[scottwchristie@yahoo.com]

I am new to this forum so please excuse the noob and/or duplicate question.

My wife and I are looking to purchase hand guns for home protection and for carry and conceal. I have already read a lot about the stopping power and muzzle velocity of the 357. Clearly it is more powerful than a 38. However, I have also read at this site that a quick 2nd shot is more difficult because of the recoil and if you are small (like my wife) the weapon may have to be repositioned in your hand to be fired again.

1. My question is in regards to stopping power. Will the 38 loaded with hollow points still get the job done as well as a 357? (I assume the goal here is if you can't kill them in one shot it is good to knock them down or let them know right away that they have been shot vs. stories I've heard about people being shot with 9mm and not even realizing it because of their adrenaline or Drug rush.)

2. We have decided on the S & W brand, snub, hammerless, lightweight. Any models you could recommend based on your answer to #1?

3. I've seen a .357 magnum go through a car door on youtube. Will it go through my drywall/hardy plank and hit my neighbors house if I miss someone?

Thanks.

[ArmedBear]

knock them down

I don't think any handgun will do that, or at least one your wife will want to shoot, or anyone will want to shoot indoors. There's also a difference between a gun one might shoot at silhouette targets, or use for big game hunting, and an effective defensive gun. My big .44 packs a wallop on both ends. Followup shots would be slow.

let them know right away that they have been shot vs. stories I've heard about people being shot with 9mm and not even realizing it because of their adrenaline or Drug rush.

9mm with modern defensive hollowpoint bullets is somewhere between the old .38 Special and .357 Magnum in effectiveness. These stories have some truth to them, maybe, but I'd ignore them for your purposes. There's not much you can do if someone doesn't respond to being shot, other than shoot them again, no matter what caliber.

2. We have decided on the S & W brand, snub, hammerless, lightweight. Any models you could recommend based on your answer to #1?

642 or 442 (different color, otherwise the same). Great little gun. Do wrist exercises, but they're not that bad if you hold them right. Cor-Bon .38 Special +P rounds work well and don't kick terribly.

Don't expect to shoot this gun for fun. If you want to put 100 rounds through a revolver at tin cans for recreation, buy a heavier, longer-barreled stainless full size gun like a 686+ 4" or 6".

Don't waste your money on the much more expensive .357 version. You'll never use .357's in it anyway, once you try it, unless your wife has a monster grip. The .357 rounds hurt to shoot. As you said, they have overpenetration issues anyway. Hell yes, they'll go right through your wall.

[indiandave]

.357's fired from a light weight revolver are painful. .38+p is not all that bad compared to a .357. With a 357 follow up shots will take longer..That being said a S&W model 60 with a 3" barrel gives you the ability to shoot .38 or .357 this gun is made of stainless steel and weighs about 24 oz. a Model 637 weighs in at about 15 oz. If this is a first gun I would go with the heavier gun. This would make it easier to shoot.

[Majic]

Judging by your post both you and your wife are new or fairly new to shooting handguns. Your selection of a lightweight, DAO, snub revolver is one of the hardest firearms to shoot and a very poor choice. Lightweight means higher recoil. DAO means the trigger is somewhat difficult to manipulate. Snub nose means short sight radius along with the small sights making them hard to aim. They really are guns for an experienced shooter. A lot of people find this out to late and either become poor shooters or sell the firearm taking a loss in the process. Don't pay attention to all the folklore. Many have been shot with the .357 and never missed a beat in the engagement. Many buy the so call mighty .357 only to find they can't adequately control it and that is especially true of the small featherweight models. You would most likely be better off with an all steel 4 inch barrel revolver until you learn to master the basics of shooting.

[The Bushmaster]

Get her a good S&W .38 Special and some training. If she can handle .38 Specials when target practicing she wil have no problem, under stress, handling .38 Specials +P in 125 grain up to 140 grain. A set of quality rubber grips will help too.

[scottwchristie@yahoo.com]

Thank you for your replies and it is all good information. However, we are trying to avoid the larger handguns because of the carry and conceal issue I mentioned.

So the consensus so far is:

1. A 357 magnum round WILL go through my wall and into a neighbors house?

2. Based on what I already said we might be better off with a standard .38 with hollow points to beef up the stopping power?

[6_gunner]

1. A .357 will almost certainly go through a wall, but a .38 probably will, too. Either way, overpenetration is much less of a concern if you hit what you're aiming at, so be sure to practice.

2. A good .38 will be plenty, but a .357 will give you the option of using either .38s or .357s. I would feel adequately armed with either one. If you do get a .357, I'd recommend starting out shooting .38s and then working up to full power loads.

You might consider a Ruger SP 101 in .357. It's big enough to handle .357s without too much discomfort, but small enough to conceal with relative ease.

If concealability is a prime concern, you might also consider a S&W model 36 in .38. If concealability is less of a concern, the bigger S&W model 10 in .38, model 13 in .357 or model 19 in .357 are all fine guns.

[woad_yurt]

Those little, lightweight magnum S&W snubbies are downright vicious to shoot. Majic is right on the mark here. I shot someone's with magnums at the range once and it was quite an eye opener, ridiculous, almost. I had been thinking about getting one for carry and, after that, changed my mind. It was just too difficult to control.

Personally, I'd check out the small steel ones with .38s rather than the lightweight jobs with magnums; they are much more manageable. The extra weight soaks up recoil and they come very small, too. If you are very new to shooting (I don't know,) get some skill under your belt first with .38s. A regular, ol' .38SPL will turn anyone's best day into their worst. Then, you could see how you feel about +Ps.

BTW, to answer your question, there's a decent chance that a .357 will probably go through your drywall/hardy plank into your neighbor's house even if you do hit someone. Not a good gun for the living room.

[Daniel1120]

Yes, the 357 will go through your walls possibly the neighbors, in most situations.

Go with +p loads, their fairly more powerful than a standard 38 and a good alternative to the 357. Try the speer gold dot short barrel +p 38 135gr hollow point. Their made especially for short barreled guns.

Get the longest barrel length possible, like the other poster said, snub noses are tough to master. Get at least a 2" barrel, like the S&W 640.

[Noebb]

I would recommend getting two that have similar grips.

1: A 357 revolver with a 6inch barrel and adjustable sights for practice and home defense. You can shoot 357 and 38 in it. It will be much more enjoyable and effective than a snub nose.

2: A 38 (+P) snub noses for carry. You will probably find that you will not want to put more than 10 rounds though it when practicing. The lighter the better because if it's heavy it will be left at home when you get tired of the weight.

edit:
A few additional thoughts.
-If you do get a 357 and shoot a lot of 38 in it you will need to take extra time/care to clean the chamber to remove leading that will happen because 38 is slightly shorter than the 357.
- A 357 magnum (6inch) will be more fun to shoot. Has more stopping power, and most will be more accurate with it.
- A 38 snub nose will be less accurate than a longer barrel because of the distance between the sights (short barrel) but with a little practice you should not have a problem hitting center of mass at 7 to 25 yards.

[rdrancher]

I honestly wouldn't go smaller than a S&W Model 640, Model 60, or even better, a 3" SP101 for your first wheelgun. Short, lightweight snubbies aren't really for beginning shooters. If you have any doubts, just visit the 642 Club and see for yourself how many experienced shooters are mystified by their inability to hit the target with these little lightweights.

One suggestion, Don't even think about handing a lightweight snubby to your wife loaded with 38 Special +P ammo for her first practice shots. She will not like it. And handing her an Airlite loaded with magnum rounds of any flavor might turn her off to ever firing a handgun again.

rd

[GRIZ22]

1. My question is in regards to stopping power. Will the 38 loaded with hollow points still get the job done as well as a 357?

A 38 can't get the job done as well as a 357 otherwise there would be no reason for the 357. A 38 +p can do a pretty good job and I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 38+P. Shot placement is more important 38 or 357. A 38 wadcutter (least powerful factory load) placed center mass would be a much better stopper than a 357 in the BG's foot.

We have decided on the S & W brand, snub, hammerless, lightweight. Any models you could recommend based on your answer to #1?

If your wife is small and recoil sensitive this is absolutely the worst gun to get for her to use even with 38 +P. Recoil is basically a function of the weight of the gun vs the weight of the bullet, powder, and velocity factor. Everything else being equal an alloy frame gun has about twice the felt recoil as a steel frame of the same model. If your wife is tiny (like mine) get at least a 4" K frame size gun or even an L frame. Your wife might want to take a break when shooting because the gun will feel heavy. I guarantee 5 shots in an alloy J frame will hurt any interest she has in shooting in addition to her hand. You also don't gain a lot in a +P in a 2" barrel. I have all steel J frame guns and I load with a factory wadcutter.

3. I've seen a .357 magnum go through a car door on youtube. Will it go through my drywall/hardy plank and hit my neighbors house if I miss someone?


Yes it will and so will a +P 38. You can minimize this by using a light (110 grain) bullet or a wadcutter. Notice I said minimize as you will get penetration through drywall no matter what you use. Magnums will penetrate more layers than 38 but 38s will go through 2 or 3 walls also.

[jad0110]

As this will be your first handgun, I would stick to an all-steel revolver, and I'd carry it an In-the-Waistband (IWB) holster on a good sturdy gun belt. And for belt carry barrel length is not as critical, so I'd go with 2.5=4" length. You can get a 357 Magnum if you wish, but I would stick to loading it with 38 Special until you are at least as proficient with 357 Magnum. I do fine with 357, but I am a slightly better shot with 38 Spl, so that's what I stick to. Of the factors you can control, shot placement and bullet penetration are key. You've got to put the bullet where it counts, and that bullet has to penetrate deep enough to strike something important to the bad guy's functioning so that he ceases his attack as rapidly as possible. Good 38 loads will work just fine, in that regard. I prefer Remington's "FBI Load", a 158 grain +P Lead Semi Wadcutter Hollowpoint (LSWCHP), product # R38S12.

As for your wife, women generally don't have as many carry options as men. If she is going to carry in a standard purse she can probably get up to a 3" revolver; 4" if she gets a purse designed for CCW. I'd also recommend all steel for her first gun, though it'll certainly be a "drag". Later, you can both pick up lighter snubs once you become proficient with your steelies. I highly recommend the S&W 642 or 442. The 638 is a very nice gun as well, in addition to a number of light weight snubs from Taurus.

Oh yeah, and if possible, pick up a 22 while you are at it. Everyone needs a good 22 for affordable, flinch free practice.

As for penetration through walls, anything that is going to penetrate deeply enough in human tissue to reliably stop a threat is going to penetrate walls, both interior drywall and exterior walls. This is why I use buckshot in my home defense shotgun instead of birdshot. So as others have said, the best insurance against penetration through exterior walls is not to miss!

[cpirtle]

A 38 is not in the same ballpark as the 357 in terms of ballistics, but a lot of people have died from being shot with a 38. Lots of good advice in this thread.

One of my favorite carry pieces is an M&P 360. I shoot a lot and have very strong hands - shooting the 360 with 357's is a handful and has been known to bloody my knuckle after 25-35 rounds.

An excellent compromise is the Model 60-Pro. I have one and find it's an excellent steel alternative to the M&P and much more enjoyable to shoot. Still pretty stout with the 357's but not nearly as bad as the lightweight. It also has a 3" barrel to take advantage of some of the extra power a 357 has to offer.

http://www.pirtleranch.com/images/Guns/busse_pc60/busse_60_1.jpg

[Noebb]

When I was a beginning shooter I was better with the lightweight snubby (38 Special +P) than any other hand gun that I shot. I guess it depends on the shooter? Beginners luck?
That has changed as I have gotten much better with the other calibers and used to the recoil of the autos.

My wife will not touch the snubby. She used it once and because of the pain in her had/wrist she refuses to try it again. My wife's friend has no problem with the snubby.

The point is that everyone is different, what works for one may not work for others.

Do you live close to a range that will rent handguns? If so, try few before taking the plunge. Maybe take a lesson at the same time.



.

[langenc]

Let your wife pick out her own gun!!

Try to find a local club that has pistol shooting and go on 'pistol night.' Most shooters would let one shoot their gun(s). Otherwise go to a range and rent a couple different models.

[Zeede]

I agree with the folks recommend a .38 Special. The key for your wife is to have confidence in her ability to shoot the gun well. Hurting her hand and scaring her with a full-house .357 Magnum is a great way to turn her off from shooting the gun, and you need to shoot it a lot to build the confidence one needs to have in their home defense gun. You've got to be able to shoot it well and accurately in your sleep.

I always tell people looking to get their first gun, usually for home defense, that they need to put at least 500 rounds through the gun to begin to be at the level of proficiency and comfort needed for a middle-of-the-night, adrenaline-pumping encounter.

As far as stopping power goes, and penetration through walls, I'll just say this:

Anything that doesn't penetrate a few sheets of drywall won't penetrate your bad guy.

Any effective home defense round is going to penetrate many drywall sheets, so again, you must practice because you are responsible for where any missed shots go.

Cameron

[pps]

In all of the above mentioned posts you have received some good advise. The .357 will get you some added velocity to make expansion of the bullet more likely, whereas the lhp for the 38 had better be made from some very soft lead. The pictures below are from a .357 (158gr sjhp @ somewhere around 1250fps) and 38 (the 158gr lhp @ 850fps)

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l96/pps_2006/ZeroBulletspic2.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l96/pps_2006/Hornady.jpg

Given that expansion in all but the softest lead is iffy from a 38, the suggestion for the wadcutter is another low recoil decent self defense option.

I think whatever you pick will have the tendency to over penetrate.

[jaholder1971]

First off, if you're new to handguns, take the NRA first steps classes and the personal protection classes. Worth their weight in gold for a new shooter.

Second, snubbies are harder to shoot than longer barreled firearms no matter the caliber.

One of the S&W airweight .357 snubbies are a nightmare scenario if you shoot full bore loads extensively. A few hundred rounds over the course of a couple can and probably will damage your hand and thumb.

Also: Handgun stopping power is a myth. Even if Marshall and Sanow's work is taken seriously most .38 and .357 loads are going to create a 1 shot stop 70-90 percent of the time IF you put the bullet in the right spot. In gunfights that's rare and even if you're able to the chances are good that a second perfect shot will be needed.

Find the handgun that best fits you and your wife, practice like hell to master it and feed it the most reliable and accurate ammo you can find.

[loneviking]

I'll just chime in and say that you do NOT want a lightweight weapon like the Scandium frames for your wife or any first time shooter. They are painful to shoot. Find a gun from one of the major manufacturers such as S&W or Ruger, three inch barrel is very convenient with better performance than a true snubby, and make sure the gun has some weight to it. The weight helps to soak up the recoil. There's lots of good choices out there such as Model 65's, and 66's from S&W.

As an aside, allow me a rant. What the heck is the matter with folks today and all of the whining about weight? My 65-6 weighs in at around 34 oz's and I carry it comfortably all day. Our pioneers carried big Walker Colts, and SAA Colts often weighing well over 40 oz's! Have we gotten so weak, so flabby that we can't handle anything over 20 ounces?

I think the real problem is that many aren't using a good holster that holds the gun 'high and tight', and they don't have a good gunbelt to put that holster on. Plan on spending about $60 to $80 for a good gunbelt from a company like Galco (and there are several other good companies) and a similar amount for a good holster. My favorite revolver holsters are from simplyrugged.com Plan on paying this amount to carry your new weapon and don't skimp in this area.

Also, for your wife, have her check out the site corneredcat.com as it has a lot of good advice for the woman who carries.

Rant over, and good luck on the gun search!

[jad0110]

As an aside, allow me a rant. What the heck is the matter with folks today and all of the whining about weight? My 65-6 weighs in at around 34 oz's and I carry it comfortably all day. Our pioneers carried big Walker Colts, and SAA Colts often weighing well over 40 oz's! Have we gotten so weak, so flabby that we can't handle anything over 20 ounces?

I think the real problem is that many aren't using a good holster that holds the gun 'high and tight', and they don't have a good gunbelt to put that holster on. Plan on spending about $60 to $80 for a good gunbelt from a company like Galco (and there are several other good companies) and a similar amount for a good holster. My favorite revolver holsters are from simplyrugged.com Plan on paying this amount to carry your new weapon and don't skimp in this area.

I wouldn't call this a rant, it just points out the importance of a good quallity gun belt (thebeltman.com is another great source) and holster.

Right now I am carrying an all steel 5" M1911A1 (7+1) in a Gary Brommeland Max Con V IWB hoster on a beltman 1 3/4" belt. I've got a spare mag on my weak side. Total, the gun + ammo and spare mag weigh nearly 3 lbs 4 oz (yes, I just weighed the combo with my wife's cooking scale... shhh, don't say nothin'!:o). I barely notice the weight at all. Now, if I were using a crappy $8 Wal-Mart belt and a $19.95 holster, it might not be comfortable at all. Good gear makes all the difference in the world, trust me.

That said, for pocket carry, weight does become an issue, IMHO. Anything much over 20 oz loaded will just flail about annoyingly when you move about, so I prefer my S&W 642 for pocket carry (approx 17.1 oz loaded).

[rcmodel]

Given that expansion in all but the softest lead is iffy from a 38,Shreaded rubber bullet trap stuffing is not a good medium to test .38 Spl LSWC-HP bullets for expansion.

Without liquid (blood, water, etc.) to cause the bullet to expand, it won't.

[JImbothefiveth]

I would recommend getting two that have similar grips
If you want something really cheap to practice on, you could get a .22 caliber J-frame, like the S&W 317. .22s are not known for stopping power so this would be a "practice" gun, for use at the range.

[goon]

I am new to this forum so please excuse the noob and/or duplicate question.

My wife and I are looking to purchase hand guns for home protection and for carry and conceal. I have already read a lot about the stopping power and muzzle velocity of the 357. Clearly it is more powerful than a 38. However, I have also read at this site that a quick 2nd shot is more difficult because of the recoil and if you are small (like my wife) the weapon may have to be repositioned in your hand to be fired again.

1. My question is in regards to stopping power. Will the 38 loaded with hollow points still get the job done as well as a 357? (I assume the goal here is if you can't kill them in one shot it is good to knock them down or let them know right away that they have been shot vs. stories I've heard about people being shot with 9mm and not even realizing it because of their adrenaline or Drug rush.)

2. We have decided on the S & W brand, snub, hammerless, lightweight. Any models you could recommend based on your answer to #1?

3. I've seen a .357 magnum go through a car door on youtube. Will it go through my drywall/hardy plank and hit my neighbors house if I miss someone?

Thanks.

1. Yep. A good .38 Special JHP to the heart will stop as effectively as anything else to the heart.

2. I'm partial to Ruger revolvers myself. I think the SP-101 is just about the best gun, EVER! :)

3. Yep. But a .38 Special round probably will too. Anything that has enough power to stop an attacker will also probably shoot through a wall. FWIW, I've shot completely through cars with .22 LR.

Also, it's been my experience that no gun has "stopping power". I've shot things with high-powered rifles and the results are not always impressive. Where the bullet goes is way more important than what size it is or a few hundred more FPS, assuming you have "enough" power to start with.

[rjewell]

I let my ol lady fire my charter arms mag pug .357 with +p .38 specials, and shes a small girl and im ashamed to say, i think she shoots it better than i do!!

[pps]

Shreaded rubber bullet trap stuffing is not a good medium to test .38 Spl LSWC-HP bullets for expansion.

Without liquid (blood, water, etc.) to cause the bullet to expand, it won't.

rc

I've seen the 38 lhp's suffer similar projectile dysfunction fired into wetpack and water filled milk jugs.

[Timthinker]

One idea which may have been mentioned is to rent some .38 revolvers at your local range and test fire them. Now, one problem with this idea is your local range may not have any rental guns in the caliber and model you desire. Still, testing a handgun before you purchase it is a great idea if it is possible. Since both of you are new to handgunning, test firing various calibers will give you a feel for what you do and do not want. I hope this helps.


Timthinker

[foghornl]

If you get one of those Ultra-Lite-Tanium revolvers, load it up with some just short of thermo-nucler loads, and hand it over to the Mrs. to shoot, there will be a loud BLAM!, followed by a dull metallic thunk!when she whomps you upside the head with it.

[Bill B.]

I had to decide what snub to pick for my wife also since she was a bit put off by my 1911. Anyway I went with a all steel S&W M36 Chief .38 special with a 2" barrel. It does soak up the recoil better than the airweights.

[regal]

I find my .38 S&W airweight snubby the easiest to shoot and most accurate small handgun I own. I never understood the claims that they are difficult, S&W snubbies have great ergonomics.

[Willy G.]

A semi lightwieght (15 oz. S&W 442:)) snubby is the way to go. Even for a new shooter, once you've mastered it every other gun will be a breeze. As for a .357 It's nice to have the option of both .38 and .357, you can start off with .38 then .38+p then .357. I have found it the most concealable weapon, you can drop it in your pocket or waistband and it almost disappears. Good luck with whatever you get and don't forget to practice,practice,practice.