Makes our side look stupid...


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.455_Hunter
November 12, 2008, 02:31 PM
This guy has been watching way too much South Park: "Look Out, Its Coming Right For Us!"

I will always support someone defending themselves from an aggressive dog, but a black lab with a stick in its mouth- come on! :uhoh:

If you are that afraid of dogs, maybe you need to stay home and not venture out on a off-leash National Forest hiking trail. :banghead:


Hunter Charged With Shooting Hiker's Dog
Deputies Say Hunter Thought Black Lab Would Attack

POSTED: 5:33 pm MST November 11, 2008
UPDATED: 6:25 pm MST November 11, 2008

DENVER -- A Wisconsin hunter is being charged after deputies said he shot and killed a dog while hunting in Eagle County.

Lee Jensen will be charged with criminal mischief for recklessly discharging a firearm, the Eagle County Sheriff's Office said.

Nathan Schroepfer was hiking up Lake Creek Trail with his roommate's chocolate Lab on Nov. 5 when the dog veered off. The dog was about 15 feet away, with a stick in its mouth, when it approached Jensen, deputies said.

Jensen told deputies that he was afraid for his life when he saw the dog and that's why he shot it, said sheriff spokeswoman Shannon Cordingly.

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Bailey Boat
November 12, 2008, 02:37 PM
I can comment about people like that, it would get me banned...... Wonder what he would have done if Bambi accidentally wandered by?????

KeithET
November 12, 2008, 02:43 PM
Most likely he mistook the dog for a dear ( it happens ) and shot it. When he discovered his mistake he tried to cover it up. Trigger happy hunters are my biggest fear when I go hunting.

KeithET

BBQLS1
November 12, 2008, 02:44 PM
I smell something funny.

Mike2
November 12, 2008, 02:45 PM
Ignorance abounds........:fire:

cassandrasdaddy
November 12, 2008, 02:48 PM
aren't the off leash areas still "strict voice control"
i am a dog nut but try not to forget not everyone else is. and my 90 pound best friend scares more than a few folks. and yes that is my problem if shes loose. perversely its my lil cute dog that bites

highorder
November 12, 2008, 02:54 PM
Since when can you shoot a dog in your presence with no provocation?

.455_Hunter
November 12, 2008, 02:56 PM
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/17959605/detail.html

Nugilum
November 12, 2008, 03:37 PM
Does anyone know a "Dangerous" black lab? We've got a 90 pound MARSHMALLOW here. :rolleyes:

Closing the action on my AR makes him run out of the room.

cassandrasdaddy
November 12, 2008, 03:51 PM
mine is a lab husky cross and if you say the word gun she hides. but she scares folks shes big and i go to great lengths to keep her safe as a result.

cassandrasdaddy
November 12, 2008, 04:01 PM
http://www.winonadailynews.com/articles/2008/01/24/news/07dogbite.txt

http://www.dogsbite.org/blog/2007/12/labrador-attacks-boy-day-before.html

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/OtherBreedBites/2000/BlackLabSmithnetNY.pdf

http://www.westislandchronicle.com/article-258116-DOG-ATTACK-No-bite-in-leash-law-Pointe-Claire-resident.html


lots more of these out there

mgregg85
November 12, 2008, 04:22 PM
I've got a 90 pound chocolate lab and the only thing he endangers is the big bag of kibble. That is unless you have a bad fear of slobber or having your crotch sniffed.

I always let him run free on the trail ahead of me when I take him for walks in the woods. If anyone ever decides to shoot him "out of fear for their lives":rolleyes:, I might just get scared for my life as well.

mljdeckard
November 12, 2008, 04:24 PM
The chocolate labs I know only vibrate constantly and lick.

Carlos Cabeza
November 12, 2008, 04:26 PM
I raise labs and they will definately kill a tennis ball !

I have had the occasional "biter" but for most they are VERY DOCILE..........

cassandrasdaddy
November 12, 2008, 04:33 PM
"I have had the occasional "biter" but for most they are VERY DOCILE.........."

could you as a breeder tell us how to tell the difference with a strange dog moving towards us? for someone who is not into dogs?

The Bushmaster
November 12, 2008, 05:05 PM
Well I guess that the lab was going to beat him to death with that stick. More then likely beat him to death with his tail waggin ferociously. And if the dog is 15 feet away I would say that was still under voice control...How close was the hunter when this happened? And he couldn't tell the owner to back the dog off or "was it mean?"

IDIOT!!!

cassandrasdaddy
November 12, 2008, 05:08 PM
you were able to glean many more facts than i was.... whats your secret?

Friendly, Don't Fire!
November 12, 2008, 05:12 PM
The only way I would shoot a dog is if it was either ready to pounce on me, or is already biting me.

Bang.

Vicious-Peanut
November 12, 2008, 05:13 PM
A dog can certainly hear its owner at distance well over 100 feet, which happens to be alot farther than 15 feet. ;) The dog had a stick in it's mouth, it wanted to play and this idiot didn't identify his target (which is hunting rule #1) and shot this poor dog.

"It was going to hurt me" Right, Lord knows there is nothing more dangerous than a Labrador with a stick in it's mouth.

Odd that he thought it was a deer (or whatever he was hunting), but later he said he felt he was in danger. He felt threatened from something that he didn't know what it was? Moron.

KelVarnson
November 12, 2008, 05:23 PM
I'm OK with letting dogs run off leash on trails, but I have trained mine to always stay behind me.

eyebrows
November 12, 2008, 05:25 PM
Don't assume he even saw the dogs owner. Could be he thought the dog was alone and he shot it just because he could.

Carlos Cabeza
November 12, 2008, 05:40 PM
Cassandra's Daddy,

To be honest, I could not tell you how to tell the dog would attack.

A lab is a very smart animal but hardly predictable.

I would say hair raised on spine and tail, crouched stance and fixed eyes on its target.

I will say NEVER run. Stand your ground and maintain eye contact. Then hit the dog in the head with the butt of the gun............:D
J/K

If I were the dogs owner, I would be very upset, but I cannot say how someone else might react to my dogs behavior.

I only go hunting with the dog/s that are the most "people friendly". You never know who you will meet in the field.

I will tell you of the DNR officer who got his hand bitten trying to pet one of my dogs.........:what: Luckily, he was as smart as I hoped......;) 'cause I thought I was going to JAIL !:eek:

Nugilum
November 12, 2008, 05:42 PM
^^ Quite possibly :fire:

Seenterman
November 12, 2008, 05:52 PM
I routinely pass big dogs daily much closer that 15 ft away from me and I am not in fear of my life. I dont know what difference a leash would make if a dog decieded it wanted to take a chunk out of me, what drag the dog off me along with the chunk of my flesh in its mouth? YaY!

What happened to a swift kick to the head? Hell the dog wasn't even in kicking distance, trigger happy dumb dumb.

mp510
November 12, 2008, 06:03 PM
I don't think there is enough info to really make the good shoot/bad shoot call. 15 feet might not seem close, but remember, it is only 5 yards away. We know what people can do within that space (and how quickly). Dogs can do the same (and probably worse). We don't know exactly what the dog was doing when the hunter shot- maybe it was showing aggressive behavior. Just because some of you folks have labs that are gentle doesn't mean they are all that way. About a deacde ago, I was bitten (on the theigh), unprovoked by a neighbor's black lab. The dog literally came out of no where, and bit without provocation. Even if the dog that was killed was usually tame, we mustn't forget that it is an animal and that animals are by nature not truly predictable.

Ragnar Danneskjold
November 12, 2008, 06:07 PM
I'm not sure if there is anything more aggravating than dog owners who expect everyone else to know/assume their dog is friendly.

We don't really know much about the situation either way. So to assume he is guilty simply because you know your black lab is friendly is a pile of BS.

.455_Hunter
November 12, 2008, 06:37 PM
Like I said, I support people's right to defend themselves against AGGRESSIVE dogs- A dog that is snarling, barking, growling, and acting like it is going to attack.

A lab with a stick in its mouth trotting up to you is NOT AGGRESSIVE, even if you are paranoid of dogs. :confused:

The sheriff seems in this case seems to agree.

Remember, this is the same part of the state where a man shot a mountain lion a few months back while out walking with his wife. The man received FULL support from law enforcement and state wildlife officials for doing what had to be done. The is no antigun/antiself-defense bias at work here.

When I was 13, I was attacked by a nasty golden retriever. I did manage to hit him with my 10 pump single-shot Crossman pellet pistol, which stopped the attack.

When I hike now, I am wary of approaching dogs, especially those without owners nearby, but I am would never draw, let alone shoot, unless one of them was acting hostile.

I believe that a similar criteria for defense against humans could easily be applied to dogs- just because a dog is near you does not give the right to shoot it, especially on public property.

cassandrasdaddy
November 12, 2008, 06:42 PM
and to play devils advocate my 90 pound best friend has only been people aggressive once in the woods towards a hunter, at the time i was very disturbed 2 years go by same guy gets locked up for some very ugly behavior. and strangly enough i had my kids with me when she tried to eat this guy thankfully she was on a lead. almost too long a lead i barely got her held she got real close to him. if i knew then what i know know i'd have let her eat.
barring video we'll never know the whole truth but i do know that a dog on a lead is much less likely to come to harm. let em off take the responsibility for what happens. i've lost dogs that way it sucks thats why i'm strict about letting mine roam

twoclones
November 12, 2008, 06:45 PM
Wednesday, Nov. 12, 2008
Richland, WA man arrested on gun charge
By the Herald staff

A 43-year-old Richland man who couldn't keep his gun in his pants was arrested at a Richland bar Saturday.

Officers were called to Lee's Tahitian, 1342 Jadwin Ave., at about 11:45 p.m. after security officers reported a man was displaying a semi-automatic pistol to other patrons, Capt. Mike Cobb said.

When officers approached Jevin J. Edgar, he tried to pull away and was taken to the ground to be controlled, Cobb said.

During the struggle, a 9 mm pistol fell out, Cobb said. The pistol's magazine was loaded but there was not a round in the chamber.

After officers took Edgar into custody, they learned he did not have a concealed pistol license.

He was arrested and booked into the Benton County jail on suspicion of carrying a concealed weapon without a permit and carrying a firearm in an establishment serving alcohol.
...

Crunker1337
November 12, 2008, 06:48 PM
We have no way of knowing how aggressive this dog was acting, therefore, we have no way of knowing whether this hunter's actions were justifiable.

fgr39
November 12, 2008, 06:58 PM
I grew up with a 90 pound black lab that bit more than one person. Both times it was on our property and the dog was defending it self and us. He never attacked unprevoked but would take someone down in a heartbeat if threatend. Big labs can be intimidating. I had a GSD come after me while walking my Golden retriever and daughter (3 years old at the time) I timed my kick just right and caught that dog in the jaw and it lost interest, the owners were outside and couldn't belive what had just happened.

So, the truth is might be somewhere in the middle of the two sides of this story.

cassandrasdaddy
November 12, 2008, 07:00 PM
So, the truth is might be somewhere in the middle of the two sides of this story.

repeated for truth! wouldn't be the first time

BubbaX
November 12, 2008, 07:40 PM
Sadly someones pet is dead and I would say not many people will believe, no matter what, that the dog deserved to be shot. As a hunter and gun owner we all will lose in the court of public opinion. Even if the dog was going to attack.

mbt2001
November 12, 2008, 09:37 PM
Black dog, running through brush... Rabies... Media blowing up the drugs being grown on forest service land.

Anyway, I can't say I blame him. It is a dog for crying out loud. Ain't worth ruining somenes life. Pay a fine, case dismissed.

rforgy
November 13, 2008, 07:20 PM
local news site

http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20081111/NEWS/811119917/1078&ParentProfile=1062&title=Police%20charge%20hunter%20in%20Edwards%20dog%20shooting

qwert65
November 13, 2008, 08:27 PM
I for one has never understood people being afraid of dogs(except maybe very large ones like great danes) a 90lb dog is very strong but most full grown people can handle one ie let it bite your arm and then pick up the dog I am NOT advocating people waiting for a dog to bite them to defend themselves. I'm only saying that a single dog is not as dangerous as most make it out to be.

Further most dogs can act aggressive if frightened i've found spitting in their face confuses them and most run away. You can tell a frightened dog bc it will run at you snarling but then stop and crouch a couple feet away(still snarling) Here's my point if you're a human with a gun I see no reason to fear a dog(if armed even a great dane)

There are a few instances where an animal will randomly attack it's hard to explain what that looks like but you know it if it happens to you. The same way you know if someone is being confrontational you don't need it explained.

To many people are trigger happy when it comes to animals and the OP is right it just makes hunters look stupid. I don't give this guy a break bc hunters are suppossed to know animal behavior if he didnt know that he was being a bad hunter if he did he was being an a#$%

cassandrasdaddy
November 13, 2008, 08:55 PM
how many times, in real life, have you let a 90 pound dog take your arm and lifted it up? and what was your result? if any

garymc
November 13, 2008, 09:14 PM
Not much info here. Elk hunting? Is it an area where one would expect to encounter an elk hunter? Was the guy trying to use the dog to teach the evil Bambi hunter a lesson? I haven't seen the polygraph results from the guy who took his roommate's dog out for a romp during elk season and the alleged hunter who shot the dog. The story about carrying the dog a long ways and then leaving it sounds curious, too. Does that explain the 15 foot thing? 15 feet from the hunter or 15 feet from the guy "in control" of the dog? I think its a good thing we don't get to levy punishment based on this kind of info. If the stick in the mouth thing is true, I don't have much sympathy for the shooter. If the "fear for my life" thing was true, then what can you say?

cassandrasdaddy
November 13, 2008, 09:27 PM
he left the dog overnite? something is not passing sniff test.and if the hunter screwed up i'm surprised that he made himself available be easy to vanish. the kid with the dog actions make me wonder

5knives
November 13, 2008, 09:47 PM
Don't tell me that I'm the only person on THR that ever had to deal with feral dogs?

Black Labs are wonderful, gentle, and intelligent dogs, like most working dogs and hunters. Golden Labs might be a tiny bit more flighty.

Feral's packed up? Another story totally (3 can bring out pack behavior) .

Lets see now. The story is missing far more than it says, but ... elk hunter ... presumably well away from the city park ... lone dog (maybe) no owners in sight ... dog moves toward hunter (maybe) .... "hunter" may have had past experience with dog packs (maybe) ... who knows ... GIGO.

Story as it stands isn't worth the bandwidth to discuss it!

Nice chance for everyone to stand up and say "I love my Dog" okay, I love my dogs too.

FWIW, WI has periodic problems in many areas with feral dogs as well as loose pets and farm dogs packing up.

You'd bawl like I did the day I saw what a pack of farm and pet dogs did to a neighbors little herd of sheep. The few still alive staggering around dragging their entrails, others with their faces torn off! kind of ugly.

Got together a little posse and tracked and disposed of all 7 dogs, two of the owners were in the 'posse. Two of the dogs were Black labs.

This story grabs your attention but there's no information in it!

Regards,
:)

Tyrannosaurus
November 13, 2008, 10:06 PM
My inclination to get a CCW was reinforced by experiences with loose pit bulls and pit bull hybrids in my neighborhood.

As vehement as I am about our rights as American citizens, I think people should need some kind of license to breed, raise, or own pit bulls.

Guns don't kill people, but irresponsibly raised dogs do.

I've got to question this article. Do both parties agree that there was a stick in the dog's mouth?

And really- why would someone be elk or deer hunting near a hiking trail?

MIUper
November 13, 2008, 10:30 PM
I read the articles, there's not enough information to decide.

I've been attacked by a 90lb dog and it isn't fun, they are fast and strong; if not for the help of two freinds I'm sure I'd have worse scars, and it didn't last long.

Who are we to say the hunter wasn't scared enough to think he needed to defend himself? After my experience I might do the same.

BTW I had a 100lb golden sweety that never hurt anyone in 11 years. Except for one guy who he decided he didn't like, I had to pull him off. You never know.

Firethorn
November 13, 2008, 11:01 PM
I will tell you of the DNR officer who got his hand bitten trying to pet one of my dogs......... Luckily, he was as smart as I hoped...... 'cause I thought I was going to JAIL !

Well, isn't that the normal reaction when you go and bite an officer? Sheesh, relax a little. ;)

On the story: Sounds like somebody's lying, or very unaware of dogs. Other than that, not enough information. There's reasons court cases for stuff like this tend to take days.

357wheelgunner
November 13, 2008, 11:07 PM
I was mauled by a relatives "sweet family dog" when I was young. I'm not terrified of dogs, but I respect the damage they can do. I like people pointing guns in my face about as much as I like strange dogs running up and jumping on me and whatnot.

Just because you don't understand how others react doesn't mean that they are stupid. Every single person whose pitbull has mauled their children swore that he was the biggest sweetest dog in the world....until it ripped their kid apart.

Not all dogs are to be feared, but they are all capable of doing damage and should be respected accordingly.

BCC
November 13, 2008, 11:21 PM
Stick carrying dogs rarely attack.

5knives
November 14, 2008, 12:14 AM
"Stick carrying dogs rarely attack."

True, but we really don't know if this dog had a stick in it's mouth, do we?

Just the dog owners word and that might be ... ummm ... mistaken?

OTOH, friend of mine used to Breed and show St. Bernards, just possibly the gentlest and most intelligent dogs there are.

Their national Champion was a tad high strung, got mad at a neighbor kid who was teasing him, grabbed the kid and drug him into his dog house. Didn't hurt the kid, just wouldn't let him out again, the screams for help were pretty funny though, Kid never teased the dog again.

But if that dog had a 'stick' in his mouth it might be his favorite 8 foot sapling he'd uprooted. Tended to make folks pretty nervous if they didn't know him. That 'stick' was his favorite toy. He liked to take it for walks.

Regards,
:)

qwert65
November 14, 2008, 07:06 AM
crassandrasdaddy, I've twice been attacked by large dogs first time I got bit in the butt and I wound up punching the dog which made it stop attacking then I had to catch it to finish giving it it's shots.

The second time a rottie grabbed my arm by the wrist she was only about 60lbs i grabbed her scruff and twisted it and spit in er face and she let go. If you reread my post I do not reccomend waiting to get bit I was stating that a full grown armed man is able to give a dog quite a large amt of latitude. If it was me I would have waited if the dog jumped at me I would of shot it/smacked it

I'm a 3rd year vet student and have been around animals all my life. I've been bitten by lots of things ducks, dogs, cats, horses which are the worst by the way bc they are 9x the size of you.

I've shot dogs before as well when they were killing our ducks. The purpose of my post was my honest opinion that a single dog running through the woods is not as dangerous to a full grown man as people think.

Let me ask you this how many full grown men do you hear about being savaged by a SINGLE dog? and of those how many were about a 100lbs? The OP is right this does make us look bad

This also goes back to a hunter being aware of animal behavior.

Sinixstar
November 14, 2008, 07:27 AM
I'm sure there's plenty of things both the hiker and the hunter could have done differently to prevent this, and i'm sure we'll probably never know beyond a doubt exactly what happened.

End of the day it's a damn shame. Somebody's pet is dead, and it didn't have to happen. That kinda sucks, and that's what people will focus on.

cassandrasdaddy
November 14, 2008, 07:56 AM
one thing i wonder was the dog collared? thats a big part of my shoot/don't shoot id.

and if they were so far back in the boonies the kid took overnite to get back to dog they were in the boonies

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