Need help on upcoming FAL/G3 purchase


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CSestp
November 10, 2008, 02:31 PM
Hey guys I am looking at buying a .308 rifle soon, and need some help. Every Firearm I buy, I buy to use not resale. I have no value in brand names, if one brand is going to shoot just as stright and last just as long as the next I want the cheaper one. I am not a collector.

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/beta/storeproduct618.aspx
FAL Imbel .308 Battle Rifle $879.00

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/beta/storeproduct458.aspx
Imbel FAL .308 Carbine $939.00

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/beta/storeproduct621.aspx
PTR 91 K Carbine .308 Rifle HK91 G3 Rifle $1,059.00

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/beta/storeproduct475.aspx
Panther LR-308AP4 $1,079.00

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/beta/storeproduct482.aspx
DSA STG58STD Rifle $1,039.00

If there are any recomendations that I missed please put down. Once again looking for best performance/life time/price. NOT RESALE. Thank you all.

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Wolfgang2000
November 10, 2008, 03:27 PM
I bought one of these and have never been sorry. I believe mine is the police carbine model.

http://www.entreprise.com/RiflesSTG58C.htm

CSestp
November 10, 2008, 06:07 PM
Thank you for the reply I don't think in Oklahoma you can have a barrel that short. I'm having trouble finding the laws online, guess I am just going to have to call the DA office.

TexasRifleman
November 10, 2008, 06:09 PM
Thank you for the reply I don't think in Oklahoma you can have a barrel that short.

16" barrel is the minimum for a Title 1 firearm. Oklahoma doesn't have a law requiring longer than that.
The 12" model is gonna be NFA, and cost you the $200 tax stamp. Also allowed in Oklahoma but you dont' really want that on a semi .308.



Once again looking for best performance/life time/price.

Given those 3 as the criteria I'd get the PTR91. Of you can spend more the DSA FALs are awful nice but it's hard to beat the PTR for both the price of the rifle and the price of magazines (3 bucks each the last box I bought).

I believe mine is the police carbine model.

IF it was you would probably know it since you would have had to pay a $200 tax and fill out all the NFA paperwork. That model has a 12 inch barrel and is in the category of "useless stuff to have" unless you bought a suppressor to go with it.

CSestp
November 10, 2008, 06:25 PM
Thank you very very much for the help.

CSestp
November 10, 2008, 06:27 PM
After looking at the prices the flat out standard DSA is cheaper than the PTR. So should I just go with that one?

TexasRifleman
November 10, 2008, 06:30 PM
Keep in mind there are 2 types of rifles from DSA.

The STG series is made from some Austrian surplus parts, the SA58 series is made with all new parts.

It's not a bad thing but it's important to keep in mind so you can do an apples to apples comparison.

Compare the SA58 to the PTR for an "apples to apples" price comparison.

That said, the STG is a perfectly fine rifle, very nice stuff from DSA.

Ash
November 10, 2008, 06:44 PM
I prefer the STG-58 over the SA-58. Gimme new Austrian-made military parts (these are not used parts). So, I do consider it a fair comparison given what you get.

Ash

CSestp
November 10, 2008, 07:01 PM
Alright guys that really was great information. Glad there are good teachers out there.

stubbicatt
November 11, 2008, 08:12 AM
Couple of things:

1) PTR controls heat better than the FAL, the forend of which will burn your hands after a couple of magazines of ammo.

2) The hardening of the receiver on the last two DSA FALs is odd in that the receiver rings like a bell... with a long sustain each time the action cycles, whether manually or in semi automatic.

There are those who prefer the ergonomic fit of the FAL to the PTR, and vice versa. I think ultimately, it is this factor which will make the difference.

rfurtkamp
November 11, 2008, 08:19 AM
PTR controls heat better than the FAL, the forend of which will burn your hands after a couple of magazines of ammo.


Not with the standard non-metal handguards.

Yeah, the STG handguards burn like hell, but so does the 'standard' G3 vs the wide since the trunion isn't covered at all on the standards.

And NFA barrel-length .308 can be fun, but not for a first one.

For full-sized rifle I prefer the FAL, for NFA carbine I vastly prefer the HK pattern, but the PTR doesn't fit that not having the paddle mag release (a huge, huge, huge ergonomic factor) and the heavy barrel makes an already unbalanced weapon stupidly overheavy.

If only PTR would wake up and release normal profile barrels with a paddle mag release upgrade option....

TexasRifleman
November 11, 2008, 09:59 AM
If only PTR would wake up and release normal profile barrels with a paddle mag release upgrade option........

Don't blame PTR for that, that little gem comes thanks to our lovely friends at ATF.

To install the paddle release you have to drill a hole that happens to be the same area as the hole for a full auto forward pushpin.

ATF went so far as to publish some pretty specific stuff about how the hole can be drilled, what size, that it can only be on one side etc.

You can do the modification yourself legally of course, but with the ATF you just never know when they might change their minds or anything else.

For the moment it is allowed only if you immediately weld back over the hole you have to drill to install the mag release.

I can't blame PTR for just avoiding that whole mess. "Real" HK 91's didn't have the paddle either, for the same reason, only G3's had them.

rfurtkamp
November 11, 2008, 11:02 AM
Don't blame PTR for that, that little gem comes thanks to our lovely friends at ATF.


Thing is that this upgrade is stock on most non-PTR guns now. RTDS, IGF, Vector, even SW have paddle releases now. Bill Springfield offers it as a service too.

Having 3 HK-type guns with them, I can't imagine not having them.

It's a literal night and day difference in eliminating one of the major complaints with the ergonomics on the thing.

Basically PTR is years behind in offering the best option for the thing, it was forgivable when they were $600 guns, but they're not any more.

CSestp
November 11, 2008, 11:16 AM
Okay about the only thing useful for someone with my education in firearms in those last 4 post was stubbicatt's post about the heat. I was not asking about paddle release. I was wanting to know which one to go with and then a list of reasons why. TexasRifleMan was the most helpful in this area as he is the only one that actully gave a rifle to buy over another with a reason why.

If you want to have a conversation about paddle release (which I have no damn clue about) please start a thread about it. I will be very interested to learn about paddle release's, just not in a thread I started to talk about the guns in whole.

Thank you again for you attempted help.

TexasRifleman
November 11, 2008, 11:34 AM
I will be very interested to learn about paddle release's, just not in a thread I started to talk about the guns in whole.


Well, that is good information for you too, so don't get too upset that folks are bringing up things you might not have thought about.

Thread drift is inevitable, like growing old and paying taxes :)

Ash was probably right with his assessment of the STG58 from DSA given what you are looking for.

So it's up to you now, STG58 or PTR91 :)

Tough choice, most of us gave up trying to decide and bought both LOL

CSestp
November 11, 2008, 01:18 PM
I understand Texan, but the problem with something I hadn't thought of ie Paddle boats or whatever it was. Is I really have no idea what you are talking about. While I want to figure it out. When a thread drifts as most do and this one did, people talk in assumed knowledge. If you all started a thread about paddle release's, it would be on a start from scratch information sort of deal instead of assumeing that I have any idea on what your talking about.

With that in mind I suppose after this I will be searching the fourm for paddle release. Sorry for the pissy take in my last post it was still early and hadn't had any go-go juice yet.

CSestp
November 11, 2008, 01:33 PM
Also one more thing, a .223 is going to have a longer range with less drop than a .308 correct?

TexasRifleman
November 11, 2008, 01:40 PM
Also one more thing, a .223 is going to have a longer range with less drop than a .308 correct?

This is true but it's not huge. At 500 yards (of course depending on loads) I usually see less than a 4 inch difference between the 2. Inside 300 yards they are almost identical.

Keep in mind what you want that bullet to do when it hits the target at 500 yards, punch holes in paper or do actual damage.

What distances are you expecting to see in your shooting?

rfurtkamp
November 11, 2008, 04:41 PM
out. When a thread drifts as most do and this one did, people talk in assumed knowledge. If you all started a thread about paddle release's, it would be on a start from scratch information sort of deal instead of assumeing that I have any idea on what your talking about.


You asked why one over the other.

The paddle plays a real role in that decision, and PTR doesn't offer it as a stock option. You're looking at a $100-120 upgrade plus 'don't have the rifle now, it's at the smith time' past the point of the rifle to make me consider it.

If you want 'informed' responses to threads, then you'll get information you may not understand. It's the nature of the beast.

I own 3 HK-pattern rifles, and 6 (or is it 7) FALs. I'm well aware of the deficiencies of each, and mentioned my preferences and why.

As far as why the paddle matters, imagine a sticky, generally non-response magazine release stuck in an awkward position - because the primary release was intended to be a paddle similar to an AK's linked into that button

It's the difference between inch and metric mag releases on the FALs by a magnitude of 10x (and those, so nobody complains, the metric release is a tiny lever where the inch release is the width of the magazine and much more readily hit).

CSestp
November 11, 2008, 09:34 PM
Don't worry the boot is already inserted into my mouth. Okay lets simplify matters here for the recruit. It's down to the PTL that is totally new, but with a mag that might end up being kinda jammed in place that might require a knife or something to help trigger the release. A STG51 without the the mag problems, but is a used gun with all new parts, or is it just the insides that are new (barrel would still be old?). Then the SA-58 which is totally from factory new, and no mag jamming.

Do I have my ducks in a row?

Ash
November 11, 2008, 09:43 PM
All, or virtually all, parts on the STG-58 are new, they are surplus but not used. They are military parts, but they are not take-offs.

Ash

rfurtkamp
November 11, 2008, 09:56 PM
PTR won't require tools to manipulate the release but it often will require two hands and removing yourself from good positioning. Speed reloads just will not be feasibly possible, pretty much period, when compared to a FAL.

The STG parts I wouldn't worry about, I've built 20+ FALs for people on unissued STG kits (same parts DSA is using). Most I handled were literally new except for an exterior handling mark - carriers, bolts, gas systems, bores, rear of lower showed *zero* signs of use.

Given the two in fullsize production guns, limiting to those options only, I'd go with the FAL in a heartbeat.

CSestp
November 12, 2008, 12:28 AM
alright rfurt are you talking about the Impel FAL for 860, or the 940?

rfurtkamp
November 12, 2008, 03:25 AM
I'd go with the 860 or the DSA one; in a FAL, I personally prefer the fullsized version versus the carbine.

If you love the platform and can handle one, you might get a carbine later, but if I had to get one I'd get a fullsize gun.

stubbicatt
November 12, 2008, 08:46 AM
Ever wonder if the FAL v. G3 debate isn't becoming like the "Ford v. Chevy" debate? Somehow our egos identify with these rifles?

Last parting shot I'll offer on this topic, is:

1) Go to the gun store and pick up one or more of each, and shoulder them. If the clerk will let you, examine it closely. Thumb the safety on and off. Examine the sights. Heft the rifle for balance. Insert and remove the magazine a couple of times. Which one do you like?

2) I haven't shot any recently domestic manufactured FALs. I did own a pre dealer sample G1 made by FN in Belgium. Beautiful rifle. Was impossible to shoot very long because it got too hot to hold onto. I often wondered if the German Army issued asbestos oven mitts with these rifles.

3) Cleanup with the G3 variant is much quicker and easier. No gas piston to clean up, no cylinder to mess with.

4) No gas settings to worry about with the G3. Works every time, pretty much the same. Some see the adjustable gas setting to be a "feature," and that is as may be, but I think it is one more thing to go wrong.

5) Reach to thumb safety/selector is awkward on both models compared to the AR15 series. Can put a Williams Ambi safety on the G3 variant for about $25 which makes this much easier.

6) Modularity favors the G3, as you can replace stocks and such readily, and have a collapsible stock if for some reason you want one. FAL Para stock hurts worse than the G3 collapsible to shoot for very long, as the sling mount hits you in the upper jaw just below the nose if you shoot right handed. Ow.

7) Right now parts are everywhere for G3 variants, as well as accessories.

8) G3 is much easier to mount a scope to with the factory claw type mounting system. The FAL system is sort of odd, or at least the system that was available at the time I owned the G1 was sort of odd, and had several small screws that had to be snugged down to assure the top cover didn't shift.

All of these comparos will do you no good at all if you don't like the way the rifle fits your frame. So, to assure great joy in your purchase, go try them on for size, and pick the one that works best for YOU. In the end it is how well you shoot the rifle, not how well someone else can shoot your rifle that will matter most.

Good luck!

TexasRifleman
November 12, 2008, 09:04 AM
Ever wonder if the FAL v. G3 debate isn't becoming like the "Ford v. Chevy" debate? Somehow our egos identify with these rifles?

It's interesting for sure.

I have both and frankly couldn't pick between them which is "best". I shoot one and decide it's my favorite, then shoot the other and change my mind.

It's a good position for a buyer to be in because they can't really go wrong either way but I do agree with your list of pluses for the HK.

Eventually you have to get both though, just accept it :)

rfurtkamp
November 12, 2008, 11:58 AM
Was impossible to shoot very long because it got too hot to hold onto. I often wondered if the German Army issued asbestos oven mitts with these rifles.


With the bipod/heat sink removed, and better options than the metal cook your hand grill installed (the basic fiberglass/composite frontends work wonders), I've found that the FAL cooks a little less than the G3.


G3 is much easier to mount a scope to with the factory claw type mounting system. The FAL system is sort of odd, or at least the system that was available at the time I owned the G1 was sort of odd, and had several small screws that had to be snugged down to assure the top cover didn't shift.


Newer DSA mounts still have the screws but they're a hell of a lot more solid than the old $20 FAC ones. That and once they're on you just clean around them, cleaning ends up about on par with the 91.

Then again, I hate cleaning the 91 more - carbon buildup and whatnot gets stupid. Of course, in shooting both with a can, they both are exercises in cleaning ugliness.

Claw mount gives limited scope height options, but the B&T rail mounts are actually workable (and survived the 51, which I can't say about the knockoffs where the rear scope base locking point chewed through the aluminum).

Both guns are stupidly abusive on scopes IME, I used either to test new mid-priced non-Aimpoint red dots that they wanted to sell in the store here. Very, very few lasted 100 rounds.


Works every time, pretty much the same. Some see the adjustable gas setting to be a "feature," and that is as may be, but I think it is one more thing to go wrong.


These days it's a tossup. In the era of $20 battlepacks, it was cheaper to adjust the gas than buy the good HK recoil buffer to get the 91s down to where the FAL is when adjusted right.

That and on the ones I've built, the adjustments have been extremely minor over what they came equipped on, at least on the unissued STG kits.

I've gone more for the HK pattern guns in recent years, partly because I can't escape viewing the FAL from the lens of what they used to cost to build vs what they sell for now, that and there's only so many FALs a growing boy needs.

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