reports of consistent accuracy from my customers.

really? people never lie about accuracy...i'm sure guns and ammo did though. you're right.:scrutiny:
the guy that runs box of truth website has a dpms sweet 16 that shot something like a .25inch group with good ammo. no chrome. just a lowly stock dpms with a scope.

You can get an LMT for $1300 to $1400.

$1400 plus tax equals $1515.50 since you want to be a stickler. i said 1500 you say 1400 what did you hope to prove?

Really? DPMS doesn't even offer chrome lined barrels, nor HPT/MPI bolts which are both standard on the M&P-15.

unless the op is planning on a full auto conversion he's paying for nothing.

No, you're paying for proper assembly and higher quality internals.

uh huh...and not the name. i've run 300 rounds through mine without a cleaning and no hiccups. to me that is enough to be trusted in a self defense scenario witch would likely happen at my home and where environmental variables would not be a factor. not anymore so than another rifle anyways.


If he paid $1500 for any M&P-15 other than a Performance Center gun the dealer ripped him off.

according to smith and wesson he got $270 off of retail. check the site below for confirmation :).
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=44934&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=33803&isFirearm=Y

and for the record i think $1500 is a rip off for ANY smith and wesson ar.



to the op, just go with whatever brand you can get a deal on, if you ever find a feature on another rifle that you can't live without, find the part and install it yourself. that's the beauty of the modular rifle. i bought a "piece of crap" dpms ap4 and installed a midwest industries free float rail, magpul ctr, millet zoom dot on a GG&G cant. mount, cav arms buis, and miad grip and trigger guard.

find a rifle with a properly staked gas key and a high quality barrel and you're good to go. some people cling to their favorite brand and trash anything else. i don't think m&ps are bad rifles i just think they're over priced and if you handle one and compare it to other brands you'll agree

againstthagrane
November 8, 2008, 01:45 PM
There are many other small features that are standard on the M&P-15 which aren't even available on the DPMS AP4.

why is he stuck with the ap4? dmps offers about 60 models in all different shapes sizes and calibers. i especially like their sass model.

innerpiece
November 8, 2008, 02:42 PM
well...
my DPMS Sportical is all Id hoped it would be so far.. my Brother inlaw recomended it to me, and Hes been Navy SpecOps for a good long time..

come see my thread, pics and discussion, and you can see what it does to a car ;) :D

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=400904

Ive got alot in store for this nice lil gun!
Personally, I dont think you would be dissapointed if you bought one.

ip.

BoneDigger
November 8, 2008, 03:00 PM
I just purchased a Panther Light 16 and have not shot it yet, but the fit and finish seems good. I paid right at $650 for it and aside from wanting a new front sight and maybe a light mount, I can't imagine wanting anything more.

I did a lot of research on these before buying and the concensus, from actual owners, is that they are a good and accurate gun.

I gather customer service is pretty good too.

Todd

ugaarguy
November 8, 2008, 07:25 PM
Dpms produces a quality product that is reliable and affordable. I am so tired of people bashing them because they are less expensive.
I haven't bashed DPMS. They make a good rifle. I'm tired of people saying DPMS is just as good as brands that use higher quality components.
I am a small arms repairmen for the army so I think I am qualified to voice my oppinion on this subject.
Then would you care to tell us which brands and models of civilian M4 carbines come as close to the TDP as a military issue Colt?
unless the op is planning on a full auto conversion he's paying for nothing. If you run a semi-auto hard the parts are still a worthwhile investment.
according to smith and wesson he got $270 off of retail. check the site below for confirmation .
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...03&isFirearm=Y
You got me there. I'd forgotten about the M&P-15T. Of course, you've got to factor in the $300 worth of Troy front and rear BUIS, and the $175 worth of quad rail. Strip all that off and you're close to $1000, which is a fair price for the quality of the bbl & internals you get with a S&W.

Anyway, you can keep sitting here and saying DPMS is just as good as S&W, but that won't change the facts. S&W uses higher quality components and builds their rifles as well as or better than DPMS.

browningguy
November 8, 2008, 08:09 PM
You'll hear a lot from the mil spec wannabe crowd. Personally my DPMS upper is excellent, a very good shooter used in several three gun events and thousands of rounds plinking and varminting. I don't want chrome lined bores by the way, general feeling is they are not as accurate. As least I don't see very many of them winning matches.

I've shot M16's and AR15's since my Navy days in the 70's, and also was never impressed with Colt accuracy, even new out of the box mil-spec guns simply aren't made for precision shooting that I do.

Now if you have a plan to carry your own AR into battle that may be a different story. For that I wouldn't mind mil-spec, it's designed for rugged use and minimal maintenance.

Dookie
November 8, 2008, 08:16 PM
I am neutral in this argument. I don't care which is better I just want the product that I buy to be worth what I paid for it, but I have seen lots of opinions and no facts.

Does anyone have any PROOF of any claims they are making?

Can anyone show proof that the parts to a S&W are inferior to a DPMS, or the other way around?

I am building an AR starting with DPMS upper and lower, after that I am building everything with the best parts I can find. I am using DPMS because of cost, great reviews, and the fact that I have seen no proof that the stripped receivers of any of the other brands offer any SIGNIFICANT increase in quality for the added cost. Same reason I buy a Bushnell Elite 3200 over a Leupold VXII. Sure it may not be as nice but it makes me happy and does everything I want in the price I can afford, and has a great reputation.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m67/shelbyfan/ruger%201/th_PB060804.jpg (http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m67/shelbyfan/ruger%201/PB060804.jpg)

atlanticfire
November 8, 2008, 08:23 PM
If I where you I would just try to get whatever you can at this point, things are selling out pretty fast. ;)

againstthagrane
November 8, 2008, 08:32 PM
S&W uses higher quality components and builds their rifles as well as or better than DPMS.

i totally agree that they build them, as well. ;)

ugaarguy
November 8, 2008, 09:36 PM
Can anyone show proof that the parts to a S&W are inferior to a DPMS, or the other way around?
Yes, go pull an M&P-15 bolt and you'll see that it's marked "MP" for the magnetic particle testing. You'll see that the S&W barrels are as being chromed, which they are.
I have seen lots of opinions and no facts.
DPMS doesn't offer hard chromed barrels, and they don't offer HPT / MPI bolts. Those are more expensive options. Whether or not you want them on your rifle is up to you.

Again, DPMS makes a great casual use rifle. S&W happens to build a great rifle with more expensive internals intended for harder use. Pay for what you want.
If I where you I would just try to get whatever you can at this point, things are selling out pretty fast.
The way things are going that's very good advice.
i totally agree that they build them, as well.
LOL - very nice :evil:

TRGRHPY
November 8, 2008, 10:54 PM
Quote:
Can anyone show proof that the parts to a S&W are inferior to a DPMS, or the other way around?

Yes, go pull an M&P-15 bolt and you'll see that it's marked "MP" for the magnetic particle testing. You'll see that the S&W barrels are as being chromed, which they are.

DPMS bolts are MP tested in lots or batches.
DPMS does offer chrome-lined barrels for certain models. Chrome-lining is not something to brag about. If your rifle sucks bad enough that it won't operate without one, then...whatever. If you're complaint about an AR is that it doesn't have a CL barrel just because yours does....whatever.
Quote:
I have seen lots of opinions and no facts.

DPMS doesn't offer hard chromed barrels, and they don't offer HPT / MPI bolts. Those are more expensive options. Whether or not you want them on your rifle is up to you.

You're either uninformed, which I would hope would be the case, or someone who intentionally doesn't like being bothered with facts.

Again, DPMS makes a great casual use rifle. S&W happens to build a great rifle with more expensive internals intended for harder use. Pay for what you want.

DPMS bolts are MP tested in lots or batches.
DPMS does offer chrome-lined barrels for certain models. Chrome-lining is not something to brag about. If your rifle isn't reliable enough that it won't operate without one, then...whatever. If you're complaint about an AR is that it doesn't have a CL barrel just because yours does....whatever.

You're either uninformed about DPMS, or someone who intentionally doesn't like being bothered with facts. Chromed and TiN coated bolt carriers are an option...MP is standard.

If by "harder use" do you mean that you don't like to clean your rifle...ever? What harder use are you going to put one through that the other can't (as you feel) do? What remotely possible scenario do you see that one will make it with flying colors and the other fail miserably? Everything mechanical will fail at some point, and it usually has to do with, in the case of moving metal parts, lube or lack of and not the metal itself.

As far as facts go, with regard to DPMS, you have been completely wrong and do not have your "facts" straight. You also seem to put a premium on some things that have not relative importance, such as a CL barrel. Ok, so you have a CLB, I have a SS that is significantly more accurate. Maybe if you didn't have to shoot 3-4 times as many rounds to get the same shot placement....oh, nevermind.

Dookie
November 8, 2008, 10:54 PM
Yes, go pull an M&P-15 bolt and you'll see that it's marked "MP" for the magnetic particle testing. You'll see that the S&W barrels are as being chromed, which they are.I could not verify that after about an hour of looking. S&W did not mention that, neither did about 10 magazine articles I looked through that reviewed it. If it is true then cool, but it seems more reasonable that it is S&W marking their own bolt, MP-M&P. If I am wrong, I learned something new.
DPMS barrels are also chrome lined. Is there a difference in the how that is done, or the quality of the chrome or manufacturing?

I also found that Stag might be making the receivers.

TRGRHPY
November 8, 2008, 11:18 PM
This is from DPMS FAQ page:

Are your barrels chrome-lined?
DPMS offers chrome-lined barrels in the following configurations as a factory option:
20" Heavy Barrel
16" Heavy Barrel
16" M4 Contoured Barrel
14.5" M4 Contoured Barrel
11.5" Short Barrel
7" Short Barrel
Cost of this upgrade is $32.95. As a note ALL 14.5", 11.5" and 7" barrels have chrome-lined bores and chambers.
Also their 5.56 NATO barrels are CL.
Here is a link to their website that explains their build.
http://dpmsinc.com/forum/posts.aspx?postID=63

As far as being able to CL, you are correct. Saying that they don't come CL is wrong. And since the factory barrels are significantly more accurate than a CL barrel, why in the world would you ruin a good rifle and pay $32.95 doing it?

possum
November 9, 2008, 08:17 AM
i've run 300 rounds through mine without a cleaning and no hiccups. to me that is enough to be trusted in a self defense scenario witch would likely happen at my home and where environmental variables would not be a factor. not anymore so than another rifle anyways.
your standards are pretty low.

Texasred
November 9, 2008, 10:22 AM
Are S&W still the same as an evenly priced Stag or is that different now.
I neve knew until just now that Smiths were MPI. Does this mean that they are pretty much Mil-Spec?

What are the Mil-Specs now? Colt, LMT, Sabre-Def, White Oak, Noveske, Charles Daly and what else?

FrankRochester
November 9, 2008, 01:08 PM
Colt and FN are the only guns that are made to "Mil-Spec". They have access to the military documents. I'm not sure if its true, but I've heard people say that LMT does as well. The rest are trying to replicate what is being done. Some try to go above and beyond, such as Noveske. DPMS is no where near a 'Mil-spec" rifle. And for the original poster. You can get a LMT for around $1,100. Buy the gun in 2 pieces and you can avoid the excise tax for a complete firearm. When you get it, put the upper on the lower and there you go! $437 for complete lower with SOPMOD stock,$675 for complete upper comes to $1,112. For that money you get a top notch rifle. A Noveske is about the only thing you'll find that's better. But at a much higher price.

againstthagrane
November 9, 2008, 01:20 PM
your standards are pretty low.

maybe, but i don't envision having to fire over 300 rounds in "self defense":cool:

journeyman
November 9, 2008, 01:23 PM
I have to agree with 45B and his post. I spent 20 years as a 45B/45K in the Army and after working on thousands of Colt M-16s I was also not impressed. I own a Colt AR-15, a few DPMS products and a Del-Ton and I like them all just about the same. If I ever decide that I need something that is dead certain reliable I will be picking up one of my AKs instead of one of my AR rifles anyways.

Bartkowski
November 9, 2008, 01:28 PM
I bought a brand new LMT for $1000 OTD. It was one of two LMT's I have seen for sale in person. The other was right next to the one I bought for the same price. The price was actually $1100, but we settled for $1000 tax and transfer included.

ugaarguy
November 9, 2008, 04:36 PM
Here is a link to their website that explains their build.
http://dpmsinc.com/forum/posts.aspx?postID=63
Okay I was wrong on chrome lining, but that DPMS fault for not making it clear. If click on any DPMS rifle and click "Build This Rifle Now" it takes you to a page which list the standard barrel as chrome-moly steel, and the options listed are:
Options:
# CRYO Barrel Deep Freeze
# Harris Bipod
# Chrome or Titanium Bolt Carrier assembly
# JP adjustable trigger
# Free float 4-rail handguards
You have to click "Build This Item Now" from the "Build This Rifle Now" page to see that there is a chrome lining option. I'll look at their dealer catalog again when I'm back at work, and I'm sure the chrome lining option will be buried in some obscure area somewhere in the literature.
I could not verify that after about an hour of looking. S&W did not mention that, neither did about 10 magazine articles I looked through that reviewed it. If it is true then cool, but it seems more reasonable that it is S&W marking their own bolt, MP-M&P.
"MP" is the standard marking used on MPI parts. It's how Colt and LMT mark their MPI bolts & barrels as well. Early Stag assembled M&P-15s didn't have MPI bolts, and there were no markings on those bolts.

ugaarguy
November 9, 2008, 05:04 PM
DPMS bolts are MP tested in lots or batches.
Everyone batch MPIs bolts. Individual MPI cost more. If the end user doesn't care about it that's fine, but it's still a more expensive quality control procedure.
DPMS does offer chrome-lined barrels for certain models. Chrome-lining is not something to brag about.
Again, it's end user preference, but making it a standard feature increases the cost of the rifle.
If your rifle isn't reliable enough that it won't operate without one, then...whatever.
I intend to go to a carbine course when I have the time and money to do so after I finish school. I'm an Air Force Veteran, so I'm not a traditional college student. When you take a course from a top level instructor like Pat Rogers you'll run over 500 rounds through your gun in one weekend. When you intend to run an AR hard like that you pay for features that give you added insurance in the reliability department.
If you're complaint about an AR is that it doesn't have a CL barrel just because yours does....whatever.
AGAIN, I'm not complaining that DPMS doesn't offer chrome lining as standard. I'm explaining that when you offer chrome lining as standard it makes the rifle cost more.
You're either uninformed about DPMS, or someone who intentionally doesn't like being bothered with facts.
I'm quite well informed, and I've stated facts to the best of my knowledge. I've been wrong on a few things, and admitted it when I have been.
Chromed and TiN coated bolt carriers are an option...MP is standard.Again, batch MP is standard, but individual MP is not with DPMS.
If by "harder use" do you mean that you don't like to clean your rifle...ever? What harder use are you going to put one through that the other can't (as you feel) do? What remotely possible scenario do you see that one will make it with flying colors and the other fail miserably? Everything mechanical will fail at some point, and it usually has to do with, in the case of moving metal parts, lube or lack of and not the metal itself.
As I said above my intent is to attend a good carbine course. Possum has been through one, and I'm sure he can tell you about rifles failing. I've payed particular attention to Pat Rogers comments here and on ar15.com when he talks about what works and what doesn't. He's a member here, so why don't you send him a PM and ask what he thinks about "just as good as".
As far as facts go, with regard to DPMS, you have been completely wrong and do not have your "facts" straight.
The only DPMS fact I've been wrong on is that they do offer chrome lined barrels an option. They still do a pi$$ poor job of informing dealers and consumers about it.
You also seem to put a premium on some things that have not relative importance, such as a CL barrel.
You're right, they aren't important to most consumers. They are important to some. They also explain why some AR-15 brands cost more than others, and that it's not just a name as some here are claiming.
Ok, so you have a CLB, I have a SS that is significantly more accurate. Maybe if you didn't have to shoot 3-4 times as many rounds to get the same shot placement....oh, nevermind.
For the record I have an Olympic with a SS bbl that's very accurate. I also paid half the price of my LMT for the Olympic. When time allows and I can get to a good carbine course I'll be taking the LMT with me though. Just because I have a hard chromed barrel one AR that's intended for closer range faster shooting doesn't mean I can't shoot accurately with others. You can leave the personal attacks and implications that I can't shoot out of the thread.

Once again DPMS MAKES A GREAT RIFLE. All I've tried to do is explain what features are standard on other rifles which make them more expensive than DPMS. If you don't believe me, here's Bartholomew Roberts take on it: 34 Ways to Cut Corners on Manufacturing an AR15 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=243382).

Y'all have a good one. I'm off to study anatomy & physiology.

Pat_Rogers
November 9, 2008, 08:48 PM
Actually, my 3 Day Carbine Operator Course lists ammo reqs as 1300 rds of 5.56- not 500.

Actual ammunition expenditure is situationally dependent on the number of students, quality of students and environmental considerations.

goldie
November 9, 2008, 09:01 PM
a friend of mine had a pwa commando ; cast reciever(you could see the line where it joined together),it was the cheapest ar made,but it was accurate & reliable.never jammed once.i think you cant go wrong with dpms or any of the top makers. dpms seems to be the only one offering those spare parts kits,too.

Kino74
November 10, 2008, 02:32 PM
Two guys who are/were 45 Bravos that I know one personally are telling us something contrary to the "chart." As an former spook, I would say that those two guys in this thread will forget more about M16/M4/AR15s than most of us if not all of us will ever know about M16/M4/AR15 family of rifles.

It might behoove others to LISTEN to what those in that profession are saying.

possum
November 10, 2008, 04:44 PM
45 Bravos
what is a 45 bravo? is this supposed to be an mos in some branch of the military? ie the army? i have never heard of that designation, i have been in the army and an infantryman for a few years, never heard of 45 bravo, hey though they might be to highspeed for regular ole grunts like me to know about though. please explain.

possum
November 10, 2008, 04:50 PM
oh that is why i have never heard of a 45b, they are support, ie non combat arms, and i try to stay away from those types.
those two guys in this thread will forget more about M16/M4/AR15s than most of us if not all of us will ever know about M16/M4/AR15 family of rifles.

i doubt that, just because that is thier mos dosen't mean much. ie you would think that most infantrymen could shoot really good, but they can't, they shoot because they have too on the range at work and that is all the shooting that they do a year 40-80rds, they do it because they have too. you don't have to be good at your job to stay in the army. as a matter of fact you generally are not doing your "job" anyway.

quite honestly i don't know why the army has 45b's anyway, save for the guys that work for the AMU maybe. if the unit armorer can't fix it it goes to SASS C and the civilians take it form there, if they can't handle it then it goes to depot, if that dosen't do it then they send it to the maker, no where in there is there any 45b's to fix or "repair" anything.

RockyMtnTactical
November 10, 2008, 05:21 PM
As accurate, sure. As good quality, nah.

againstthagrane
November 11, 2008, 02:59 PM
DPMS and Colt
As accurate, sure. As good quality, nah.


rockymountain tacitical. cool guy? maybe. good reading comprehension? nah.:neener:

bubbaturbo
November 11, 2008, 04:14 PM
What's a "grane" and why are you against it?

Tacbandit
November 11, 2008, 04:29 PM
I'd get a DPMS over an Oly.After that, it's really more about what you want, and what you are willing to spend ...They'll all launch a round down range(most of the time). Sounds like a fair deal...Timing must be everything, 'cause I got a S&W optics-ready for $750.00...far superior to Dpms's I've handled...:)

againstthagrane
November 12, 2008, 03:16 PM
well , "againstTHEGRAIN" is almost always taken, so i simplified my life.

so are you a turbo'd bubba? or a bubba'd turbo? :barf:

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