[The Janitor]

How would these work as a less lethal SD round in place of say, rubber shot or rocksalt?

The BB's are 6mm, roughly the same size as a #4 buck pellet. Ranging from 1.4-6.6 grains each, compared to about 20 grains for lead #4 buck. The 8mm variety(close in size to 0 buck) can range from 5-9 grains. With that weight, I doubt they would be very lethal unless fired at the face or throat, and they would lose energy very quickly in relation to lead or steel. By the information I've found, a high velocity airsoft pellet will remove teeth and eyes within 100 feet.


In case you were wondering, the shot is under $10 for 5000 rounds. Enough to fill roughly 120 3" 12 gauge shells.

Some outside information I found from someone who plays Airsoft:

Anything above 350fps using .2g BBs will be able to break skin at point blank.
400fps will break skin if it hits something exposed
450fps can break skin at distances over 50ft, again, on exposed skin part of the time
500fps using .2g, but using heavier BBs (as one should wiht a high-powered gun) should leave bleeding welts out to almost 100ft. Breaking skin is no problem under 50ft.
600fps: you have to use heavy BBs (or you're a moron). These can put an eye clean out, and plant BBs under skin under 50ft. I'm no ballistics expert, but this is almost as much energy as a paintball gun, BUT, it's concentrated on 1/9th the area -- about 5-7 times the ability to damage the target.


My guess is they would be fired in excess of 1000fps for 10+ yards. Im not sure they would deform like lead does, or how the stability would be at that speed. I do know the high-visibility colors of the bb's would make the doctor's job of removing pellets easier.

[Jeff F]

All less lethal rounds for SD are a bad idea. If you have to use a gun for self defense its a life or death situation and you need to put the threat down and right now. If its not a life or death situation you do not need to be using a gun.

[The Janitor]

Yeah. I agree.

Except you're arguing against a proposition that was never made in this thread.

[Dave McCracken]

Bad idea.

Using less lethal stuff in a situation where deadly force is acceptable in the eyes of the law creates doubt that force was even called for.

If I have to STOP someone because they constitute a threat to myself or others, whether they die as a result of my actions is inconsequential.

Plaintiff's attorneys love to get expert witnesses in the witness box testifying how less lethal stuff is more likely to maim than stop.

[The Janitor]

I agree with both of you.

Yet..That is not the point of the thread.

It's less of a SD Manstopper round, and more of a, "GTFO My Yard and don't come back" load to be loaded in front of your regular lethal SD loads if you need it.

[Fred Fuller]

Go right on ahead then. If you ever actually use it on someone, then you can practice your arguments on your local DA instead of us, after you kill or maim someone you had no business firing a shotgun at in the first place.

lpl

[The Janitor]

*sigh*

Nevermind. None of you seem to get the point of LL rounds, which is mostly for use on pests/inmates/rioters. In other words, things you really don't want to kill, but they aren't deterred by a simple warning, yet lethal force isn't necessarily necessary.


My code of ethics is this, concerning LL force. I don't want to have to use lethal force unless it is really really necessary. Just because being merciful doesn't hold up in court, doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do. A lot of absurd judgements are made in court.




Anyways, I thought I'd make the thread as a means of scientific discussion, but it's veering the wrong way. These same legal matters have been discussed 10000 other times. Can we please move on now?



Back to the intended topic:

I figured they would be a good load as they hit hard but lose a lot of energy in ricochet and over distances. They are also very cheap. Hence, what I believe to be a practical load for this purpose.

[Coronach]

Heh. YOU are the one who does not seem to understand. Less Lethal is labled "less" for a reason- it can still be lethal.

The law doesn't give a flying fig about your personal code of ethics. The law cares about the code of laws and caselaw in your jurisdiction. If you recognize that you're engaging in behavior that is legally highly questionable and decide to do so anyway, that's on you. Don't expect us to help you figure out which harebrained idea has the best scientific merit.

This is the shotgun forum, not the "Criminal Misuse of Airsoft Guns" forum. We discuss shotguns and their legal uses here.

Mike

[The Janitor]

I don't know who you're arguing with. It vaguely of seems directed at me.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand(if you can handle that without going into a Pavlovian-programmed rebuttle to a non-existent argument)


ARE. AIRSOFT. PELLETS. SUITABLE. FOR. A. CHEAP. PRACTICAL. LESS. LETHAL. LOAD.?


Yes..or no?

Personally, legality, what LL rounds can do, etc etc, it's been discussed before. Many many times. This thread is for the technical discussion of a load. I feel like Im trying to communicate with a ceiling fan.

[rcmodel]

No!

If someone is intent on killing or otherwise harming you, and shooting is justified at all, shooting him with an Air-Soft BB gun would just pizz him off.

There, hows that?

[The Janitor]

A refreshing dose of succinctness!

Although 41 Airsoft BB's from a 12 gauge traveling three times as fast will have slightly more sting than a single pellet from an airsoft toy. Don't know if you factored that in.

Regardless, it would probably be suitable for running off pesky neighborhood animals at longer ranges.

[JImbothefiveth]

No, they would not make a suitable less-lethal load, because they would penetrate the skin, maybe even far enough to hit vital organs if you aim for the right place!

[General Geoff]

It might possibly make for a decent "less lethal" load in a shotgun shell, however you'd never want to actually use it unless you were in a riot police squad (they use all kinds of weird loads). Otherwise stick to buckshot or slugs.

[WardenWolf]

Some airsoft guns can shoot in excess of 600 fps, and some people actually play with these guns (totally unsafe, but that's another story). At these velocities, the pellet has a sizeable fraction of the kinetic energy that a 670 FPS .177 lead pellet does, which has several documented cases of having killed someone. Depending on the particular weight of the BB's used, this can vary from 10% to 50%. When you factor that energy increases exponentially with mass and velocity, it quickly becomes apparent that these things are potentially lethal.

I have seen photographs of airsoft BBs fired at 450 FPS that penetrated earlobes and got stuck within. These things do NOT disintegrate when they hit a soft target, and actually do have some real penetration potential. When fired from a shotgun, they would almost certainly be lethal.

[JImbothefiveth]

I thought about this a little more, and even if they lacked stopping power, the person hit would probably bleed to death.

[MAX100]

I don't know why you need to ask anyone. If you feel the need load one and test it out on a cardboard target.


GC

[Seenterman]

DONT USE HANDLOADS FOR SD!!!
I will not explain for it has been detailed in length here and many other places google it if your interested.

Second if you want a Less Letal load they sell some online BUY THOSE if you wish to use a less letal load. They have rubber ball shot (I dont know the name) for sale, pepper / oc shot, and a few others.

Third if those are too expensive buy a box of #4 birdshot or another smaller caliber birdshot and use that as your first round if you want something that wont kill on the first shot.

Fourth DONT USE HANDLOADS FOR SD, basically in a court case a guy went to jail because his wife killed herself with his SD gun with his handloads in them. Gunshot residue pattern did not match as "supposed to" on his wifes hands because this guy loaded lighter than normal loads and he went to jail for killing his wife cause they said he did it.

[Gord]

and even if they lacked stopping power, the person hit would probably bleed to death.

...no. :scrutiny:

This thread is full of retarded. Unless the sole proposed use for the OP's shells is to scare off four-legged critters, the idea is patently useless as shooting at somebody is still going to be considered lethal force no matter what the ammo.

Regardless, OP, do you really think anyone's going to be able to provide firsthand evidence as to whether or not airsoft BBs out of a shotgun would "work"? Follow Max's advice, load one up and try it out yourself.

Retarded thread is retarded.

[mgregg85]

The only use I could see for the airsoft BBs is perhaps for a nuisance/pest round. I could see this being useful against feral dogs and cats from a short distance if you didn't want to kill them but just scare them away.

I'd be interested to see what a full power load would do to ballistics gel with clothing over it at 10 feet or so. Could be an interesting self defense round that wouldn't penetrate walls. That being said, I wouldn't use handload rounds for self defense by choice.

[JImbothefiveth]

buy a box of #4 birdshot or another smaller caliber birdshot and use that as your first round if you want something that wont kill on the first shot
Those are actually quite lethal.

[WNTFW]

Janitor,
The guys here are just trying to help you. Less Lethal does not guarantee non lethal is one issue.

Shooters using less lethal get paid to do it, have training and a protocol for using it. They also have a department that will be sued. Generaly would also have backup ready to go lethal.

I would get a less lethal load to dissamble or research them as a starting point.
Or a taser.

FWIW I have a shot shell reloader and it is just cheaper to buy certain things than to try to hand load them. I wanted to do my own buckshot and it was cheaper to buy it. Patterning, Load development & testing would have driven the price up even farther.

How would you deterimine if the load is appropriate for your less lethal application?

[Gord]

The only use I could see for the airsoft BBs is perhaps for a nuisance/pest round. I could see this being useful against feral dogs and cats from a short distance if you didn't want to kill them but just scare them away.

And in that case, why wouldn't you just save yourself the money and hassle and just buy a low-powered BB gun/moderately high-powered airsoft gun? Same effect (swatting a nuisance animal to get it moving) without any of the potential ramifications of using an actual firearm to do so.

[Floppy_D]

Caveat Emptor, I wouldn't use them for anything other than giggles at an outdoor shooting location.

Here's my research: I made a few airsoft loads using primer only in an 18" cylinder barrel (as in, no choke tube capability.) I did this not for any SD application, it was for a buddy who wanted to shoo cats off of his car. I imagine they made around 100 fps; it was a load to scare cats, not hurt them. The spread is visible, because airsoft pellets tend to, when not stabilized, goes all sorts of directions. The noise was minimal, the spread was 2 foot at 10yds and 6 foot at 20 yds. They would hit my back fence (30 yds away) with a noteworthy lack of authority. They did manage to scare the cats away without damaging the finish on his car. I worked up a load using a small amount of fast pistol powder, and the airsoft pellets spread so erratically that you couldn't keep them on a poster board beyond 5 yds. They come out unstabilized, knuckleball, and go anywhere they please. It's too light of a medium to push that fast unstabilized, and should you work up a load to push them to 600 fps, you won't get a decent group outside 2 or 3 yds, where your blast and wad become more of a threat.

To go back, employing non-lethal force means that you feel lethal force is not warranted... which makes a firearm a bad call. Pepper spray would work better in this application.

[icebones]

i had that idea too.
:D
i found some cheap AA target loads and pulled one apart

i dumped the powder, reinserted the wad and packed as many airsoft bb's in it as i could and pressed the crimp closed with my hands.

i fired it from a old H&R single shot with a 24'' bbl and modified choke, at a pine tree. distance was about 7 yards the force of the primer alone shattered the pellets turned them into dust. :what: maybe i had the wrong kind of bb's

good idea, but it just dont work

i definately wouldnt use it for non lethal, buts its just one of those cool ideas to try out and pass the time.
kinda like the time i tried to shoot blowgun darts and paintballs out of the same shotgun. i paid 70 bucks for it, so im really not worried about it

[mgregg85]

And in that case, why wouldn't you just save yourself the money and hassle and just buy a low-powered BB gun/moderately high-powered airsoft gun? Same effect (swatting a nuisance animal to get it moving) without any of the potential ramifications of using an actual firearm to do so.

Because the roundabout way is more fun?:cool: