M193 (5.56x45mm) - Bad ammo batches?


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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 9, 2008, 10:45 PM
Today I shot my XCR. Results were poor to mediocre accuracy, as follows (all at 100 yards, all from a solid rest with 6x scope):

1. M193 55 gr: 5.5"-6.0" 20-shot groups (not good at all)

2. Black Hills 68 gr, counting fliers: 3.5" 10-shot group (bleh)
3. Black Hills 68 gr, NOT counting fliers: 1.75" 10-shot group (7 out of 10 in 1.75" - OK, good).

So the black hills is acceptable but not great. I understand this is a battle rifle, not a precision rifle. But still, my questions are as follows:

A. Which batches of M193 were rough? What years/countries/identifying marks on the bad ammo?
B. Are the terribly crappy (unacceptable) groups (#1) with this ammo likely the rifle or likely the ammo? I guess it's *probably* the ammo, since the black hills performed ok. BUT, I can't help but thinking that maybe the black hills would have been around 1" if this were a non-lemon barrel, perhaps, and the 193 would have been closer to 3" instead of 6".
C. What other ammo do you recommend I try in the XCR? - it is the one with 16" 1 in 9 bbl.

Thanks.

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Hoppy590
November 9, 2008, 11:20 PM
im not sure what your asking.

you havnt specified what kind of M193 you were using ( nationality, headstamps etc) aslo the blackhills 68gr is by definition NOT m193.

HorseSoldier
November 9, 2008, 11:23 PM
Was the 55 grain actual mil-spec M193 from Lake City or some other US government sanctioned source, or was it 55 grain "M193 type" or something like that?

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 9, 2008, 11:24 PM
I understand that. The black hills shoots "fine" (so-so).


The 193 shoots like arse - I'm wondering WHY it's so very very bad - worse than I've experienced in the past (with AR15). Let me dig out the crap ammo - hang on....

P-32
November 10, 2008, 12:17 AM
The Black Hills ammo should be stacking holes on top of holes. I've never shot any Black Hills ammo that did not shoot very well. FYI Black Hills makes the ammo for the USMC shooing team.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 10, 2008, 12:22 AM
See, this is what's got me concerned....

HorseSoldier
November 10, 2008, 12:43 AM
True -- if you're 55 grain stuff was from a reputable source (i.e. gives service ammo sort of accuracy) 5-6 MOA isn't acceptable (half that, though, would be). 1.75" for the Black Hills stuff (if you know the flyers were you and not the gun) would be maybe a little sloppy, but less out of line (in my opinion).

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 10, 2008, 07:45 AM
Wait a minute. I'm an idiot.

This stuff is NOT M193. It is

SS109
Lot No. IK 03-01
Made in Bosnia & Herzegovina

Sorry. But that's the crap ammo (in my gun) - any bad batches of it?

I need to start the whole thread over, since the subject line is incorrect....

stubbicatt
November 10, 2008, 08:02 AM
Some ammo doesn't shoot as well in some guns as it does in other guns. To call it crap ammo because it doesn't shoot well in your rifle may be a bit off base.

The FMJ projectiles are not noted for their outstanding accuracy in much of any platform. The single exception to that rule that I have discovered is the bulk Hornady 55 FMJ (223), and 150gr FMJ (308). These will shoot pretty much right at 1 MOA for me in most any rifle I shoot them in.

Hoppy590
November 10, 2008, 08:50 AM
This stuff is NOT M193. It is

SS109
Lot No. IK 03-01
Made in Bosnia & Herzegovina

Sorry. But that's the crap ammo (in my gun) - any bad batches of it?


Igman SS109/m855 it is plinking ammo for sure. try some Lake City ammo then get back to us.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 10, 2008, 10:11 AM
try some Lake City ammo then get back to us.

Aye, aye, Cap'n. :)

Some ammo doesn't shoot as well in some guns as it does in other guns. To call it crap ammo because it doesn't shoot well in your rifle may be a bit off base.


Point taken, stubbicat - you are correct, of course. :)

HorseSoldier
November 10, 2008, 12:46 PM
If it's built to real NATO specs, SS109 can be up to a 3 MOA sort of round (the steel core penetrator seems to produce QC/consistency problems and slop in accuracy), but you're still grouping twice what I'd think 109 would give on its worst day.

+1 on trying some more different and/or better ammo as an initial move. Were the groups just random around point of aim?

MisterPX
November 10, 2008, 06:11 PM
How's your shooting skill?

MechAg94
November 10, 2008, 07:12 PM
I have quite a bit of the Radway Green SS109. I have hardly shot it at all. I guess I need to start using it for plinking so I can reload it.

67Yv8t
November 10, 2008, 07:56 PM
Get rid of all the built up copper and lead, not just the black powder residue. Copper and lead will always be left behind in the lans and grooves when you fire a round through the barrel, use a borescope to inspect it from end to end.

Check the riflings all the way up and down.

Many highly competent shooters don't "KNOW" if their gun cleaning methods actually work.

Many people who purchased a borescope were aghast at what they found in their own barrels.

It could be that Black hills ammo will group better out of a bad barrel then surplus or no name ammo. But no ammo will group "Well" out of a dirty barrel.

longdayjake
November 10, 2008, 08:11 PM
Okay, my bet is on bad scope mounting or even a scope defect. If you are using a bench rest there is no reason anything should be shooting 3" groups. I had issues with mine doing something similar until I got better mounts and a better scope. I went from 2" with some crazy fliers to sub 1" out of a 20 round mag. Even if you never cleaned the barrel after 1000 rounds it should shoot smaller than 3" groups.

If you still think its the ammo then send the bullets to me and I will shoot them through my gun and we can see.

Also, what is your barrel twist? You may have a 1-12" twist that makes heavy bullets tumble or keyhole. You won't get good accuracy from them that way. Good luck!

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