Cops Raid Wrong Home, Taser Man


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September 17, 2003, 12:27 PM
The link (http://www.local6.com/news/2489866/detail.html) Cops Raid Wrong Home, Taser Man
Sheriff's Deputies Break Down Wrong Door

POSTED: 5:33 a.m. EDT September 17, 2003
UPDATED: 9:09 a.m. EDT September 17, 2003

OMAK, Wash. -- Okanogan County sheriff's deputies seeking a person on outstanding warrants broke down the door to the wrong home and then jolted a man with a Taser in front of his wife and child.

Sheriff Frank Rogers says the bottom line is officers messed up.

No one was seriously injured in the 4:50 a.m. Thursday incident.

Rogers says he delayed releasing information on the botched search until Monday so he could investigate the matter.

The heavily armed officers apparently burst into the wrong trailer at the Homestead Trailer Park in Omak.

The man they were seeking, 30-year-old Joseph M. Parisien, heard the ruckus and tried to escape from another trailer.

He was arrested without incident

Heh, at least is was a Taser. Hurts like hell but, he lived through it.

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Keith
September 17, 2003, 12:42 PM
"Outstanding warrants"...?

I'd like to know what the actual target of this raid was guilty of.

Keith

Tamara
September 17, 2003, 12:43 PM
Sheriff Frank Rogers says the bottom line is officers messed up.

Looks like we have an early leader in the current "Understatement Of The Week" contest. ;)

TallPine
September 17, 2003, 12:54 PM
I'd like to know what the actual target of this raid was guilty of.
Unpaid parking tickets, perhaps ...?

Gotta crack down on that stuff, you know.

Coronach
September 17, 2003, 01:03 PM
I'd like to know what the actual target of this raid was guilty of.Seeing as how it is an arrest warrant, I'm going to go with "nothing, yet."

He is, however, being charged with something. Judging by the fact that warrant service was conducted at 0-dark-30 and featured our favorite hobgoblin, the SWAT team, I'm guessing that it is either for something violent, or there was indication that he would resist.

I hope, for the sake of all of our preconceived notions, that this was a no-knock warrant and it was a drug charge. ;)

Mike

Tamara
September 17, 2003, 01:05 PM
Oh, I'm just betting that "messed up" is not the exact nor entire phrase that the good sheriff used around the cop shop, that's all. I'll bet his actual description used a lot more four-letter words and included phrases like "bloodsucking lawyers", "*&%#$@ liability!" and "how would you like to be demoted to dog catcher?" ;)

tiberius
September 17, 2003, 01:11 PM
Mistakes are always going to be made, procedures need to be looked at. At least no one was killed.

However, these “No-knock” entries are completely stupid. Is it really worth risking lives to prevent someone from flushing drugs down the toilet? I think not. If someone were to break down my door by mistake, I’m pretty sure that at least one of us would end up dead.

lee n. field
September 17, 2003, 01:19 PM
It seems you hear about this kind of stuff about once a month. That's once a month for the times when they go the the wrong house and somebody gets _killed_ or close to it, by mistake. Heck, a little old lady in my Sunday School class had the local drug ninjas show up at her house -- wrong address.

These guys need to get reined in. A couple officers, with a warrant, knocking on the door during business hours or around supper time. What's wrong with that.

tyme
September 17, 2003, 01:21 PM
http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20030917/northwest/101985.shtml

SKI MASKS?!?! CAMO?!?! :barf:
(no-knock ninja raid a result of drug charges - sounds like the "suspect in an assault case" is just thrown in there to make the whole thing sound better. "Suspect" != arrest warrant)

Deputies raid wrong home, stun wrong man

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
OMAK -- Sheriff's deputies seeking a person on outstanding warrants broke down the door to the wrong home and then jolted a man with a Taser in front of his wife and child.

"The bottom line is, we screwed up," Okanogan County Sheriff Frank Rogers said.

No one was seriously hurt in the 4:50 a.m. Thursday incident, authorities and residents said Monday.

Rogers said he delayed releasing information on the botched search until Monday so he could investigate the matter.

The nine or 10 officers, most from the Okanogan County Sheriff's Office, were serving a "no-knock" warrant because they believed the man they were after was armed, said sheriff's Deputy Ernie Gahimer, who participated in the raid.

The heavily armed officers, all wearing ski masks and camouflage clothing, used a battering ram to smash open the door to the trailer home, Gahimer said. With rifles and handguns drawn, they rushed inside.

They thought they were at space 7 at the Homestead Trailer Park, the residence of Joseph M. Parisien, 30. He was wanted on two warrants and is a suspect in a second-degree assault, Gahimer said.

Instead, they entered the trailer at space 9, occupied by four sleeping people: brothers Jose and Jesus Sanabria, Jesus Sanabria's wife, Adriana, and their 2-year-old child, Luis.

Gahimer said both men resisted law enforcement officers until they were handcuffed face down on their beds. Officers used a Taser gun to subdue one of them.

Gahimer said he did not know which man was jolted by the Taser. A relative of the men said Monday it was Jesus Sanabria.

"I feel bad for the people," the sheriff said. "We'll just make amends as best we can."

The sheriff's office asked the owners of the trailer park to replace the broken door as soon as possible and send the bill to the sheriff, he said.

Raeann Sanabria, who is married to Jose, said the family is still waiting for a new door, plus replacements for two interior bedroom doors that were broken.

"How can they get the wrong address? It doesn't make me like police very much," she said.

While the deputies were in the wrong home, Parisien, the original target, ran out of another trailer and was arrested without incident, Gahimer said.

Parisien was wanted on a Colville Tribal warrant for failure to appear and, according to a Spokane County Superior Court clerk, for allegedly violating conditions for his release pending sentencing on drug charges.

Gahimer said police had the right trailer number on an Okanogan County search warrant. But a map provided by owners of the trailer park indicated space 7 was the fourth trailer on the left as counted when entering the park.

Gahimer said deputies planning the raid did not count the first trailer because it was a double wide and faced another street.

The sheriff's office is conducting an investigation to determine whether any officers should be disciplined, he said.

Chipperman
September 17, 2003, 01:23 PM
The thing that frosts me about these stories is that the Cops usually act like it's the fault of the person they attack. :fire:

El Tejon
September 17, 2003, 01:33 PM
"When we warn you for illegal U-turns around here, we really WARN you.":D

From what I see, confusion is rampant in the criminal justice profession ("where's that file?", "what do you mean he has ANOTHER probation violation?", "I have a 3 o'clock?"), but when guns and the possibility of additional holes are involved, one should be extra careful.

Mike, I think what scares the living behayzeus out of THR is the notion that the cops could get our addresses mixed up.:eek: No winners there!

Coronach
September 17, 2003, 01:36 PM
Ah. It was an FTA warrant (fail to appear), and he was a suspect in a second degree assault (not sure what that means down yonder way, but likely it is felony assault). Depending on how strong the evidence was that he was armed and would resist, I can see a judge signing a no-knock on that. Even if it wasn't issued as a no-knock, the arrest team would still be going through the door if it wasn't opened. This is what I meant earlier...its not like every time a door gets kicked it is out of a no-knock (though this one was).

Which is why it is utterly key that you have the, uh, correct freakin' address. :rolleyes:

At least the Sheriff sounds like a stand-up guy. We screwed up. Landlord, fix their door ASAP and send the bill to us. We're investigating who is gonna get disciplined (yeah, thats what that should read as...which deputy is gonna end up eating this one, and rightly so).

I'm guessing that there was a language barrier, too...which certainly did not help them sort things out while all the excitement was going on.

Mike

Keith
September 17, 2003, 01:37 PM
The heavily armed officers, all wearing ski masks and camouflage clothing....

Gee, and the occupants resisted...?

There is no doubt in my mind that if faced with a similar situation, I'd start shooting and keep shooting until every one of them (or myself) was dead.

It's just insane! Even in a case where a no-knock warrant is justified, it makes no sense for these cops to come in masked and without uniforms. A guy in a cop uniform kicks down my door, and I'll probably lay down spread-eagled guessing that they really ARE cops. A masked man in camo who kicks down my door will greeted with gunfire.

Are they actually TRYING to get the occupants to shoot at them? This technique sounds like they are trying to set up a gun fight so they can execute the offender. It doesn't sound like anything you'd want to do to effect an arrest.

Keith

Coronach
September 17, 2003, 01:46 PM
Mike, I think what scares the living behayzeus out of THR is the notion that the cops could get our addresses mixed up. No winners there!Yeah, El T. I know.

That scares the buhjeezus out of us too, because:

1. Some day we could end up sailing through the wrong door. NOTHING good comes of that. We have to take the info given to us and run with it. "He lives here, right?" I mean, how hard is that?

**note** that doesn't apply in this case, I know. But in others it has.

**note2** I am not on a tactical team, and don't think I will be in the near future. So, no door kicking for Coro.

2. We own houses, too. I shudder to think what would happen if a tactical team came pouring into my house at 4:30 AM. :eek:

Mike

TallPine
September 17, 2003, 01:49 PM
I just don't get it ....

Whatever happened to discrete survellaince and nailing the guy when he goes out to get more beer?

Coronach
September 17, 2003, 01:53 PM
Too many chases and public shootouts. ASSUMING you were correct in needing to do a tactical entry, you are placing the public at a lot more risk doing it that way.

Mike

TallPine
September 17, 2003, 02:12 PM
Well, I don't think you are ever correct in doing a "tactical entry", unless you have innocent lives in danger (hostages) or some sort of standoff already exists for some other reason.

One of these days, a bunch of officers, and one or more residents, are going to die in a wrong house raid.

Ol' Badger
September 17, 2003, 02:24 PM
Is there anything on the uniforms that say "POLICE" on it? But then the BGs can get the same stuff. I'd run myself, but then I dont have a Wife and kid to think about.

Baba Louie
September 17, 2003, 02:32 PM
Do we need some large format, easily read in the dark Poster for the front door stating "Dear Officers of the Law... Please make certain of proper address on warrant prior to busting down this door and shooting occupants. We'd hate for you to "simply mess up"... signature affixed

Adios

Ex-Doc
September 17, 2003, 02:49 PM
"Gahimer said he did not know which man was jolted by the Taser. A relative of the men said Monday it was Jesus Sanabria."

They shot Jesus, what's this world coming to?!

Skunkabilly
September 17, 2003, 02:51 PM
I'm surprised this hasn't happened in my city yet. There's Stanford court apartment complexes. Then there's Dartmouth court on Stanford street and so is Princeton Court. I lived in Harvard court which is on Berkeley street, Berkeley Court apt complexes are on either Berkeley or Cornell St depending on whether the numbers were odd or even. Come to think of it, I think the odd-numbered half of Harvard Court was on Cornell street :o

Are POLICE velcro badges and hats available to anyone? Seems like BGs can just buy those things and make their own raid jackets.

Coronach
September 17, 2003, 03:23 PM
Well, I don't think you are ever correct in doing a "tactical entry", unless you have innocent lives in danger (hostages) or some sort of standoff already exists for some other reason.Well, in that we'll disagree. But its a diagreement I've had before here. ;) And, for the record, I held that same opinion before I wore a badge.

However, I think such endevours should be limited, and uh...you gotta make sure you have the right doublewide there, Deputy. :uhoh: Otherwise someone could get shot in a tragic misunderstanding. :(

Mike

NewShooter78
September 17, 2003, 03:23 PM
Are POLICE velcro badges and hats available to anyone? Seems like BGs can just buy those things and make their own raid jackets.

I know I can get them without much problem. It just dependes on where you are and where you get them from.

buzz_knox
September 17, 2003, 03:29 PM
These situations scare the crap out of me because I have had a cop try to serve a warrant at the wrong residence, namely mine. The cop got the address wrong but, thankfully, rather than kicking in the door, he knocked.

Keith
September 17, 2003, 03:33 PM
Just a few days ago I read an article in the Anchorage Daily News about some armed men raiding a "grow house" disguised as a "no-knock" raid.

The BG's busted in and held a family at gun point and demanded they hand over drugs. The family had just moved in a few weeks previously, and the landlord acknowledged that he had ejected the previous tenant because he had converted the basement into a commercial marijuana growing operation.

BG's get wrong addresses also...

I wish I had saved the article, but it's probably been archived by now. This points out the fact you can NOT assume that somebody busting into your house is a cop. I may die, but I'm going to die shooting - and I'll be taking head shots...

Keith

DorGunR
September 17, 2003, 03:38 PM
coronach posted:
2. We own houses, too. I shudder to think what would happen if a tactical team came pouring into my house at 4:30 AM.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah........that scares the crap outta me too.......cause I'm afraid I'm gonna be pumping lead.:uhoh:

Hello coronach long time no see....hope you have been well my friend.:)

Keith
September 17, 2003, 03:41 PM
http://adn.com/alaska/story/3879911p-3903136c.html

Burglars hold three children at gunpoint
INVASION: Suspects were apparently seeking marijuana, troopers say.

By S.J. KOMARNITSKY
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: September 9, 2003)
WASILLA -- Two young men apparently looking for a marijuana grow broke into a Wasilla-area home this weekend and held three children at gunpoint before being chased off by the children's father, Alaska State Troopers said.

The family, which is renting the home off Wasilla-Fishhook Road, was shaken up but unharmed during the Saturday morning break-in, trooper Dave Herrell said. The home contained no marijuana plants, but the father, Johnnie Wallace, said the landlord told him a previous tenant was kicked out for growing dope.

The children held at gunpoint included a 14-year-old girl, her 5-year-old brother and their 11/2-year-old sister.

Wallace said in a telephone interview that he and his wife, Charlene, were sleeping when two men broke in about 11 a.m. The couple were asleep because they had spent the early-morning hours delivering newspapers, he said.

The children were downstairs watching cartoons. A man, who appeared to be in his late teens or possibly 20, came to the door asking for someone who doesn't live there, Wallace said.

The 14-year-old girl told him he had the wrong house, and he left. But about 20 minutes later, he and another man about the same age returned. This time, when the girl answered the door, the two pushed their way in.

One suspect pointed a handgun at the girl and told her to lie on the floor and be quiet, Herrell said. Her siblings started crying, and the girl asked if they could sit next to her. The suspect allowed the three to sit together, the trooper said.

Meanwhile, the other suspect ran down to the basement, where he pulled insulation from around a window and rummaged around apparently looking for a secret room, Herrell said. He then came back upstairs and demanded to know "Where's the weed?" the trooper said.

About that time, Wallace heard his son crying. He said he thought maybe the boy had fallen. As he came out of his room, he saw one man coming up the stairs and the other standing near the door, he said.

"I said, 'What's going on here?' " he said.

The two then ran out the door.

Wallace said his landlord told him after the break-in that he had kicked out a former tenant for growing marijuana in the house. Herrell, the trooper, knew of no arrests made at the house but said the landlord had told him a previous tenant had run up outrageously high electric bills.

"I don't think it had anything to do with having 20 microwave ovens or anything like that," Herrell said.

The landlord could not immediately be reached for comment Monday.

The family has been renting the house for a month, Wallace said, adding that he's made an offer to buy another house and expects to close next month. Wallace said the move can't come soon enough.

Coronach
September 17, 2003, 03:46 PM
These situations scare the crap out of me because I have had a cop try to serve a warrant at the wrong residence, namely mine. The cop got the address wrong but, thankfully, rather than kicking in the door, he knocked.This is how the vast majority of warrants are served. If you deviate from this, you simply must be correct about the address, the occupants, the scenario, everything.

Mike

Carlos Cabeza
September 17, 2003, 03:48 PM
You know, I just can't seem to sleep at that hour anymore. I am wide awake at 3:00am every morning. At least the man wasn't shot 49 times.

TallPine
September 17, 2003, 03:58 PM
I just don't remember hearing about these no-knock raids thirty or forty years ago.

Has the world really changed that much that we need them now and didn't need them then?

( I respect your point of view, Mike - I just don't understand it yet )

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
September 17, 2003, 04:39 PM
I just don't get it .... Whatever happened to discrete survellaince and nailing the guy when he goes out to get more beer?

2 or 3 officers in a couple of cars who swoop in on the subject while stepping into the Quickee Mart doesn't make the papers as dramatically as "Swat Team Takes Down Wanted Fugitive" and makes it harder to justify the budget expenditures for all that new SWAT gear to replace last year's new SWAT gear.

Regards,
Rabbit.

seeker_two
September 17, 2003, 05:10 PM
The nine or 10 officers, most from the Okanogan County Sheriff's Office, were serving a "no-knock" warrant because they believed the man they were after was armed , said sheriff's Deputy Ernie Gahimer, who participated in the raid.

Heck, that's everyone in my entire COUNTY!!!

Kudos to Okanogan County Sheriff Frank Rogers for admitting the error & trying to make it right.

If only ALL LEO'S were so upstanding...:rolleyes:

(...and I'm glad no one was killed or severely injured---on BOTH sides!:D )

moa
September 17, 2003, 06:55 PM
Brings to mind an no knock raid in Baltimore last year. The guy they were looking for got off six apparently unaimed shots with a .45. Four officers wounded for five times.

Shooter was not charged, much to the anger of the police Chief. The police apparently failed to follow procedure.

It still amazes me about the necessity of many of these no knock raids. If bail bondsmen and bounty hunters can make arrests without the heroics and casualities, then why can't law enforcement do the same? And the bail bondsmen do not need a search warrant to enter the premises.

I remember reading someplace here on the Board, that the last statistics for New York City, was that they had over 13,000 no knock raids, and about 10% were at the wrong address. Seems kind of high, but very startling.

Doctor Wu
September 17, 2003, 07:22 PM
I too am pleased that all they did was Taser him.

First thing to do to help prevent this from happening to you.
Post your house numbers in six inch or taller, glow in the dark numbers and keep it lighted so these geniuses can see the address on your house. :p

Next, beef up your entry ways.
Aint nobody coming through my front door without alot of racket and multiple attempts. Avon rounds will fail, pry bars will fail, only a chain with a grapple hooked to a moving vehicle or a good cable winch will open the doors to my humble abode. :D

I know the difficulty the cops have with my door set up, cause I have been there watching the SWAT guys try to breech one.
I was laughing so hard I fell out of my patrol car.
SWAT guys hate it when us mere mortals in patrol laugh at them. :neener:
It angers them even more when you yell, "Why don't you call him and have him open the door?" :neener:

FWIW, I feel SWAT teams are greatly overused.

Doctor Wu
September 17, 2003, 08:06 PM
From Tallpine:

I just don't remember hearing about these no-knock raids thirty or forty years ago.
Has the world really changed that much that we need them now and didn't need them then?


Tallpine,
I won't pretend to answer for Mike, but here is my take on it.

I believe things are a little bit more dangerous, but my dept uses SWAT on all the "high risk" warrants out of pure liability.
Defense lawyers have whined that SWAT was only used on their client because their client is _______.
If an officer gets killed serving a "high risk" warrant, then the spouse and/or family of the deceased can sue for negligence, because their family member was placed in harms way, instead of using the unit that is specially trained for such deployments.
There are other liability driven reasons for my depts use of SWAT, sadly they all were derived from abuse of the courts by lawyers representing their clients.

So instead of each situation being reviewed and then a decision is made as to use SWAT or not, a blanket rule has been made that we "Shall" use SWAT.

Which works out fine, as long as they go to the correct address. ;)

Moparmike
September 17, 2003, 08:07 PM
And how is your humble abode secured? This might come in handy for the rest of us whom wish to beef up the outer perimeter of our domicile.

pax
September 17, 2003, 08:34 PM
"The bottom line is, we screwed up," Okanogan County Sheriff Frank Rogers said.
What a refreshing quote!

He didn't say "mistakes were made." He said "We screwed up." He didn't pass the buck to someone else further up or down the line. He acknowledged on behalf of his department that the department was at fault.

Kudos to Sheriff Rogers -- and I'm going to write to both his department and their local paper and say so. Such an honest statement is rare and commendable.

No one was seriously hurt in the 4:50 a.m. Thursday incident, authorities and residents said Monday.
Not only did they screw up, they lucked out.

The heavily armed officers, all wearing ski masks and camouflage clothing, ....
Hopefully with the "POLICE" logo on them somewhere.

Not that that should stop any honest citizen from protecting his domicile from what are obviously thugs. Any honest citizen knows there's no reason for police to be breaking into his house at 4 in the blessed a.m. Therefore, if the house is getting broken into, bad guys are doing it and should be dealt with as such. If you are a LEO and this line of reasoning bothers you, it means that you know, deep in your heart, that such mistaken raids are far too common.

"I feel bad for the people," the sheriff said. "We'll just make amends as best we can."

The sheriff's office asked the owners of the trailer park to replace the broken door as soon as possible and send the bill to the sheriff, he said.
I tell you, leadership like this is rare. "Deny, deny, deny" is usually the ploy of the day. (Heh, up in ... er, dunno the name of the town but in the Olympia area, there's a widow lady whose house had a couple walls knocked out by the boys in blue in a similar incident earlier this year. Guess who hasn't repaired the damage for her?)

Raeann Sanabria, who is married to Jose, said the family is still waiting for a new door, plus replacements for two interior bedroom doors that were broken.
"Still waiting" -- journalist might be a little unfair to phrase it like that. Been less than a week. You can pick a door up at Home Depot off the floor, but if you order a door to match the old one, it'll take a couple weeks.

"How can they get the wrong address? It doesn't make me like police very much," she said.
Hey, all you boys in blue: no-knock raids make your jobs more dangerous. Your safety depends upon the willing cooperation of ordinary citizens. Every single one of these incidents makes more enemies for you out on the street. You think you feel beleaguered now? The more these incidents take place, the more enemies you've got.

While the deputies were in the wrong home, Parisien, the original target, ran out of another trailer and was arrested without incident, Gahimer said.
Proving yet again that most criminals are D-U-M-B.

Btw, the 'arrested without incident' doesn't speak well for the necessity of this particular no-knock, does it.

Parisien was wanted on a Colville Tribal warrant for failure to appear and, according to a Spokane County Superior Court clerk, for allegedly violating conditions for his release pending sentencing on drug charges.
Hmmm, so which was it? Second degree assault? Or breaking parole rules on drug charges? Both?

The sheriff's office is conducting an investigation to determine whether any officers should be disciplined, he said.
Someone should. It's just a question of who.

Oh, and the no-knock policy should be revamped so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again. No-knocks meet certain legitimate LEO needs in some very illegitimate ways. The policy should be revised so that a no-knock is never performed if there are any alternatives to doing a no-knock.

pax

A policeman's job is only easy in a police state. -- Orson Welles

TallPine
September 17, 2003, 08:43 PM
Which works out fine, as long as they go to the correct address.

Agreed, but ...

how do you (I mean LE agencies) determine a "high risk" arrest?

If the net gets cast wide enough, then you risk including someone who may have honestly forgotten about a traffic ticket or something.

Most of us here on THR would not expect to be SWATed in our homes because we haven't done anything wrong - as far as we know, anyway - and would assume that the SWAT was NOT and respond accordingly.

Bad situation for both sides.

I always thought most fugitives got themselves caught by speeding or something ...?

But I am beginning to think the real problem is a criminal (in)justice system that is:
a) persecuting people for substance use, and
b) letting violent criminals back out on the streets all too soon again and again.

The problem with "catch and release" is that the catching can get so dangerous.

TheeBadOne
September 17, 2003, 08:48 PM
In my neck of the woods 2nd Degree Assault is Assault with a deadly weapon (gun).

FWIW

standingbear
September 17, 2003, 08:52 PM
1 more way to insure they dont get the wrong place- hanging strings of tin cans in the doorway and draping em across the floor.too bad the occupants hadnt thought of that one,im sure the combined noise would have awakened the people in the next town as well.definatly a sound to be rukus with.:D :D-in all seriousness though..charging through the door dressed in camies and wearing ski masks aint gonna make many people i know submissive.

Standing Wolf
September 17, 2003, 08:54 PM
Yeah, but we're not a police state.

Doctor Wu
September 17, 2003, 08:56 PM
And how is your humble abode secured? This might come in handy for the rest of us whom wish to beef up the outer perimeter of our domicile.



Oh yah, forgot to mention that.
The outer doors on my abode, were made by a buddy on my dept, they are wrought iron.
They are not the flimsy "security doors" that are sold commercially, it is very heavy metal welded completely, not just touched by the welder to keep it from falling apart, with heavy duty hinges also.

The frame is heavily anchored at several points, especially around the lock mechanism. Which often flex on cheaper doors when a simple pry bar is used on them, popping them open with minimal effort.
The locks are the pricier ones made of stainless steel, rather than the brass and aluminum that most "deadbolt" locks are made from. They don't fall apart from contact with breaching loads, like the cheaper locks do.
The outer door opens outward, so it can't be forced in, it has to be forced open.

The inner doors are next.
They are simple metal doors in metal door frames, with the same locks as above.
I see people with expensive doors and deadbolts, that are easily defeated because the door frame is thin pine and shatters with minimal effort.

I give this info out all the time to burglary victims and those concerned about home invasions, nothing fancy, just better quality components and a little extra effort to make your home safer from anyone wishing to force their way in.

Doctor Wu
September 17, 2003, 09:08 PM
Tallpine,
My dept only does "home visits" to serve felony warrants for drug and violent crime offenses. Fraud and property crimes get pretty much a free ride from "home visits" around here.
Traffic warrants are rarely served, even when the person is encountered on the street.
Misd warrants are served a little more frequently, but honestly we don't serve all that many unless they are DV, DUI or child related. We just don't have the manpower to serve low end warrants.

You are very correct in the fact that what is "high risk" can change without notice to those effected. Leaving that moniker up to the judgement of the incident commander. (shudder)
I don't like blanket policies, they lead to people being Lemmings and not thinking for themselves, but then again that may be just what they want from such policies. I don't know for sure yet.

In a large city area, it is easy to go undetected in the masses with any kind of warrant, last time I looked we had over 30,000 misd warrants outstanding, not sure how many people since many people have multiple warrants, but that's alot of warrants for a city of 500,000+.
In a smaller area where there are few people with outstanding warrants, the cops there go after many more of them.
How they do that is based upon their policies, whether good or bad policies, I don't know.

I too watch the happenings in le with a jaundiced eye.
I also agree about the worthless WoD and letting violent criminals back out at the drop of a hat.

C.R.Sam
September 17, 2003, 09:13 PM
If bail bondsmen and bounty hunters can make arrests without the heroics and casualities, then why can't law enforcement do the same? And the bail bondsmen do not need a search warrant to enter the premises. Bounty hunters blow it too, on occaision. Couple years ago there was a high profile wrong addy bounty intrusion that turned into a fatal gunfight in Phoenix.

No knock has a place.

No knock idea scares me.
But, being deaf, knock n smash scares me equally.

Sam

Fed168
September 17, 2003, 09:31 PM
Tallpine, a couple things are looked at prior to determining if the warrant service is high risk. The nature of the charge and the suspect's history are the two big ones.

SkunkApe
September 17, 2003, 09:31 PM
Seems to me the authorities should:

1) Conduct an investigation and find out who was responsible.

2) Allow the victim to Taser the police officers responsible.

3) Allow the victim ten minutes in the responsible person's house with a sledgehammer.

That oughta learn 'em.

GSMD Fan
September 17, 2003, 10:42 PM
This is a tough thread. No winners in this one.

First, if my guys go through your door and you start shooting you are in a world of hurt. It is three in the morning, you just wake up, and you are shooting it out with 5-10 guys with MP5/M4/Benelli and level III body armor. They have sure fire lights on the weapon foregrip, EOtech sights, and practice doing this. Obviously, the home owner is clearly outgunned. Very few rolling out of bed will defeat them.

Would a law abiding homeowner expect the guys breaking in the door to be police? Heck no, why would he, he has not broken any law. So the homeowner feels the need to defend himself and family.

Say the homeowner is killed or injured. Besides the obvious grief of the family think how the officer feels.

That is why using SWAT/SRT require a great deal of recon and planning.

For all the dynamic entries used it seems the vast majority (and I include NYCs 90% rate listed above) are at the correct address.


Not making excuses, but LE is not easy today. It is dangerous. I know, no one made anyone do it, but the guy who does it wants to go home to his family.

All concerned should thank God no one was killed. The Sheriff admitted the mistake and will do what he must to make sure it does not happen again.

Just saying no one wins in this scenario. I do not think LE does this to make up for not playing enough paintball as a kid. I think it is a sign of the times.

Oh and by the way, all our gear is not Rambo syndrome, we have a counter terrorist role on a major military installation.

Chipperman
September 17, 2003, 11:01 PM
"Are POLICE velcro badges and hats available to anyone? Seems like BGs can just buy those things and make their own raid jackets."


Well theoretically they could, but they don't because impersonating a Police Officer is illegal.
:rolleyes:

seeker_two
September 17, 2003, 11:23 PM
First, if my guys go through your door and you start shooting you are in a world of hurt. It is three in the morning, you just wake up, and you are shooting it out with 5-10 guys with MP5/M4/Benelli and level III body armor. They have sure fire lights on the weapon foregrip, EOtech sights, and practice doing this. Obviously, the home owner is clearly outgunned. Very few rolling out of bed will defeat them.

How long will it be before we all have Tokarevs & CZ-52's as "nightstand guns" for this sort of thing?...:scrutiny:

The odds are on the side of the LEO's in this case, but Mr. Murphy often screws things up at the most inopportune times---and Lady Luck is a fickle mistress...:uhoh:

JohnKSa
September 18, 2003, 12:00 AM
Bounty hunters blow it too, on occaision. Couple years ago there was a high profile wrong addy bounty intrusion that turned into a fatal gunfight in Phoenix.
I'm not arguing that bounty hunters are infallible, but the incident above did not involve bounty hunters.

It was a home invasion that went badly--several of the invaders were wounded slightly (wearing body armor) and at least two of the residents were killed.

When the police got there, the invaders claimed to be bounty hunters which was how the story was initially reported. Those claims did not hold up to investigation and follow up stories published the truth--that they were simply creative criminals.
First, if my guys go through your door and you start shooting you are in a world of hurt. It is three in the morning, you just wake up, and you are shooting it out with 5-10 guys with MP5/M4/Benelli and level III body armor. They have sure fire lights on the weapon foregrip, EOtech sights, and practice doing this. Obviously, the home owner is clearly outgunned. Very few rolling out of bed will defeat them.
Right now, the guys kicking in the doors, are willing to do it because they feel invulnerable. If you don't believe it just read the post that I pulled the quote from. Why should he worry? If there's a screwup, someone has to apologize publicly and someone gets fired for giving the wrong address. In most screwup scenarios none of the actual entry team is going to take any heat at all. Heck, I'd kick down doors just for the FUN of it if I had that kind of immunity. Getting paid for it too would be gravy.

It's very simple. As long as the homeowners are the ones being shot and tasered and the cops are the ones saying "we screwed up" this is going to go on.

When the cops start getting shot and the homeowner gives the news conference then there will be a change.

I have no choice but to resist. I can't assume that someone busting down my door in the middle of the night is doing it "legally". If I give up, I run the risk of getting to watch my family tortured. If I resist, I MIGHT win, and even if I don't, being killed isn't the worst thing that can happen to me--not by a long shot.

If someone breaks into my house at night, I will get at least one of them. I've thought it out carefully, and there's no question in my mind that someone besides me will die. Body armor is becoming common enough in the criminal element that I feel it is reasonable to formulate a strategy that circumvents it. That is exactly what I have done. There are very simple and effective and legal solutions available to anyone.

IF the home invaders turn out to be LE, it will be VERY bad. There will be NO CHANCE of making any kind of trumped up charges stick because various agencies of the government have frequently and repeatedly certified me to be squeaky clean. It will be clear that a screwup of major proportions has resulted in the death of an LEO and (most likely) of an upstanding and law-abiding citizen who was just doing his best to protect his family.

There will be no chance of making my firearms and ammunition sound like an arsenal in order to paint me as some sort of weapons nut because:

1. Everything I have is absolutely and unquestionably legal.
2. I am publicly involved in firearms training type activities (certified instructor) which warrant my possessing firearms and ammunition.

AND, last but not least, my wife works for a law firm and has many friends in the legal profession.

So, anybody who plans on kicking in doors (be they criminals OR LEOs). From now on, while you head toward the door, stop for a half a second just before you get to the door--and think these thoughts: "The occupants may have a plan just like that guy on the internet--this MIGHT even be his house!"

Doctor Wu
September 18, 2003, 12:10 AM
How long will it be before we all have Tokarevs & CZ-52's as "nightstand guns" for this sort of thing?...



Hmmmmmmm, I think I just found my justification to buy that CZ-52 and those sabot loads I was reading about.
In case they breach my perimeter defenses, yah that's it. ;)

jimpeel
September 18, 2003, 12:36 AM
... used a battering ram to smash open the door to the trailer home, Gahimer said. Trailer doors open OUTWARD so it must have taken them a while to get that sucker down. They're damned lucky there wasn't a wall of lead coming through it.

Instead, they entered the trailer at space 9, occupied by four sleeping people: brothers Jose and Jesus Sanabria, Jesus Sanabria's wife, Adriana, and their 2-year-old child, Luis.It is not beyond the realm of posi/probability that these people might not speak enough English to understand what was happening to them. In this case, it sounds like they did speak English but weren't very happy with the camo-clad clowns standing in their broken home.

Ex-Doc

LMAO! :D

They shot Jesus, what's this world coming to?!That could be a line right out of South Park except it lacks "The b-----ds". :D

Quartus
September 18, 2003, 12:57 AM
When the police got there, the invaders claimed to be bounty hunters which was how the story was initially reported. Those claims did not hold up to investigation and follow up stories published the truth--that they were simply creative criminals.



:what:
They were CONGRESSMEN?!?!?!?????





:D

standingbear
September 18, 2003, 09:06 PM
so who gets to pay for the familys counseling after being tramatized by this.its a bad thing that these things happen and it seems to be a trend to bust down the door,throw the occupants to the floor and taser them if they resist until things get sorted out.didnt they know what the suspect looked like or did they just "go for broke" sorry..no sympathy for these screw ups.

justashooter
September 18, 2003, 09:42 PM
[crude comment deleted by moderator]

the incident in baltimore involved a group of ninja suited and ski masked cops trying to bust some drug dealers in a guy's store. store owner sees the gangsters (police without any identification and in their tough guy outfits) coming in with guns drawn and lays out 4 of them. there is a big coverup in which it is stated that the cops were in ninja, then uniform, then ninja with ident, then nothing else heard. no charges filed on the store owner.

the kick is that the [crude comment deleted by moderator] sting buyer decides she has to be in on the bust, and because she's some big time undercover, has to wear a mask. why not just stay home? what about all the other crown vic cowboys? why couldn't they wear uniforms and no ski masks. because it makes them feel like men to terrorise other people [crude comment deleted by moderator]


violence begets violence. sometimes it's even sanctioned.

TheeBadOne
September 18, 2003, 09:44 PM
why couldn't they wear uniforms and no ski masks. because it makes them feel like men to terrorise other people in the same way that their step-daddy used to terrorise them before he punched out and banged their loser nurse mom twenty-five years earlier.
Nice talk, real nice...

Moparmike
September 18, 2003, 10:42 PM
justashooter, some friendly advice: Edit your post or a mod will edit it for you. No offense, but people who use language on this board like that which is contained in your post get good threads shut down.

Trailer doors open outwards...Not the new ones. My mom's door opens to the inside. Her back door opens to the outside though...

Stuff like this terrifies me.

Pappy John
September 19, 2003, 09:22 AM
Sounds to me like the Sanabria family needs to find a good noisy lawyer. "Hey kids, pack your bags. We're moving into a real house now!"

justashooter
September 19, 2003, 02:50 PM
my apologies to the delicate sensitivities of this board's clientel. i really am a rather nice fellow, and have been known to hold a higher standard with my demeanor when warranted.

bad cops are my one peeve (perhaps because there are so many). this forum is one of four i post on, and the acceptable language varies significantly by venue. the FAL files is my most used forum, and we tell it like it is, there.

colorful idioms often relate the level of dedication of a writer to the concepts tendered, and i am sorry to hear that those are not permitted here. if there is one thing i have been guilty of, it is to call it as i see it.

my assesment of the baltimore situation remains as i see it, even if nobody else does.

TheeBadOne
September 19, 2003, 03:16 PM
bad cops are my one peeve
What is your definition of a "bad cop" ?

justashooter
September 19, 2003, 03:49 PM
let's see,

ones who give false testimony about matter of fact in a court to help their girlfriend arrange false prosecution of her husband, ones who harrass and threaten gun club members on their own club when they bump into an unauthorised night training thing the gun club never gave permission to run, ones who rape their wives during a nasty divorce, and have her followed by patrol cars in her neighborhood (stalking), want me to go on?

these things i have seen with my eye.

cops who are disrespectful of others, don't obey the law themselves, and work out their own issues on other people are dispicable. i have an ex who is a shrink, and some shrink friends, one of which specialised in cop psychology. you don't want to know the things he told me.

i have three family members who are police who have told me about the things they do. i can't repeat their stories, and don't hang with them by choice.

a little about me: 39 dwm, no rap, was single custodial father of 3 kids for 7 years, homeowner for 16, have been an aircraft p mechanic, work as a quality/welding engineer for a manufacturer of minerals grinding equipment and travel globally representing said, have shot all my life, own 50 or so guns, 100 or so at one time or another, ccw for 16, and am an all around nice guy living 40 miles north of the lovely "charm city" of baltimore in the commonwealth of pennsylvania.

do you think i could have an opinion?

TheeBadOne
September 19, 2003, 05:25 PM
Thank you for your reply. Now taking your reply in to account, were you insinuating in your earlier post that the cops involved in this incident are 'bad cops'?

justashooter
September 19, 2003, 05:35 PM
egotistical, at least, with poor self concepts, fresh from a training session that involved watching "die hard part 16", and some serious high-fiving.

ski masks on cops is not a good thing. ninja suits with no id on them are foolish. staging an incident of intended violence in a grocery is moronic.

perhaps these guys need some more training? you did see that the chick in california that shot the cuffed guy in the back of her car, and then told people she thought she was using her taser, is suing the manufacturer of the taser, claiming that it looks too much like her glock, and that they didn't train her well enough.

somehow i knew it would be somebody elses fault that she killed that cuffed guy locked in the back seat of her patrol car.

50 Freak
September 19, 2003, 05:36 PM
Not trying to sound macho or anything like that. But if someone was kicking in my door at 3 am in the morning, I would respond by emptying my entire magazine of 308s into whoever it was.

Think about it. Your warm and snuggly in your PJs dreaming of girls jumping on trampolines, and then BOOM, someone kicks in your door shouting and shinning really bright surefire lights in your face, do you instantly focus on the bright lights and machine guns being pointed at you, or do you really think you can see the little "swat" name tags on their uniforms? Would your eyes be reeling from light overload that you automatically shoot at whatever is approaching you. I know I would. And I'd probably get killed.

Now the question is. If this was a no-knock to a wrong address (mine) and I end up killing a few of the swat officers without having 90+ bullets being pumped into my body (just say I got lucky). Would I be going off to the San Quentin for killing an LEO?

cdreid
September 19, 2003, 05:45 PM
Hehehe and this is a civil rights board?

Erm GMSD
First, if my guys go through your door and you start shooting you are in a world of hurt. It is three in the morning, you just wake up, and you are shooting it out with 5-10 guys with MP5/M4/Benelli and level III body armor. They have sure fire lights on the weapon foregrip, EOtech sights, and practice doing this. Obviously, the home owner is clearly outgunned. Very few rolling out of bed will defeat them.

Wait thats your DEFENSE of going in tactical?

Just a thought for ya. If "your boys" go through the door on the AVERAGE falfile user the citizen wont be the one outgunned :P Their 9mm machine pistols look cool in the Delta force movies you guys all seem to watch but i have a feeling 30 rounds of .308 coming through a homeowners door and your guys are suddenly gonna feel VERY VERY naked in their "level 3 cool looking ninjaesque designer body armor".

By im gonna be branded a cophater next ill bet :P
I have two close friends, one a cop, one ex.
Cousins a detective
Cousin in-laws a deputy
Sorta 2nd cousin was a sheriff
3rd cousin was a sheriff
his sons were deputies
But what the heck call me a cophater too :P and Damn! (i just wanted to get one of those cool lookin "moderated" messages in here.

Gotta love a civil rights board that censors its users lmao :what: :neener:

Keith
September 19, 2003, 05:46 PM
If this was a no-knock to a wrong address (mine) and I end up killing a few of the swat officers without having 90+ bullets being pumped into my body (just say I got lucky). Would I be going off to the San Quentin for killing an LEO?

Not if I was on the jury.

Keith

justashooter
September 19, 2003, 05:54 PM
If "your boys" go through the door on the AVERAGE falfile user the citizen wont be the one outgunned


hey dude,
nice to see another believer in the power of suggestion ("buy an FAL, they shoot thru anything!").

civil rights are meaningless in today's world. nobody who has the power to protect them has had to pay the price for them, and thereby have adequate respect for their value.

free speach is a thing of the past, unless you do it on the farm with me. come on out, have a glass of the fruit wine i brought back from quebec, and say what you really think.

TheeBadOne
September 19, 2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by justashooter

egotistical, at least, with poor self concepts, fresh from a training session that involved watching "die hard part 16", and some serious high-fiving.
Can you show me where in the article your found information indicating the officers involved were "egotistical"? Also, from what basis of knowledge do you make the comment that they used "Die Hard part 16" in their training? No source I've read mentioned the officers "high fiving".

Originally posted by justashooter

ski masks on cops is not a good thing. ninja suits with no id on them are foolish. staging an incident of intended violence in a grocery is moronic.
Can you tell me your level of tactical training in dynamic entrys? Do you know what type of "masks" were worn? Were they nomex (fire retardent)? Were they used to conceal the identity of an undercover officer(s)? Were they for protection from chemical agents? From what basis do you claim the officers had no ID on their uniforms? We've all seen plenty of tactial teams outfitted with solid black, summer camo, winter camo, urban camo uniforms with ID on them.

Originally posted by justashooter

perhaps these guys need some more training?
Again, could you state your credentials (or is this just a personal opinion not based on any training/personal work experiance?).
Originally posted by justashooter

you did see that the chick in california that shot the cuffed guy in the back of her car...
Yes, and while it may be pathetic, how is it relevant? It occured several states away with a different agency and had nothing to do with this entry. Is this A + B thus Z? Or just a general accounting/run down of police screw ups, thus they are all bad?

Thank you for your time

Keith
September 19, 2003, 06:22 PM
If an armed and masked man kicks down a door and gets shot... he was asking for it.

I would not convict anyone for shooting in such a circumstance - not even a violent felon who was legitimately targeted. I might vote for a conviction on gun possession or some lesser charge (if the guy was a felon), but I would never put someone in jail for defending themselves in such circumstances, no matter how many cops he killed.

These kinds of raids seem rooted in the idea that people don't have the right to defend their homes or even their lives. That these ninja's can just swoop in without uniforms and wearing masks, and then kill anyone who raises a hand to resist. It's insane - no, it's fascist! Law Enforcement needs to clearly identify themselves as law enforcement, period.


Keith

50 Freak
September 19, 2003, 06:26 PM
Well not at the risk of being called a "freak"....okay maybe a little bit of a "freak". But part of my SHTF gear is a FAL next to the bed, with a vest stuffed of 8 loaded FAL mags next to it. Along with a surefire and a Glock or two, and a Benelli M3 with buckshot in the closet for the Misses.

If the local swat team were busting in "Tyrone Gonzales gangbanger" house, yes they would definatley out gun the perp and his "gat". But seriously how many of us here have enough toys to match that of most swat teams. Plus how many of us here train more with those toys than your local LEO (maybe not swat). I know for myself, I train with the pistols at least once a week (thank God for reloads and surplus). And with the rifles every weekend I have free (which I admit isn't very many). Not to mention all the times I go paintballing (good teacher of tactics by the way).

I know for a fact I would start shooting if someone kicked my door down at 3 am. For those of us that believe that being a victim of a home invasion is statistically very low. I've had it happen to my wife's cousin. They broke in and tied up everyone and raped the daughter while having the mom cook for them. That was very very close in my book, and it made me a believer real quick of "it can happen to me".

TheeBadOne
September 19, 2003, 06:27 PM
http://www.tempe.gov/police/employment/swat.h16.jpg
Not much question who these guys are (armed and masked).

Keith
September 19, 2003, 06:31 PM
Nope, those particular Ninja wannabe's are clearly identified.

Edited to add: After further thought - I'd be hard-put to convict someone who claimed they couldn't read those words on the ninja suits in the DARK, or couldn't understand what they were saying behind the masks.
I mean, really, I'd have difficulty with that "beyond a reasonable doubt" business.

Yet, if asked to convict a cop who shot someone "resisting" such a raid, it would be much easier to convict. The cop entered a home in the middle of the night. He was not clearly identified. He was behaving in a threatening manner...
People have the right to defend themselves. In a perfect world, law enforcement would have to accept the risk of getting shot when using such questionable tactics, or the risk of being imprisoned if they shot someone who resisted.

Keith

TheeBadOne
September 19, 2003, 06:39 PM
http://members.shaw.ca/macfarlane2/shield.jpg
Could it be the Sheriffs Dept coming to visit?

TheeBadOne
September 19, 2003, 06:40 PM
http://www.specialoperations.com/Domestic/SWAT/images/entry1.jpg
It's "The Man".

50 Freak
September 19, 2003, 06:41 PM
Yeah, but could you see all that "Police" stuff on their shields and uniforms with 200+ lumens pointed at your face. Seems like to me they are setting up people to either surrender or be shot. Not kosher in my book.

TheeBadOne
September 19, 2003, 06:42 PM
http://ccso.charlestoncounty.org/swat1.gif
Could be S.W.A.T.

Keith
September 19, 2003, 06:47 PM
The problem with the pictures is that they are taken in daylight. What do those guys look like in the dark? What do they look like after a flash-bang grenade has gone off in front of your face?

I'm afraid I'd have to give the benefit of a doubt to anyone who shot at them in such a raid.

Keith

TallPine
September 19, 2003, 06:49 PM
And it takes all of this to arrest someone who didn't appear on a drug charge ....?

In the middle of the night ....?

I suppose they have day jobs, as mild mannered reporters, no doubt.

TheeBadOne
September 19, 2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Tallpine

And it takes all of this to arrest someone who didn't appear on a drug charge ....?
The warrant was for Felony Assault with a Weapon.

TallPine
September 19, 2003, 06:56 PM
Parisien was wanted on a Colville Tribal warrant for failure to appear and, according to a Spokane County Superior Court clerk, for allegedly violating conditions for his release pending sentencing on drug charges.

Where is the part about Felony Assault with a weapon ....?

cdreid
September 19, 2003, 06:57 PM
Hey badone
let me make this clear to you

If i have a firearm handy. Preferably a Fal... maybe a Fal para.. and a bunch of black hooded Anybodyt comes bursting htrough my door
i WILL leave as many as i can on the ground .. cold.

I live in the United States of America. You apparently desire to live in either Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany or Stalinist russia. Good luck to ya over there

TheeBadOne
September 19, 2003, 06:59 PM
They thought they were at space 7 at the Homestead Trailer Park, the residence of Joseph M. Parisien, 30. He was wanted on two warrants and is a suspect in a second-degree assault, Gahimer said.
..they believed the man they were after was armed, said sheriff's Deputy Ernie Gahimer, who participated in the raid. .

cordex
September 19, 2003, 07:00 PM
TheeBadOne,
This would be less of a problem if police could correctly identify the home in the first place, no?
If they're going to burst into someone's home without giving them prior notice (like a knock on the door and an "Open up! Police!"), they must be 100% certain that they are getting ready to knock down the right door. Easier to do when they're going after an active threat (good application of swat!) than when they're running from house to house trying to find drugs (bad application of swat!)

Additionally, they must take full responsibility for their actions. No, I don't mean that the department should take taxpayers money to give to the families whose doors get kicked down and get tasered or killed. I think whoever ordered that door kicked down, whoever misread the map, whoever signed off the wrong address should get to pay out of pocket. And possibly serve jail time for inciting assault and/or murder.

This is like running a car off the road before giving them a chance to pull over. It would make for great stories if the driver turns out to be some uber-bad guy, but if not ...

I hate the idea of going tactical where there isn't an active threat, but if you want to play that way, you need to make sure that you are really serving and protecting. Serving and protecting non-LEOs that is, not just each other.

justashooter
September 19, 2003, 07:01 PM
Can you show me where in the article your found information indicating the officers involved were "egotistical"? Also, from what basis of knowledge do you make the comment that they used "Die Hard part 16" in their training? No source I've read mentioned the officers "high fiving".

your lack of a sense of humour is understandable, as you are obviously
socially impaired. most cops are. that's sometimes why they take the
job - in an effort to put themselves in control of an uncomfortable place
we call "society"

Can you tell me your level of tactical training in dynamic entrys? Do you know what type of "masks" were worn? Were they nomex (fire retardent)? Were they used to conceal the identity of an undercover officer(s)? Were they for protection from chemical agents? From what basis do you claim the officers had no ID on their uniforms? We've all seen plenty of tactial teams outfitted with solid black, summer camo, winter camo, urban camo uniforms with ID on them.

well, i shot a groundhog in the barn door this afternoon with the 243.
the masks were described as ski masks to hide the identity of
undercover officers. didn't you read my earlier post?
the baltimore sun paper indicated that witnesses stated the uniforms
were not marked. the police changed their story about this issue
several times. the fact that the store owner was not charged seems
to resolve the question.

Again, could you state your credentials (or is this just a personal opinion not based on any training/personal work experiance?).

i'm trained as a welding engineer, and as a powerplant mechanic on
turbine fuel helicopter engines. i study the psychology of deviants
like police persons just for fun, and i saw "the longest day" 14 times


Yes, and while it may be pathetic, how is it relevant? It occured several states away with a different agency and had nothing to do with this entry. Is this A + B thus Z? Or just a general accounting/run down of police screw ups, thus they are all bad?

just noting that people in your profession, like most adolescents, rarely accept responsibility for their actions. a+b, therefore z shows intuitive thought process. cops like you tend to be linear thinkers, needing to have the dots connected for them

Thank you for your time

done with you. go play with your numbchucks

TheeBadOne
September 19, 2003, 07:04 PM
"Yeah, but what about.....Yeah but what about.."

That is what this thread has degraded into. Go back and read my posts. I was addressing specific comments/questions. Instead of having them answered, the aguement goes off in another direction. This shows bias. With said bias present there can be no meaningful exchange of ideas.

All the best

TheeBadOne
September 19, 2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by justashooter

your lack of a sense of humour is understandable, as you are obviously
socially impaired. most cops are. that's sometimes why they take the
job - in an effort to put themselves in control of an uncomfortable place
we call "society"

That's called "generalizing". 'All cops...etc etc'. Not very objective, and anything but accurate. You may have called that "humor", but I call it put downs and bashing
Originally posted by justashooter

the masks were described as ski masks
Yes, but a newspaper article is not the best source for accurate information. (ie: .25mm handguns...)
Originally posted by justashooter

i study the psychology of deviants
like police persons just for fun,
Sigh, more blind bashing. I guess you just don't like police in general. That's too bad. :(
Originally posted by justashooter

just noting that people in your profession, like most adolescents, rarely accept responsibility for their actions. a+b, therefore z shows intuitive thought process. cops like you tend to be linear thinkers, needing to have the dots connected for them....
done with you. go play with your numbchucks

Sigh, more generalizations and put downs.

Keith
September 19, 2003, 07:20 PM
Go back and read my posts. I was addressing specific comments/questions.

You didn't address the question about a night time raid. How is anybody supposed to know the screaming banshee's kicking down their door are cops?
I can't see how anyone targeted in such a raid could be convicted for shooting. It just seems like a clear cut case of self defense to me - even if the guy is a legitimate criminal! Even criminals are allowed to defend themselves!

Keith

pax
September 19, 2003, 07:35 PM
Closed, due to declining civility.

justashooter, cdreid, check your PMs.

pax

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