Tenn. Hostage Standoff


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Andrew Rothman
September 17, 2003, 06:07 PM
From today's Minneapolis Star Tribune web site:

http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/4 103576.html (http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/4103576.html)

Man with gun, knife holds Tennessee college classroom hostage

Published September 18, 2003 (obviously not - it's still the 17th)

DYERSBURG, Tenn. -- A man with a gun and a knife took college students and a teacher hostage Wednesday afternoon, then released three people about three hours into the standoff, the mayor said.

An estimated 12 to 15 people remained in the classroom at Dyersburg State Community College, Mayor Bill Revell said. No injuries were immediately reported in the standoff.

Dyersburg Police Chief Bobby Williamson told the State Gazette newspaper that he deployed his special response team in an attempt to start negotiations.

School president Karen Bowyer called the state Board of Regents office in Nashville to report the standoff, regents spokeswoman Mary Morgan said. Bowyer told the Nashville officials that one faculty member was among the hostages.

There were no reports of shots being fired, Morgan said.

Bowyer told the Nashville office that college officials thought the gunman might be a student but they didn't know what sparked the incident about 75 miles northeast of Memphis.

Athletic Director Alan Barnett said that authorities cleared the campus of other students.

``Police ordered all students to evacuate, but employees could stay,'' Barnett said in a telephone interview. ``We had students coming in since it happened, but everyone is gone now.''

Ken Teutsch, a media specialist at the campus Learning Resource Center, said from his office that he could see a couple of police cars near the building where the standoff occurred.

``It's obviously very disturbing, very shocking, but on the other hand, we're not completely unprepared. There have been training and drills and that sort of thing,'' he said.


Here's the interesting part: GUNS ARE BANNED AT SCHOOLS IN TENNESSEE!

So how come this guy brought one to campus? Oh, yeah, I remember. Criminals don't obey laws!

So how come the standoff hasn't been resolved? Oh, yeah. Because LEGAL CARRY IS BANNED ON CAMPUS. The hostages have been effectively disarmed, but their assailant has not.

Am I the only one who sees the obvious problem?

Matt

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Tamara
September 17, 2003, 06:17 PM
Am I the only one who sees the obvious problem?

Instead of just issuing a ban on guns on campus, they should've issued a double secret ban on guns on campus? :confused:

TimH
September 17, 2003, 07:59 PM
I'm sure if the guy taking hostages was told that guns were illegal on campus he wouldn't have brought one on campus. He just didn't know:D

Bowlcut
September 17, 2003, 08:24 PM
exactly. i know everyone that KNEW that fireworks were illegal on campus didnt bring any. now why that girl almost went blind in one eye cause of a bottle rocket...i dont know.

i guess people dont realize if someone wants something bad enough...they will do it

TallPine
September 17, 2003, 08:29 PM
So you're sitting there in the room, with your gun in deep concealment ... hoping, I suppose, that the thing ends peacefully, or otherwise you will have to go to prison for saving (at least some of) your fellow students' lives.

And if you do, you will have years of wishing that you had acted just a few seconds sooner to save the life (lives?) that were lost, since it cost you the same either way.

Just thinking out loud ...

Kendra Pacelli
September 17, 2003, 09:41 PM
Hell, I know a couple of people who have a permit, carry their guns on school property (college campus). I know people who can conceal a gun so well, you can't tell.

Does anyone know the outcome of the standoff? Is it still going on?

R-Tex12
September 17, 2003, 10:15 PM
Here's the Australian version from a Brisbane newspaper. Different slant, eh? :)

http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,7300402%255E1702,00.html


'Al-Qaeda' gunman in college siege
From correspondents in Dyersburg, Tennessee
18sep03
A MAN with a gun and a knife claiming to be a member of al-Qaeda took a classroom of US college students hostage this afternoon.

Four people were released several hours into the standoff, authorities said.

Because the gunman claimed to be a member of an international terrorist organisation, the FBI has been called in, but Police Chief Bobby Williamson said authorities have no reason to believe the claim.

A SWAT team and about five hostage negotiators were among the officers called to the scene.

No injuries or gunshots were reported in the standoff at Dyersburg State Community College, about 120 km north-east of Memphis, Tennessee.

The gunman, believed to have a 9mm pistol - the calibre now used by US armed forces - had made no demands but said he would kill himself, Williamson said.

Williamson said About 12 to 16 people were in the classroom when the standoff began.

Officers were communicating to the gunman through student hostages on their mobile phones, "but he won't talk directly to us," Williamson said.

Police refused to identify the gunman but said he was not a student or college employee. They are talking to his sister on the scene, but the gunman won't talk to her, Williamson said.

"I think eventually he'll surrender," Williamson said.

Athletic director Alan Barnett said that authorities cleared the campus of other students.

4v50 Gary
September 17, 2003, 10:19 PM
I hope this guy surrenders and nobody gets hurt. It would do us no good to have innocent blood spilled.

Kendra Pacelli
September 17, 2003, 10:19 PM
hm:rolleyes:

'Al-Qaeda' gunman in college siege

They just confirmed this on the news tonight.

Kendra Pacelli
September 17, 2003, 11:10 PM
UPDATE:

Hostage taker has died and two hostages were injured, authorities state that they are not fatal. He also stated that he was afiiated with Al-Quida...Sister stated that she found a suicide note stating that he was going to kill people then himself. He was supposed to be on trial today in memphis for assaulting someone. He was not a student of the college. What I don't understand is how he got in the first place and just walk into a classroom. That doesn't seem right.










I think I have dominated this thread sorry.

Ala Dan
September 17, 2003, 11:19 PM
Thanks Kendra for the update !

Looks kind'a like school security was lacking doesn't it?


Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Doctor Wu
September 17, 2003, 11:19 PM
He claims to be an Al-Queada member, but his only demands are pizza and soda. :rolleyes:

Now that is a hard core terrorist. :p

Kendra Pacelli
September 17, 2003, 11:24 PM
but his only demands are pizza and soda

They stated that he didn't make any demands...or maybe they meant money...or maybe I am just tired:rolleyes:

Doctor Wu
September 17, 2003, 11:27 PM
Foxnews said that aside from the food and drink, he made no demands.
Of course the media lacks credibility.
Personally I would have gotten some barbeque wings with the pizza, but I'm not a hard core Al-Quesadia terrorist like this guy. :p

TheeBadOne
September 17, 2003, 11:30 PM
How long until we get to: "The cops screwed up" threads? :neener:

Doctor Wu
September 17, 2003, 11:32 PM
SWAT team delivers pizzas, but to the wrong address. :neener:

Seriously, I hope everyone comes home alright from that mess.
My prayers are with them.

Doctor Wu
September 18, 2003, 12:17 AM
It's official, gunman kills himself after wounding two hostages.
Not as bad an outcome as it could have been and not as good as it could have been either.
Here's wishing a speedy recovery to the wounded.

NIGHTWATCH
September 18, 2003, 12:53 AM
Witness how we all are held hostage by one criminal act. :mad:

TallPine
September 18, 2003, 08:35 AM
If this isn't a reason to allow concealed carry in schools, then I don't know what is ....

Of course, this fruitcake chooses a "victim disarmament zone"

Tim Burke
September 18, 2003, 09:39 AM
He claims to be an Al-Queada member, but his only demands are pizza and soda. Did he want Canadian bacon on his pizza?

buzz_knox
September 18, 2003, 09:55 AM
Living in Dyersburg is enough to drive anyone nuts.

tyme
September 18, 2003, 10:50 AM
So you're sitting there in the room, with your gun in deep concealment ... hoping, I suppose, that the thing ends peacefully, or otherwise you will have to go to prison for saving (at least some of) your fellow students' lives.
Survivors aren't searched after a hostage situation ends?

cordex
September 18, 2003, 11:24 AM
Survivors aren't searched after a hostage situation ends?
As I understand it, standard practice is to treat all hostages as potential perps until it is known otherwise. That means handcuffs and searches.

I don't risk more legal action than usual if I would choose to carry onto my campus. I would, however, risk being kicked out of school. I do as I see fit.

.45TCB
September 18, 2003, 12:14 PM
Full story from the (Memphis, TN) Commercial Appeal: Police Kill Hostage Taker (http://www.gomemphis.com/mca/midsouth_news/article/0,1426,MCA_1497_2272257,00.html)

BTW, in reference to the side discussions on this thread, an interesting point of TN law is that if an illegally carried firearm is used in defense of one's self or others, they may not be charged under the state statutes.

TheeBadOne
September 18, 2003, 12:25 PM
Carolyn Reeves, a cousin of Kilpatrick's from Memphis, was critical of police handling of the incident.

She said police did not keep the family informed while briefing the families of the hostages. Ahh....there we have it. The police should have involved the shooters family in tactical planning, that way they could have tipped him off... :rolleyes:

Reeves said her cousin was manic-depressive and "he sometimes gets upset."

"He wanted to go back to school," Reeves said adding that Kilpatrick had recently been fired by FedEx in Memphis over an altercation on the job.

Reeves said the SWAT assault was "unnecessary." ..and there we have it, the police were wrong.

"Why are you going to go in and shoot a mental patient? Couldn't they have shot him in the leg? Couldn't they have done anything outside of killing him?" Reeves said. ...and again! Why didn't they shoot the gun out of his hand as he was shooting hostages? I've seen it in the movies? Maybe they should explain to her that they didn't go in and shoot a mental patient, they went in and shot an Active Shooter, who was shooting the people he took hostage.

Andrew Rothman
September 18, 2003, 12:38 PM
"Why are you going to go in and shoot a mental patient? Couldn't they have shot him in the leg? Couldn't they have done anything outside of killing him?" Reeves said.

Well, they could have asked nicely for him to come out with his hands up. Oh, wait, they did.

They could have waited for him to calm down and see the futility of his positon. Oh, wait, they did.

They could have "negotiated" with him to get him to release some hostages. Oh, wait, they did.

They could have saved shooting him as a last resort, only if he actually tried to hurt people. Oh, wait, they did.

I am anxious to learn whose bullets injured the two hostages, but overall, it sounds like the police handled things quite well, and gave this violent creep every opportunity to stay alive that they could.

I would have been a lot less patient.

And I am even more resolved to carry everywhere, and screw the rules.

Matt

BamBam
September 18, 2003, 01:31 PM
"Why couldn't they just shoot him in the leg?"

Good question. What they should have done is tripped his safety and mag release levers with their first two shots.

Note to self: Pick up some leg silhouette targets on the way to the range today.

cordex
September 18, 2003, 01:48 PM
TheeBadOne,
I often think that you're a stopped clock, but by all reports you're right on the money in this case.
Active shooter trying to massacre hostages (have to assume he wanted to kill them) gets taken down - good on SWAT. Hope they weren't responsible for any of the other injuries.

TheEgg
September 18, 2003, 02:37 PM
Sounds like an excellent job by local police and the SWAT cops. Kudos to all LEO involved in this.

THIS kind of situation is exactly what SWAT was created for, IMHO. But I am dubious about some other situations that SWAT is being used in these days.

gunsmith
September 18, 2003, 02:45 PM
to spread fear of college.
we all know he could not have had a gun!
that would be violating the law!!

Carlos Cabeza
September 18, 2003, 04:06 PM
They only do that "shoot the gun out of the hand" trick in those old western movies. :D

TheeBadOne
September 18, 2003, 04:08 PM
They only do that "shoot the gun out of the hand" trick in those old western movies.
Yes, but unfortunately a large segment of America bases it's veiws on TV/Movies... :(

cordex
September 18, 2003, 04:17 PM
They only do that "shoot the gun out of the hand" trick in those old western movies.
To be fair, it has been successfully done in reality before. I think they had a video of one such episode on one of Fox's "When Criminals Attack 16" or "America's Scariest Police Shootouts Caught On Tape 5".

Perp sitting in the middle of the road in a lawn chair. Dangles his weapon and a sniper hits it from somethiing like 75 yards. Gun is no longer in perps hand and then he's swarmed. Look on his face was priceless.

The primary difference between our suicidal lawnchair man and this hostage taker was, of course, that police could safely take that shot without endangering themselves or hostages, and were prepared to back it up with more deadly force if it didn't succeed. Hard to carefully plan something like that out when you're kicking down a door on an active shooter and not entirely sure what awaits on the other side.

Never should be counted on.

Tamara
September 18, 2003, 05:27 PM
Reeves said the SWAT assault was "unnecessary."

Honey, this is exactly what SWAT teams were invented for: barricaded suspects with hostages.

The only thing that would've made it "unncessary" is if three or four students plus the teacher all threw down and aired this clown out, thereby nipping his wannabe jihad right in the bud.

BluesBear
September 18, 2003, 05:54 PM
"Why are you going to go in and shoot a mental patient?
Because the Crazy SOB had a gun.
Couldn't they have shot him in the leg?
NO! As has been proven in another thread, if you shoot someone in the leg they might bleed to death.
Couldn't they have done anything outside of killing him?" Reeves said.
They tried but he wouldn't let them.


I bet if his sister is ever held hostage by a gun waving nutjob somewhere in the back of her fuzzy little brain will appear this thought.... "Will someone, anyone, please shoot him so I can go home."

cordex
September 18, 2003, 05:59 PM
Because the Crazy SOB had a gun.
More importantly, he was threatening unnecessary deadly force, and attempting to deliver on his threats.

BluesBear
September 18, 2003, 06:03 PM
Yeah that too.
:D

John/az
September 18, 2003, 06:42 PM
I'm a student; I carry.

'Nuff said. ;)

Kendra Pacelli
September 18, 2003, 11:36 PM
I have been following this story very closely, and I am sorry, I have to laugh. I am sorry that people were injured. He was a mental patient who didn't have the money for medication....Duh! TENNCARE! Pays for all of the medication. The sister standing there stating that they shouldn't have killed him. Makes me laugh. This is what he wanted. He stated that in his suicide letter. Police had negotiaters out there the whole time trying to disarm him and make a deal. This guy had a death wish.

My question is this, and if someone has the answer, please tell me, How the hell did he get inside in the first place? Now Colleges are stating that they are going to put in metal dectectors. There goes the neighborhood. technical schools have tools that can be used as weapons. They need these tools for classes. Metal detectors will be setting off all the time due to the metal of these tools. Things would have gone a lot better if everyone worked together. I also heard (from a secondary source) that some of the hostages were carrying. Why did they not take this joker out? Did I hear wrong?

cordex
September 19, 2003, 11:46 AM
How the hell did he get inside in the first place?
Don't know about their college, but mine is pretty open. Sometimes you need your ID card to open computer labs, or science labs, but you can wander the halls or go into most rooms without having your ID checked. No big deal.

If metal detectors ever went up in my school, I'd cause them more trouble than they'd be worth.

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