At athe range for CCW instructor got on me for having hardball ammo for self defense


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Hot brass
September 16, 2003, 09:22 PM
I took a large amount of hardball to do the mandatory shooting for the CCW class. When we were all done and ready to leave I loaded my mag with hardball and the instructor asked, " you are not carrying hardball? are you?
In the class he stated many instances where hardball was ineffective. Guy shoots bg with 5 rds of 45 hb, bg shoots gg with .22lr and gg dies, bg goes to hosp on his own power. Bg takes multiple rds of 45 hb in the back and lives. Etc,etc,etc. Don`t get me wrong, good instructor, he just hates hardball. Says carry hp`s. No hb. I always thought hardball was VERY effective. I know I know, shot placement, shot placement.

I carry either a SA 1911A1 or a PARA P14 both in 45acp.

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jsalcedo
September 16, 2003, 09:36 PM
Friendly advice is one thing but if he is harping on you just nod and go on your way.

There is no point in arguing with someone about 9mm vs .45 and HP vs HB.

Personally I carry hardball for the added insurance of reliability.

I'm just not sure about the added effectiveness of slow .45acp hollowpoints
with possible underpenetration when dealing with cover.

This guy needs to live and let live. Unless you are doing something extremely unsafe or illegal he needs to STFU.

KC
September 16, 2003, 09:59 PM
Didn't hardball work plenty well for GI's for, what, 70-odd years? I am sure there are a few (dead) NVA, N. Koreans, Germans, Japanese, Italians, more Germans, Austro-Hungarians, Mexican Viliastias, Sandinistias, Moros, and so forth that could attest to hardball's effectiveness.

Nightcrawler
September 16, 2003, 10:06 PM
Millions of people; literally millions of people have died from being shot with non-expanding ammunition. Many of them were shot only once.

duckfoot
September 16, 2003, 10:09 PM
.45 acp 230gr fmj RULES!!!

A good shoot is a good shoot is a good shoot. No matter what kind of ammo you use.

Yeah, that guy needs to STFU!

Or is Hard Ball ammo restricted in your state?

nemesis
September 16, 2003, 10:45 PM
Millions of people; literally millions of people have died from being shot with non-expanding ammunition. Many of them were shot only once.

Superb logic! That single statement truly answers the age old question of whether hardball outperforms expanding ammunition.

You may want to ponder how many millions of people have died by spears and arrows. Are you prepared to use a spear for self defense?

If you decide to stick with firearms, why not use a black powder wheel-lock for your hardball ammo. Millions of people died from being shot with black powder weapons so they must be effective. You would agree, wouldn't you?

Or were you just looking for a way to justify your own opinion with flawed logic?

Zundfolge
September 16, 2003, 10:59 PM
A .22 short in the left eye socket will always do more damage then a 20mm Vulcan missing the target (although both will assure soiled undies on the part of the target :evil: ).


What caliber are you carrying?


I carry a Makarov right now and frankly I'm of the attitude that if you are carrying anything smaller then 9x19 you should carry FMJs or ball because with smaller calibers you need the penetration, and over-penetration is pretty much a non-issue (although there are some 9x18 and .380s that do expand well).

DorGunR
September 16, 2003, 11:06 PM
KC Posted
Didn't hardball work plenty well for GI's for, what, 70-odd years? I am sure there are a few (dead) NVA, N. Koreans, Germans, Japanese, Italians, more Germans, Austro-Hungarians, Mexican Viliastias, Sandinistias, Moros, and so forth that could attest to hardball's effectiveness.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hardball always worked for me.
SFC US Army (Ret) 1950 - 1972 ;)

Sarge
September 16, 2003, 11:37 PM
1. Gun must work every time. Hardball makes it happen.

2. Gun must be accurate enough to hit vital area. Hardball qualifies.

3. That good hit must be able to penetrate vitals and intervening limbs, etc., with enough residual energy to disrupt spinal column with centerline hits. Ugly business- but hardball makes it happen.

Is hardball perfect for every conceivable application? No. Neither are JHPs.

Ignore bozo and carry what makes your gun work best. I like Ranger SXT in my Sig- but would certainly not feel naked if it were loaded with the same cartridge that got us through two world wars and a handfull of 'police actions.'

Baba Louie
September 16, 2003, 11:40 PM
In my CCW class they showed a video (reinactment) of a Bubba wrestling with two LEO taking not one but two (125gr. JHP I believe) .357 at muzzle to chest and skull range... and Bubba kept coming back for more (I believe one officer died as a result of the battle).

Use what ya got, try some of each, hardball works fine most of the time (its just a pistol for pete's sake).

But, if you're going up against French goats, try HP... I hear goats don't like them much and last 3.5 seconds longer or something :rolleyes:

Sides that, 500 rds of Hydra Shok (or whatever) is kinda pricey for a classroom environment.

Definitely try out a couple hundred rounds of some HP for carry tho'.

Adios

P95Carry
September 16, 2003, 11:41 PM
I prefer the potential from HP and SP etc ..... but .........

If it were a case of being 99.99999% sure that my mag full of FMJ's will cycle thru as against the outside chance that a ''special'' bullet config just might jam me .... then I'll take the FMJ's.

I do use HydraShocks for carry mostly but .... am not feeling severely disadvantaged if loaded with FMJ's .... far from it.

7 or 8 GFMJ's just have to be more effective than just one ''special'' .........

BluesBear
September 17, 2003, 02:36 AM
More people, in the USA, die every year in bathtubs than by gunshots.



Now I realize that I am a kinda big guy....


and even if Bianchi did make a holster for one....




But seriously folks, 200 gr Speer "Flying Ashtrays" work just fine in my Commander. (But I also have about 5,000 rounds of hardball packed away "just in case".)

Tamara
September 17, 2003, 02:45 AM
In athe class he stated many instances where hardball was ineffective. Guy shoots bg with 5 rds of 45 hb, bg shoots gg with .22lr and gg dies, bg goes to hosp on his own power. Bg takes multiple rds of 45 hb in the back and lives. Etc,etc,etc.

Wow! He actually quoted the little anecdotal "case histories" from pp. 93-94 of Handgun Stopping Power off the top of his head? I'll bet this guy changes ammunition in his carry gun every time a new load creeps past his by one tenth of a percent on the OSS-meter. :uhoh:

Zundfolge
September 17, 2003, 02:52 AM
/me buys Tamara a beer

:D

shot placement my brothas ... shot placement ... hit the range my brothas, hit tha range :D

sm
September 17, 2003, 02:59 AM
Agree with above
bring Tamara a 2nd rd on me...

Hand_Rifle_Guy
September 17, 2003, 03:00 AM
Tamara, your Good Will Hunting is showing! :p

I've read that book 3 times cover-to-cover, (I own it, but didn't buy it.) and I don't know it as well as you do. I just don't assign it enough credibility, I guess. ;) :neener: ;)

Hardball is not a panacea, but it generally is the most reliable for function.

Rule #1 of HAVE A GUN is HAVE A GUN THAT WORKS!


Hollowpoints are pretty good at causing misfunction. If hardball is what works, then hardball shall thou run. It's still plenty lethal.

Remember, obsolete is not the same as ineffective!

KC
September 17, 2003, 03:14 AM
Hot Brass, here's a suggestion.

Your instructor has told you, apparently, that one .22 in the eye is more effective than 4-5 rounds of ball ammo. Offer to take him up on it, so long as you get to shoot first.

Double Maduro
September 17, 2003, 03:17 AM
I use fmj in my Ruger P90 .45. Never felt unprotected. I use them in my 1911 also.

In my Makarov I have only used hollow points. That's all they had at the shop when I bought it. Don't feel unprotected.

In my EAA Windicator with the 2 inch barrell I shoot jacketed soft tips in both .38 and .357.

I am thinking of going the hollow point route in the Ruger. But I haven't had the time to investigate enough. I am leaning towards the Taurus all copper hex bullets. Anybody have any experience with them? I haven't seen them yet but they sound promising.

DM

Double Maduro
September 17, 2003, 03:18 AM
By the way, I have always considered "anecdotal" evidence to be nothing but hearsay.

DM

greyhound
September 17, 2003, 07:51 AM
1. Gun must work every time. Hardball makes it happen.

Yup! That's why I've been thinking about trying the Corbon Pow-R-Ball for my .45, it has the little plastic ball in the center of the HP.

Hard to find on the internet, at least a place that doesn't require a UPS signature.

Old Fuff
September 17, 2003, 08:52 AM
Hot Brass:

You don't have to justify to anyone what kind of ammunition you carry, or explain you're reasons - unless that particular kind is illegal. Some places prohibit residents other then law enforcement officers from carrying hollow-points, but I don't think this applies to you. You are quite correct in saying that hollow-point's sometimes cause feeding problems, and if a pistol doesn't go BANG! when it should the kind of bullet is a moot point. This in itself is enough reason to carry ball. Too many people are looking for a magic bullet while they should be working on markmenship.

OF
September 17, 2003, 09:25 AM
Hardball is certainly better than nothing, but it is the worst performing .45ACP ammunition available. Modern JHP cartridges are just plain better. If your gun will only work with hardball, I'd suggest a new gun. I'd buy up several 50-round boxes of Winchester RA45T or RA45TP and put a couple hundred rounds through that heater and see how it works. Do you carry that 1911 because of nostalgia or becuase it's a superior design? Why carry ammo for nostalgia.

- Gabe

marvl
September 17, 2003, 09:53 AM
Clint Smith's advice is good enough for me: .45acp FMJ. .45 to make as big a hole as possible, and FMJ to insure reliability. It's what I keep in my gun on the night stand.

answerguy
September 17, 2003, 09:54 AM
By the way, I have always considered "anecdotal" evidence to be nothing but hearsay.

A guy that works with a friend of my cousin who lives in CA says that's not true!

DorGunR
September 17, 2003, 10:04 AM
Posted by GRD Do you carry that 1911 because of nostalgia or becuase it's a superior design? Why carry ammo for nostalgia.

- Gabe
-------------------------------------------------------------
I carry the 1911 because it's a superior design.
I carry FMJ because it works.;)

OF
September 17, 2003, 10:08 AM
I carry FMJ because it works.What if there was better performing ammo available that was as reliable? Why not switch? (assuming it worked and was tested and reliable all that).

I'm not trying to bust on anyone for what they carry, I'm happy enough that people are carrying guns! :) Just making conversation...

- Gabe

mpthole
September 17, 2003, 10:11 AM
marvl beat me to it! :) When it comes to guns and how they function and perform, I'll take Clint's word for it.

Mute
September 17, 2003, 11:38 AM
Sounds like your instructor what somewhat out of line. Having said that, all things being equal, I'll take the HP.

buzz_knox
September 17, 2003, 11:44 AM
Millions of people; literally millions of people have died from being shot with non-expanding ammunition. Many of them were shot only once.

Yup. So based on that, we should all carry 9mm FMJ. I mean, 9mm FMJ has seen far more use than .45 FMJ.

Carry what you like. Doesn't matter to me.

Wanderer
September 17, 2003, 11:57 AM
You should've pointed out to your instructor that a well placed .22 was able to kill, so why not a well placed .45?

cslinger
September 17, 2003, 11:59 AM
I am going to carry .22 from now on since that lousy .45 is so ineffective.

:banghead:

Mikul
September 17, 2003, 12:07 PM
What I don't like about hardball is the chance that it will overpenetrate. First, it isn't doing as much damage to the intended target as I would like, and second, it's moving on to do damage to an unintended target. Bad juju.

The profile of most JHPs is similar to the popular SWCs used in a LOT of 1911's. I'm sure there are several brands that will work reliably. Then there's POW'r'Ball and Federal EFMJ, neither of which are classic hollow points.

Wanderer
September 17, 2003, 12:27 PM
I am going to carry .22 from now on since that lousy .45 is so ineffective.

Better get that in a Jennings, or Lorcin since the 1911 is so unproven.

:rolleyes: :barf: :evil: :uhoh: :barf:

4v50 Gary
September 17, 2003, 01:49 PM
Hardball beats flipping the bird, cursing like a sailor and giving the evil eye anyday.

spacemanspiff
September 17, 2003, 02:39 PM
my CCW class instructor actually advised everyone to use hardball. he sounded like he was sick of all those new-fangled ammo types, jhp, frangible, etc.

right now i carry only hardball in my kimber. but i'm interested in finding out if corbon+p will feed reliably in my 1911. i like the stats shown on :
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

buzz_knox
September 17, 2003, 02:45 PM
My recommendation is to forget the one shot stop crap and focus on what works in your pistol, is accurate, and has sufficient penetration/energy/expansion to do the job. Tacticalforums.com has some good information, as well as some good reasons for not thinking about one shot stops.

DorGunR
September 17, 2003, 03:06 PM
I always thought ya was supposed to keep firing until the threat is neutralized.........at least thats what I've done.....uhhh...gonna do.;)

buzz_knox
September 17, 2003, 03:10 PM
Nah. I'm just going to keep their head down so they can't shoot me in the back while I break the record for the fastest quarter mile.

DorGunR
September 17, 2003, 03:17 PM
Good point buzz_knox
Besides....it would be hard for them to chase me due to all that slippery stuff I'm leaving behind.:D

buzz_knox
September 17, 2003, 03:19 PM
I used to practice like I expected to fight. But the range got fed up with the complaints when I'd scream "Oh, sh_t!" then soil myself before drawing my weapon.

DorGunR
September 17, 2003, 03:35 PM
buzz_knox
I wish you hadn't posted that.......I have a visual image of that in my mind..........and it ain't purty.:D

Nightcrawler
September 17, 2003, 04:50 PM
Yup. So based on that, we should all carry 9mm FMJ. I mean, 9mm FMJ has seen far more use than .45 FMJ.

Yes Buzz, that's what I was trying to say. Everybody in the world should carry 9mm FMJ based on what I said. :rolleyes:

Double Maduro
September 17, 2003, 06:15 PM
LOL @ Answerguy, My feelings exactly.

GSMD Fan
September 17, 2003, 10:21 PM
Hot Brass,
IMHO when the instructor says something just nod. It is his world, he is teaching so he becomes the annoited expert. You are paying him for the instruction. Some instructors relish a give and take with their students, some don't. Sometimes finding out could cause issues. This issue is not worth fighting over.

Besides, my CHL instructor showed us the value of a Keltec 32 as a carry gun. "Look how small this is, right in the back pocket, what a great carry gun"

I chose not to enter into the obvious debate. I was using my SIG220 for the class and he thought me a little over zealous.

So I agree the instructor should STFU, but as he didn't and you did, you were the wiser man.

Carry what you want, your call.

XLMiguel
September 18, 2003, 09:33 AM
It's your 1*, carry what you believe in and put it where it counts. Stay safe.

brownie0486
September 18, 2003, 10:02 AM
After carrying 45acp guns for 33 years, I have gone over to 230 grain hardball from all the latest and greatest HP's that ever hit the market for that caliber.

I've seen HP clog up and go HB into the targets, seen em collapse into themselves and go HB like performance as well.

HP are more finicky than HB as a rule. The gun may run fine on the HP's for years, then have a balk. Seen it at the range too often to count, even some of my own carry weapons have this occur.

HB has fewer issues with reliability, but can be overpenetrative at times.

There are trade offs in everything, I have come to the conclusion, for me, HB will be the order of the day.

I'm not in any way undergunned by using HB. I actually like 230 rnl, self loaded as the preferred load. Hard targets like car doors are defeated pretty well with that config, the lead will flatten and create a good size wound channel as well.

I know, I know, hand rolled for defense? Yes, I have carried them and the extra mag carries them for sure. A quick mag change and I have anti-vehicle loads to punch through to the interior.

Use what you got if it works reliably in the gun. I have no aversion to HP's and still use them sometimes. I no longer worry about ball ammo being a deficiency of any kind on the streets for me however.

Brownie

Futo Inu
September 18, 2003, 11:48 AM
Doncha know? All cute mantras are always true, right? Actually, when I carry a .45, I keep a JHP in the pipe, follow by a whole mag of hardball 230s, for maximum feed reliability chances. I'd rather empty a whole mag of those "ineffective" rounds than just a couple of JHPs in the event of an FTF.

teppo-shu
September 18, 2003, 01:08 PM
Hot brass, I'll paraphrase something I read on TFL one time, which you can quote to deflect any criticism from nimrods like your instructor:

A 9mm HP "MAY" expand, but a 45 FMJ will never get any smaller!!:neener:

Sven
September 18, 2003, 11:49 PM
I asked Chuck Taylor, he said: "I had five one stop shots with hardball .45 - once I shot the guy twice, but later we learned my first shot had put him out"

He said that that one was through glass in a car with a guy driving.

Covey Rise
September 19, 2003, 12:20 AM
If you live near me please switch to HP cause if you shoot some bad guy and I'm standing behind him and your bullet hits me, I'm a gonna shoot you, nah, heh, I use HP for the fact that I dont want to kill ol nice Jack standing in the back. TO me a HP is like preflushing in a public toilet. LOL!:D :D :D

Travis McGee
September 19, 2003, 12:47 AM
He's full of crap. .45 hardball is "pre-expanded," 100% reliable, and will penetrate through all the vitals, front to rear.

Ask loads of dead Germans, Japs, Chinese, Koreans, VC, etc. what they think about .45 hardball!

Model520Fan
January 5, 2004, 11:48 PM
I don't understand all the worry about feeding. Of course, HB feeds better, but if you have the charge holes in your cylinder chamfered, you shouldn't have any problem reloading, even with HP. And that's after six shots.

G1FAL
January 6, 2004, 12:15 AM
A 9mm HP "MAY" expand, but a 45 FMJ will never get any smaller!!

Ya know, I never thought of it that way. That is a good point.

Since the politicos in this 'wunnerful' state have yet to realize that people should be able to defend themselves from criminals, I dont carry on a day-to-day basis. But I have run HP's thru my Sig P220 quite a bit, and it worked just fine. The only problems I have ever had with the Sig were when using Wolf ammo. I wont use Wolf in my pistols any more, but it still gets fed to the rifles.

If one .45 FMJ wont stop him, I got at least 6 more. One of them is bound to stop the sumbich.

This is, IMO, another one of those 'whatever works for you' things. If your weapon will work just fine with HPs and you want to use HP, by all means go for it. If you dont feel comfortable using HP in your weapon, use FMJ.

I wonder, though, how effective that Glaser Safety Slug is? The one that has a bunch of shot pellets in it? I dont know if its the same as the Glaser ammo I had read about somewhere else, that was saying that a large % of people shot with FMJ live, but the vast majority shot with Glaser ammo die, as they induce a LOT of shock right friggin NOW! It wasnt in a gun rag that was trying to sell Glaser ammo. I dont remember where it was. I do remember thinking that I'd like to have some of that stuff, though. Anyone used it? What did you think about it? Hype, or good stuff?

artherd
January 6, 2004, 03:45 AM
I sure don't want to get hit with an FMJ in 9mm or .45 for that matter. Either will stop when using FTS technique (ie, shoot, and keep shooting untill he stops. It can be 1 shot, or 40. Depends on the guy and your aim.)

I however will carry HP because of it's resistance to overpenetration. I am not in combat, and I must consider MY responsability to innocent bystandars that I do not intend to kill.

That said, I would not feel undergunned with WWB plinking FMJ for gosh's sake, if that's all I had.


If I had a gun where I questioned the reliability of HP ammo, I would get a new gun RIGHT NOW. There ain't much more useless than a gun that dosen't go 'bang'

c_yeager
January 6, 2004, 04:21 AM
What i find odd is that your instructor expected you to attend a mandatory qualifier with expensive hollowpoint ammo. I generally carry hydrashoks (they feed just fine in my wheel gun :p ) but im not going to go out and spend that kind of money on shooting 200 rounds so some guy can say im OK to shoot. Thats what they make CCI and comercial reloads for.

Sven
January 6, 2004, 11:44 AM
Chuck Taylor told me he had five one stop shots with .45 ACP ball - one was through a car window.

moa
January 6, 2004, 12:24 PM
What Brownie said about hollow points getting clogged up apparently is quite true. In cold weather states, during the winter, people wear heavy clothing that can plug the HP. Then there is the possibility the BG is wearing ballistic body armor, and HB would probably be better in that situation.

Bobarino
January 6, 2004, 12:38 PM
for those that carry hardball:

how much of a concern is overpenetration for you? i'm just curious, i have nothing against carrying hardball. not trying to start anything. i carry JHP's for many reasons, and one of them is that it has less chance of passing through the bad guy and into someone or something else. is this something that needs to be heeded or is it over hyped?

Bobby

ARperson
January 6, 2004, 01:54 PM
There is no answer to this age-old dicussion. Many of the conclusions are based on certain suppositions about chambering, size of the bad guy, what you have to shoot through, how many times you have to shoot him, etc., etc., etc., and so forth. And since there is no standard "shoot to defend" situation, there can't be a right answer.

And if you really want to get down to reality and practical, it probaby won't matter what you feed down the pipe since most of the instances of using a firearm to thwart a crime did not require a shot to be fired. Simply making a show of defending oneself was enough to send the bad guy bugging out in most of the cases.

So there!:D

Brad Johnson
January 6, 2004, 02:24 PM
Instead of anecdotes and hearsay, how about we break it down to the basics...


BALL AMMUNITION

>>Pros<<
- It's cheap
- It's reliable in almost any firearm

>>Cons<<
- It's prone to overpenetration
- It's relatively low-powered compared to self-defense loads
- Causes little tissue trauma other than the actual bullet path (little hole in, little hole out)

HOLLOW POINT AMMUNITION

>>Pros<<
- More prone to expend all available energy on the target
- Less likely to overpenetrate
- More energy compared to most FMJ loads
- Reliable in firearms designed to handle HP projectiles
- More effective at reliably causing extensive tissue trauma outside the actual bullet path (hydraulic effect)

>>Cons<<
- Usually slightly more expensive
- Can cause problems in guns not designed for it

Screw heresay and myth that I can quickly disprove with some basic scientific scrutiny. When it comes to my life I am going to carry the most terminally effective ammo I can get my hands on, and the hands-down winner in that category is HP ammo with the highest possible velocity for the given projectile weight.

Brad

Double Maduro
January 6, 2004, 02:32 PM
I found this site. Scroll down to the index and check out the differance in the 2 .45 acp rounds shown.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

DM

G1FAL
January 6, 2004, 02:33 PM
On a side note:

Is overpenetration really a problem with .45 ACP? Its not going that fast when it leaves the muzzle, seems going thru a few inches of tissue, blood, and maybe bone would slow it down quite a bit.

So how likely is a .45 to overpenetrate at the ranges that most self-defense takes place?

TonyB
January 6, 2004, 03:48 PM
I don't want ot be shot with hard ball or hollow points.......just me???:uhoh:

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