Bushmaster AR-15???


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M&PVolk
November 9, 2008, 10:56 AM
I found a Bushmaster M4 A3 carbine with 16" barrel marked LE only for sale, and I am very interested. It seems solidly built and I have talked to a few people who say they are good rifles, but I don't know much about them and reviews seem rather rare online.

Is this a good AR? What kind of accuracy might I expect with this, as I plan on hunting coyotes with it? What would a good scope be?

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FrankRochester
November 9, 2008, 01:15 PM
You can find better rifles for the same or a slightly higher price. Go with a LMT. Buy the rifle in separate pieces to avoid the excise tax on complete rifles. Get your two boxes, take out the upper and lower and put them together and off you go! You can do this for about $1,100. They probably want like $900 to 1k for that Bushmaster. The LMT will smoke that Bushmaster.

Bartkowski
November 9, 2008, 01:36 PM
This probably won't be easy with the amount of AR's being sold now, but you could wait and look for a deal on a better gun.

Or you could just try to work the price of the gun you are looking at down. Offer $100 or so less than what they are asking for. If they say no, they say no, you are still in the same place you started.

As far as accuracy goes expect 2MOA or better at 100 yards. This is plenty accurate for coyote out to 250 yards or so. Mind you that was an estimate and you might get much better results with quality ammo that your rifle likes.

You might want to look out for a longer barreled gun if you just want to coyote hunt though. The extra velocity will help at longer ranges.

SpeedAKL
November 9, 2008, 01:39 PM
For coyote hunting, check their varminter and predator lines. They'll serve your purpose better.

atlanticfire
November 9, 2008, 01:48 PM
I agree with Frank. But then again I'm not a fan of bushmasters.

Rollis R. Karvellis
November 9, 2008, 02:32 PM
The B.M. Varmiter is a great rifle after you put a good trigger in it.

FlyinBryan
November 9, 2008, 03:45 PM
you wont find a better ar for the money.

lots of guys saying hold out for better with absolutly nothing to back it up.


if you can find absolute reliability, and sub moa accuracy for less, then get it.

and heres what i back that up with

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=392277


ps. i handload and shoot A LOT.

5000plus rounds and never one single hiccup of any kind, period.

Timradcliffe345
November 9, 2008, 04:04 PM
you wont find a better ar for the money.

lots of guys saying hold out for better with absolutly nothing to back it up.

Flyinbryan, with all due respect, but you are completely wrong. The OP can do ALOT better going with something else.

OP: Since you're looking for a M4 style weapon, take a look at this chart courtesy rob_s, a member here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/chart.jpg


Best bang for the buck would be a LMT lower/upper purchased separately or a Charles Daly M4LE. The S&W is not a bad choice either. Stay away from RRA and Bushmaster.

FlyinBryan
November 9, 2008, 04:11 PM
ya, ive seen the chart before, its worthless .

do the things on the chart address issues concerning accuracy and reliability?

if so, my "chart" has pics.

M&PVolk
November 9, 2008, 04:41 PM
Flyin...those groups are awesome. I would be thrilled with that. I know the short carbine is not the best config for coyotes, but heavy barrel configs just don't work for me on the AR. If I was going a heavy barrel, I would just go for a bolt action and get real accuracy.

The AR is going to be a multi-use firearm for me, and after looking at your groups, I'm sure a little practice and the appropriate ammo will net me some coyotes out to 300 yards.

It looks like the Bushmaster is weak on the chart, but I'm not sure how that translates into being a good rifle or not???

Timradcliffe345
November 9, 2008, 05:12 PM
Reliability can directly be inferred from the chart. As to accuracy, it will vary randomly among the different rifles. Personally, reliability trumps accuracy - all the rifles in the chart will be plenty accurate at combat ranges. However, all the rifles in the chart WILL NOT be reliable in combat conditions. Take 10 of your run of the mill Bushmaster M4s and run it hard against 10 Colt 6920s in a 3k/day carbine course and you will have your answer. Personally, I want a combat proven firearm as I run it hard; others barely put 500 rds through theirs in any given year and their lives are not on the line. You get what you pay for and you cannot ignore the features on the chart - they're there for a reason. Enuff said.

M&PWolk: The Bushmaster is weak compared to the other rifles on the chart for a reason. Do yourself a favor and buy quality.

FlyinBryan
November 9, 2008, 05:48 PM
Enuff said

agreed

FlyinBryan
November 9, 2008, 05:50 PM
pm returned

Fig
November 9, 2008, 06:45 PM
There is nothing wrong with Bushmaster. Bushmaster makes a great rifle. I would stake my life on mine (texas carbine).

There are too many people on the internet thinking that the end of the world is coming and they need a carbine that can shoot 10k rounds without ever cleaning it for the in coming zombie invasion of 2012. This makes me seriously laugh.

I hate to say it, but if you get into a 1,000k round gunfight in the United States, worrying if the rifle you bought will last or not is probably that last thing you should worry about.

Like Bushmaster rifles are make out of papier mache. Sure, you got to restake the gas key (big deal), I always have a spare bolt anyhow.

FrankRochester
November 9, 2008, 11:33 PM
you guys need to do more research....

ugaarguy
November 9, 2008, 11:45 PM
There are a few brands that offer some more expensive features than Bushmaster for the same price. Most shooters will never notice though. Normally I'd recommend buying one of the other brands simply on the principle of getting more for the same money. Right now, however, I'd recommend buying whatever AR-15 you can get your hands on. I work for an FFL and I've seen what the distributors had on hand Friday - lots of zeros on their AR-15 inventories. Buy whatever you can get, shoot it, and upgrade if you need too.

burk
November 10, 2008, 12:31 AM
Can a "LE Only" gun be transfered to a civilian? I know the 14" bbls. can't. What made the gun LE only? I use to work in police supply and we had to have a signed letter on police stationary from a legitimate authority to transfer an LE only piece to a officer with ID.

FlyinBryan
November 10, 2008, 12:53 AM
you guys need to do more research....

ok, but im gonna do it with my rifle cuz i cant find the charging handle on my computer.

Kino74
November 10, 2008, 12:57 AM
I'm with Flyinbryn on this one. Why is it there is no performance category listed?

How can a chart value taper pins and not performance? Why is MOA is not listed yet parkerizing under front size base (which will never see light of day unless you want to spend money on a non TDP shaved front sight) is?

This reminds me of ARFCOM where one guy wanted advice on what to tell his Colt owning buddy who got outclassed at the range by him using a Stag Arms rifle. Insult to injury, he paid $600 more for the same rifle over the Stag. But hey that Colt has more "features" its just that accuracy and performance were not those features included.

shadowalker
November 10, 2008, 12:57 AM
he paid $600 more for the same rifle over the Stag

Not completely true, Stag makes a good rifle but it is not the same as a Colt. All AR-15's are not created equal which is what the chart is meant to illustrate. Different manufacturers use different quality of parts and some cut corners that most the time wont be noticed.

The things on the chart contribute to a reliable gun.

A lot of people don't like the chart because their rifle doesn't look good on it, and participate in post purchase rationalization (a bias where a person insists their choice is the best possible and ignores evidence to the contrary).

Can you get by without 1:7 twist, 4150 steel, MPI inspected barrel and bolt, improperly staked gas key? You might be able to, but why when you can get all those things for the same amount money.

Why is MOA is not listed Because it can't be guaranteed, variances in barrel manufacturing or even different barrel manufacturers may be used. Even on the DPMS LR-308 (a notoriously accurate rifle, mine is ~ .6 to .7 MOA) DPMS states they can make no guarantee of accuracy.

A fighting rifle's job is to be as reliable as possible while maintaining an acceptable level of accuracy. Some of the things like chrome lining may give up some accuracy but increase reliability.

ya, ive seen the chart before, its worthless .

Absolutely untrue, for almost the same money the M&P is a much better rifle than Bushmaster. If you can affordthe LMT is a very nice rifle, you can buy it as an upper and lower and spread the cost out. You can also get a BCM upper (bravo company usa) upper which is essentially the same as LMT but with taper pins for a little less.

Like Frank said some members need to do some more research.

TonyDedo
November 10, 2008, 01:12 AM
M&PVolk, it all depends on how much they're asking. The Bushmaster is an 'okay' rifle. It's not top of the line, but it's not a POS either. It all depends on how it's priced; I wouldn't pay much more than $800 for it, but if you get it for less than that, it's a good deal.

Accuracy, you can easily expect 2MOA with optics, and 4MOA without.

I can't really comment on optics, as I'm more of an iron sights guy myself

And regarding the "LE ONLY," that just means it was manufactured during the ban years. It doesn't mean anything now, unless you live in a ban state like MA.

If they're asking more than $800, I'd pass and just build your own. It's easy to do, can be done for under $700, and you can built it to exactly your specifications. If you're looking to hunt coyotes, I'd suggest a longer varmint barrel and a nice ACE skeleton stock.

FlyinBryan
November 10, 2008, 01:42 AM
Absolutely untrue, for almost the same money the M&P is a much better rifle than Bushmaster. If you can affordthe LMT is a very nice rifle, you can buy it as an upper and lower and spread the cost out. You can also get a BCM upper (bravo company usa) upper which is essentially the same as LMT but with taper pins for a little less.


i cant speak for the lewis machine rifles as ive never had immediate experience around one (but im sure they are fine rifles.)

i can only speak from experience with the ones ive owned. colt and bushmaster.

out of those two the bushmaster is superior in every category i care about.

accuracy, reliability, and fit and finish.

my colt came with an accuwedge to keep the upper and lower tight. without it it was far looser than my bushmaster, which doesnt use or need one.

my bushmaster is quite a bit more accurate even though the colt was a model 6700c national match target rifle. (about 1.5" vs. half that size at 100yds)

and perfect as far as reliability goes.

this was the closest category because the colt was pretty reliable, maybe 5 failures in 5k-6k rounds. but 5 to zero is 5 to zero.

i would fold to the suggestion that maybe i just got a daisy from a pile of lemons if it werent for the fact that my brother got one just like mine with the same results, then another buddy got one just like ours except he got the a3 model with the same results, then another friend got their orcm4 with the exact same results. (my son is buying one next)

this is all just first hand experience, and not from any research ive done on the chart or the web or anywhere else but in the field.

the only other experience ive had with others was a guy at the range back in the summer with an m&p.

it shot circles around our groups (2-3" circles) maybe he just couldnt shoot or it was new or whatever, i dont know anything about him.

im sure the others on the chart are great but for me results are the final word. period. sorry if my opinions and results are different from others, bryan.

bkb0000
November 10, 2008, 05:12 AM
ok.. you bought a bushmaster, havent had any problems with it, have managed some somewhat decent groups with it, so you like yours. that doesn't mean bushmaster makes "good guns."

They don't do any fault checking in any of the critical parts, they use inferior bolts, sub-milspec barrel steel, they don't properly torque or steak their carrier keys or castle nuts, they use an inferior extractor insert and spring, they don't use FA carriers or H buffers or 1/7 twists even though they're chambered 556, they don't have enough faith in their own product to offer a respectable warranty. These are all reliability issues- and the reason so much attention is paid to these things is because these areas DO cause failures with this rifle platform- bushmaster leaves the door wide open for any number of failures.

Futhermore, they don't use correct FSBs, which effects accuracy from iron sights, and they don't use milspec receiver extentions, so you have to spend that much more to get a decent stock on the thing.

So why would you spend the same money on a gun that's this way when you can spend a hunna dolla more for something that covers almost all, if not all, of these issues?

that's why I say don't buy bushmaster. maybe yours suits you, but they're not a good buy in general.

mauiglide
November 10, 2008, 05:14 AM
People will bash Bushmaster and I just say "whatever". I've owned my Bushmaster for over a year now (Modular Carbine) and never had any issues with it. Put a few thousand rounds through it and it is accurate if I do my part. In fact, the Bushmaster is my mid range precision shooter with a Leupold Mark 4 scope. I've had no issues with the gas key not being staked correctly and I've got a couple spare LMT BCG from BravoCompanyUSA just because (I doubt I'll ever need to use them).

I will agree that Bushmaster may not be "high end" or "top tier" but for the money, Bushmaster will give you good quality service and performance.

Geno
November 10, 2008, 05:29 AM
I can simply say that I have owned Bushmasters and Colts. Both have been fully reliable. The one Bushmaster that I sold a fellow THR member is out and running flawlessly in 3-gun competitions. There's gotta be something right with that Bushmaster carbine.

bkb0000
November 10, 2008, 06:15 AM
the issue is not whether your rifle has "been fine" or for however long. the issue is whether you would recommend that someone pay almost the same amount of money for a product that has basically zero quality control. even if your bushmaster rocks, and you put thousands of rounds downrange every week and consistently get .5 MOA... that doesn't mean the next guy will, and that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you should recommend that someone buy one.

im not ripping on YOUR rifle- I'm saying bushmaster is an unecessary gamble. that's valid, in the face of the facts.

M&PVolk
November 10, 2008, 03:07 PM
Well, after spending more time researching the matter, the only negatives I have heard about Bushmaster have been as they apply to the chart. As I have found speaking to people that actually own them, they actually appear to be highly respected. I found this to especially be the case amongst my friends in LE, one of which is former swat and currently handles all the qualification instruction for a major police force.

It appears that sometimes the whole is better than the sum of it's parts. I have made the purchase. BTW, try and find an M&P these days or any other AR. It's almost impossible.

goldie
November 10, 2008, 03:18 PM
i said this in another tread. my friend had a pwa commando ; cast reciever,probably the lowest grade ar made, but it never jammed & was very reliable. i dont think it would pull 1" groups,but it worked just fine,so im sure bushmaster,rra,colt & the others are all pretty compatable.

ifit
November 10, 2008, 04:48 PM
my first black rifle, BM m4 carbine LE. get the BM, try it out. if you need more acurracy you could get a dedicated upper for precision shooting for dem cayotes, i am still new to the black rifle/shooting and learning as i go on. some range results

50 yards,55g reloads stock upper m4 16"
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/vz58atrange007.jpg

but w/my new upper 24" bb 50 yards, were limited at 50 yards for now
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/bmtarget022.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/bmtarget023.jpg

rduckwor
November 10, 2008, 05:39 PM
A lot us us get hung up over some very small touches that one manufacturer has over another.

In reality, unless you buy a bottom-of-the-barrel, bargain basement AR that none of us ever heard of, you're going to be fine. The real key to happiness is to not get your knickers knotted over the fact that your BCG doesn't have the gas key staked like Colt stakes theirs, your's has tapered pins when XYZ uses straight pins, etc. ad naseum

Bottom line is that neither you nor I will likely fight a war with our AR and for shooting 'yotes and ground hogs/marmots/flying sharks, we'll be fine.

Besides, it's a damn AR. If it bothers you fix it or replace it. It isn't brain surgery.

RMD

FlyinBryan
November 10, 2008, 07:17 PM
man, those are some nice little clovers you got there ifit.

Deputy25
November 10, 2008, 07:21 PM
I have two Bushmasters and a Colt. All of them run fine.

Kino74
November 10, 2008, 09:55 PM
Shadow walker not to pick on you BUT He DID pay $600 as the thread is on AR15.com Do a search. You may need to use the archive search as it is over 30 days. His question was real telling about perfomance which is the number one issue for me.

Looking at a chart and saying that is how much I will pay is nonsense as prices will vary from region to region. Heck there are 3 gun stores in Baton Rouge located a block from each other and prices very wildly to say the least amongst them. A used Colt AR15 was selling for $1250 and that pre-election.

Some of you guys need to do your own research.

shadowalker
November 10, 2008, 10:36 PM
Umm, a thread being on AR-15 isn't significant. The thread I'm replying to is this one which is on THR.

The prices are mostly a guideline so people can determine if they are being gouged and also compare features for relative price.

JonB
November 10, 2008, 11:33 PM
What did you guys use to judge AR's before the chart?

I've always heard good things about Bushmaster rifles until this chart started popping up on every other thread.

My brother has 2 Bushmasters and they are rock solid. I have a RRA and it is also rock solid. The chart ranks rifles on closeness to milspec for M4gery configuration rifles. I've never thought milspec to be important for hunting coyotes.... but I'm not an armchair commando.

If I was picking an AR for coyote, I would go with the Varminter / Predator lines. RRA has some nice looking configs that are more for varmint hunting. Just make sure you get a flat top to make it easier to scope it.

FlyinBryan
November 10, 2008, 11:36 PM
for almost the same money the M&P is a much better rifle than Bushmaster.

Like Frank said some members need to do some more research.

taking your advice i did some research and according to "some charts" (by bushmaster and s&w respectively) that m&p comes with 4140 barrel steel vs. 4150 for the bushmaster.

side note: the barrel steel stated on "the chart" is the classification for milspec barrel steel (which starts with 4150 barrel blanks)


bear with me, im still looking into all of it.

RonE
November 11, 2008, 01:00 AM
I have a Bushmaster lower with a bushmaster 20" hbar upper and a 16" upper. both have inexpensive scopes and both shoot 1-1 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Here is a target I shot at 50 yards with Iron sights (the peep sight on the detachable carry handle) with my Bushmaster with the 20" HBAR barrel. I was using sandbags for a rest and shooting from a bench. The best 5 shot group (group #2) is .8" center to center. I think the Bushmaster is just fine and haven't had any proplems with mine (I bought it used and it had been rode hard and put away wet before I got it) I shoot from a bench with 10 round Colt magazines.

ugaarguy
November 11, 2008, 01:50 AM
What did you guys use to judge AR's before the chart?
The same info. Bartholomew Roberts condensed much of the info already available with his thread "34 Ways to Cut Corners on Manufacturing an AR15", still accessible in the rifle forum reading library (stickied st the top of this sub forum). From there you had to inspect the rifles, and call and e-mail the manufacturers with specific questions to see what corners who was cutting.

Then Rob_S did us all a favor by putting the info into a quick reference chart. Note on the Google doc of the chart that there is an explanation of features, and contact info to inform if a manufacturer changes specs. He also notes that the chart focuses on M4 style carbines, because that's the style most commonly used for patrol and defensive AR-15s. If your 24" SS heavy bbl varmint AR fails while hunting it's no big deal in the big scheme of things. If your M4 style carbine fails when called upon to defend you or your loved ones it could mean a life. As Lee Lapin has said regarding why we carry "It's not the stakes that matter, it's the odds."

If you want a strictly hunting, range, or plinking use AR-15 buy whatever one you like best. If you're considering an AR for defensive use at all, learn what the differences in parts are, and decide which ones matter to you. Then buy accordingly.

However, given the current political situation and consumer demand level, I'd advise buying whatever AR you can get your hands on.

rob_s
November 11, 2008, 08:43 AM
Here we go again.

If you don't know, or understand, the various features in The Chart then you need to review the Google Doc or pick up a copy of this month's Surefire Presents Guns & Ammo Combat Tactics and turn to page 64 to find an article written by me along with the Chart.

Don't read any more into The Chart than what is there.

However, there ARE certain assumptions made with interpreting The Chart and the writeup.

First is that you're interested in defensive use of the carbine. Most people would therefore agree that longevity and reliability (not in that order) are the two most important things in this case. As such, the features listed are relative to those concerns.

Second is that you're not out looking for 1/4 MOA accuracy. The hard truth is that most people can't shoot that well to begin with, and aren't going to use ammo capable of that accuracy in this type of rifle. I would submit that if what you're looking for is a bench-rest one-holer than a 16", M4 profile barrel, with a collapsible stock and GI trigger are NOT what you should be shopping for.

Third is that people want the best quality they can get at a given price. The features listed (assuming that you've decided for yourself that these features are desirable) all cost money to include in a rifle. As such, the more features you have the more expensive the rifle will be. If you don't want the features, then you can use The Chart to find the rifle with the features that you DO want and which carbines have those features.

I hear things all the time like "my Bushmaster is more accurate than my buddy's Colt" or "my Oly has run for 10k rounds without a hiccup" or "my DPMS only cost me $600". Great. Fantastic. I am extremely happy for you, and if you are happy with what you bought then I would never suggest (other than in jest) that you part with it. However, keep in mind that you are limited to sample sizes of one, or two, or whatever. What is relayed in the Chart is fact to the best of my knowledge, and there are ways to have the Chart adjusted if you disagree with the facts.

Make of it what you will, use it for what it's intended, but don't get offended that your pet carbine sample size 1 (or even 10) is further to the right than you would prefer. Soldier on with whatever makes you happy. Nobody is asking you to do anything other.

Finally, for those that ARE interested in sub MOA accuracy, and ARE capable of firing those kinds of groups, and ARE going to use the kind of ammo that can produce said groups, and DO (for whatever reason) want to do this kind of shooting with an M4-pattern carbine...

Remember this, accuracy (once the above is eliminated) is a fickle thing. Anyone that spends time around a range and keeps their eyes open will see that carbines that are virtually identical in every way will prefer different brands, weights, lengths, loadings, etc. You can have two identical Colt 6920s side-by-side right out of the box and one might find that a Black Hills 77 grain is the most accurate load for that gun, and the other may prefer a 62 grain loading from the same maker. There are so many variables that go into making a rifle accurate that ammo selection has to come into play because those variables can NEVER be identical from gun to gun.

rob_s
November 11, 2008, 08:51 AM
taking your advice i did some research and according to "some charts" (by bushmaster and s&w respectively) that m&p comes with 4140 barrel steel vs. 4150 for the bushmaster.
Yes, that is correct.

Know also, that there are still grades of 4150, and The Chart only says "milspec" if they use the actual Mil-Spec 11595E steel.

IMHO I put more emphasis on MPI/HPT of whatever barrel steel is used and a chrome lining than on the material. non-tested 4150 vs. 4140 is a non issue for me.

rob_s
November 11, 2008, 09:03 AM
To the original poster....

There isn't really anything inherently "wrong" with a Bushmaster that a couple of minutes spent with the proper tools can't rectify. The issue becomes that there are better options available for the same price, significantly better options available for a small margin more, and equal options available for less money.

So the issue with BM, IMHO, comes down to a cost:value issue where the BM ratio isn't as high as some others. This does not mean that the gun is going to blow up in your hands, this does not mean that the gun is likely to shoot 10 MOA, it does not mean that it's going to have failures several times every magazine right out of the box, etc. It just means that, if you value the items listed in the Chart, then there may be better options available that make more economic sense.

My suggestion would be to take a look at the Charles Daly or the S&W M&P which tend to be around the same price as the BM. If you want to save a couple of bucks and still get the same overall quality as a BM, take a look at Stag.

If you're feeling up to it, buyin an LMT upper, lower, and bolt carrier group all separately and assembling them yourself (which is no more difficult than field stripping the gun), then you can get significantly better quality than the BM.

Right now, however, is not hte time to buy. People are going insane, and if you an wait I would. If not, you may have to settle for a BM, and frankly that ain't really all that much of a settlement.

FlyinBryan
November 12, 2008, 08:30 PM
i know im gonna hear it but its so crazy ive got to say it.

went by my indoor range today and there were two guy shooting ar's. one of them i have met before and the other id never seen.

the guy who ive met once before was shooting a rock river and the other guy was shooting a lewis.

as i was walking up the one id never met was walking out with a ammo box.

turns out the lewis had a round jammed ABOVE THE BOLT CARRIER.

this was keeping him from being able to clear the jam because he couldnt pull the charging handle back because the jammed round was crammed up in the reciever behind the catch on the front of the charging handle.

he had gone to the counter to say there was something wrong with the ammo. they came back with the remaining ammo in the box and shot it through a rental rifle, (not sure what kind, didnt stick around to ask)

i dont know how he cleared it or even if he did, but it looked pretty nasty from what i saw. i felt bad for the guy because he was clearly upset.

ugaarguy
November 12, 2008, 08:49 PM
the guy who ive met once before was shooting a rock river and the other guy was shooting a lewis.

as i was walking up the one id never met was walking out with a ammo box.

turns out the lewis had a round jammed ABOVE THE BOLT CARRIER.

this was keeping him from being able to clear the jam because he couldnt pull the charging handle back because the jammed round was crammed up in the reciever behind the catch on the front of the charging handle.
That's very likely a magazine issue. I've had it happen personally with my old Colt SP1 when I was using a surplus Orlite mag (the was a reason they were still cheap, as 30 rounders went, during the '94-'04 AWB). After the gentleman running the range helped me clear it, we did some investigating. The feed lips were weak and it double fed. Best we could figure was that when the double feed happened the second round impacted the first popping the round up above the bolt carrier group, and the BCG wedged the nose of the round into the gas tube opening as it came forward.

Bad mags, lack of lube, and lack of cleaning - in that order - are the three biggest issues we see with AR-15s that come in for service at the shop.

To the OP whichever rifle you buy, invest in good mags for it.

rob_s
November 12, 2008, 10:43 PM
With 5 seconds of training that kind of malfunction (jam goes on toast) can be easily cleared. Not rapidly, but easily. It is, however, the kind of thing that is quickly made much worse when the shooter doesn't know what they are doing, or doesn't have the situational awareness to realize the type of malfunction.

It most often has nothing to do with the rifle as posted above. It's one of those freak things that can happen to anyone or any rifle. Now, if it happened over and over again, with all sorts of different magazines and ammo, I'd be concerned that something was wrong with the rifle.

FlyinBryan
November 13, 2008, 01:04 AM
With 5 seconds of training that kind of malfunction (jam goes on toast) can be easily cleared.

what would you do to easily clear it? the range master tried to pogo it but it was locked up good.

that round was jammed so tight above the bolt that the case had split from the shoulder about halfway back to the case rim where the bolt face hit the case.

(i meant that sucker was malfunctioned so tight above the bolt...........)lol

rob_s
November 13, 2008, 06:19 AM
Pogoing (I assume you mean "mortaring" by pulling back on the charging handle while banging the closed stock on the ground) can in fact make it worse. You *might* have some luck with this method if you are able to push the charging handle all the way forward until it latches and then just do the banging part without tugging on it. I say *MIGHT*.

What I would do, and what I was taught to do, is to stick something like the back edge of a sturdy knife or a flat-head blade of a multi-tool into the ejection port and push back on the bolt face. This allows you to separate the bolt and the attached gas key from the leading edge of the charging handle. If possible, the charging handle should still be locked in the forward position.

What usually happens, however, is people yank and yank and yank on the charging handle to the point that they really wedge the whole thing in tight, then hand the gun off to an "expert" who continues to make the problem worse, and THEN come find me and can't believe that I can't fix it. :banghead:

:D

It's definitely a frustrating thing to have happen on the range, but if immediate action and remedial action don't fix the problem (or, if after attempting immediate action you stop and assess and figure out the problem) then it's time to get out a tool.

Check out this month's SWAT for an article by Pat Rogers on malfunction clearance. I believe it's a "part 1" and covers immediate and remedial, with more to follow. You should buy next month's copy anyway since I'll have an article in it. :cool:

FlyinBryan
November 13, 2008, 08:18 PM
What I would do, and what I was taught to do, is to stick something like the back edge of a sturdy knife or a flat-head blade of a multi-tool into the ejection port and push back on the bolt face.

that sounds logical and very likely would have worked but they probably did this

What usually happens, however, is people yank and yank and yank on the charging handle to the point that they really wedge the whole thing in tight

You should buy next month's copy anyway since I'll have an article in it.

will it be the december issue? and will i be able to tell its by you? like "author: rob (insert last name)"

because i will get it and check it out. (might be cool to have corrosponded with the author of a piece from a mag, lol)

i actually used to subscribe to it and guns and weapons for law enforcement (years ago, 1999-2000 if i remember right)

rob_s
November 13, 2008, 08:27 PM
The December issue is out now with part 1 of Pat's article. The January issue will be out in the first week or so of December.

HankB
November 13, 2008, 08:34 PM
I have a Bushmaster. It had a minor problem with the sights, so Bushmaster had the upper picked up at my home by UPS, they fixed it right, and shipped it back, all at no expense to me. They stand behind their products - I like that in a company, and I like the rifle; some thousands of rounds with the only other problem traced to one specific "refinished" magazine.

In my experience with a different Colt's firearm (not an AR) I discovered that Colt's does not actually honor their warranty; they only go through the motions.

They also did things to their rifles like removing the bayonet lug before the law required them to, and they still restrict official "non-LE" sales more than the law requires.

Their rifles generally work well, but I don't deal with shady companies. Plus, many Colt's rifles come with non-standard pins and a non-standard steel block in the lower; supposedly to prevent "machine gun" parts from being installed, it makes working on the gun more difficult than it ought to be. (Maybe this isn't done to their gray market "LE Only" rifles?)

rob_s
November 13, 2008, 08:52 PM
2008 is knocking on the door Hank.

Nikon777
January 27, 2009, 12:18 AM
The chart always causes controversy, lol. I'm a fan of the chart, and I just bought a Bushmaster. Why u ask?, I already have one AR, and due to the availability of ARs now, I had to take what I could get. All the while knowing I'd upgrade the inferior parts later.
_______

Many of you forget or fail to mention that you can upgrade just about everything but the barrel. I can order a Bravo Company bolt carrier group and take care of the entire bolt section of the chart for my Bushy. And it's nothing to stake the castle nut and swap in an H buffer. All of the other stuff the Bushy has, or is simply trivial. Feed the AR quality ammo and run it wet, and it should run like a sewing machine.
--------
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

Still Too Many Choices!?
January 27, 2009, 10:29 AM
Bought my Bushie in 2003 during the ban, it's been going strong ever since. It has changed a lot from the basic A3 with 14.5" barrel and permanent AK brake that I bought, but it's still my most favorite gun to shoot. It now sports a collapsible stock, surefire railed forend, vfg, eotech, and 4Xmagnifier knockoff with f-t-s mount, fold down buis, and sometimes a flashlight :D!!

Welcome to the addiction...
Still 2 Many Choices!?

bkb0000
January 29, 2009, 04:48 AM
prices are so effed up right now, if it's all you can get then get it. and you're right, you can drop some do'h and make them better weapons.

as a nose-thumber of bushmasters, i approve this message. :)

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