Micro-stamped ammo Serial # B.S.


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smullen
November 8, 2008, 03:45 PM
Was just at a local gun store in St. Charles Mo and I heard the guy behind the counter telling a few hunters he needed to see ID to sell them ammo...

One of the old hunter guys said. since when???

The coutner guys said, since we got this... He whipped out some official looking document that said stating Jan 1 2009, they had to request ID and log it with the Serial #s of said ammo....

Pretty much everyone started b!tching...

Man, I've been in bed sick the last few days with some kinda flu and its like I just woke up in a bad dream... Still sick, but I had to hit a few stores and see what was goin on 1st had....

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Phydeaux642
November 8, 2008, 03:53 PM
:confused::rolleyes:


He whipped out some official looking document that said stating Jan 1 2009, they had to request ID and log it with the Serial #s of said ammo....


I'm sure glad the guys I buy ammo from don't serialize it.

average_shooter
November 8, 2008, 03:54 PM
Ammo with serial numbers? Uh-huh...sure...:scrutiny:

So, is each cartridge given a different number? Doubtful...

The only number I can think of relating to a cartridge would be the lot number, and a lot of cartridges is, well, a lot of cartridges, as in very very many.

Hundreds if not thousands of boxes of ammo are going to be from the same "lot" and thus have the same number.

tmajors
November 8, 2008, 03:57 PM
Only ammo serialize bill I could find for Missouri was introduced, read, then died in committee back in February.

rocinante
November 8, 2008, 03:58 PM
Well friend this should be easy enough to put to rest. I did a quick google search with terms "missouri ammunition serialization" and saw there is a bill and it was scheduled for a hearing last March but NOTHING about it passing. Satisfied my curiosity but I am in Georgia so my level of interest isn't as acute as your should be. It is B.S. NO DOUBT.

Mossberg88
November 8, 2008, 04:04 PM
Feel bad for the person serializing those 550 boxes of .22 LR :neener:

J23
November 8, 2008, 04:06 PM
This may be out of left field, but intead of serialized information, could they be IDing people and taking down the LOT NUMBER? Just a thought.

Float Pilot
November 8, 2008, 04:10 PM
I remember back in the 1970s when there was a period of time when you had to sign for any ammo that could be used in a handgun. And that was here in Alaska. At first it included 22 ammo and they eventually dropped that requirement. Then the whole thing disappeared. That was a Federal requirement that somehow spun off from the 1968 gun laws.

After running out of college tuition money in the mid 70s, I ended up in the Navy as my first branch. They figured that they could screw with me the most by sending me to the east coast. I still remember driving across the border into Massachusetts with all my shooting irons. Then I saw the big sign at the state line that warned of a prison term for firearms possession. It was like I died and went to hell.

smullen
November 8, 2008, 05:27 PM
Well friend this should be easy enough to put to rest. I did a quick google search with terms "missouri ammunition serialization" and saw there is a bill and it was scheduled for a hearing last March but NOTHING about it passing. Satisfied my curiosity but I am in Georgia so my level of interest isn't as acute as your should be. It is B.S. NO DOUBT.

I'm hopping your right, but I did see the paper that had some H.R. number on it... They said they just got it faxed to them a day or so ago and blah blah blah...

So again, I hope its either B.S. or gets no traction...

tmajors
November 8, 2008, 06:54 PM
They said they just got it faxed to them a day or so ago

Just a hunch but I don't think an actual regulation would just be faxed to the gun store. Probably some schmuck playing a prank or doesn't understand the difference between a bill and a law.

Steve N
November 9, 2008, 08:30 AM
Just go back to the store, and ask for a photocopy of the document. Post it on here, and do some research yourself.

moooose102
November 9, 2008, 10:10 AM
can you imagine how small the serial numbers would have to be after the first few million rounds. that would take what six weeks? there just isnt that much room on a 22lr shell. the only ones that it would be any benifit on would be handgun rounds, for the police to be able to trace who bought it. again, how much room, and the same with the bullet. and how would you keep it from being destroyed when shooting. what if a person sold the shells at a yard sale due to money problems? would we require private citizens to record every s/n of every bullet and get drivers licenses of the people who bought said ammo? what about reloading? old stock? this whole idea is rediculous!

The Bushmaster
November 9, 2008, 10:55 AM
I live in Missouri. The clerk is full of s**t. No law of this type exists...

I smell a troll

Restorer
November 9, 2008, 12:26 PM
There is a group trying to get this done state by state. It made it to the Alabama Judiciary this year as house bill 541. My rep told me that he didn't think it would come for a vote and if it did it would be defeated. The session ended without a vote.

The protocol the guy in the store was trying to use would be correct it it were law. The bullet serialization expenses would be borne by the manufacturers and they would have to implement huge price increases to stay in business. Imagine Hornady having to re-tool to stamp the base of each and every bullet with a unique number; it would cost them millions. Then the numbers go into a data base where they are recorded at each and every transaction, including private sales. That cost to be borne by the state and therefor taxpayers, probably in the form of a per-round per-transaction tax.

Here's the process description
http://www.ammocoding.com/

What would happen is that Hornady would stop selling bullets in Alabama, and Hornady bullets would be illegal in Alabama...oh, yeah, I forgot to mention, part of their intended process is forfeiture of all non-serialized ammo. It amounts to a defacto ammo ban. Even LE wouldn't be able to afford training ammo.

Here is a link for these clowns:
http://www.ammunitionaccountability.org/

Apparently they don't have a working system to implement this yet, they expect to be paid by state royalties. They say on the site that the system (no independent testing) has a 99% accuracy rating by law enforcement test. I've yet to see a LE agency in favor of this foolishness.

Another link for the pinheads behind it, with the funding
http://www.ravensforge.com/about.htm


Ravensforge inventors of record are Mr Steve Mace of Seattle, Washington and Mr Russel H Ford also of Seattle. They have a patent pending for the process. Ravensforge is connected to the microstamping technology that California bought into recently. It is very interesting to see that as part of their About Us mission statement they boldly state that the implementation requires legislation. Interestingly enough they also intend to charge a licensing fee for EVERY bullet sold as well....

They have great concerns for our safety. Witness the protection from skateboard damage product that they sell. One of the target markets is government buildings, and I'll bet some committees have purchased them. Oh, what fools these mortals be.

The Lone Haranguer
November 9, 2008, 12:31 PM
If the ammo is serialized by having a microstamped chamber put an imprint in the fired case, does it not have to be fired first? :rolleyes:

Restorer
November 9, 2008, 01:29 PM
No. This isn't the same as the micro-engraved firing pin BS they tried. Raw bullets, bullets in manufactured ammo and brass would be microstamped as part of the manufacturing process, so the number will appear whether fired or not. I think if the ammo is sold as a complete round the stamp on the bullet and the brass must match. Think of it as chain of evidence, from laser stamping die to final target.

fastattack
November 9, 2008, 01:45 PM
Hey guys, try buying ammo in the city of Los Angeles. They require a thumbprint for pete sake. Oh, and don't forget that you can't even buy ammo before New Years and before the 4th of July.

smullen
November 9, 2008, 02:32 PM
I live in Missouri. The clerk is full of s**t. No law of this type exists...

I smell a troll

NO Troll here... Better check your all knowing nose...

If my definition of trolling is correct,which is posting of some B.S. just to cause trouble on a internet forum, I'm a bit put off by that...

I mean what do I have to gain by speading mis-information about my favorite hobby (wife and friends call it my obsession)...

The gun store is called Gateway Outfitters, right offa HWY 70 in St. Charles.... I herd the old crotchity guy beind the counter telling other old guys about it and I saw the paper.... Your welcome to drive up out of the sticks and check it out yourself... Wait it easier to thow around your little comments...

Sorry, I did not force him to hand it over, so I could prove something to some guy on the internet...

I heard him talking about it figured I'd ask here...

My father, uncles and I have been shopping there for years even before it was called what it is now... Just because I am not up on every law, I had not reason to doubt the guy and think hey may have been trolling too...

I figure the Gun dealer is nomally a tad bit more informed than I...

smullen
November 9, 2008, 02:34 PM
No. This isn't the same as the micro-engraved firing pin BS they tried. Raw bullets, bullets in manufactured ammo and brass would be microstamped as part of the manufacturing process, so the number will appear whether fired or not. I think if the ammo is sold as a complete round the stamp on the bullet and the brass must match. Think of it as chain of evidence, from laser stamping die to final target.

Pretty much what the old guy was saying... No mention of the firing pin..

Do you have legit links that have more info on this???

The Bushmaster
November 9, 2008, 03:38 PM
smullen...I just posted a quiry on missouricarry web site. Figure I'll have an answer later...

smullen
November 9, 2008, 03:42 PM
smullen...I just posted a quiry on missouricarry web site. Figure I'll have an answer later...

Cool, thanks... I've never heard of that site... I'll look it up and add it to my links...

Thanks again..

Friendly, Don't Fire!
November 9, 2008, 03:46 PM
I just called Gateway Outfitters at (636) 916-0242 and pressed 2 for the Gun Department and talked with Bill in the Gun Department. I asked if he has 30-30 ammo in stock. He said, yes, he sure does.

I then asked if I need any type of ID to buy the ammo and he said "nope, not at all." I said "thank you very much" and hung up.

I wonder if there were just a few guys there joking around and you may have caught part of it and not the whole thing.

Your fever isn't over, say, 106F is it?

Restorer
November 9, 2008, 04:13 PM
This is about the firing pin. There is more out there, just Google it. This tech isn't "mature" so it's not likely to happen but this is the kind of garbage they keep trying.
http://www.nssf.org/share/legal/docs/MicrostampingStudySummary.pdf

http://www.nssf.org/share/legal/docs/microstamping/Backgrounder-UCDavis.pdf

These are the links from my previous post. The ammoaccountability one is interesting...open all the tabs, especially the legislative one.
http://www.ammocoding.com/
http://www.ammunitionaccountability.org/

Friendly, Don't Fire!
November 9, 2008, 04:18 PM
Restorer

I would rather that they serialize the ammo than take my guns!:rolleyes:

The Bushmaster
November 9, 2008, 04:45 PM
smullen...www.missouricarry.com

Look for the thread titled "Gateway Outfitters" under "Lets talk politics".

jjtroutbum
November 9, 2008, 05:22 PM
Was just at a local gun store in St. Charles Mo and I heard the guy behind the counter

There is your first mistake.Listening to any gun store salesman is at best a toss of the coin as to whether or not they are knowledgeable at all or have an agenda.

I figure the Gun dealer is nomally a tad bit more informed than I...

Well only you can correct this fault. Missouri carry will help with the learning curve. ;)

The rumor is bull pucky that kinda stuff gets the show me residents all fired up.

The Bushmaster
November 9, 2008, 05:56 PM
Thanks jjtroutbum...And it sure does...

Restorer
November 9, 2008, 06:25 PM
I would rather that they serialize the ammo than take my guns!

I agree 100%. My problem with it is the old "...camel gets it's nose under the edge of the tent" thing. Soon you've got the whole camel.

I guess it's better to have the gun. I can always use it as an expensive club to brain somebody. On the other hand, if they took my gun then I'd be reduced to trying to throw expensive bullets pointy end first. Fast. My arm may be good but my shoulder ain't what it used to be. It's only single shot and the velocity is terrible. Squirrels and cats just laugh at me now when I chunk acorns at them. I'm sunk if they serialize acorns.

IndianaBoy
November 9, 2008, 06:35 PM
I would rather that they serialize the ammo than take my guns!
I agree 100%. My problem with it is the old "...camel gets it's nose under the edge of the tent" thing. Soon you've got the whole camel.

I guess it's better to have the gun. I can always use it as an expensive club to brain somebody. On the other hand, if they took my gun then I'd be reduced to trying to throw expensive bullets pointy end first. Fast. My arm may be good but my shoulder ain't what it used to be. It's only single shot and the velocity is terrible. Squirrels and cats just laugh at me now when I chunk acorns at them. I'm sunk if they serialize acorns.


Gentlemen, be careful what you say.

A law requiring the individual serialization of each cartridge would be a defacto ban on ammunition. It would be prohibitively expensive. Especially when you get into the logistics of a firearm that microstamps the brass.

We need to think very critically about any infringement they propose. They aren't doing it to preserve our rights. They are whittling them away from all sides.

BHP FAN
November 9, 2008, 06:51 PM
EXACTLY!Here in California,under the guise of ''safety'',all new handguns sold have to be on the CA ''OK'' list,which gets smaller DAILY.

Restorer
November 9, 2008, 07:41 PM
Indianaboy;
My previous post about taking guns vs. taking ammo was meant in jest. I know this is a very serious issue...if you check out my first post in this thread you'll see I've done a bit of research into it. What got me looking into it was that this bill in Alabama went straight from committee to Judiciary who then recommended it for an up/down vote. I emailed my rep to express my concerns...he wasn't really aware of what the bill was when I contacted him, but after careful reading he assured me he would vote against it (I've got a good Rep.)

Our neighbor state to the West had recently opened a Winchester ammo plant with a 3.5 mill payroll...in all likelihood this kind of nonsense would put that plant out of business.

What made me aware of this legislation was a post on another forum like THR (but not as good:)) These forums are a great way to spread awareness.

smullen
November 9, 2008, 11:29 PM
Thanks...


I posted...

Friendly, Don't Fire!
November 10, 2008, 05:33 AM
True about rights, and once they are taken away, they are not usually given back very easily, if at all.

I take back what I said about rather having searialized ammo than my guns taken.

I don't want ANYTHING to change.

Period.

qajaq59
November 10, 2008, 05:35 AM
I wanna move there and sell the machines for putting the numbers on ammo. I'll be so rich in the first week I'll be able to afford all the guns I ever dreamed of.

stevelyn
November 10, 2008, 06:04 AM
He whipped out some official looking document that said stating Jan 1 2009, they had to request ID and log it with the Serial #s of said ammo....

Unless it's a state requirement, ammo record keeping ended with FOPA '86.

I'd say screw him anyway an order ammo from elsewhere and have it delivered to your doorstep.

hso
November 10, 2008, 08:02 AM
Sounds like a question about a law so I'll move it to Legal.

sumiso
November 10, 2008, 02:00 PM
The coutner guys said, since we got this... He whipped out some official looking document that said stating Jan 1 2009, they had to request ID and log it with the Serial #s of said ammo....

Even if it were true, he's enforcing it two months early. Buy all you can before the new year starts. ;)

The Bushmaster
November 10, 2008, 02:47 PM
It's not starting in Jan. 1, 2009 in Missouri. It never came to a vote and was dropped...

SHusky57
November 11, 2008, 02:31 AM
I work in a large outdoor/sports retail chain in the hunting and fishing department. Most of the people working the gun counter don't really know hardly anything about guns or federal law. I wouldn't sweat it. They just do what they are told by corporate whose number one priority is to cover-their-rear.

smullen
November 11, 2008, 12:18 PM
I work in a large outdoor/sports retail chain in the hunting and fishing department. Most of the people working the gun counter don't really know hardly anything about guns or federal law. I wouldn't sweat it. They just do what they are told by corporate whose number one priority is to cover-their-rear.

I agree with what you say about the bigger Chains, but I expect more outta the guys at smaller shops like Gateway Outfitters, Nassau and the like than I do big box stores...

You don't go (or at least I don't) to bigger chain stores and ask the employees much other than price and if its in stock... Not to disrespect those folks, they are usually more than willing to show up do a good job and be helpful, they just don't get training on much of anythin other than putting items on the shelf and ringing it up... I worked at one of those Chains for a few years...

Sorry to digress, back to the origianl subject.... I am glad to see that this Serial Number stamping business does not look to be taking off here in Missouri! Thanks to all of you that helped dispell the B.S.... I did title it B.S. in the title of the post...

rondog
November 11, 2008, 01:48 PM
Sounds like I need to buy/scrounge even MORE brass & bullets. Still waiting on three shipments to arrive as it is.

smullen
November 11, 2008, 02:06 PM
Sounds like I need to buy/scrounge even MORE brass & bullets. Still waiting on three shipments to arrive as it is.


Same here, I've been most of my 9mm, .45, .223 & .308 Brass for several months now...

A friend of the family is a long time reloader and is supposed to show me how and get me started in a few months when he moves closer...

Also, I'm waiting on a package from ammoman.com

smullen
November 21, 2008, 11:00 PM
Hate to bring this back up, but I think this was waht the old guy @ Gateway outfitters has... I think I remember him saying SB 1200...

http://www.senate.mo.gov/08info/BTS_Web/Bill.aspx?SessionType=R&BillID=148094

SB 1200 - This act requires the department of public safety to develop and maintain an ammunition coding system database containing certain information provided by manufacturers and vendors of firearm ammunition. The information shall only be made available to law enforcement agencies to be used in criminal investigations. The database shall be developed and operational by January 1, 2009. Manufacturers and vendors that do not provide the required information shall be subject to civil fines.


The cost of maintaining the database shall be paid from the newly created "Ammunition Coding System Database Fund". Vendors of firearm ammunition shall charge an additional one-half cent per bullet or round of ammunition and the money shall be forwarded to the state treasurer to be deposited into the fund.


Under this act, a person commits the crime of unlawful sale of uncoded ammunition if he or she sells any ammunition that has not been coded after March 1, 2009. Unlawful sale of uncoded ammunition is a Class A misdemeanor. A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of uncoded ammunition if he or she possesses ammunition that has not been coded or where the code has been rendered unreadable after January 1, 2011. Unlawful possession of uncoded ammunition is Class A misdemeanor. The term "coded ammunition" shall mean a bullet carrying a unique identifier that has been applied by etching onto the base of the bullet projectile.

SUSAN HENDERSON MOORE

Librarian
November 21, 2008, 11:13 PM
Hate to bring this back up, but I think this was waht the old guy @ Gateway outfitters has... I think I remember him saying SB 1200...
And the link says it never moved after being assigned to committee; the guy at Gateway appears to have not been told the bill never passed, so no such law exists.

And besides, if it were to take effect in 2009, why was he trying to enforce it in November, 2008? Your clerk seems to have been very confused.

BHP FAN
November 21, 2008, 11:38 PM
''the crime of unlawful possession of uncoded ammunition if he or she possesses ammunition that has not been coded or where the code has been rendered unreadable after January 1, 2011...''

This is the insideous part.It effectively outlaws casting your own,and reloading .Most people who voted for it here in California did not get that.

Librarian
November 22, 2008, 01:29 AM
Most people who voted for it here in California

Ammo serialization didn't pass in California, either. They tried in 2005 with SB 357 (the April 18th "gut and replace" version) which was itself gutted and replaced with an entirely different bill August 14th, 2005.

California's microstamping law (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_1451-1500/ab_1471_bill_20071013_chaptered.html) is 'have the gun mark the case'.

I expect it will be back. No bad idea seems ever to completely die.

BHP FAN
November 22, 2008, 01:37 AM
Wow,pretty vague...but you've saved me the expense of moving to be able continue my reloading hobby.Thanks!

(7) Commencing January 1, 2010, for all semiautomatic pistols that
are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131, it
is not designed and equipped with a microscopic array of characters
that identify the make, model, and serial number of the pistol,
etched or otherwise imprinted in two or more places on the interior
surface or internal working parts of the pistol, and that are
transferred by imprinting on each cartridge case when the firearm is
fired, provided that the Department of Justice certifies that the
technology used to create the imprint is available to more than one
manufacturer unencumbered by any patent restrictions. The Attorney
General may also approve a method of equal or greater reliability and
effectiveness in identifying the specific serial number of a firearm
from spent cartridge casings discharged by that firearm than that
which is set forth in this paragraph, to be thereafter required as
otherwise set forth by this paragraph where the Attorney General
certifies that this new method is also unencumbered by any patent
restrictions. Approval by the Attorney General shall include notice
of that fact via regulations adopted by the Attorney General for
purposes of implementing that method for purposes of this paragraph.
The microscopic array of characters required by this section shall
not be considered the name of the maker, model, manufacturer's
number, or other mark of identification, including any distinguishing
number or mark assigned by the Department of Justice, within the
meaning of Sections 12090 and 12094.

cobra2411
November 22, 2008, 10:30 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=88101&d=1227367441

1858rem
November 22, 2008, 10:57 AM
so what if you reload and cast bullets?:uhoh::evil:

cobra2411
November 22, 2008, 11:07 AM
1858, the bill they introduced in PA spelled out who is a manufacture and who is a seller. As a reloader who makes ammo for personal use you are neither a manufacture or seller and therefore exempt from the law.

Your mileage may vary...

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