Equalize the gun lobbies, two gorillas better than one


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No Fear
November 9, 2008, 05:36 PM
You've probably been hearing the screaming from some people to join the nra and that if you don't join the nra you're a traitor.

I'm not going to knock anyone who wants to join the nra in this current time of panic and fear. It's a good idea to put our energy in the same direction of protecting the 2nd amendment.

I constantly hear the phrase "800 lb gorilla" when mentioning the nra. I have a question. Is it better to have one "800 lb gorilla" or an 800 lb gorilla WITH a 200 pounder standing nearby, who is also pissed off, and has a slightly different personality? In other words, can you win a football game with ONLY a large offensive line, or is it a good idea to maybe have a good half back, and maybe a few good receivers.

Bottom line, I'm hearing a lot of myopic viewpoints about the nra as if it's our only hope and anyone who is not a member is equal to sara brady. I'm simply saying that we need to triple the membership of Gun Owners of America. The GOA bashers who want to divert from this point so they can bash GOA make ALL gun owners weaker. I want to see a second large gun lobby. Do you attack your enemy with all your troops in ONE group or do you STRATEGIZE and send a division around the side to hit your enemy on the flank (rhetorical question).

http://www.gunowners.org/member.htm

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MIL-DOT
November 9, 2008, 08:08 PM
I've been spending more than my usual time perusing THR lately, and I haven't heard anyone saying that the NRA is our only hope,just stating the fact that they're the largest pro-gun lobby, and joining is in our best interest.
And while this statement....."Do you attack your enemy with all your troops in ONE group or do you STRATEGIZE and send a division around the side to hit your enemy on the flank.." has some strategic merit, sometimes the old "united we stand,divided we fall" attitude is the way to go. Would it be better if all revolver owners banded together and made their case, then all bird hunters band together, then all competition shooters,etc ? Or is it better if we approach them as EIGHTY MILLION GUN OWNERS !!! See my point? :)

Mousegun
November 9, 2008, 08:15 PM
I believe that the GOA is less compromising than the NRA.

As the NRA got bigger, we have seen a bit more compromise coming from them. This is probably a necessary part of doing Washington business in their eyes and maybe in reality too but the GOA is still a small enough (although nothing to sneeze at) organization compaired to the NRA. They still have room to not compromise.

armedandsafe
November 9, 2008, 08:31 PM
Don't forget to include SAF in your plans. They are doing much for which they don't get credit. NRA has often ridden on their coattails.

Pops

M203Sniper
November 10, 2008, 01:27 AM
http://www.jpfo.org/

http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/about.htm

The Twin Goals of JPFO

To destroy "gun control" and to encourage Americans to understand and defend all of the Bill of Rights for everyone.

These are the twin goals of Wisconsin-based Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO).

Founded by Jews and initially aimed at educating the Jewish community about the historical evils that Jews have suffered when they have been disarmed, JPFO has always welcomed persons of all religious beliefs who share a common goal of opposing and reversing victim disarmament policies, while advancing liberty for all.

ArmedBear
November 10, 2008, 01:33 AM
I like the JPFO's philosophy. And the GOA definitely doesn't compromise in its over-the-top alarmism. But I kinda like them, too.

What about SAF, though? Sane, and non-compromising.

The real purpose of GOA is to be really extreme, so that the NRA, SAF, et al. can look like the "good guys."

It's all a game. Support whatever players you can.

But recognize that the NRA has been very effective at actually influencing the political process in ways that GOA has not.

jimmyraythomason
November 10, 2008, 01:50 AM
The 800 pound gorilla is a force to be reckoned with. Too bad the 200 pounder spends a lot of it's energy sniping at the 800 pounder.

6_gunner
November 10, 2008, 10:48 AM
I'm considering joining JPFO. Such groups help the public to see that firearms owners are much more diverse than media caricatures would suggest.

I'm debating whether I should also join GOA or if I should just donate more to the NRA.

AirForceShooter
November 10, 2008, 11:17 AM
Sometimes you need the little gorilla to get the big one moving.

AFS

jimmyraythomason
November 10, 2008, 11:28 AM
Of course the 200 pound gorilla could always JOIN the 800 pound gorilla to become a 1000 pound gorilla.

Seenterman
November 10, 2008, 11:34 AM
+1 For the idea, some gun owners do not go along with the NRA, and some see it a a Fudd Club, not helping the EBR crowd, which in my opinion is where the gun grabbers will start first. It's happened before. . .
I still cant get a colapsable stock for my AR thanks to stupid NYS AW Law.
Well if I got an AR with a non removable mag, then I could . . but I digress.

Remember alot of people (Anti's) have been conditioned to think NRA = BAD, they want guns for EVERYONE and FELONS! (I've actually seen this claim on the Democratic Underground)

So if we had another lobbing group that people arn't familiar with and makes them say "umm what are they all about?" might be a good thing for us

No Fear
November 10, 2008, 01:03 PM
+1 For the idea, some gun owners do not go along with the NRA, and some see it a a Fudd Club, not helping the EBR crowd, which in my opinion is where the gun grabbers will start first. It's happened before. . .
I still cant get a colapsable stock for my AR thanks to stupid NYS AW Law.
Well if I got an AR with a non removable mag, then I could . . but I digress.

Remember alot of people (Anti's) have been conditioned to think NRA = BAD, they want guns for EVERYONE and FELONS! (I've actually seen this claim on the Democratic Underground)

So if we had another lobbing group that people arn't familiar with and makes them say "umm what are they all about?" might be a good thing for usWell put.

Of course the 200 pound gorilla could always JOIN the 800 pound gorilla to become a 1000 pound gorilla.I already dealt with this. Obsession with size is trumped by being able to hit your enemy from multiple sides and from multiple sources.Sometimes you need the little gorilla to get the big one moving.

AFSAmen.
I'm considering joining JPFO. Such groups help the public to see that firearms owners are much more diverse than media caricatures would suggest.
Exactly. Some of you are doing a fantastic job of describing the phenomenon that we are WEAKER if we are seen as being one target (i.e. the nra). I'm amazed that some people are still suggesting that we should put our entire navy on one ship. Forcing the enemy to target multiple ships makes things harder for them. If they only have to target the nra then we have a fatal strategic problem. Something that encompasses an entire nation of hundreds of millions shouldn't be under one gun lobby anyway. It makes us look small.

ArmedBear
November 10, 2008, 01:06 PM
The 800 pound gorilla is a force to be reckoned with. Too bad the 200 pounder spends a lot of it's energy sniping at the 800 pounder.

More like 20 pounder. I think that GOA is self-serving.

Can they point to any legislation they've helped get enacted or repealed? Anyone they've influenced?

I'd like to see an effective GOA, but right now I just see an organization that takes shots at the NRA to get donations.

Yeah, GOA is represented in the media... On Coast-to-Coast AM, with the alien abductees...

RPCVYemen
November 10, 2008, 01:29 PM
I'm simply saying that we need to triple the membership of Gun Owners of America.

When I look up GOA, I find Larry Pratt. When I look up Larry Pratt, I find that he spoke at a neo-Nazi/Christian Identity/militia rally in Estes Park in 1992.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Pratt

Has he repudiated those movements and what they stand for? That's not an argument - it's a question. I would be happy to hear that he had repudiated them.

Mike

No Fear
November 10, 2008, 01:51 PM
When I look up GOA, I find Larry Pratt. When I look up Larry Pratt, I find that he spoke at a neo-Nazi/Christian Identity/militia rally in Estes Park in 1992.So what. Why do you even care? This issue is bigger than Larry Pratt and you know it. I don't appreciate the off topic garbage that is not even from this DECADE. Take your personal attacks elsewhere. You got anything credible OR recent to support your point (whatever your point is)? Yea I didn't think so.

Can they point to any legislation they've helped get enacted or repealed? Anyone they've influenced?
That is a perfectly legitimate question but it sounds like you didn't bother to glance GOA's website. GOA has influenced a lot of legislation. When Feinstein screeched from the senate floor that GOA's motto is "no compromise" then they must be having an effect. The most recent influence was the hold that was placed on the veterans disarmament act a few months ago after GOA threw a fit about the deeply flawed bill. Some minor changes were made. NRA bashed everyone who was opposed to the bill on it's ILA website.

I would like to restate the purpose of this thread: I want to see MULTIPLE decent sized gun lobbies attacking the anti gunners, not just one. I'm saying this because in the current panic, we're seeing a lot of people only urging that gun owners join the nra as they openly claim that size is all that matters. I say strategy matters more than size.

RPCVYemen
November 10, 2008, 02:02 PM
So what. Why do you even care?

I'd like to be sure that there is no connection between GOA and the neo-Nazi/Christian Identity/militia movement(s) before I join.

I don't appreciate the off topic garbage that is not even from this DECADE.

The topic was (in part) about joining the GOA. I asked a question about the founder of the GOA. Do you know if he has if fact repudiated those movements?

Mike

SuperNaut
November 10, 2008, 02:04 PM
I support the NRA and CATO, that way I am supporting two 800# gorillas. This is what allows the little monkeys the ability to chatter from the safety of the trees.

No Fear
November 10, 2008, 02:17 PM
I support the NRA and CATO, that way I am supporting two 800# gorillas. Meanwhile the little monkeys chatter from the safety of the trees.You sound like you are saying that there is only one approach: the large group approach, and that individuals banding together in smaller groups has no merit.

SuperNaut
November 10, 2008, 02:37 PM
You sound like you are saying that there is only one approach: the large group approach, and that individuals banding together in smaller groups has no merit.

Is there not a difference between a hobbyist and a professional? IMHO merit in this instance would be directly tied to efficacy, your criteria may differ.

Although why you would want to financially support a group that is ineffective is beyond me. For giggles?

SoCalShooter
November 10, 2008, 03:24 PM
Of course the 200 pound gorilla could always JOIN the 800 pound gorilla to become a 1000 pound gorilla.

The 200 pound gorilla could be the 800 pound gorilla's tail gunner...why is this turning out to sound a lot like donkey kong?

La Pistoletta
November 10, 2008, 03:52 PM
Guns rights will never stop being under attack until and unless individual rights as a concept, with the proper philosophical foundation, are cemented in law.

lonegunman
November 10, 2008, 04:01 PM
There are plenty of gun owners organizations out there. BUT, the NRA is a lot more than simply a one issue group.

The NRA is the organizing body for nearly all shooting sports in America. They support law enforcement training and education, and pretty much every training program for any group of people in America is being trained by the NRA.

They have the largest and most powerful lobby, represent the largest and most diverse group of gun owners, maintain the National Firearms Museum and are the best organized and best funded of the groups.

In the end we won't have two 800 pound gorillas, we could end up with two 400 pound gorillas and a lot less respect from our enemies.

Just my opinion of course, but if you want to join two then join two, but keep the NRA as your top organization.

hso
November 10, 2008, 06:26 PM
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=292484

No Fear
November 10, 2008, 06:31 PM
the 200 pound gorilla could be the 800 pound gorilla's tail gunner...why is this turning out to sound a lot like donkey kong?lolz :D

JImbothefiveth
November 10, 2008, 06:33 PM
Are you sure it wouldn't just cause division? For instance, the most pro-gun candidate to ever make it past the primaries is running, but he(os she) doesn't believe felons should be allowed to have guns. Wouldn't the GOA attack him for that, rather than support him for being as pro-gun as he(or she) is?

john1911
November 10, 2008, 06:39 PM
Too bad the 200 pounder spends a lot of it's energy sniping at the 800 pounder.

This is the way I see it. Why send money to a group that will spend that money trying to ridicule another group working for the same thing?

ArmedBear
November 10, 2008, 06:45 PM
Wouldn't the GOA attack him for that, rather than support him for being as pro-gun as he(or she) is?

Absolutely.

And this is not a hypothetical, either.

Fred Thompson, AFAIK, voted for the Lautenberg Amendment, though I don't think he's particularly proud of that in hindsight. However, he strongly believes in the individual right to keep and bear arms, in the right to armed self-defense, and concealed carry rights. Furthermore, he articulates these things and doesn't just say, "I love sportsmen!"

I'd love to have him as a serious candidate. He didn't lie about his gun record, one way or another. But I'd hate to see the trash that GOA would throw his way if he mounted a serious campaign in the future.

JImbothefiveth
November 10, 2008, 06:52 PM
That's a shame. I'm not against there being more than one gun lobby, but I'm not comfortable with supporting one that would actually hurt gun rights.

No Fear
November 10, 2008, 07:11 PM
Are you sure it wouldn't just cause division? For instance, the most pro-gun candidate to ever make it past the primaries is running, but he(os she) doesn't believe felons should be allowed to have guns. Wouldn't the GOA attack him for that, rather than support him for being as pro-gun as he(or she) is?Are you talking about a specific candidate? If that is merely hypothetical, I can answer that based on years of getting GOA's email alerts. First, I guarantee that GOA would MENTION a stated anti 2nd amendment position such as saying that all felons should be forever stripped of their rights to self defense, HOWEVER you use the word "attack." GOA doesn't "attack" people unless they attack gun owners and our rights. If a candidate was 99% pro second amendment and he/she were running against and anti, especially in a normally anti gun district, of COURSE GOA would support them. Come on folks please don't jump to ridiculous conclusions. GOA merely opens the record and gives the full picture of a candidate, but doesn't "attack" them if they're not an "A+" unless that candidate is openly hostile to us.

Don't just take MY word for it, sign up for GOA's email alerts and see for yourself. http://www.gunowners.org/ean.htm

Over the years, I have seen GOA help out some really good pro gun candidates in the primaries that I otherwise would not have heard about, and frequently they've beaten spineless incumbents and/or candidates with wishy washy records on the 2nd amendment who got endorsements from the establishment.

Archie
November 10, 2008, 09:24 PM
I encourage everyone to join several of the pro gun groups. I'm a Life Member of the NRA and the Second Amendment Foundation. I'm a member of a couple others. I read all the flyers I get from various groups and the only one I find attacking other groups is Vince S(omebody) writing in Shotgun News.

Unless I can tell the group is a fraud - like the "American Hunters -" group, I support them to some degree. The more pro-gun groups we have the better off we are.

onebigelf
November 10, 2008, 09:38 PM
I'm a BIG fan of the JPFO. I appreciate the successes of the NRA, but they have from time to time sold out the fact that the primary purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow us to protect ourselves from abuse by our own government. I'm not ok with that so I don't send them my money anymore. 2A isn't about hunting. I don't oppose others supporting the NRA, but my money goes to purer ideals.

John

Highland Ranger
November 10, 2008, 10:40 PM
GOA needs to spend a little money on their web site - the 1998 version is unprofessional. Was thinking about joining, but that turned me off . . . .

JImbothefiveth
November 13, 2008, 07:16 PM
Are you talking about a specific candidate?
Well, kind of. My description applied more to his vice president, but he was still pretty pro-gun.

5knives
November 13, 2008, 10:02 PM
NRA spent a huge amount of money on ads and mailings here prior to the recent election. TV, Radio, direct mail, guess I noticed about Five good ads per day on average leading up to 11/04.

That's VERY expensive at National Ad rates!

Nary a GOA ad to be seen, not one!

None from JPFO either, but Aaron doesn't have that kind of money, buy the JPFO material and distribute it, that's what I do.

Belonged to GOA for 6 years, got tired of nothing but posturing, empty rhetoric and sniping at the NRA. CCKBA (5 years) wasn't much better.

Today, JPFO and NRA Life Member!

I think I'm getting good value for my money!

YMMV and that's okay too!

Regards,
:)

raz-0
November 14, 2008, 03:38 PM
I'm puzzled by all the arguing.

For less than the mark up on a a post election AR, i can join the NRA, SAF, GOA, and the JPFO. Probably even have a little left over for an NRA_ILA donation and throw an extra $10 at each of the others, or join a state association of gun owners.


I've got to await until my next paycheck, but that is my plan.

Rimmer
November 14, 2008, 07:18 PM
No Fear,
Over the years, I have seen GOA help out some really good pro gun candidates in the primaries that I otherwise would not have heard about, and frequently they've beaten spineless incumbents and/or candidates with wishy washy records on the 2nd amendment who got endorsements from the establishment.

Names?

pbearperry
November 14, 2008, 07:38 PM
I may be totally wrong in my feelings here,but the NRA has been here since right after the Civil War.For many years they were the only kid in town.Now there are so many gun rights outfits that I totally get confused.If all the others are doing such a great job,why is it that the gungrabbers never attack them?Only the NRA is hated by them.Seems to me,the others are just pretenders that have created a bunch of jobs for folks that cannot work for a living.If I am wrong,please set me straight with solid facts,not flaming hysteria.

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