Can a .32 ACP CC gun have enough balls to be a respectable defense gun?


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wbond
November 13, 2008, 06:02 AM
I like Fiocchi 32 ACP for my Firestorm (Bersa) .32 ACP. In addition to perfect functioning, the Fiocchi is very hot loaded. I shot into a water barrel from 8 ft away and EVERY hollow point expanded beautifully and consistently. How is that possible? Well, for one thing, Fiocchi gives around 1,200 fps to a 60 grain SJHP from a 3.5" barrel gun.

The reason most Americans think the .32 ACP is a wimp round is that all USA brands of .32 ACP are wimpy to varying degrees. Corbon .32 isn't to bad, but Fiocchi is far more powerful in this cartridge/caliber for medium (3.3") to long (3.8"+) barrels. The other USA brands of .32 (other than Corbon) are pathetically wimpy. Fiocchi is the hottest/strongest factory .32 ACP there is. Many other European brands make semi-hot .32 ACP ammo (semi-hot being similar power to Corbon .32 ACP). Fiocchi is by far the hottest (really the only hot) .32 ACP ammo made.

For comparison: Typical USA "high-end" defense ammo for .32 ACP gives only 125 ft/lbs, though a few brands give 130 ft/lbs. Winchester Silver Tip and Federal Hydrashok being examples of some of the best American ammo and only offering 125 and 130 ft/lbs energy. Typical velocities are 900 to 1000 fps for 60 grain hollow point .32 ACP American defense ammo. That is pitiful. No wonder most US Citizens think the .32 ACP is wimpy and the .380 much better. That is a correct opinion when looking at most USA .32 and .380 ammo. Corbon does claim 147 ft/lbs for their .32 ACP and I believe them. It seems clear that Corbon is the best of the USA .32 ACP ammo. However, most/much European .32 ammo is MUCH hotter and better than any USA brand.

Did you ever wonder how the Europeans and South Americans can be relatively happy with .32 for so many years? Even with many of their police having carried it for years? In some S American nations police still carry it. How do they get by? Well, they have hotter .32 ammo than any American brand of .32 ammo and they also use guns with 3.5", 3.8", and 3.9" barrels to give it some punch.

Fiocchi .32 ACP gives 1200 fps from a 3.5" barrel and 205 ft/lbs energy. That's more energy than many .380 defense rounds have! That puts Fiocchi .32 ACP it in a class by itself among .32 ACP, and head and shoulders above USA .32 ACP ammo for guns with barrels that are 3.2" and longer. Though Corbon does theoretically make the best .32 ammo for guns with barrels that are 3" and shorter (Corbon designed its .32 for short 2.5" barrel specifically). Even so, NAA has ballistics data for its short 2.5" barreled NAA .32 that shows Fiocchi giving best performance of any brand that NAA tested (even though Fiocchi isn't designed for very short barrels).

The Fiocchi .32 has 205 ft/lbs which is the SAME energy as Fiocchi .380, and MORE energy than many USA brands of .380 defense ammo. Wow. In fact, the Fiocchi .32 from my Firestorm (Bersa) .32 is giving almost as much velocity as the .32 NAA gives from the shorter barrel .32 NAA gun. i.e. - Fiocchi .32 makes my Firestorm .32 a viable defense gun that is arguably competive with a .380 of the same barrel length, and my .32 Firestorm (single stack) has an extra round compared to a .380, and my .32 CZ83 (double stack) has 3 extra rounds (compared to a CZ83 .380).

I have heard that Fiocchi (and other European brands) are slightly longer than many American brands, and therefore the European ammo works better in the European and South American .32s than the American ammo does, but the American ammo works better in American .32s. With regard to feeding reliably. Also, the European .32 ammo, especially Fiocchi, might be to powerful for some tiny American .32 mousegun pocketguns and might not feed reliably and might even just blow a little mousegun to pieces.

i.e. - use wimpy American .32 ammo in American made .32s, and use hot European ammo in European and South American made .32s (Fiocchi being my favorite, and Sellior and Bellot my second favorite European brands).

Then, if you use a gun like the S. American cops often choose in some nations, or the Europeans did for a long time, it's even more potent due to the longer barrel (though slightly less concealable). For example: CZ83 (3.8" barrel with 15 +1 capacity), Beretta Cheetah (3.8" barrel or 4.9" depending on model#), FEG (3.5" or 3.9" barrel depending on model), Walther PPK (3.2" or 3.3" barrel - forgot which length), Walther PP (3.9" barrel).

So with barrel lengths from 3.8" to 4.9" combined with hot European .32 ammo that's designed to be optimal for 3.5"+ barrels, they were/are getting respectable stopping power from their .32s. With those barrel lengths Fiocchi .32 will give velocity from 1225 fps to 1300 fps. Yes, it sounds amazing and it is, but it's true. Test it for yourself with Fiocchi .32 SJHP if you have a .32 with a 3.8" or longer barrel. You'll be exceeding 1200 fps, possibly by as much as 100 fps.

With a 3.5" barrel (like my Bersa/Firestorm) you will get from 1150 to 1200 fps with Fiocchi 60 gr .32 SJHP. That is dam near .32 NAA performance. The .32 NAA boasts 1222 fps with a 60 gr HP, which is supposedly good defense performance, according to Sanow. Well I don't know about how good that is in a real world shooting, but I do know that it beats hell out of typical USA .32 ACP ammo that typically drives a 60 gr HP at 950 fps and the hottest brands to 1,000 fps. So the .32 NAA is clearly better than American .32 ACP. However, Fiocchi .32 ACP is giving performance very close to the .32 NAA when the barrel is 3.5". That's the same barrel length where American .32 ammo is semi-pitiful.

I think that's because USA .32 ammo is made for tiny pocket size mouse guns and therefore not loaded very hot. The European .32 ammos, especially Fiocchi are hot loaded for use in Walther PPK and PP, Bersas, CZ83s (in .32 ACP), Beretta Cheetahs, and Fegs. i.e. - European .32 ammo is made for strong guns of respectable size with decently long barrels. The PPK has the shortest barrel of all those European guns mentioned. The others listed have 3.5", 3.8", 3.9", and 4.9" barrel lengths with 3.5" and 3.8" being the most common.

Now if you you have an American .32 mousegun of some sort, I'd suggest NOT trying hot European ammo because your mousegun is probably not made for ammo that hot, and also if it's a pocket gun it's likely made for shorter .32 ammo like Winchester Silvertips or Corbon .32. In which case, the Corbon is the better choice IF your gun is strong enough for that much power. I wouldn't recommend the Fiocchi .32 for any American mousegun for strength concerns and also feeding reliability concerns. Except for a .32 NAA which is strong enough and functions well with it, and also works well with Corbon, according to things I've read about the NAA. At the NAA website their ballistic comparison chart of .32 ACP shows Fiocchi the hottest of what they tested, even from the short 2.5" NAA barrel. However, for a barrel that short, I suspect that Corbon would be as good or better.

From a longer barrel (say about 3.2"+) the Fiocchi .32 ACP SJHP ammo is in a class by itself with 40% more muzzle energy than Winchester ST or Federal HS.

With a Walther PP, Berettah Cheetah, or especially a CZ83, and some Fiocchi .32 SJHP ammo, that is a reasonably potent .32 ACP package between the barrel length, hot ammo, and high cap magazine (CZ83 is 15 + 1 and the Cheetah double stack is about the same). It would substantially exceed the .32 NAA performance from a .32 NAA gun.

With a Walther PPK, Sig 232, or Bersa/Firestorm .32 (3.2" to 3.5" barrels) the Fiocchi .32 SJHP is reasonably potent with performance approximately equal to what NAA advertises its .32 NAA to do from the NAA gun.

To put that another way, the .32 Fiocchi SJHP ammo makes a .32 ACP a viable "one shot stopping potential" competitor to a .380 of same barrel length, and the .32 ACP has an extra round in a single stack mag, or 3 extra rounds in a double stack. Though neither a .32 ACP or .380 can get up enough velocity to expand bullets and have adequate muzzle energy from barrels shorter than 3.2", IMO. Many ballistic tests have shown that. Both need a barrel that is 3.5" or longer to develope adequate velocity to have some punch. Fiocchi ammo greatly increases that punch in a .32.

I don't claim Fiocchi to be best in other calibers though. For example, in .380 I prefer Speer Gold Dot. Who makes the best ammo all depends on the caliber, the need, and the gun. I only claim that Fiocchi SJHP is the best .32 ACP for European and South American guns with barrels that are 3" or longer, and MIGHT also be the best ammo for a NAA .32 ACP. I also like Fiocchi a lot in 9mm, but I like Speer GD and Federal HS most in that caliber. No single ammo maker is best, but a given manufacturer might make the best in a given caliber.

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jocko
November 13, 2008, 07:03 AM
well it would be better than a rock but it is at the very very low end of a defense round. IMHO

Just so many other better choices out there and most cases in the same frame size .

That being said I owned (once) a kt32 but never carried it. 32 small hole, 380 bigger hole

Ur long essay seems to me to be like your trying to convert other people into the 32 land of oz, more than actually wanting feedback.

Rock
November 13, 2008, 07:11 AM
NO...

Double Naught Spy
November 13, 2008, 07:15 AM
Maybe the better question to ask is if you have enough balls to compensate if the .32 doesn't.

When you pose a question like this, you have to consider not what the potential for positive results is, but the ramifications if they don't materialize.

Mad Magyar
November 13, 2008, 07:25 AM
I have an excellent .32acp in a reliable Mauser HSc, and I also use Fiocchi ammo. But for a daily CC, I don't use it that way. It's a great B.U.G. on my person or vehicle; but I feel a .380 is about the minimum I'd go when going out....
To be honest, at one time I'd slide it in my jacket pocket when going out for milk at the local "Rob n Go"; but with the reality of car-jacking, the punks & illegals looking for prey: not anymore....:)
Just one more point. The pawnshop owners in my area tell me that many of the "gang-bangers" purchase his Jimenez pistols in .22, .25 & .32acp.; all legal of course. If I'm confronted by any of these types; I don't want to be on equal footing but have an advantage....

Rock
November 13, 2008, 07:27 AM
Maybe the better question to ask is if you have enough balls to compensate if the .32 doesn't.

When you pose a question like this, you have to consider not what the potential for positive results is, but the ramifications if they don't materialize.

Like maybe multiple assailants or a much larger person who takes it away from you when it fails and either beats your head in with it or proceeds to empty the mag in your head.

kokapelli
November 13, 2008, 08:55 AM
wbond, 1200 fps! I don't know where you got your ballistics but I think you might want to look at these 32 cal tests..........

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm

Another thing is, bullet performance in water is not relatable to how a bullet will perform in tissue.

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/fiocchi.jpgThis is the round you referred to and as you can see it did not expand when fired into gelatin and only achieved 968 fps with 125 fpe.

In the above gelatin test the Fiocchi round was clearly out performed by the Cor Bon 60 gr bullet.

The less than an inch of barrel length difference in the test gun could not possibly increase velocity by 232 fps.

AirForceShooter
November 13, 2008, 09:17 AM
With proper shot placement it's fine.
Without that it could be a .44 mag and it wouldn't help

AFS

mljdeckard
November 13, 2008, 09:32 AM
Of course, technically it's better than no gun at all. Practically, with sub-compacts available in 9mm, .357 Sig, .40, and .45 ACP/GAP, I seen no reason to hang your life on one. No matter how good the new loads are, the bigger ones will be better.

ALL PISTOL ROUNDS ARE INADEQUATE FOR PERSONAL DEFENSE. In picking the one that is ALMOST at the bottom of the list, you are talking yourself into the idea that you are 'ok' if you use it. This is not true for any pistol round, this one less than others.

Walkalong
November 13, 2008, 10:41 AM
Gosh, I hope so, I carry a .32 ACP a good bit. :uhoh:

It beats the bazooka you left at home any day.

I also carry a .22 Mag a lot. Trust me, you don't want me to shoot you 2 or 3 times with either one. :)

saltydog452
November 13, 2008, 10:43 AM
Don't know. Hope I never find out. But a 'mouse gun' at contact distance ain't awful and might cause the BG to alter his thinking a bit.

Don't know what does the job, the projectile or gas.

I'd think it'd be better than an 88 Magnum in the trunk though.

salty

1911Today
November 13, 2008, 10:50 AM
If you have to ask...

I'm no ballistics expert, but if you have ANY doubts about the efficacy of your chosen round, maybe it isn't the round that you should be using. My recommendation would be to go with tried and true rounds, like 9, .40, .45, and countless others. I personally use .45 for self defence because I know that if it is my life on the line, this round (considering good placement, and that's why we train) will stop the threat, most if not all times.

I have a friend, Eli, a LEO, that had a burglar break into his home in broad daylight while he was taking a shower. The family dog alerted him, but he only managed to get his Kel-Tec .32 backup weapon from the drawer. He fired upon the intruder, missed, but the .32 rounds they recovered from the 1/2" wooden fence in his backyard were barely sticking into the surface of the wood. When the gun was returned after the investigation, he didn't want anything to do with it, promptly sold it, and bought an XD in .45.

lazyeye
November 13, 2008, 10:56 AM
I wouldn't want to get shot by one.

But by the numbers (Evan Marshall et al) .32 lacks the probability of a good stop that larger calibers have.

For instance the teeny tiny PM9 on my hip at this very moment, that is only a few hairs larger than a .32 autoloader.

tlen
November 13, 2008, 11:35 AM
Nothing less than a 9MM for SD and/or carry; .380 ACP for a bug.

sadp40
November 13, 2008, 11:45 AM
for a lot of years. i have a Walther PP in 7.65mm German police marked. i keep it stoked with corbons and i have faith that if i do my part it would be quite enough. not to turn any stomachs but i shoot armadillos here at the house with it all the time.
those corbons do a number on them, i shot one that was huge last month and it just exploded.
do i carry it for social type work? well no. i have bigger weapons for that but would i wring my hands and cry if that was all i had? certainly not.

ggarfield965
November 13, 2008, 11:54 AM
No, 32 ACP is way too big. It will kill someone. You should be using a .25 ACP or a .22 lr. All this talk about people taking shots and then proceeding to kill you is bull. All this talk about difficult shot placement is crap. I happen to know because with a reasonably accurate airsoft gun (aka poor accuracy at best after 50 feet), I can shoot someone in the head who is running with a 6mm pistol. Another thing I have noticed is that 3-4 shots to the chest or back with a 400 fps 20 gram plastic BB sends someone screaming and diving to the ground yelping and cursing. In fact, I think a serious airsoft pistol like a 400 fps CO2 or Green Gas is a pretty good non-lethal deterrent. Just make sure it is semi or full auto :P But no, in all honesty I would feel confident with a 32 ACP in a gun fight, let alone for self defense. After all, the PPK was a favorite of Bond's for many years.

ggarfield965
November 13, 2008, 11:58 AM
Oh, and up here in WI, people just walk around with arisoft guns, swords, hunting rifles, shotguns and whatever. You can't CC here, so we just sling a good 12er on our backs and see who wants to mess with us then. Think I'm kidding? I'm not. My friend walked around a city (pop. 9,000) with a sharp 24 inch sword one day and not a single cop said anything. We shoot at eachother in the parks with airsoft guns all the time. No one cares.

krs
November 13, 2008, 12:12 PM
James Bond is a character in a FICTIONAL novel series with the same veracity as Harry Potter or "The Little Train that Could".

PRM
November 13, 2008, 12:20 PM
I'm not going to argue that bigger is not better. I would take a howitzer any day. What is practical? I love my .45 and .44 Special, but the truth is, today I am carrying a .32 Walther, and I am not the least bit worried about being out-gunned. It is a defensive weapon, hopefully I will never have to use it. However, should I have too, there are nine rounds to start with, and another 8 rounds in a spare magazine. If that doesn't terminate the threat, I seriously doubt anything bigger will work either. Over the years I have heard a number of individuals talk down this calibre - never heard anyone volunteer to be shot with it to prove their point.

mljdeckard
November 13, 2008, 12:37 PM
I'm not volunteering to get splashed with a bucket of cat urine either. Doesn't mean I will hang my life on it.

ALL handguns are inadequate. You must give yourself every possible advantage.

ashtxsniper
November 13, 2008, 12:49 PM
Who cares how hot fiocchi is the cartridge still sucks. Its great for shooting rabbits thats about it.

PRM
November 13, 2008, 12:54 PM
I'm not volunteering to get splashed with a bucket of cat urine either.

Did not mean to start a flame war - Like I said - I like bigger (.45LC/.44 SPC), just that there are some activities where a larger gun is not practical. So my options are more concealable or no gun. In that case - I don't have a problem with a smaller .32. In reality, the most dangerous place I will probably be today is the Sonic drive in - we don't have a lot of gunfights over hamburgers where I live.

ggarfield965
November 13, 2008, 01:07 PM
Lol, if 32 ACP is inadequate lets just say I am glad I live in a state where we don't concealed carry or I would worry that every other dude was packing a Desert Eagle. With that many big guns around, someone is bound to accidentally lob a big old slug through the floor and through a few people a few stories below. Not to say that it is hard to safely keep a gun on you without it ever going off, but plenty of people are idiots.

ggarfield965
November 13, 2008, 01:09 PM
And if big wounds are what you seek, maybe you need to carry a sharpened flag pole or a 2x4" and just hit your assailants in the stomach with that

mljdeckard
November 13, 2008, 01:20 PM
ggarfield, what on earth are you talking about?

ggarfield965
November 13, 2008, 01:31 PM
The zombie holocausts maybe? No, it just gets me that anyone would argue over what was enough of a gun for conceal carry. IMO any gun is enough, and a lot better than two fists. And since any individual is very unlikely to actually need to use a gun when they're on the street, than I'd say a .22 autoloading pistol is pretty good insurance, and if you want a .45 ACP than so be it. Bottom line, they're all sufficient.

Vonderek
November 13, 2008, 01:39 PM
If you load it with .32 Extreme Shock you can hunt elephant and water buffalo with it.

ashtxsniper
November 13, 2008, 01:44 PM
Different things for different people. I prefer to not be underarmed. If you want to carry your stupid airsoft, paintball gun, wizard or ninja sword, throwing stars, or a peashooter thats your choice. Your not related to Gecko45 by chance are you?

mljdeckard
November 13, 2008, 01:47 PM
NONE OF THEM ARE SUFFICIENT. All handgun rounds suck. In picking the smallest ones, you are saying, "I don't care enough about my personal safety to carry the best gun I can."

If they are unlikely to need it, then why carry at all?

If you have to shoot at someone, and all you see is the profile of their weaver stance, in a leather jacket, the last think you will think to yourself as you squeeze the trigger is: "I REALLY REALLY wish I had something bigger right now."

JImbothefiveth
November 13, 2008, 01:48 PM
and EVERY hollow point expanded beautifully and consistently.
Did it still get adequate penetration?

Bottom line, they're all sufficient.
Not true. According to Marshal and Sanow, the .22 LR only stops in one shot about 30% of the time.
A fail to stop means that it's NOT sufficient.

R.W.Dale
November 13, 2008, 02:03 PM
NONE OF THEM ARE SUFFICIENT. All handgun rounds suck. In picking the smallest ones, you are saying, "I don't care enough about my personal safety to carry the best gun I can."

If they are unlikely to need it, then why carry at all?


Handgun choice is much like choosing insurance. You buy the most coverage you expect to need any more is just added expense and more cumbersome. How much more likely are we to die or be horribly be disfigures in a car crash yet I wonder how many of these posters trashing the choice of the OP has the max medical on their auto insurance or for that matter wear seatbealts religiously.

Bottom like is that handgun choice is an assessment of risk I find it laughable what some choose to obsess over. EXAMPLE Do YOU have a fire extinguisher in your home?

I'll carry my p23 with confidence that it'll handle any situation I can realistically expect to find myself in. The rest of you guys can continue to carry your 9mm,40,45's in fear and paranoia.


If you have to shoot at someone, and all you see is the profile of their weaver stance, in a leather jacket, the last think you will think to yourself as you squeeze the trigger is: "I REALLY REALLY wish I had something bigger right now."

That's why I carry ball

ggarfield965
November 13, 2008, 02:18 PM
"Not true. According to Marshal and Sanow, the .22 LR only stops in one shot about 30% of the time.
A fail to stop means that it's NOT sufficient."

But I am not suggesting a .22 lr zip gun. I think I could squeeze off a 10 shot clip in about 2.5 seconds, or 4 shots in like 1 second. I call that 100% efficient. But, 30% stopping is treating your assailant or mugger like an enemy combatant. It is very unlikely we will be battling Arab Insurgents in our streets. Your average crook is probably not going to be too happy about taking a shot from a .22, and unless he's an axe-murderer, he will probably use his remaining resolve to run for it.

JImbothefiveth
November 13, 2008, 02:22 PM
But, 30% stopping is treating your assailant or mugger like an enemy combatant.
How?

Your average crook is probably not going to be too happy about taking a shot from a .22
But about 70% of the time, he won't be stopped.

ggarfield965
November 13, 2008, 02:22 PM
Oh, and when I pull the trigger, I will surely be thinking take "Take that sucker, pwnd". But since I don't have the option of CCing I should probably shut up and stop making people mad. Thing is, I don't think having a gun everywhere you go is necessary so I can't be entirely serious. I would, however, just like to say that if you really think you need a gun on you, any gun is pretty dang good. Except maybe a flintlock pistol or a Mexican zip gun.

mljdeckard
November 13, 2008, 02:27 PM
Beautiful. If you REALLY ARE THAT GOOD with a .22, WHY NOT TRAIN UNTIL YOU ARE THAT GOOD WITH SOMETHING BIGGER? You are rationalizing slacking on training and giving yourself all possible advantages. YOU ARE BEING LAZY.

Yes, I have a fire extinguisher. And it's one that is big enough I have a reasonable expectation it will actually put out the fire redundantly and overwhelmingly.

In calling us paranoid for carrying THE BEST PROTECTION WE CAN, you sound like the antis, saying we are paranoid for carrying at all.

hoosier8
November 13, 2008, 02:35 PM
Hmmm, didn't an 8 yr old recently shoot and kill two grown men with a 22? One wonders why a 32 wouldn't be adequate? My great grandmother used to keep an Iver & Johnson 32 revolver to shoot at possible bandidos down on the border, and nobody wanted to mess with her.

ggarfield965
November 13, 2008, 02:39 PM
hoosier8, you got it. If we can't agree on a .22, then at least we can agree.32 ACP is adequate and very dangerous. I wouldn't mess with someone with a 32 ACP. Further, if I had a .50 Desert Eagle I still wouldn't want to mess with someone with a 32 ACP. They are pretty deadly. I would even shoot deer from like sub-40 feet with a 32 ACP if I didn't have better equipped guns.

kokapelli
November 13, 2008, 02:48 PM
That 8 year old used a rifle which means at least 1400 to 1600 fps velocity. A lot different than what comes out of a pistol.

ashtxsniper
November 13, 2008, 02:57 PM
You would shoot a deer with a 32acp? I dont think I need to say anything you are doing a good job of that on your own.

jocko
November 13, 2008, 03:47 PM
german police carried 32's. HUMM didn't we kick thier asses awhile back????

mljdeckard
November 13, 2008, 04:36 PM
Danish police carried .32 PPKs for years with orders to shoot to wound, and by the time they retired them, many of them didn't even work.

JImbothefiveth
November 13, 2008, 04:41 PM
Hmmm, didn't an 8 yr old recently shoot and kill two grown men with a 22?
It took a total of 8 shots, and we are concerned with STOPPING, not killing. In the time it takes you to get off 8 shots, you could be mortally wounded.

The Lone Haranguer
November 13, 2008, 04:46 PM
There is only so much power that can be packed into the little bullet and cartridge. You are trading cartridge power for small weapon size.

mljdeckard
November 13, 2008, 04:54 PM
And that kid had them trapped in a house where they WEREN'T SHOOTING BACK.

ggarfield965
November 13, 2008, 04:54 PM
Ok, you guys have got me. I think an AK-74 without a stock is probably the safe choice, but I think I might go get a M79 grenade launcher just to be sure I can immobilize as many assailants as possible as fast as possible.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/M79_afmil.jpg
]

:scrutiny::banghead::rolleyes:

mljdeckard
November 13, 2008, 05:36 PM
To be absolutely honest, I consider my .45 to be the sidearm I will use to fight my way back to my SKS in my truck.

Vonderek
November 13, 2008, 05:53 PM
If you can fight your way back to your truck you should drive away! :)

PRM
November 13, 2008, 05:56 PM
Little hard for CC, but this is where this discussion is headed

JImbothefiveth
November 13, 2008, 06:39 PM
He starts a thread praising the .32 ACP as a self-defense round, and then the .22 LR. I'm a big .22LR fan, but I would not reccomend one for self-defense. I'm not a "magnum maniac" either. I would feel fine with 9mm hollowpoints for self defense.(Which stop with one shot 20-27 & more than .32 ACP, according to Marshal and Sanow)

springer7676
November 13, 2008, 06:46 PM
I carry a .25 ACP colt. Seven shots. I like it. It will not kill game animals. It will kill humans. I CC carry for defense against humans. I would not want to be shot with a .25 cal. I don't suspect anyone would. Especially a burglar or street attacker. It seems to me that any caliber against human targets is adequate. If you shoot straight without hesitation the target will get the message.

JImbothefiveth
November 13, 2008, 06:56 PM
It will not kill game animals. It will kill humans.
How is this?

Furthermore, the concern is with "stopping" not "killing. The attacker dying is something I see as a bad thing, I just want to save my own life or other's lives in that situation, not make sure the attacker dies. With the .25 ACP, there's a good chance of me not being able to save my life.

mljdeckard
November 13, 2008, 07:41 PM
It MAY kill humans. A well-placed needle MAY kill someone. Again, no pistol round is good for self-defense. .25 is dead freakin' last, period. If you are shooting someone at a weird angle, wearing leather, it is unlikely to penetrate AT ALL. When I shoot someone, I don't want their response to be, "OW!! That HURT!!" I want it to do more than leave a welt.

mljdeckard
November 13, 2008, 07:43 PM
The reason I keep a rifle in my truck is that a plan is incomplete without one. In the real world, you may or may not get far enough to get to it and still need it, but if you don't have it, you don't have the option. A handgun is what you use to fight your way back to the long gun you never should have put down in the first place. It makes little sense to not have one at all.

Marlin 45 carbine
November 13, 2008, 07:53 PM
when very lightly dressed (i.e. shorts, t-shirt and such) I carry in a pocket a Beretta .32acp filled with hot handloads. FMJ's.
I've shot it enough into old phone books and catalogs to know I don't want to be shot with it.

RippinSVT
November 14, 2008, 12:17 AM
ggarfield, have you ever actually fired a real gun? Your posts seem sophomoric and have little to no logic. You know what happens when you shoot somebody with a pee-wee round and you don't hit them just right? They still have a chance to do something, not to mention sue the **** out of you (with the current liberalized courts). Dead men don't talk. If you are going through the trouble of getting a ccw permit and buying a gun, why not just buy "enough" gun? There have been time when I had to shoot SQUIRRELS multiple times with .22LR to kill 'em, so I highly doubt an adrenaline-charged assailant is going to be particularly phased by the firearms equivalent of being poked with a pencil.

GaryP
November 14, 2008, 01:31 AM
Yes, At legitimate CC distances if you do yor part.

:evil:

usp9
November 14, 2008, 07:25 AM
Can a .32 ACP CC gun have enough balls to be a respectable defense gun?

Of course a .32acp can be a respectable self defence round and has been for 100 years. Nothing has changed.

gazpacho
November 14, 2008, 07:58 AM
wbond

FWIW Kel-Tec tests their P32 mouegun with Sellier & Bellot FMJ

Many S Americans and Europeans are happy with their 7.65mm Brownings and 9mm Browning Shorts because their governments dont trust them with 9mm Parabellums, not to mention 45acps.

The CZ-83 in 7.65 Browning is a fine weapon. I own one and recommend it to the recoil intollerant. However, it is about the size of a Glock 27. Because (at this point) my government does not fear me, I may own this firearm, and carry it on my person, concealed.

If I should desire a smaller firearm, or perhaps one with a more powerful cartridge, I could purchase and carry the excellent S&W 640.

The handgun is a compromize firearm, in relation to the rifle. The 7.65mm Browning (32acp) is a compromize to the 9mm Parabellum, which is a compromize 45acp, which is a compromize choice to the 44 magnum. The essence of sidearm choice is deciding how much you are willing to compromize. Given that there are a number of handguns comparable in size to your Firestorm that chamber 9mm and 40s&w, the argument for 32acp in that platform size is moot, unless you are restricted by law or life.

If my little argument doesn't sway you, I recommend reading up on the FBI 1986 Miami shootout. I submit to you that if the FBI agents were armed with 32acp handguns, as were many european police officers, the results would have been catastrophic for the FBI.

kokapelli
November 14, 2008, 08:33 AM
"FWIW Kel-Tec tests their P32 mouegun with Sellier & Bellot FMJ"

What does that have to do with anything! I'm sure that if KelTec does indeed use Sellier & Bellot ammo for testing it's about cost.

I too used to use Sellier & Bellot ammo at the range until I got tired of having at least one or two rounds in every box fail to fire. Sellier & Bellot is notorious for their hard primers that too often have rounds that fail to fire in many guns.

ggarfield965
November 14, 2008, 08:48 AM
RippinSVT, what are you talking about? I have shot .22lr extensively and let me tell you that being hit in the torso with one would not be much fun. A pencil wound? I'll buy that. If the pencil is stainless steel and I stab someone with it as hard as I can then yes. And whoever said something about bullets that cause welts should go play some combat sports in light caliber seeing as that is all they are good for :P

jackstinson
November 14, 2008, 09:40 AM
S&B is one of those YMMV cases. Some K-T owners have reported hard primers and I'm sure it happens, but I've never personally had an S&B round fail to ignite first time every time...from .25acp through 9mm in many different pistols (including a 1999 K-T P32 and a 2007 P3AT). I must just be lucky? ;)
I think the point of mentioning Kel-Tec using S&B was that it has ballistics about the same as the OP's favorite Fiocchi. Both are a hotter than most American .32acp's. But the .32acp out of a Firestorm's 3.5" barrel has a fair bit more FPE than out of a Kel-Tec P32's short barrel. One inch is a lot in that context.

As for James Bond? He started out with 3 guns: a Beretta .25acp (it could not have been a 950, it was likely a Model 418) with the grips removed (the grip frame taped) in his shoulder rig, but he also had a "sawn barrel .38" under his pillow and a .45 in the Bentley's glovebox. It wasn't until like the 6th book when they took his beloved .25 Beretta and gave him a .32 PPK AND a .38 S&W Airweight. The movies are terribly out of order.
And yep, I do sometimes carry a .32acp myself.

jon_in_wv
November 14, 2008, 10:39 AM
Bigger is always better but a well trained, well practiced man with a warrior mindset and a .32 is more dangerous that 90% of shooters with a 45 who are neither good shots nor inclined to shoot.

kokapelli
November 14, 2008, 10:46 AM
Bigger is always better but a well trained, well practiced man with a warrior mindset and a .32 is more dangerous that 90% of shooters with a 45 who are neither good shots nor inclined to shoot.

I have a different experience with 45 shooters. I personally do not have a 45, but the 45 shooters at the range I belong to are mostly very good shooters.

I would say that overall most of the 45 shooters at my range are significantly better than the none 45 shooters shooters.

Jim Watson
November 14, 2008, 10:51 AM
My Kel Tec .32 goes in my pocket when I can't be bothered to "saddle up." My Colt .32 stays home because if I am going to wear a holster and carry a steel gun it is going to be a bigger caliber.

IMTHDUKE
November 14, 2008, 01:44 PM
Ok....that's why I read these boards...so I know what is best for everyone, anywhere, anytime to do. So I am now altering my carry patterns.........

I use to CCW this one little friend.....
http://photos.gafana.com/photos/1056252030996566857796.share.jpg

After reading half of the post, I am going to this bad boy....
http://photos.gafana.com/photos/1886252860996549373998.share.jpg

After readin more I do feel under guned considering the neighborhood and all, so I am goin to this fire eater....
http://photos.gafana.com/photos/0316252250000062535500.share.jpg

Can someone suggest a good holster? It keeps printing when I am in the mall:D

kokapelli
November 14, 2008, 01:48 PM
You must have long arms to be able to pull that baby out of your pocket:)

http://photos.gafana.com/photos/0316252250000062535500.share.jpg

jocko
November 14, 2008, 02:19 PM
does that thing shoot 22 shorts or just 22 long rifle bullets:neener::neener:

kokapelli
November 14, 2008, 02:30 PM
I don't think my daughter could handle that one, but she does handle this 50 cal ok.

http://4jer.250free.com/temp/cindy_50.jpg

Phil DeGraves
November 14, 2008, 02:32 PM
The .32 has been used as a service round for European Police for years. It is capable of killing or stopping a human being under the right circumstances.
Are there better guns/cartridges?
Yes.
Is it better than a .25, or a rock?
Yes.
If that is all I had, I'd carry it. But since it isn't, I'd prefer a minimum of a .38 caliber and more than one at that.

ggarfield965
November 14, 2008, 02:33 PM
Last time I post in this board I promise. But just for the record since I have annoyed the hell out of a few of you I can tell, my standing up for the .22lr and .32 ACP was simple on the basis that they were adequate to stop an assailant or provide an acceptable level of insurance. I do not think the .22LR is ideal, sufficient yes, but barely. I think the .32 ACP is fairly good for CC. This said, if I was going to actually CC and bother to get a compact handgun I would almost certainly go with a 9mm and it would probably be a P239. I still think .44 Mags are a stupid gun to CC, but that's just my opinion. I hope I didn't piss too many people off. Cheers.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/SIG-P239-p1030047.jpg

KBintheSLC
November 14, 2008, 02:37 PM
Typical velocities are 900 to 1000 fps for 60 grain hollow point .32 ACP American defense ammo. That is pitiful. No wonder most US Citizens think the .32 ACP is wimpy and the .380 much better.

It sounds pitiful, but in the real world, there is little statistical difference in the effectiveness of the two. Both are wimpy rounds. However, I am happy with my .32 for most situations. Defensive shooting is much different than combat for the most part. Most common criminals are cowards, and a couple of rounds of .32 to the chest will likely stop the attack.
Now dealing with psychopaths is a different story. For them, I prefer a high cap 9mm or my shotgun.

ggarfield965
November 14, 2008, 02:45 PM
(oops, I lied)

If it's psychopaths on the loose we're talking, I prefer the old .303 Enfield Mark V. It's action is remarkably fast for a bolt and it's a pretty good argument against life for man and beast alike. They used to use that round in machine guns on bomber planes in WWII. For some reason it has a louder report than a WIN 70 in .30-06. Huzzah!

R.W.Dale
November 14, 2008, 02:45 PM
If my little argument doesn't sway you, I recommend reading up on the FBI 1986 Miami shootout. I submit to you that if the FBI agents were armed with 32acp handguns, as were many european police officers, the results would have been catastrophic for the FBI.

DO WHAT? Do you even know what happened in that incident? The outcome couldn't have possibly been more catistropic for the FBI. If anything this serves to point out how inadequate all handguns are when faced with a determined adversary armed with REAL weapons.

Hell if anything they FBI agents might have made a better showing of themselves if they had been armed with .32's that had a higher cap and quicker reload time than their snub nosed 38's

IMTHDUKE
November 14, 2008, 02:52 PM
I would almost certainly go with a 9mm and it would probably be a P239.
I'm goin go with that in a different flavor...like a 40cal below....
http://photos.gafana.com/photos/1756252770996508348898.share.jpg

If I wanna drop back to a 9...I wanna size down also...
http://photos.gafana.com/photos/0486252070996520803939.share.jpg
Again, just my humble, but extremely accurate opinion....
God speed and party on....

nuffsaid
November 14, 2008, 04:12 PM
I have heard of the .22 killing would be burglers and other bad guys. But in the owrds of my hero and handgun instructor, " Carry the most powerful round that you can accuratly and comfortably shot"

mljdeckard
November 14, 2008, 04:28 PM
Duke is illustrating this perfectly.

A LOT has changed in the hundred years that people originally started carrying the .32. Back than, if for some reason you HAD to carry a very small concealable gun, (When again, I doubt any of you NEED a gun that small, you are just unwilling to adjust your lifestyle and wardrobe for the most important piece of equipment you can carry, and you think being a teeny bit more comfortable is more important than being alive,) it was the only choice, a very small caliber handgun. THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE. There are MANY compact and subcompact options in many brands which are much more likely to stop the actions of the person you are shooting at.

And yes, there are many accounts of .25 failing to penetrate clothing, skin, and bone. Especially various combinations of the three. If you ever have to try to put someone down, with their side to you, weird angle, thick clothing, your chance of doing anything other than making them mad is pretty much zero. I don't PLAY with guns at all, but if you could somehow envision a situation where I were forced to pick a gun to get shot with and hope for the best, it would absolutely be a .25 acp, from a 1-2" barrel, wearing a leather biker jacket and a sweater. It's a gun, but it's by far the WORST gun that exists.

For the third time in this thread: ALL PISTOL ROUNDS ARE INADEQUATE FOR SELF-DEFENSE. You need to give yourself every possible advantage. In picking the worst pistol rounds you can, you are saying that you are willing to carry a gun and kill someone, but not do everything you can to save your life. It just doesn't make sense. And again, the last thing you will think before you squeeze the trigger on that Jennings at a charging bad guy; "I really REALLY wish I had ANY gun besides this one at this moment."

Phil DeGraves
November 14, 2008, 05:23 PM
And again, the last thing you will think before you squeeze the trigger on that Jennings at a charging bad guy; "I really REALLY wish I had ANY gun besides this one at this moment."


+1 on that. Jim Cirillo said that anytime you get into a gunfight you will ALWAYS wish you had something bigger with more bullets. As comfortable and confident as we are when carrying our concealed guns around, when faced with a real defensive situation, they all seem paltry and inadequate.

Neo-Luddite
November 14, 2008, 05:30 PM
Underpowered, sure---but it's all relative.

I'm very fond of my Colt 1903 Pocket for sentimental reasons and because it is accurate, tight and reliable-----and it's just plain classy and elegant.

mbt2001
November 14, 2008, 05:45 PM
...there are many accounts of .25 failing to penetrate clothing, skin, and bone.

This is as untrue a statement as I have read on this board. Bullets "bouncing off" of things is a function of angle, nothing more. No one would say this about a .22, but when said about the .25 it is believed. Yes yes, it is a small round, but it isn't as useless as people claim. It has racked up a sizable body count.

In Europe, the .32 and .380 were once standard issue and thought to be adequate for the task of police and military. Human physiology hasn't changed. What has changed, is the MAGNUM craze that recently infected hunters has transitioned to all shooters.

I agree that you should carry a bigger gun where possible, but Decker, you are welcome to come visit me in Texas in August... I would love to see you trying to lug a 32. oz 5" gun or even a 22 oz 3" gun in 100 degree / 90% humidity. You can't wear enough clothes to cover it and if you do, heat stroke is a real possibility.

Jim Wilson and other gun "fighters" have said that Center Mass hits stop gun fights. The newest toy doesn't.

mljdeckard
November 14, 2008, 06:27 PM
It's VERY true, and VERY believeable. It has terrible velocity and ballistic coefficient.

When I was a teenager, one of my less intelligent friends had TWO NDs with one. I was not present, but he called me to help him out. one penetrated one layer of sheetrock from across the room. It stopped in the second layer from pretty much a head-on angle 20 feet away. The second time, he put one through the door of the glovebox in his old Pontiac. I found it in the glovebox. (He's still alive, but no longer allowed to posess a firearm.) We used to shoot it a lot, at logs, rocks, etc. It was unpredictable, and it NEVER penetrated very far. We frequently found fragments and whole bullets near the targets which ricocheted a short distance.

I have a friend who was a biker/bail bondsman/skip tracer when I was in high school. After one wild weekend, he showed us his back and shoulder and his jacket. Two small nasty bruises, on his back and shoulder. One of the bruises had some torn skin around it. He was picking up a jumper, when the guy's old lady ran out of the trailer and shot at him as he was getting into his van. He drove away as fast as he could, because he thought he was wounded. When he locked the guy up and went to an ER, they offered him stitches, and he refused. He showed us one .25 slug he found in the van afterwards near the driver's seat. He couldn't find the other two. (One hit the driver's side window.) One long, rough hole in the jacket. (He retired shortly thereafter.) I have taken classes from more than one cop who saw a .25 hit that did not penetrate heavy clothing.

It absolutely IS all about angles. And if you are shooting at someone with heavy clothing, at a bad angle, smaller calibers are much less likely to penetrate.

And again, even if you really think you need a very small gun, there are numerous options in different brands in full-size calibers that are much more effective, and highly concealable. Last summer I went to El Paso and hunted javelina with my little brother. I carried a rifle, wore full-covered clothes, and concealed a full-size 1911 the whole time. Maybe you just can't take the heat.

Vonderek
November 14, 2008, 06:39 PM
Human physiology hasn't changed.
Have to disagree on that. Human physiology has changed quite a bit. 100 years ago the average male in this country was about 5'7" and maybe 130-140 lbs. Nowadays you can add about 50 lbs to that. Just 20 years ago it was rare to see a 300 lb person. Now you see them everyday. Years ago .32 ACP probably was deemed more effective than it is today because you didn't have as much fat or muscle to penetrate. I have no statistics to back up this claim but it seems like a plausible theory.

IMTHDUKE
November 14, 2008, 06:59 PM
mljdeckard, good info...solid info....thanks.

PRM
November 14, 2008, 07:25 PM
I don't carry a .25, personally never saw the benefit when larger calibres come in the same size firearm. Having said that, I worked a suicide several years back where the deceased used a .25 Baby Browning. The FMJ round passed completely through his head, the side of the high backed chair he was sitting in, and lodged in the wall next to it. While it would be far from the best choice for defense - it will kill a person.

Far as .32s, that issue has been beat to death on this and other forums. Seecamp, NAA, Kel-Tec, Beretta, Walther and vintage Colts just to name a few have their followings, and when you get down to it its all personal preference.

jjohnson
November 14, 2008, 09:01 PM
Sorry. "NO" is the answer, unless you're defending yourself against hamsters, and then, you'd have to rely on careful shot placement and a bit of luck.:scrutiny:

I've shot a godalmightyplenty bunch of ammo in the last 45 years, small and large, and I think, regardless how you measure (wound channel, hydrostatic shock, kinetic energy, whatever) "Big" is "Better." :D And velocity helps, as does good bullet design.

The 32 is lacking in every measurement outside of concealability. I like the .40 as a baseline unless you're packing a .357 with good hollowpoints. I grudginly accept a .380 with good hollowpoints only because I have a Makarov in .380 and that pistol is handy/concealable/accurate/reliable beyond all expectations.:what:

Any .44 or .45 suits me much better, revolver or auto, but sorry, if I had to carry a 32 to protect myself, I think I'd also be carrying a club or nunchucks.

1SOW
November 14, 2008, 10:34 PM
If you use a .22 it would be cheaper to practice with. Use a 5"+ barrel, Stingers or Yellowjackets, very careful placement, close range and empty the gun.
OK, I'm being snotty, but I watched a good shooter shoot a 3.5" 38cal
revolver and hit steel poppers that 9mm knocks down easily. The bullets literally bounced off and didn't knock down the poppers.
I know! I know! Load up the .38 (or .32) etc etc and it will do better. The 9mms that easily knocked down the poppers were subsonic target ammo.

jon_in_wv
November 14, 2008, 10:47 PM
Kokapelli, I was referring to shooters in general not just 45 shooters. The caliber of the weapon has little to do with the ability of the shooter to shoot well. Nor does it determine the will and mindset of the person wielding the weapon. It doesn't matter what a person carries if he has never prepared himself for the possibility of using it. Just going to the range once in a while doesn't prepare a person to pull the trigger on someone else.
Also, its been my experience that most people don't shoot nearly as well as they think they do either.

gazpacho
November 15, 2008, 03:59 AM
Krochus

I do have some familiarity with the FBI 1986 Miami Shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout). As it was, 2 badguys died, 2 agents died and 5 were wounded. Most catastrophic would 8 agents dead, and 2 badguys surviving and killing further people.

My point was, going back to the OP, if the agents were armed with 32acp handguns, instead of 9mm double stacks (S&W 459), 357s loaded with 38sp and a 12g shotgun, the most catastrophic case might have actually happened.

(Yeah, yeah, I know Wikipedia isn't the best source, but in this case it's good enough for the discussion.)

Mach2
November 15, 2008, 04:17 AM
MBT2001 said:

In Europe, the .32 and .380 were once standard issue and thought to be adequate for the task of police and military

Mach2 replies:

Dos anybody have a clue why the 9x18 Makarov has gone out of style in Europe? It is my favorit round. I thought it was the best personal defense ammo ever made. Not to big and definately not too small.

regal
November 15, 2008, 05:51 AM
If we are going to shoot someone in SD and not go to prison, it will be at very close range.

At 10 feet do you honestly think you are that bad a shot that you can't stop someone with 7 shots from a Keltec P-32 ?

I can unload 7 shots from a P-32 in about a third the time it takes to do the same with a PF-9.

I am safer carrying a P-32 than any other <15 oz handgun in existance.

In comparison to the bigger heavier guns yes the P-32 loses, but things are not that bad where I do business to warrant a change in lifestyle (carrying 1.5 pounds of steel.)

RX-178
November 15, 2008, 06:13 AM
Your opening question is an extremely subjective one.

First, do you already own a .32 pistol? Have you practiced with it? Are you comfortable operating it and carrying it? Is it easy to hit the target with?

If the answer to those questions is 'yes', then your .32 pistol is a perfectly adequate defense gun, much moreso than a large caliber pistol that you are NOT comfortable with, have NOT practiced with, and let's not forget, is going to cost you a couple hundred dollars.

If you DON'T already have this weapon, I would suggest a larger caliber handgun, but first and foremost, you need to find one you are comfortable using. Odds are, you will find a larger handgun to be MORE comfortable, and easier to operate.

Use the hardware to match your software, and learn to use the gun that you've got.

saturno_v
November 16, 2008, 01:36 AM
Wbond

To annswer to your very long post (which sound a bit like an advertisement for Fiocchi....) with only one word..

Why???

Today you have several pocketable choices in full power calibers and some are rather inexpensive, +P rated and very reliable....Bersa Thunder Compact, Kel-Tec P-11 among them.

I carry regularly a P-11 in my pocket with a flush 12 round magazine...use a +P ammo and you can get over 400 ft/lb at the muzzle with a 115 gr bullet (well a bit less because you have a 3 inch barrel...but you get the point) ....that is a pocket powerhouse.

On top of that, consider the cost of ammunition...32 ACP ammo cost significantly more than 9 mm on average in the US...

Guys for your information...

32 ACP were EXTREMELY uncommon among police forces in Europe....some local small city police forces but not on a national level or in the military.

Usually, the lowest they did go in the old continent in the past is 380 auto....but 9 mm were the vast majority and nowdays (since more than 25 years) no national police force of military carry anything less than 9 mm.

In Italy, the military and police already used the Beretta 92 wonder nine when the vast majority of police forces in USA used 38 Super or 357 Mag wheelguns....talking abut firepower.....

JR47
November 16, 2008, 09:39 AM
32 ACP were EXTREMELY uncommon among police forces in Europe....some local small city police forces but not on a national level or in the military.

Now, I can understand the chest-beating of the uber-men who feel that they're going to have to stop 300 pound, drug-crazed, weight-lifters, and how they would disdain anything smaller than their chosen super death-ray caliber. However, the above statement is simply too wrong to ever have been posted by an adult.

The Italian Navy and Air Force of WWII issued the Model 1931/34 Beretta in .32 ACP. Multiple departments of the German government issued the Walther PP series in .32 ACP for Police and Security work.

The Czech Vz50, and the improved Vz70, were both chambered in .32 ACP for the national Police Force.

The Vz61 Skorpion was a machine pistol in .32 ACP that was issue to some units of the Czech military.

Belgian FN Model 1910 and 1922 pistols were used by Belgian Police, and by several Scandinavian Police Forces.

The French Army issued the Spanish Ruby pistol in the hundreds of thousands during WWI. Caliber? Why, .32 ACP.

The first NYPD issue pistol was the caliber S&W .32, a cartridge that makes the .32 ACP look strong.

The 1100 fps of the Fiocchi 32 APHP loading comes from here:

http://www.fiocchiusa.com/cat_centerfire.html

These threads seem to show only the intolerance, and stratification, of those who have chosen to carry "this", and anything else "is beneath consideration". After all, just like this, it's only an opinion, and we all know what portion of the anatomy they're like.

There are entire areas of the country where CCW isn't available to the average person. There are also areas where weather precludes some choices. Telling someone to "dress around" a gun, or to buy something else, no matter their finances, is advice that will be ignored.

Anecdotal stories are also useless. Remember, Marshall & Sanow had their information denigrated because of the lack of repeatable, scientific, results. Many of the posters here pile onto them regularly. Yet, they also supply the "my friend" stories, or the " I remember" tales of failures of various rounds on hostile trees, sheet-metal, or the mythical 300 pound, drug-crazed, weight-lifters. So, let me add in one.

In 1975, a co-worker was working part-time in Fels Point, Maryland. A part of Baltimore known for it's summer activities, and a plethora of bars and restaurants. He had one of the limited number of Maryland CCW permits issued by the MSP. As a manager, he made the night drop from the restaurant he worked in. He was accompanied by a uniformed Baltimore City Police Officer. As they approached the bank in their cars, he thought that he saw some movement near the Night Deposit Box. He asked the Officer to check, and remained in his car. The officer was taken under fire as he approached the building. At the same time, my friend was blocked by another vehicle, and the perp appeared from the driver's side, and demanded the money. My buddy was armed with a Savage Model 1910, in .32 ACP. He opened fire, hit the perp twice from about 12' away, and dropped him. The assailant was returning fire with a stolen Model 19 S&W.

Responding officers found a dead young man, with an armed robbery rap sheet, and captured a wounded man, another armed robbery "expert" that the cop had nicked. All in all, a satisfactory outcome. Does that mean that the .32 ACP is a killer in any circumstance? Of course not. Then again, it was in this case, and he, my friend and co-worker, hasn't had another incident these 33+ years later. He'll probably die an old man, never having to defend himself with ANY caliber again.

Use what you practice with. Nothing is a guaranteed winner. I've transported fighting subjects to the hospital with 5 rounds of 9mm +P+, from Beretta Model 92 pistols, to the chest and abdomen. They lived to stand trial. I've also cleared scenes with the ME for a 6' 2" 200 pound man that was shot ONCE with a .22 lr, from a 2" RG pistol, in the abdomen. :scrutiny:

kokapelli
November 16, 2008, 10:08 AM
Sure 32cal pistols were used by law enforcement, but that was before compact 9mm pistols were available.

This has turned into a ridiculous argument. A 9mm will always be better than a 32 cal, but if you can't carry a 9mm for one reason or other, at least carry a 380.

Z71
November 16, 2008, 11:11 AM
The average handgun just ain't the deathray it is represented as on TV and peoples minds.

People worry about the caliber of their carry handgun, but hunt deer with nothing less than a hard hitting high powered rifle?

A more rational approach might be to hunt game with a .32 auto, and carry a .30-06 rifle for serious "human" situations.

I've done quite a bit of small game hunting with the various handguns and pistol cartridges. Based on shooting small creatures, none of the handgun cartridges are all that whoopee until you get to the .357 mag. Even the mighty .45 acp isn't much better at stopping cottontails than a .32 auto.

The .357 mag, .44 mag, and the bigger bruisers are powerful enough to be truely servicable killers. Most of the rest are just "hole pokers"! Some punch a small hole in the target, others poke a bigger hole in the target.

My opinion is that a .22 LR in a pistol is about as lethal as the average centerfire pistol caliber for small game. I've never shot any people, but I would think the deer rifle calibers would be more suited to the task.

Really it's a seriously moot point. just get yourself a quality handgun in a popular caliber(.32acp would be fine), shoot it enough to be competent in hitting your mark, and don't worry about it.

If you know your going to a firefight, then take the .30-06 rifle along. Your opposition will be surprised!

saturno_v
November 16, 2008, 01:51 PM
JR47

Have you ever been in the Italian service??

Well I did in the 80's and the Beretta 34 were a distant memory in the Navy, Army or Air Forces.

The Beretta 1934 was .380 Auto (9 mm Corto is the Italian denomination fo the caliber), never been a 32 ACP.

The Beretta 1931 (.32 ACP) was issued to SOME department of the navy (mainly to cover shortages of the 1934) up to the mid 40's

My father was an officer in the Italian Air Forces in the 50's....sidearm?? Beretta 1934 .380 ACP.

2 of my uncles were officers in WWII (Army and Navy).....Beretta 1934 .380 ACP

Some departments of the Italian Royal Navy (Italy before 1946 was a monarchy and that was the official definition of the navy: "Regia Marina") before WWII even used the Mauser "broom handle" in 9 mm para or 7.63 Mauser I don't recall.

The examples you mentioned still support my statement...the 32 ACP was adopted in SOME cases, SOME forces and SOME countries.

Europe is a big continent with more than 25 countries you know....

And however has been DECADES since the 32 ACP has been considered an adequate service sidearm. And when it was is because of the convenient size and occultability, not because was really considerated up to the task, power wise.

Maybe, I repeat, maybe in some small village in Italy or elsewhere the local 4-5 men police force still uses the caliber.....it doesn't make it common.

kokapelli
November 16, 2008, 02:03 PM
saturno_v, thanks for clearing that up. The internet is great but we need to be careful because we get so much misinformation over it.

I kind of figured what you posted was the case but I had no way of proving it.

saturno_v
November 16, 2008, 03:57 PM
I forgot to add...

My grandfather fought in WWI in the Carabinieri force (a corp of the italian army that serves as MP, regular combat in war time and civilian police force as well, alongside the regular Police) and his service sidearm was a Beretta 1915 in 9 mm Glisenti caliber.
Before that, he was issued a big service revolver in a large caliber (10.4 mm Ordinanza Italiana)

The 9 mm Glisenti was similar to the 9 mm Parabellum but a bit less powerful, still significantly more potent than the .380 Auto and the 32 ACP.

JR47
November 16, 2008, 05:08 PM
32 ACP were EXTREMELY uncommon among police forces in Europe....some local small city police forces but not on a national level or in the military.

This is your quote. There is nothing in the wording of your statement that indicates current use, or there's a problem with the understanding of the word WERE. The entry statement that you responded to also mentioned that the European Police carried the .32 ACP in the past.

The usage of the Model 1931 and 1934 was taken from Jane's "Guns Recognition Guide", 1996. Pages 27-28. The Italian Air Force and Navy used the .32 ACP pistol. They were issue standards even before the Second World War began. You just skipped over the Czech pistols from the 1950's-1960's, the German Handguns of the Nazi Republic, and the Belgian and French .32 ACP guns of the WWI era.

What you say you mean isn't what you wrote.

All aside, it IS good to vet the information posted by those on the Internet. Some people have problems.

saturno_v
November 16, 2008, 05:50 PM
JR47

The .32 ACP handguns were not the MAIN equipment for the italian Navy and Air Foce, regardless of what the Gun Recognition Guide may say.
Yes they were issued to some departments and in certain circumstances (shortage of Beretta 1934 mainly, because of the WWII readiness effort).
So the Guide is somewhat and factually correct but, again, they were not the main standard issue. Guaranteed.
I talk not because of internet info but for personal experiences once I had 3 people in my family fighting in WWII on the Italian side and we have a military historian.

The Walther PP and PPK main caliber is the .380 auto not the 32 ACP.

Maybe , regarding the 32 ACP, I should not have said extremely rare but just rare as standard official issue.

You forgot the countless European handguns from every nation chambered in 9 mm Parabellum or in .380 ACP....who you think was using them?? The Japanese or in Africa??

Yes, You should not believe in everything you read on the internet or in every book...

glockdriver
November 16, 2008, 07:01 PM
North American Arms sure sells a lot of " .22 & .32 caliber mouse guns"
Had a news story here few years ago of a guy who had to fall back to his NAA .22 because he couldnt get to his 9mm under his winter coat. Results ? one bads guy down .one wounded
To each his own in my book

gripper
November 16, 2008, 07:23 PM
Hopefully this will not cause a "thread drift" or "discussion creep " ; but do any here recall something from the old Makarov.com website detailing a proprietary catridge from NAA??IIRC;it was either a .380 or a 9X18 necked down to accommodate a .32 auto bullet...when fired frm a 4 inchconversion barrel on a Makarov it was fairly impressive;sort of a short cased Tokarev that couldalso be a "pocket rocket"...

kokapelli
November 16, 2008, 07:34 PM
It was a 380 necked down to 32 cal.
1200fps from a guardian pistol.
Manufactured by CorBon and very expensive!

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/HG32_0924D.jpg

By the way it only has a 60gr bullet. Makes me wonder what the advantage be? With a 380 in gr, probably not that much slower and a bigger hole.

priler
November 16, 2008, 07:39 PM
well,geez,people have died from getting shot with smaller calibers than that but the problem is your supposed to plan for the worst not the best,so i say definitely not.

skoro
November 17, 2008, 09:16 AM
Sure it can, if the shooter can place those little .32 bullets where they belong. Even if he/she can't, I think there are few circumstances where a mugger, robber, or other goblin is going to stick around to shoot it out with an armed opponent, regardless of caliber.

If I had a choice on what handgun to bring to a shootout, it'd be a hi-cap 45 auto. But realistically, they're a bear to carry and even worse to conceal except in a cold winter climate. Here in Texas, we never get that kind of winter. A light jacket is all I ever use and only that on occasion. The weather and associated clothing pretty much dictate compact pocket carry. And a .38 snubby or a .32ACP fill that need. Besides, I figure the probability of me ever needing to fire a shot in anger approaches zero. If that situation arises, I'll have something to defend myself with that in all likelihood will make the goblin stop, one way or another. I can also carry a bigger weapon in my vehicle, if need be.

For those who feel underarmed with a .32 or a .38, by all means carry a bigger more powerful weapon. Each of us needs to find his comfort zone for concealed carry.

JR47
November 17, 2008, 10:46 AM
The .32 ACP handguns were not the MAIN equipment for the italian Navy and Air Foce, regardless of what the Gun Recognition Guide may say.
Yes they were issued to some departments and in certain circumstances (shortage of Beretta 1934 mainly, because of the WWII readiness effort).
So the Guide is somewhat and factually correct but, again, they were not the main standard issue. Guaranteed.
I talk not because of internet info but for personal experiences once I had 3 people in my family fighting in WWII on the Italian side and we have a military historian.
The Walther PP and PPK main caliber is the .380 auto not the 32 ACP.
Maybe , regarding the 32 ACP, I should not have said extremely rare but just rare as standard official issue.
You forgot the countless European handguns from every nation chambered in 9 mm Parabellum or in .380 ACP....who you think was using them?? The Japanese or in Africa??
Yes, You should not believe in everything you read on the internet or in every book...

The Italian Air Force issued the .32 ACP by choice, as did the Navy.

In the early 1930s, the Italian army was impressed by the Walther PP pistol. Beretta did not want to lose a big military contract to their German competitor and designed the M1934 for the Italian Army which accepted it in 1937. This model was followed by the M1935, which was similar to the M1934 in most respects, except that it fired a .32 ACP (7.65 mm Browning) cartridge.

The German POLICE, whom you were addressing in the first place, used the Model 1934 Mauser, the Walther Model PP and PPk, all in .32 ACP. The German military also used large numbers of the Mauser HsC, the Walther PP and PPk. The German ARMY also issued large numbers of the Czech Vz-27, in .32 ACP. Source, the 2007 Standard catalog of Firearms by Dan Shideler.

The Glisenti pistol that you mentioned was accepted first, in 1906, by the Italian Army, in 7.65mm (.32ACP0, then in 1910 in 9mm Glisenti. They had been declared obsolete by the Italian Army in the 1930's, and replaced with the .32 ACP and .380 ACP pistols. They were used, along with even older Bodeo revolvers, as the war went poorly for them in Africa, and everywhere else. (2007 Standard Catalog of Firearms, page 511)

Also in the same book, page 460, "This model was adopted by police forces around the world." Caliber .32 ACP, Model 1910 New Model FN.

Again, on Page 993. "Pistol Sauer Model 1913, Police variations. These will be of the standard German Commercial configuration but nearly always having the Zusatzsicherung added to the pistol. Police used both calibers 6.35 and 7.65, but the 7.65 was predominant.

Then, they speak of the Imperial Military variations, Paramilitary marked pistols of the 1932-35 period, the Norwegian Police contracts of POST WWII.

On page 995, the 1930 variation, in 7.65mm (32ACP0 was used by the Dutch Police, the Amsterdam Police, the Dutch Navy, the S.M.N., and the Department of Finance.

Page 996, the Sauer Behorden Model, in 7.65mm. Police Model two Sunburst Acceptance models, and a Diamond in Sunburst Police Acceptance Model.

Page 997, Model 38H, in 7.65mm, two different Police Acceptance versions, and two separate military acceptance versions.

For pistols chambered in .32 ACP to be so "rare" in Police and military use, there sure are a lot of them cataloged and identified for collectors. I even left OUT the ones categorized as Rare.

The Walther PP and PPK main caliber is the .380 auto not the 32 ACP.

Today, it's the main chambering. However, it was developed around the 7.65mm cartridge, and saw service in Europe mainly in that caliber. The 9x17 has always been mostly an American caliber.

My father, and all but one younger brother also fought in WWII. They do not presuppose to know what weapons, Model numbers, or calibers, were in use anywhere but in the theaters they fought in. He's still alive.

You forgot the countless European handguns from every nation chambered in 9 mm Parabellum or in .380 ACP....who you think was using them?? The Japanese or in Africa??

Really? The German's used the .32 and 9mm. The Italians used the .32, .380, 9mm Glisenti, and the 10.4 mm Bodeo Model 1889 revolver.

Russia used the 7.62x25. France used the 7.65 French Long. Spain used the 9mm Bergman. Britain issued the Webley and Enfield revolvers in .380/200 caliber. The Norwegians issued the license built Colt Model 1911 in .45 ACP. The Czechs used the CZ24 and CZ27, in 7.65mm.

The Scandinavian country of Sweden used the Lahti in 9x19. Denmark used the Model 1910-21 Bergman-Bayard, in 9mm B-B (9x23). Finland used the Lahti in 9x19 beginning in 1935. Poland used the Vis35 in 9x19, and the NG30 in 7.62 Nagant. Sweden used the Browning 1907 in a peculiar 9x29 Browning Long cartridge, and the Lahti in 9x19. America used the .45 ACP, and various .38 Special revolvers. General officers used the Remington in .32 or .380, depending on availability. Canada, Australia, British Indian and African militaries used the .38/200 revolvers.

It would seem that the larger participants, except for the Germans, used the 9x19 as the "substitute standard". NONE of them, except for the Italians used the .380 9x17 caliber for general issue.

I will certainly place more faith in multiple books than I ever would on the recollections of three men in their 80's. I applaud their service, though, and am thankful that they lived through the war.

Altogether, the .32 ACP, or 7.65mm Browning WAS used for decades by the Police of Europe. It wasn't until after the Munich Olympics debacle of 1972 that even the German Police standardized on the 9x19 caliber, though. In Europe, until that time, Police routinely issued rifles and sub-machineguns to Police officers in assignments where they might need additional firepower. You still see that in evidence in many European air-ports, even today. The European Police, like many in the European military, viewed the pistol as a badge of rank, or identification as part of the uniform.

Phil DeGraves
November 17, 2008, 11:16 AM
The Beretta 1934 was .380 Auto (9 mm Corto is the Italian denomination fo the caliber), never been a 32 ACP.


Correct. However, the Beretta M1935, identical to the m1934 except in .32 ACP was in use with the Italian Navy during the time specified (Pre WW2).

JR47
November 17, 2008, 04:23 PM
Careful or you'll be asked if you were in the Italian Armed Forces, too.

jocko
November 17, 2008, 04:27 PM
KOKA; the 32naa IMO the 32 NAA is nothing more than a novelty round, very little ammo choice, not sure if even a semi is being made today to shoot it. where as the 380 can at least push a 102 grain golden sabre and make a much bigger hole..

saturno_v
November 17, 2008, 05:40 PM
Correct. However, the Beretta M1935, identical to the m1934 except in .32 ACP was in use with the Italian Navy during the time specified (Pre WW2).

The model denomination is different so it's not a 1934

The Italian Air Force issued the .32 ACP by choice, as did the Navy.

Choice for some departments when they could put their hand on the 1934model because of the war effort.

Source: "Le Armi Da Fuoco" by Ugo Venturoli, Sansoni editor 1972

For pistols chambered in .32 ACP to be so "rare" in Police and military use, there sure are a lot of them cataloged and identified for collectors. I even left OUT the ones categorized as Rare.



A pistol can be not rare but it can be rare the use in police forces.

Since its introduction, in 1929, the Walther PP was chambered in .380 auto (9 mm Kurz in German)

So overall, can you tell me, in percentage, how many police and military forces in Europe used a caliber below the .380 auto versus the rest?

Maybe in the pistols you mentioned, they were also chambered in .32 ACP (i.e. the Walther PP) but that doesn't necessarely means that the police force used the 32 ACP version...do you find the specific information of the chambering used???

saturno_v
November 17, 2008, 06:14 PM
However you are right about the Walther PP.
It was produced in way bigger number for the 32 ACP than the .380

saturno_v
November 17, 2008, 06:23 PM
the Beretta M1935, identical to the m1934 except in .32 ACP was in use with the Italian Navy during the time specified (Pre WW2).

Not corrrect.

While the appearance is similar, the part's size is diferent (and not interchangeable, for example the slide) and the overall size is different.

It is a different pistol, based ont he same design but different.

JR47
November 17, 2008, 08:07 PM
So overall, can you tell me, in percentage, how many police and military forces in Europe used a caliber below the .380 auto versus the rest?


No, just as you can't tell me the number of Police Forces in existence in Europe. I have posted more than enough examples of the .32 ACP pistol as accepted by the Police and military. It wasn't rare.

FYI, the .380 ACP PP and PPK were accepted into the German Army only in the closing days of the war. There is a single example of a Waffenamt Proof contract. "Standard catalog of Military Firearms, 3rd Edition, by Ned Schwing. Pages 138-146.

I actually listed the calibers employed by the Axis and Allies in WWII, and the .380 was used by SOME Italian forces for the years that they were combatants. The 9mm was also used by few WWII combatants as standard issue, predominantly the Germans, who issued the .32 ACP in a bewildering number of types that included those manufactured by captured plants.

I have no vested interest in how many Police Forces used what pistol, but, until the 1970s, it was not a standard issue cartridge in European Police Departments. Perhaps you, who made this claim, would deign to actually provide some proof? :)

TestPilot
November 17, 2008, 09:02 PM
I will respect it when it's in other's hand, because it can kill me.

I won't use it myself unless I have no choice, because it's far less likely to immediately stop a criminal than other calibers, even if it can kill the criminal hours after being hit.

TestPilot
November 17, 2008, 09:15 PM
Oh, and forget what Europians or some other countries are issuing. A lot of them makes choices based on totally stupid things.

Japanese patrol officer not being issued a gun at all does not mean that is a wise thing for people in US to do.

Korean police carrying their M10 with first and second cylinder either filled with blanks or nothing does not mean that's a smart practice.

I can't care less what Italian Military issued.

Just keep in mind that there are many agencies and many countries that makes equipment choices not based on what works best when the equipement actually get used.

At least countries like German and France learned the hard way and at least now they issue 9mm like they should have.

Only Europian governmental entitiy gun choices that interest me are choices made by people who actually depend on the performance of their weapon, such as GSG-9, SEK, GIGN, etc.

saturno_v
November 17, 2008, 09:24 PM
Here it is some proof

You said the .380 was used by SOME Italian Forces...well just look at the production numbers:

The Beretta 1934 was produced in circa 1.5 million of pieces.

The Model 1935 just shy of half million.

(Source: le Armi da Fuoco, Ugo Venturoli Sansoni Editor 1972, Armi e Tiro the premier gun magazine in Italy, The Bolaffi Catalog, one of the major firearm publication in Europe)


In addition to the fact that the Model 1934 outproduced the Model 1935 by 3 to 1, The M1935 was sold also in the civilian market and was by far the most popular civilian pistol in Italy, with the later Model 70 (32 ACP) and one of the most popular self-defense civilian pistol in Europe with the Walther PP.

Beretta sold huge numbers of them to civilians. I do not have the actual figures, but I would bet that the civilian market outnumbered the military/police market by far.

Up the mid 90's the .380 Auto was considered a military caliber in Italy (and elsewhere in Europe too) so it was banned from civilian ownership

The civilian market for the M1934 opened up only for used pistols once the caliber was "demilitarized".

The Model 1935 was also extensively used by the municipal police.
In Italy there are 3 national police forces: Carabinieri, Polizia di Stato and Guardia di Finanza, then every city has what is called municipal police, Vigili Urbani in Italian, mainly for urban traffic regulation and municipal law administration, they do not have heavy law enforcement duties...for example, they give you a ticket for parking in the wrong place.
Being the local municipal force considered civilian personnel, they were banned from using the .380 auto or any other military caliber.
Same thing for the Forestal Service....they wre considered a civilian force so banned from using militay caliber....they did use the model 1935 extensively.

So I confirm, again, (you are free to believe it or not) that the 32 ACP saw limited service in Italy's armed forces or national police forces (excluding municipal police or forestal service, as I said).

However, the 32 ACP was the most popular civilian defensive round in Italy (along with the 38 Special for revolvers) with the 25 ACP a distant second, before the advent of the 9 X 21 IMI and the liberalization of the .380 Auto for civilians.

The rule for military calibers, at least in Italy has been relaxed during the years.
Up to 30 and more years ago, any caliber (rifle or pistol) that was at some point used by any official military force in the world was banned from civilian ownership, except for former police or military officers. The antique service rifles with tampered bolt mechanism and permanent plugged breech in order to be sold to civilians were a sad thing of that time.
Later on, the rule was eliminated for rifle calibers, then, one by one, for pistol calibers (45 ACP, .380 Auto, etc..)
Today only the 9 mm Luger (universally known as 9 mm Parabellum over there) is banned from civilian ownership in Italy, and this is the reason of the enormous success of the 9 X 21 IMI chambering in the Italian civilian market for pistols.
The rationale for this surviving limitation is that the 9 mm caliber is used in highly concealable sub-machine guns (for example UZIs) which is a big no-no for civilians.
I'm sure, one day, even this last barrier will crumble.

In France, instead, there is still a strict "no military caliber of the past or present for civilians" rule...., for example, you cannot own a 30-06 rifle in France....or a Mosin Nagant for that matter.

However, as some people believe in USA, this has nothing to do with the power itself of the caliber (I read all the time comments like: In Europe governments do not trust civilians owning too much powerful calibers)
It is just a limitation intended to prevent civilians to use military weaponry they could put their hands on.

In Italy, or France, you still can own a Desert Eagle .50 AE, a 460 Weatherby Magnum or a 44 Magnum Revolver.

For example, the 8 X 64S Brenneke is a very popular high power rifle round in France, once it was never used by any military force, it is allowed.

Hollywood Marine
November 18, 2008, 05:26 AM
Well, I once knew a bodyguard for an arab sheik who carried a colt woodsman match target. When I asked about the .22's effectiveness, he lined up 8 coke bottles on a fence rail, necks facing him, walked about 20 feet, turned, drew, and shot the bottoms out of all eight, rapid fire.

As for me, I'll stick to my 1911 and my shotgun.

JR47
November 18, 2008, 09:44 AM
You are the expert in Italian arms, then. However, Italy isn't Europe. You are aware that Beretta sold the Spanish .32 ACP semi-auto pistols to the civilian population? Or that many of the Model 1889 Bodeo revolvers still in service in WWII were actually manufactured by Spain's Orbea Hermanos, as the Model 1916? Or that Italy bought and issued the Spanish Ruby pistols prior to, and again, during WWII? These were also in .32 ACP. Source is Spanish Hanguns by Gene Gangarosa, Jr., 2001.

How large were the Italian municipal or forestal services?

If, as you say, the Municipal Police aren't involved in actual law enforcement, why are they armed, at all?

Your proof is appreciated, but it's really not what you were talking about. Again, Italy isn't Europe. You stated that the .32 ACP wasn't accepted into national or military service in Europe. Even as you do so, you acknowledge that even the Italian Armed Forces used it. The German Army's non-infantry standard was the .32 ACP. The German and Dutch Police, along with the Belgians, French, Spanish, and many other police forces used the .32 ACP. The parsing of even the Italian police into National and Municipal is a manipulation of your statement. The Italian Municipal Police do much the same thing as out Local LEOs in many cases. Smaller Departments all over the United States do little more than control non-violent crime, calling in better-equipped forces to deal with serious criminal cases.

The simple fact remains that the .32 ACP WAS a common issue for Police in Europe for decades.

saturno_v
November 18, 2008, 03:40 PM
The Italian municipal police forces are armed more as an ornament than real need. No serious law enforcement....at most they stop you for speeding. It is more an administrative corp than anything else. Some of these "policemen" (yes it is a stretch to call these department "police" because their duties are different than the accepted word for Police in USA) are not even armed in some occasion and circumstances.

Every city has one...you can go from literally a one man force for very very small villages to thousands for cities with more than a million residents.

Italy has thousands of cities. So, in the aggregate is not a small numbers of men, however is a SMALL percentage compared to the 3 national police forces and the armed forces

I don't know how many in the forestal service, but for sure they are in the several thousands

As I said, these corps could not be issued with a .380 ACP or a 9 mm sidearms because they were considered a military caliber and so banned from civilian use.

My clarification about the municipal police is not a "manipulation" just a detailed explanation.

And no, the Municipal Police cannot be compared to your local LEO even in the smallest city in the US.

If a bank robbery happen in "anytown USA population 5000", probably if you dial 911 the call go to the small city police force or the county sheriff...a local LEO would get involved in a potential standout or chase.
The same in an homicide scene.....the local police would get involved at least initially and/or support the investigation.

The Italian Vigili Urbani (Municipal Police) NEVER EVER get involved in something like that. They are not connected to an emergency number at all.
The correct translation of Vigili urbani should really be "Traffic Police"

If a robbery suspect car would literally cross their way they would call the national police and absolutely, not get involved in a chase. They could get in trouble for doing this as overstepping their authorities. They have no power to arrest anyway...more of this later.

Every small town in Italy, not matter how small, has a local national police force to carry out law enforcement duties (and "heavy" traffic regulation too like speeding control....yes they do overlap with the municipal police in that regard except that the national police will never give you a ticket for parking) and sometimes more than one station for the other of the 3 national police forces. If the city is even a little bit bigger, you will have stations for all 3 national police forces. If a citizen from that city call an emergency number, for any reason, even just a noisy neighbour, the call would go directly to the local national police station or the fire department if is appropriate for the type of emergency. The Municipal police is out of the loop.
As I said before, they do not even have the power to arrest..they can stop you within the limit of their duties (traffic control) but to carry out an actual arrest they need to call the National Police. They work 9 to 5 then go home, unless they need to regulate traffic for some events. Outside of their duties and service hours they are regular citizens.
I don't know if we have something like that in the US...Italy can be a bit byzantine when it comes to laws and regulations.

Yes Beretta sold tons of 32 ACP pistols everywhere in the civilian market in Europe. In Italy the word "7,65" and "Beretta" were synonyms.

And I never said the 32 ACP was not accepted, I said, initially, extremely rare and I was wrong, so I corrected myself and say not that common.

At this point would be interesting to see in what percentage the caliber was used in the past for police/military work in Europe. it would be an interesting figure to look at.

If it is 30% or less, in my opinion, it would still support the "not that common" statement.

lefteyedom
November 18, 2008, 03:49 PM
I beleave that a 32 acp and a Louiville Slugger have the same effective range,,,,,

usp9
November 18, 2008, 05:01 PM
I beleave that a 32 acp and a Louiville Slugger have the same effective range,,,,,


Yes, 500 feet and a home run!

dpatten
November 19, 2008, 07:02 PM
I have a feeling that the .32 cal pistols issued by the militaries of Europe were primarily to Officers rather than enlisted men and were more in the way of a "badge of authority" than something intended for combat. The same with the police issued weapons. Prior to WW1 an officer might have carried a sword, for the same purpose, " Hey, look at me I'm in charge."

springer7676
February 17, 2009, 10:15 PM
THE STOPPING POWER OF DIFFERENT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES
2/22/2003

Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 11:34:22 PM by 2nd_Amendment_Defender

General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.


You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.


Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating

.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1

.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7

.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3

*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8

.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6

*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5

.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54

*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80

10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4

.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7

*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7

**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7

**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5

.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6

.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2

9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3

9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9

.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3

.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1

.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7

.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2


* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.


* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round

the-ghost
February 18, 2009, 12:43 PM
imo a sd gun needs to stop someone fast. if the round isnt powerful enough to shatter someones pelvis at 3 or 4 yards its not worth much.

kokapelli
February 18, 2009, 12:52 PM
I'm not a cop and am not going to corner a BG to where he has to shoot his way out.

A self defense gun needs to end an attack and I believe that 99 times out of a hundred, if you punch a hole clean through someone, with a 32, 380 or just about any caliber they are going to retreat if they can.

I think this perpetual caliber argument is way overblown when it comes to self defense.

thunder173
February 19, 2009, 11:52 AM
Carried a Walther PP in .32 for many years. Never felt undergunned with it within it's limitations. It was my cc and occasional back up. I avoided firefights whenever possible. Not as good as some,...but a whole lot better than many. YMMV

okespe04
February 19, 2009, 01:18 PM
I acctually know a big, tough guy that used to think he was cool because he liked to get in fights and stuff. One time he was kind of drunk in font of a convenience store getting cocky with some little gangster type punks. One of gangster kids pulled out a .22 and shot him in the gut. Big tough guy falls to the ground bleeding and crying. Little gangsters ran off and got away. I bet a .32 would have had similar results. Don't worry big tough guy was fine. He had some parts of his intestines removed and and put back together and stuff. Now he is a lot more mellow, works hard and is a mostly respectable guy that no longer talks a lot of smack.

mrt949
February 19, 2009, 05:41 PM
I carry a seecamp 32 .in my pocket all the time .i hope it works .because my 40 s@w is in the safe.:D

S&Wfan
February 22, 2009, 11:16 AM
No!

Go deer hunting and seek to get 100% stops with a high power rifle on a target oblivious to you but also moving . . . and you'll see that 100% stop is never an absolute, but bigger more powerful rounds HELP a lot.

Now . . .

Take that knowledge of reality and apply it to a handgun in the hands of a shaking you . . . against a BG who knows full well where YOU are and who has also decided to take you out anyway. He won't stand still either and he'll move a lot so you'll miss a lot.

Also, he'll be in an urgent mood to dispatch you as fast as possible . . . before you can launch a bullet into him.

IF you hit him, he's gonna know that he's got to truly finish his job fast if he is to somehow survive.


An you want to bet your life to a mousegun with an anemic cartridge coming out of a very short barrel?

Even if you kill your attacker, he'll probably kill you too before he loses strength unless you get lucky and make an effective brain or spine shot.

Carry as much handgun as you can tolerate, and pray you'll never have to find out.

MICHAEL T
February 22, 2009, 02:33 PM
People in this country have been defending them selves every day with 25 32 and 380 for many many years . Majority of time they are safe and unharmed when its over . Its you choice In my many years I have used a 25 auto and a 45 Both worked . Threat ended The one on you is more important than the one in car or home.

dogspit
February 22, 2009, 06:39 PM
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/dogdpit/th_IMG_0700.jpg (http://s89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/dogdpit/?action=view&current=IMG_0700.jpg)

I have an H&R model 732 that shoots s&w 32 longs

But Pictured above is the Chrome Equalizer

Either will make your day dismal if shot with! I GUARANTEEEEEEEEE!

jcwit
February 22, 2009, 08:24 PM
He!! my day would be dismal if shot with a .22. Believe me I know, very dismal.

alistaire
February 23, 2009, 03:28 PM
Can a .32 ACP CC gun have enough balls to be a respectable defense gun?

No. but it is better than telling a bad guy "Stop! Wait until I find a sharp stick before you kill me."

kokapelli
February 23, 2009, 04:38 PM
Yes, but a 380 would be better and a 9mm would be still better, etc, etc.

capttom
February 23, 2009, 05:38 PM
I'm not a fan of the calibre, but I have a 1960s vintage Beretta Puma that is flatter than my 642 Airweight and just as long. The single action semi is much easier to carry and shoot accurately than the hammerless revolver. One reload magazine gives me 15 rounds total in the Beretta; a speedloader gives me 10 in the S&W. Do 15 .32s = 10 .38s? I don't know.
Do I carry the Beretta sometimes? Yes.
Am I comfortable doing so? Not always.

searcher451
February 23, 2009, 09:07 PM
The .32 was the standard caliber of police forces around the world for years and years and years. The more you go up the ladder, the better your chances, of course ... but in the right hands and under the right circumstances, a .32 can be plenty.

gym
August 9, 2010, 03:20 PM
There is a perception thatjust because something "was", that it still "is". We use what is at hand, when something better comes along we use that. There was no pistol that was being manufactured for the public when these smaller calibers were popular. Or they would have used the larger caliber. Simple, a 32 is outdated, I have a 32 seacamp, because in 1995 that was the first mini auto pistol and there was a two year wait and a thousand dollar price tag on it. Now we have invented better pistols with better caliber ammo that does a better job. Why drive a hupmobile just because it exhists. You want this weapon to do a specific job, so why try to do the job with an outdated tool. James bond, would have carried a 40 caliber if they had a 40 caliber when flemming wrote the books.

valorius
August 9, 2010, 03:22 PM
I really dislike the .32acp's semi-rimmed design. It really limits the caliber IMO.

KBintheSLC
August 9, 2010, 04:37 PM
The .32 is nothing to scoff at. Though it is not my first choice for a gunfight, it still packs nearly double the weight of a .22 LR bullet with about 50% more energy and about 50% larger diameter. It can be plenty effective with direct hits using heavy ball or cast loadings. Where it falls short is when you have to overcome intermediate barriers in order to hit your target. That was the primary reason law enforcement agencies moved away from it back in the day.
However, for CCW use, it can be a good compromise between size, weight and firepower.

Deaf Smith
August 9, 2010, 06:27 PM
wbond,

It ain't the gun that has the balls..... it's the person holding it.

Now the .32 is a mite weak. Not something I'd intentionaly pick as my primo uno packing gun.

But, if you are very very skilled, the .32 can do.

So I suggest you get lots of practice, maybe a .22 version of your .32 is in order.

Deaf

Manco
August 9, 2010, 09:43 PM
There is a perception thatjust because something "was", that it still "is".

But .32 ACP is still just as effective as it was.

We use what is at hand, when something better comes along we use that. There was no pistol that was being manufactured for the public when these smaller calibers were popular. Or they would have used the larger caliber.

The public aside, I didn't see every military and police force switch over to .45 ACP pistols, which I suppose has been the "best" autoloader cartridge since it was created more than a century ago (not long after .32 ACP). Even 9mm Luger wasn't quickly adopted by European police forces, who stuck with .380 ACP and even .32 ACP long after more powerful autoloader cartridges had come along.

Simple, a 32 is outdated, I have a 32 seacamp, because in 1995 that was the first mini auto pistol and there was a two year wait and a thousand dollar price tag on it. Now we have invented better pistols with better caliber ammo that does a better job.

Uh...when do you think all of these calibers were invented? :confused:

Why drive a hupmobile just because it exhists. You want this weapon to do a specific job, so why try to do the job with an outdated tool. James bond, would have carried a 40 caliber if they had a 40 caliber when flemming wrote the books.

So why didn't James Bond carry a .45 ACP pistol, which had been around for over four decades by the time the character was created?

FruitCake
August 9, 2010, 10:25 PM
In a upclose self defense situation I strongly feel my P32 would do the job. The sound of my 32 being fired is very intimidating in my opinion. I would really prefer to carry my 9mm but a full size gun being carried all day is just uncomfortable for me, unless I was standing all the time. I carry my P32 95% of the time. Also very happy with it. Even picked up a PF9 last week still not nearly as comfortable to carry as my 32 but only time will tell.

gym
August 9, 2010, 11:55 PM
Manco, the pistols weren't invented the ammo was. The reason that the 32 was popular was that there were plenty of medium to small size pistols that could fire that round, when technology got better and guns got smaller, they were able to make them small enough to use the larger calibers and still be compact enough to conceal. Also the improver technology of higher pressure ammo, has negated the 32 from being a viable contender in the carry market. The 10 mm and 40 were not around granted the 9mm and 45 were but there were no guns to shoot them from that were a good trade off. I carried a 380 and 38 in the 70's and all we had for small packages were snub nose revolvers and ppk's. Now you have a hundred choices of a superior nature, why would you want to go for an underpowered round. Just to make a point or cut and paste what I say because you feel you "really" have a point. I doubt that you truly believe that. Up close is where you don't want to be if possible,Explorer, unless it's unavoidable. But if you are looking for comfort instead of a life saving tool then you may be looking at the wrong things. Guns are not always comfortable and you sometimes have to dress around your weapon. Otherwise we would all be carrying that 10 oz rubber laser cannon.I have both of those guns amoung others, and there is no way I would take a 32 seacamp over a pf9, unless maybe I had both guns on me. The 32 is a BUG, plain and simple.

LawofThirds
August 10, 2010, 12:09 AM
The way I see it, .32 ACP's big detractor is not the stopping power (in FMJ it gets the penetration needed) but rather the semi rimmed case that can lead to rim lock.

8 .32 holes vs 7 .356 holes. Not that much difference in volume of tissue displaced between the two and the .32 does have the advantage of being quicker in follow-up shots.

It's not an optimum defensive round but it does have its place in the self defense roll call.

My only wish is that someone would push the round farther into a ".32 Super Automatic" range and push maybe another 150 fps out of the round. That would be enough to make many of the hollowpoints much more reliable in expansion.

gym
August 10, 2010, 12:41 AM
We all know the 380 is on the edge of acceptability in a carry gun, thus 20 new 380's in the last 2 years. No one is pushing 32's why would that be.Most of us know why. They are a poor self defense round. There is no one who has come out with a new 32,. Keltek and seacamp were the last two maybe bersa or american arms. because there is no market for them. And why is there no market for them. Because they lack the necessary ballistics of a round used for self defense. Sure you can use it, I have a couple boxes in my safe. But I can use my wamo slingshot also.I wouldn't want to get into a situation wher I had to defend myself or my family with a 32 cliber pistol as my only weapon. Especially with badguys wearing coats on and carrying big ass guns. it's just a recipie for disaster. And I sure would not want to get very close to anyone carrying a 1911 or a M&P, or any decent weapon system with that 32. 32's are famous for failure to expand, and hitting somone with 2 or three layers of clothing on, is going to piss them off unless you hit a vital. On the other hand you have a chance with your pf-9 and some corb-ons,or hydro shocks, big difference. 110-124 grain and he or they will not get up if hit in the chest. And most tiny 32's are 6 or 7 rounds, you may need 2 or 3 round or more to put down a big guy running at you.

zxcvbob
August 10, 2010, 12:44 AM
Are there any modern guns chambered for the .30 Luger CTG? There's your .32 ACP on steroids (without getting ridiculous like the .30 Mauser or 7.62 Tokarev or .30 Carbine)

Allentown
August 10, 2010, 01:34 AM
Defensive, yes.

Respectable? Well its better than nothing and with multiple rounds on target i am sure would be effective.

Boris bush
August 10, 2010, 01:46 AM
Are there any modern guns chambered for the .30 Luger CTG? There's your .32 ACP on steroids (without getting ridiculous like the .30 Mauser or 7.62 Tokarev or .30 Carbine)

Google 7.92 VBR compact. Now thats a 7.65Br on steroids. Even make a conversion for glocks and capacity is a good bit more....

Manco
August 10, 2010, 02:40 AM
Manco, the pistols weren't invented the ammo was.

True enough, but at the same time if there was enough of a desire for a certain kind of pistol chambered in a larger caliber, then it would likely have been made sooner. I don't think it would have taken more advanced technology or metallurgy, but it does take a welcoming market and/or often a requirement from professional organizations.

Now you have a hundred choices of a superior nature, why would you want to go for an underpowered round. Just to make a point or cut and paste what I say because you feel you "really" have a point.

I wouldn't counter unless I thought I had something to add to the discussion. The salient question of this thread is whether a .32 ACP pistol is a "respectable" defensive weapon. You basically said that it was because that's all they had at the time, but is no longer considered respectable because there are better options now, while I said in response essentially that if it was considered respectable at some point (and for a long time), then at the very least it is just as effective now, so what should people think?

I simply gave a different point of view. Your point of view seems to be heavily based on the public perception of what happens to be available at any given time, as well as the notion that whatever manufacturers come up with drives the market, while mine relies heavily on what professionals actually used, with the suggestion that if .32 ACP was in fact not effective, then it would not have been respected, and the professionals would have very quickly asked for something better, implying that military and police requirements can also drive the market and determine what happens to be available. There is truth to be found in both points of view, and if anything my point was that there is more than one valid way to look at this topic.

If an analogy would help, it's like how some people claim that an older computer is "obsolete" just because faster, more capable computers are available today, while others may claim that a computer cannot by definition be "obsolete" as long as it performs the same tasks that it always did with the same degree of efficiency as before. In this view, if something is still as useful as it ever was, then it is not obsolete. And given the way that most people use word processors, for example, it isn't necessary for them to upgrade to the latest computer that can do realtime 3D graphics for the latest games. In analogy, the task of stopping and/or killing humans with bullets (hopefully bad guys, but everybody is a potential target) hasn't changed much, either, despite the changes in the market. From this perspective, if .32 ACP really was respected back in its heyday because it was effective enough to have earned that respect, then it should be respected today as well.

Getting back to your question of why anybody would want to use a .32 ACP pistol today, well maybe they shoot better with this caliber. I can't shoot any better with 9mm than I do with .40 S&W, but a lot of people can because everybody is different and perceives recoil differently. Maybe you can't shoot .32 ACP any better than you can shoot .380 ACP, but maybe somebody else can, and I'd like to at least address the question for those people, as well as hypothetically for anybody who is interested just for the sake of curiosity.

I doubt that you truly believe that.

Believe what? That I have something to contribute to the discussion, or what I've been saying about .32 ACP? Are you accusing me of being argumentative for its own sake? :scrutiny: Well, I believe that I did make a valid point and I believe every single thing I've said about .32 ACP (although I'm open to what others say and can change my mind if proven wrong--I've already had to abandon what I used to believe in order to reach this point in the first place). You're free to believe whatever you want. ;)

SharpsDressedMan
August 10, 2010, 08:03 AM
For most big bore fans, the .32 is never going to be an attraction. For simple gun enthusiasm, the .32, in the many guns that are around, is going to fly because we like the GUNS. We collect, we own, we shoot....we just have fun with them. Can we also carry them for defense? Sure. Are they BETTER than other guns? Often not, but if we perform well with a given gun, or it hides nicely, or it is just what we WANT to carry that day (I often carry a Colt 1903 and sometimes a Walther PPk), then the .32 is going to be in use. As far as rim lock, I am sure it exists, but I have never had it happen to me with either the Colt or Walther, and also shoot semi-rimmed .38 Super in four other 1911 pattern guns, and have not had it happen in those, either. So, you can worry about that if you want to, but with six guns and thousands of rounds spent, I am not going to worry about it.

gun guy
August 10, 2010, 08:56 AM
while many of the younger xbox warrior crowd with weeks of experience reading guns and ammo, and several online wins, will state that the 45, or the gatling gun is the only weapon to carry, the 32 will work as a self defense weapon. For about the last 100 years it has been a principal side arm for both military and police in European countries. There are many fine weapons chambered in 7.65 and high quality modern ammo to feed them. within its limitations, its adaquate at close range. the downside is mainly the cost. for what you pay for a 32, and ammo, you can have a 9mm and more ammo. However if you are older, a smaller person, or not comfortable with a larger weapon, you are armed with a 32. After all the bombs,tanks, and ships, it was a 32 that finally killed hitler.

dogngun
August 10, 2010, 08:56 AM
an old reliable FEG with 2 extra mags full of S&B ball ammo. This was a police loading in europe, runs pretty hot and has been 100% reliable and very accurate.
In winter I usually go with a .45 ACP, but I like John Browning's favorite cartridge - the .32 ACP- too, but hell, I'm a liberal, so what do I know....


mark

PRM
August 10, 2010, 09:12 AM
WOW - this thread just keeps going(2008-2010). After supper tonight, I think I will cook up a pan of pop corn and start over, reading from the top. This is one topic where there will never be agreement. Some of the opinions are down right amusing though.

Mp7
August 10, 2010, 09:42 AM
Just to add to the 32. vs .380 in european police forces:

From what i´ve heard and read it was very common for police forces
to carry carbines on duty. The neigborhood officer would only
have his .32 PPK, but if trouble arose you would always face
Cops with rifles.
It was a dictatorship with an emperor at the top,
believe me there were plenty of cops around, to
cope with trouble when it arose.
( breaking up union-demonstration by firing into the crowd with K98s)

It´s not like the "Wachtmeister" back then or in the Nazi-era had to fight extensive
gunbattles with his PPK. His authority would suffice most of the time.
In a police-state there is more police around
than in a democracy - for obvious reasons.

So the caliber vs caliber argumentation is at a deadend there,
because situation and use were way different than today.

Pick a gun that u can carry comfortably and that
you can draw and shoot well with. Obeying rule #1 is key
in that one in a million situation, that will probably never happen
to the vast majority of us.

02$

easyg
August 10, 2010, 10:17 AM
while many of the younger xbox warrior crowd with weeks of experience reading guns and ammo, and several online wins, will state that the 45, or the gatling gun is the only weapon to carry, the 32 will work as a self defense weapon. For about the last 100 years it has been a principal side arm for both military and police in European countries.
Please, list all the various European police agencies, and the various European military units that carry the .32 as their principle side arm.

Manco
August 10, 2010, 11:30 AM
We all know the 380 is on the edge of acceptability in a carry gun, thus 20 new 380's in the last 2 years. No one is pushing 32's why would that be.Most of us know why. They are a poor self defense round. There is no one who has come out with a new 32,. Keltek and seacamp were the last two maybe bersa or american arms. because there is no market for them. And why is there no market for them. Because they lack the necessary ballistics of a round used for self defense.

What kind of terminal ballistics are necessary? .32 ACP's penetration with non-expanding bullets seems respectable by most standards:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page820.htm

Several needed more than one gelatin block, penetrating over 16", and one penetrated 13.8" after flipping around. I'd take this over the terminal ballistics of .380 ACP JHPs that are so popular these days.

Sure you can use it, I have a couple boxes in my safe. But I can use my wamo slingshot also.

How much penetration does your slingshot get?

I wouldn't want to get into a situation wher I had to defend myself or my family with a 32 cliber pistol as my only weapon. Especially with badguys wearing coats on and carrying big ass guns. it's just a recipie for disaster. And I sure would not want to get very close to anyone carrying a 1911 or a M&P, or any decent weapon system with that 32.

I use an M&P40 for home defense, and I wouldn't want to face anybody carrying any kind of gun because I might end up dead (especially somebody who knows what loads to use in order to get sufficient penetration).

32's are famous for failure to expand, and hitting somone with 2 or three layers of clothing on, is going to piss them off unless you hit a vital.

Expanding just makes the bullet wider. That helps your chances by some small amount, but all bullets are still small relative to the target. Even a fully-expanded .45 ACP is just going to piss bad guys off unless you hit a vital (and they are determined to fight). Granted, it has a somewhat greater chance of doing so, and if you can shoot it as well as .32 ACP, then it's a worthwhile upgrade given the high stakes involved, but in my opinion it's still just an edge, hardly a vast difference in capability. As long as sufficient penetration is achieved everything else in an ordinary handgun caliber is highly subject to the law of diminishing returns. And of course no ordinary handgun caliber has any inherent "stopping power" whatsoever, apart from an effective combination of penetration and shot placement.

On the other hand you have a chance with your pf-9 and some corb-ons,or hydro shocks, big difference. 110-124 grain and he or they will not get up if hit in the chest.

It depends on where you hit them. For example:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=537790

Granted, it's an extreme example that happened because of strange luck, but it does illustrate quite vividly the utter lack of "stopping power" possessed by this "respectable" service caliber. While I don't know exactly what transpired during this incident, I doubt that a single bullet to the chest would have kept him down for the count. On the other hand, a single .32 ACP bullet with the right placement (which depends mostly on luck) could have severed his carotid artery and killed him very quickly.

And most tiny 32's are 6 or 7 rounds, you may need 2 or 3 round or more to put down a big guy running at you.

If that's all it would take, then great! :cool: Personally, I don't expect that it would take much, if any, fewer for larger calibers, though. Not that I would necessarily know the difference anyway, should I ever be forced to shoot a bad guy, since they'd get 3 quick shots right off the bat no matter what, the third one aimed at their head (assuming that the shots hit where they're aimed, of course, and it isn't that easy in a real shooting).

christcorp
August 10, 2010, 01:42 PM
IF you take out the stereotypes and how little some people know, you find that the 32acp is not a bad gun for self defense. The diameter of the 32acp bullet is .309 vs .355 for the 380/9mm/38/357. Basically, 12% smaller. That is the only real disadvantage. The importance of any pistol bullet is penetration. A FMJ 32acp, on average, will penetrate between 13-16 inches. This is more than enough penetration; according to just about ANY authority or so called expert.

Bullets are a catch-22. Bullets are invented with greater weight, to increase penetration. However, as modern propellants were developed, they realized that these same weight bullets could then OVER-Penetrate. Some pistols cartridges, like the 45acp, were a small enough casing, that they still maintained their 850-950 fps. With a LRN, the penetration was in the 12-14" range. But with the 9mm, 38spl, 357 mag, etc.... the additional velocity with standard fmj/lrn type bullets pushed them too deep.

Then, hollow points became a very popular bullet. They achieved 2 things. Most important, they did the parachute effect and slowed the bullet down so it wouldn't over-penetrate. Also, by shear force, it expanded the bullet. Any increase in diameter, means more potential tissue damage. Assuming of course that you don't give up on penetration. I.e. a 45acp doubling in size may sound great, but not if it only penetrated 4-5 inches. Well, unfortunately, Hollow-points had their catch-22 also. Not enough velocity, or quality deficiency, or "Clogging effect", and the hollow point won't expand. Then the hollow-point is a toss up. it "MIGHT" act like a fmj/lrn and penetrate very well; or it slows down too much. So, to have the best odds, modern bullets with hollow-points tend to push the 1000+fps. All the way up to around 1400-1500 fps; depending on the caliber.

Now; does this mean that a 32acp can't be an effective defense round? No, not at all. Doesn't mean it's equal to or better than a 380, 9mm, 38, 40, 45, or 357; just that it can be effective. If your accuracy with a 32acp is 9.5 out of 10 compared to 6.5 out of 10 with a 40s&w, then the 32acp is actually more effective than the 40s&w. What is important, is to not try and make the 32acp what it is not. Don't use a ford focus to hall trash to the dump. Don't use a ford F250 single cab to take the family on a summer vacation.

With the 32acp, use fmj or LFN (Buffalo-Bore). I prefer the Buffalo-bore or the winchester flat nose. They create larger entrance holes and more tissue damage. They don't slip/slide through like most fmj do. They still penetrate acceptably from 13-16 inches. And contrary to those who don't know what they're talking about, they don't just "Piss someone off".

Now, if you live in the northern states, where there's a lot more layers of clothing; e.g. heavy coat, sweatshirt, and undershirt; then the 32acp probably doesn't have the mass necessary to penetrate the 13-16 inches. And therefor, it will be much less effective. But if the environment you are going to use it, is a typical single layer of clothing, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a non-hp 32acp.

People who swear against this, truly do not know what they are talking about. Of course, if a person's position is 1) recommending a single gun for multiple purposes; 2) Paranoid into believing that they need 10+ rounds in a magazine; or 3) Carrying the most powerful handgun that an individual can possibly handle, because you never know what the scenario can be; then these people will never even consider a 32acp. And there is nothing that anyone can say or prove that will get them to see the facts and admit it.

But again, it's all about perception. The 32acp is most definitely an acceptable round for self defense; if used properly. When I'm at a dinner party, carrying a 45acp or even a 9mm concealed can be very difficult because of the attire. However, a 32acp or 380 in an ankle holster is small and light enough to be useful. When you get to the size of guns like the LCP, Seecamp, Kel-tec, kahr, etc... the higher the caliber, the more difficult it is to shoot accurately. I will guarantee my 7 shots in my walther or FEG 32acp will be dead on target at 10 yards; compared to the same 7 shots out of my kel-tec 9mm. However, there are times the 32acp just isn't the appropriate round. I believe that most 32acp proponents understand the limitations. The 32acp critics however, refuse to admit that the 32acp actually has some advantages. And sometimes, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

We don't carry a 12 gauge because it's not practical. We compromise by carrying a pistol. And even the 44 magnum has disadvantages over the 12 gauge. However, the 44 mag has some advantages over the 12 gauge. Well, while the 45acp and 40S&W have advantages over the 32acp, the 32acp does have so advantages over the 45acp and 40s&w.

valorius
August 10, 2010, 02:54 PM
Several needed more than one gelatin block, penetrating over 16", and one penetrated 13.8" after flipping around. I'd take this over the terminal ballistics of .380 ACP JHPs that are so popular these days.
This is a false comparison IMO. You're comparing an apple to an orange.

Compare a .32acp ball round to a .380acp ball round, and the .380 out penetrates the .32 while also making a bigger hole. Comparing JHP to JHP, the .380 still out penetrates the .32 while also expanding to a MUCH larger diameter in the top designs (There is no Corbon DPX+P in .32acp)

And it's rimless, unlike the .32acp.

LawofThirds
August 10, 2010, 03:00 PM
What's to stop manufacturers from producing +p loadings in .32's?

christcorp
August 10, 2010, 03:04 PM
Actually, comparisons are necessary. What matters is the purpose. E.g. If you want a car, and the ONLY pre-requisite is that is can go 55 mph for city/county driving, then you can definitely compare it to a Ferrari. It doesn't matter if the Ferrari can go 150mph. Well, if I want a pistol that can penetrate 12-15", then it doesn't matter if it's a 32acp, 380, or 45acp. No, if you want to argue that the 32acp won't penetrate that much through layers of winter clothing, then I agree with you. And I wouldn't have it for winter use. And if I could only afford 1 gun, I wouldn't buy a 32acp. But I can afford any gun and as many of them I want. Therefor, for my summer use, or in situations where a single layer of clothing is all I have to go through, I am quite confident with a 32acp. Stop the threat. That is my goal. I'm not shooting at engine blocks. I don't need 15 rounds in the magazine. This is why I have 4-5 different pistols that I use for defense. Some for in the house, some for carrying outside, some for carrying when indoors, etc... The 32acp definitely has a time and place where it's a very efficient self defense gun. Just because many people don't know WHEN or WHERE that time and place is, isn't the gun's fault.

christcorp
August 10, 2010, 03:08 PM
Buffalo-Bore has a 32acp+p load that is hotter than standard 380 loads. 1150 fps and 220 ft/lbs. Standard 380 is less than that. Yes, you can get +p 380, but that's a straw argument, because you can keep going until you're convinced you need a 460 s&w or 500 for self defense.

Boris bush
August 10, 2010, 03:34 PM
What's to stop manufacturers from producing +p loadings in .32's?

The question is why don't SAAMI wake up and bring domestic ammo upto CIP spec. SAAMI has a max psi of 21,000psi, CIP has a max psi of 26,000psi. I have some S&B bimetal 7.65Br with the slick nickle instead of copper. These rounds are loaded to full CIP specs. The cases eject more than twice as far as winchester, remington or federal. Fiocchi also makes a full spec 7.65Br load.

If you ignore weak SAAMI ammo and buy real ammo made in Europe to CIP specs, then you will pretty much have a 32acp +P+ load.

The problem is the ammo spec SAAMI has put forth. Refuse to buy it. Get some Fiocchi or S&B. I think it was mentioned earlier. Fiocchi has a 60 grain hollowpoint stepping at 1200fps. Brake out your handy dandy calculator and do some figurein' Beats most 380 loads for 'power' and is equal to a few. Bonus is with this ammo you get MORE 'power' than 380 AND extra rounds in the gun...

sniper5
August 10, 2010, 03:40 PM
Most European cartridges loaded in America are "lawyer loads". Look at CIP specs for most of the Euro military cartridges and compare to SAAMI. SAAMI always goes to for the lowest proofing for liability.

Boris bush
August 10, 2010, 03:57 PM
Most European cartridges loaded in America are "lawyer loads". Look at CIP specs for most of the Euro military cartridges and compare to SAAMI. SAAMI always goes to for the lowest proofing for liability.

I have a CIP loading manual. Most starting loads for CIP loads are higher than SAAMI maximum specs that have warnings and sirens all over them warning your gun WILL explode if you do not start 10% below the SAAMI starting load and workup. My CIP loading manual has a 147 grain load for the 9mm XTP, 1207fps. That makes IPSC major, from a 4" barrel and is still 2,000psi LOWER than CIPs maximum pressure. SAAMI specs are a joke at best. Even their so called "+P" is weaker than CIP specs.

That 147 grain 9mm CIP load is only 30fps slower than a 357SIG 147 load. But hey, thats what happens when CIP 9x19mm specs are only 800psi lower than SAAMIs spec for 357SIG....

valorius
August 10, 2010, 04:46 PM
Buffalo-Bore has a 32acp+p load that is hotter than standard 380 loads. 1150 fps and 220 ft/lbs. Standard 380 is less than that. Yes, you can get +p 380, but that's a straw argument, because you can keep going until you're convinced you need a 460 s&w or 500 for self defense.
.380 Buffalo Bore +P has 295fpe of energy.

Note: These energy levels are not what you're gonna get out of a little gun like an LCP, but more what you'd get out of something like a Sig 232.

I think both calibers will easily kill with good placement and appropriate ammo selection, but the .380 has three clear advantages.

1) far more guns are available in that caliber
2) it has far greater factory ammo support
3) It is a rimless design, which has a very real world impact on the .32acps utility as a gunfighting tool. Rimlock during a gunfight, and you're dead.

I am a former Kel Tec P32 .32acp owner and CCW'er. More than any other issue, it was the guns consistent rimlocking with Buffalo Bore hard cast lead +P flat nose ammo, even with the use of KT anti-rimlock kits installed in the magazine, that made me sell it. My LCP fires a bigger, faster, heavier Buffalo Bore flat nose- without ANY chance of a rimlock failure.

I agree with the SAAMI ratings issues as well. With true "full power" ammo the 9mm exceeds 500fpe of energy, and the .380 can just about hit 300fpe.

kokapelli
August 10, 2010, 04:48 PM
The 380 pistols are the same size as the 32 pistol, the 380 will not rim lock, there are more choices in 380 pistols and the 380 cartridge is clearly superior to the 32, so what's the point in picking a 32 over a 380?

kokapelli
August 10, 2010, 04:49 PM
valorius, we must have been posting at the same time:)

Boris bush
August 10, 2010, 04:59 PM
Only gun I ever seen rimlock was a 1891 mosin nagant. Even then it was only to see if it could be done.

If some darn fool idgit loads a 7.65Br ontop of another in a magazine with the rim of the top round behind the rim of a lower round, then its called natural selection......

Never seen a P32 (and I seen plenty) EVER rimlock. I might try it some day to see if I can find the stupidity somewhere in me and load a round so it will remlock. Its the only way I see it happening...

valorius
August 10, 2010, 05:07 PM
valorius, we must have been posting at the same time
LOL, great minds think alike! ;)

Ben86
August 10, 2010, 05:45 PM
.32 is sub par as a defensive caliber in my opinion, it would make a great plinking round if it was cheaper. I really don't know why people still use the .32 when you can get the same size gun in .380. Bigger holes= Faster Incapacitation

valorius
August 10, 2010, 05:55 PM
Only gun I ever seen rimlock was a 1891 mosin nagant. Even then it was only to see if it could be done.

If some darn fool idgit loads a 7.65Br ontop of another in a magazine with the rim of the top round behind the rim of a lower round, then its called natural selection......

Never seen a P32 (and I seen plenty) EVER rimlock. I might try it some day to see if I can find the stupidity somewhere in me and load a round so it will remlock. Its the only way I see it happening...
Rimlocking is a function of cartridge length. Buffalo Bore hard cast lead flat nose ammo is VERY short in OAL, and rimlocks consistently in a P32 mag, even with a rimlock kit installed.

I took to carrying the top round in the mag and the chamber round with Buffalo Bore, and then backed those up with 9 more Corbon JHPs.

The pistol was fluffed and buffed, had extra strength springs installed, extra strength mag springs (which are supposed to apply more pressure on the rounds and reduce rimlock), and a CT laser. I typically carried it with the 10rd mag inserted, and a 7rd mag in the watch pocket of my jeans for backup.

Here's a pic of my old P32:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/KeltecCTdailycarrybattery2.jpg

I got rid of it because of the rimlock issue, and it's propensity to eject the mag when i wore it with the clip- even after i replaced the mag release button/spring, and shaved the button down to almost flush with the frame.

kokapelli
August 10, 2010, 07:51 PM
Only gun I ever seen rimlock was a 1891 mosin nagant. Even then it was only to see if it could be done.

If some darn fool idgit loads a 7.65Br ontop of another in a magazine with the rim of the top round behind the rim of a lower round, then its called natural selection......

Never seen a P32 (and I seen plenty) EVER rimlock. I might try it some day to see if I can find the stupidity somewhere in me and load a round so it will remlock. Its the only way I see it happening...

You don't have to be a "darn fool idgit" to get rimlock in a P32.
I had rimlock happen in my P32 and I didn't "loads a 7.65Br ontop of another in a magazine with the rim of the top round behind the rim of a lower round."
If you use jhp with their shorter OAL in the P32 without a spacer in the magazine rimlock can happen.

If you use fmj in the P32 rimlock is much less likely to happen but still possible because the 32 round unlike the 380 round has a rim that has a larger diameter than the cartridge case if the rounds in the magazine get jostled enough to bounce the rim of one cartrige over the next round.
http://www.1bad69.com/gallery/GunStuff/kel-tec/rimlock/dcp01853.jpg

Boris bush
August 10, 2010, 08:02 PM
Maybe my problem is I do not use a fancy smancy capacity extender on mine. I tested hollowpoints in my P32 and found expansion unreliable and when it did penetration went out the window. In the 100 or so various hollowpoints I tried, I never had a single rimlock.

Like I said. Only gun I ever seen rimlock was a 1891 mosin nagant.

I only carry real CIP spec 7.65Br in mine. Even the snappy Fiocchi 60 grain hollowpoint that makes corbon look like a softball load would not penetrate enough.

If anyone thinks the magical properties of 380 over a same powered 7.65Br will make you a better defended person, then confidence is everthing when it comes to weapons skills. If someone needs that fuzzy feeling the 380 gives them, then use it. Just realize that CIP spec 7.65Br has the same "power" as them 9mm Kurz rounds most think will work better.......

valorius
August 10, 2010, 08:14 PM
So you fired 100 whole hollowpoints out of one single firearm, and came to the conclusion that rimlock is a non issue?

.380 projectiles are bigger and heavier, and can be driven at least as fast as .32acp, if not faster.

Those are all very real tangible reasons why one can say a ".380 is better than a .32 for defense."

Boris bush
August 10, 2010, 08:44 PM
valorius

I get what you are saying. I have seen some pretty stout 380 loads that will best any 7.65 Br load. They were Milsurp Santa Barbra rounds made for military use that had a "soft point" These rounds are wicked! The truncated flat point will make a nice wound and penetration is not an issue. Only problem is they are nowhere to be found anymore.

When you stoke that 380 with domestic 380 ammo, hollowpoint or ball, the 7.65Br equals it with CIP spec ammo. No beatin' around the bush about it.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=338777

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=452046

compared to

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=141679

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=638305

Bonus for me is I have a P32 and my brother has a P3AT. Shoot some real ammo in the P32 and there is no difference in feel between the two unless I shoot some SAAMI specd ammo. If I keep it real there is no difference. We even shot us a few critters that like to make nests in the straw in the barns. Shots are close and there is no difference in how either one works. I even tested some ninja rounds called extremeshok in my P32 because I am a curious kind of guy. On raccoons they work awesome. Best killing rounds I fired from my P32. Used 11 rounds from the two packs I bought and kept one for keepsake. By used I mean killed 11 raccoons with them. My test medium is a little different than most folks.

380, meh, it has no real advantage if you pick your ammo right and keep that SAAMI crud on the shelves and not buy it.....

christcorp
August 10, 2010, 08:53 PM
I've been shooting 32acp for about 20+ years. The ONLY time I've every had a rimlock, was when I was younger and didn't know any better, and took some foolish advice from people that loaded their magazines with different rounds. I.e. Some people say they like to load a Hollow point in the chamber and 2 FMJ behind it in the magazine. Then followed with Hollow Points again. This is such foolishness. When I've kept the SAME ammunition, from the SAME BOX, in the magazine, I've NEVER EVER had a Rim lock. And when I've mixed ammo; even in so called "Non-Rimlock" rounds; including 45acp and 9mm, those are the times I've had feeding issues. Might not be called rimlock, but the same exact issue happened. it didn't feed correctly. But since I've grown up and stopped pretending I was preparing for gun fights and going to have 5 gang members shooting at me behind a dumpster, and I started loading magazines with the same ammo; INCLUDING BUFFALO-BORE; I've not had one rimlock or feeding error because of the way the bullets were seated in the magazine.

usp9
August 10, 2010, 09:21 PM
Rimlock has little to nothing to do with how the rounds are loaded. It has everything to do with magazine design, excess space, case shape and length of the ammo. Some guns are prone to rimlock, and some aren't, regardless of the user or loading ability. It's no big mystery.

kokapelli
August 10, 2010, 10:02 PM
Rimlock has little to nothing to do with how the rounds are loaded. It has everything to do with magazine design, excess space, case shape and length of the ammo. Some guns are prone to rimlock, and some aren't, regardless of the user or loading ability. It's no big mystery.
Unlike the Seecamp that was designed to work only with the Silvertip jhp the P32 was designed to be able to handle both the longer OAL fmj cartridge as well as the shorter jhp cartridge but that means it has more front toback space in the magazine making it more suseptible to rimlock with shorter jhp ammo.

Kel-Tec did come out with a shim to fill the the extra space in the back of the magazine.

The only problem is with the shim installed fmj ammo would not fit into the magazine.

There is an easy fix though, just carry an extra magazine without the shim installed for fmj.

Ben86
August 10, 2010, 10:19 PM
Kel-Tec did come out with a shim to fill the the extra space in the back of the magazine.

The only problem is with the shim installed fmj ammo would not fit into the magazine.

There is an easy fix though, just carry an extra magazine without the shim installed for fmj.

That sounds like an unimaginable thing to have to do to a gun you rely on for SD.

kokapelli
August 10, 2010, 10:28 PM
That sounds like an unimaginable thing to have to do to a gun you rely on for SD.
Not at all, it worked very well.

gym
August 10, 2010, 10:29 PM
It sounds like something you might contract in Bangkok. i never met anyone who complained about this rimlock subject before. Is it unique to small caliber semi auto rounds?
I have a 32 seacamp, I carry it as a bug, I know a couple who had to use them. They are only good close up maybe 5-7 feet, otherwise under preassure without a laser, because of the small barrel length and lack of sights, you are likelly to miss hitting a vital area. Maybe with a ppk's it would make more sense, but then you may as well use a 380, which I carried for almost 20 years in NYC. There are too many concepts that come into play here. One is you really want to keep distance "if you can" when in a gunfight. I will "back up" if I sense that something is about to happen and I am within a few feet of the threat. The problem with the seacamp type gun, is if you must get some more distance between you and the target, the gun is more difficult to get accurate shots off with, and it is not a smooth shooting pistol, it's a belly gun. All these "compromise guns" are exactlly that. So again if you want to protect yourself from someone sticking a knife in you while you are waiting for them to drop, a 32 is your gun. In an apartment in Brooklyn, a dear friend was forced to shoot a large woman running at him during a domestic disturbance with a butcher knife,with his 38, he had no choice and was cleared, but she knicked him anyway, and he got off 3 or 4,all hits, it's been a while since I thought about this one, before she fell on him. I just don't understand why anyone would pick a 32 over other better choices. Shot placement is great if you have time to place the shots, sometimes you have to draw and fire as fast as possible, hopefully never, but if you ever have the misfortune of having to do so, much of the technical stuff goes out the window, and it comes down to speed , awareness, and going against your natural moral fiber. No one "wants" to shoot anyone, and sometimes these discussions get too analytical instead of practical. Stay safe

Manco
August 10, 2010, 10:57 PM
This is a false comparison IMO. You're comparing an apple to an orange.

Compare a .32acp ball round to a .380acp ball round, and the .380 out penetrates the .32 while also making a bigger hole.

Your point is valid in and of itself, but would only be relevant if my intention were to compare the .32 ACP and .380 ACP calibers in the most general terms. However, that is not the case. I only meant to give a sense of perspective in expressing a preference for a certain type of load in a smaller caliber over a different type of load in even a larger caliber. This illustrates my view of the importance of bullet type, load selection, and penetration (it's not all about caliber or energy, but what you do with it and what the target requires).

In this case, the .32 ACP loads would out-penetrate the .380 ACP JHP loads, and I think that the popularity of the latter and the fact that it is larger and more powerful makes the comparison all the more interesting (i.e. choosing a more powerful caliber but a bullet type that makes it less effective). In fairness to .380 ACP, personally I would take .380 ACP ball rounds over either of these two other loads, but for the purposes of this discussion, it is not as interesting. Others who can shoot .32 ACP better, however, may have the opposite preference, and that's OK, too.

Comparing JHP to JHP, the .380 still out penetrates the .32 while also expanding to a MUCH larger diameter in the top designs (There is no Corbon DPX+P in .32acp)

That's true, too, but I wasn't trying to prove that .32 ACP was better than .380 ACP, which would require apples-to-apples comparisons to be fair. I was deliberately trying to find mismatched examples to show performance overlap in terms of terminal ballistics requirements for human targets.

valorius
August 11, 2010, 12:07 AM
I understand what you're saying.

A .32acp user who has some high performance FN 7.65mm jacketed flat nose ammo (such as the box sitting on the desk before me as i type) is definitely going to get deeper penetration than a .380 user packing hollowpoints.

But then, that is true of many self defense hollowpoints in most calibers. Most of them have designed penetration depths of about 12-15"

Mp7
August 11, 2010, 06:09 AM
From german wiki:

Vor, während und nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg gehörte die Walther PP in zahlreichen Ländern zur Polizei- und Behördenbewaffnung (..). Bei Militär gehörte sie als Offizierspistole zur Ordonnanzbewaffnung.

B4, during and after WW2 the PP was issued in numerous federal states for police. Military issued it to officers and their staff.

Wegen der terminalballistisch unbefriedigenden Leistung des meist für den Polizei- und Militärdienst verwendeten Kalibers 7,65 x 17 mm wurden die „Waltherchen“, wie sie von vielen Beamten des Polizeidienstes genannt wurden, nach 1972 aus dem deutschen Polizeidienst ausgesondert.

Because of unsatisfactory terminal ballistics of the most used Caliber .32 the "lil Walther" as many called it, was taken from service after 1972.

kokapelli
August 11, 2010, 09:12 AM
Rimlock has little to nothing to do with how the rounds are loaded. It has everything to do with magazine design, excess space, case shape and length of the ammo. Some guns are prone to rimlock, and some aren't, regardless of the user or loading ability. It's no big mystery.
Completely incorrect! Only one thing causes rim lock in 32 acp and that is the oversized rim on the cartridge.

If you used the exact same type of magazine in 45 acp or 9mm and with all different length cartridges you will not get rim lock because the cartridge rims on the 45 and 9 are larger diameters than the cartridge as the rim on the 32 acp cartridge is.

PRM
August 11, 2010, 10:01 AM
Lets see, from this and other threads, I've learned:

1. The caliber is really no good!

2. It will only bruise and infuriate an attacker!

3. It is not reliable as far as function!

4. They make good trot line sinkers!

With opinionated statements like that, I can understand why people don't want these guns. Guess I should be grateful for the negative rants, I got a super great deal on this one. So far I have shot around 300 rounds of various FMJ and hollow points with no malfunctions. It's even proved to be a little tack driver.

usp9
August 11, 2010, 10:22 AM
Completely incorrect! Only one thing causes rim lock in 32 acp and that is the oversized rim on the cartridge.

That's why I said "case shape". Read, then react.

If the rim were the only cause, then all .32acp pistols would have rimlock, but they don't, do they. Rimlock is a result of several events that cause the rounds to lock together. Some pistol mags work very reliably, the Walthers and Seecamps for example, while others can allow rimlock no matter how careful the mags are loaded... it simply doesn't matter. Some European ammo is less prone to rimlock, some American made is more prone... likely due to the shape of the lower case. It doesn't always matter whether the bullet was a larger round nose or a smaller HP. Some guns are prone, by poor design, to allow rimlock to occur. Most are fixable by either a magazine modification or a change of ammo, or both.

Guns and more
August 11, 2010, 10:31 AM
Like maybe multiple assailants or a much larger person who takes it away from you when it fails and either beats your head in with it or proceeds to empty the mag in your head.
If that's the case be happy you only have a .32. They may not kill you.

Now back to reality.

I don't know of anyone willing to take a .32 shot. For years it was what the cops carried.
My hesitation would be this. Why carry a .32 when there are .380's exactly the same size (or smaller)? Maybe some 9mm's too.
If I carried a .32, I'd use FMJ since I'd want penetration over expansion.

I won't buy a .32 because I don't want to keep yet another size ammo, but if someone gave me a Seecamp in .32 I'd be smilin'.

kokapelli
August 11, 2010, 11:04 AM
In these tests at The Box O" Truth The 380 clearly outperforms the 32 acp so what is the logic in using a 32 instead of a 380?
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm

PRM
August 11, 2010, 11:17 AM
The .380 out performs the .32
The 9mm out performs the .380
The .45 out performs the 9mm
The 44 magnum out performs the 45
The 12 guage out performs the 44 magnum
The high powered rifle can out perform a shotgun under certain parameters
A 105 MM trumps the above.........

All argumentative, and can take this to all kinds of extremes - the original post was about whether or not the .32 would do the job. Not what was better.

Manco
August 11, 2010, 11:28 AM
From german wiki:

Because of unsatisfactory terminal ballistics of the most used Caliber .32 the "lil Walther" as many called it, was taken from service after 1972.

I wonder what this means exactly, though. :scrutiny: If it means that they expect the bullets to still be lethal after passing through hard barriers, then it is a valid criticism--.380 ACP and 9mm ball rounds certainly have a greater penetration margin than .32 ACP, and nobody is denying that. Most shootings are still just through clothing or nothing but air, however, and in these cases (which many people care about exclusively with regard to personal defense), there should be little difference in effectiveness between these calibers, especially before JHP bullets came into common use in 9mm pistols. The difference in bullet diameter is only 15%, and .32 ACP gets sufficient penetration even by modern standards, as long as it doesn't have to penetrate hard barriers first.

easyg
August 11, 2010, 11:29 AM
...the original post was about whether or not the .32 would do the job. Not what was better.
And the answer is:

The .32 MIGHT do the job.

But most likely it will fail to quickly stop a human aggressor.


Overall, the .32 is just too darn weak for me to trust my life to it.

Manco
August 11, 2010, 11:49 AM
In these tests at The Box O" Truth The 380 clearly outperforms the 32 acp

Well, first of all, that is an extremely poor testing methodology they're using, and they don't test many different loads, either. I'm not dissing or dismissing The Box O' Truth website as a whole because it has some excellent tests as well as a lot of interesting information, but I give absolutely no credence to their water jug tests (I guess they just don't "hold water" with me ;)).

so what is the logic in using a 32 instead of a 380?

People keep asking this question repeatedly, but regardless of the answer, the main question of this thread is whether .32 ACP is "respectable" for defense. In my opinion, anything that can penetrate the intended target sufficiently is respectable, so .32 ACP is (or can be with the right loads).

As for why not .380 ACP instead, maybe somebody shoots .32 ACP better. Those who scoff at such a notion should note that I feel little difference between 9mm and .40 S&W, and shake my head in confusion over those who think that .40 S&W has more recoil than even 10mm. I sure don't feel it, but at the same time, I have no right to question how others perceive things--I simply take them at their word. Pistols of the same size may also have an additional round or two of capacity with .32 ACP, which some might prefer over having a slightly larger round. There may be other reasons I can't think of at the moment.

razorback2003
August 11, 2010, 12:00 PM
Spotlighters use 22 rifles on deer. 22's work on deer when you hit them in the head.

I wouldn't mind a nice Seecamp 32 as a gun to carry when I couldn't hide anything else.

I have figured out ways to hide my 38 snub Airweight in all types of clothing...from suits to shorts. I have a pocket holster and ankle holster. With those two, I can carry my gun anywhere and no one knows. That snub goes bang everytime I pull the trigger. If I have a bad round, I squeeze again and it goes off on the next cylinder.

Most 32's I'd have a hard time trusting. They are fun to play with on the range. I do like the Seecamps. Those guns are fine craftsmanship. If you couldn't carry a snub, I'd carry a Seecamp and load it with quality ammo. It wouldn't be my first choice to conceal like my 38, but it is better than a 22 for a super hideout gun.

PRM
August 11, 2010, 12:01 PM
Well, first of all, that is an extremely poor testing methodology they're using, and they don't test many different loads, either. I'm not dissing or dismissing The Box O' Truth website as a whole because it has some excellent tests as well as a lot of interesting information, but I give absolutely no credence to their water jug tests (I guess they just don't "hold water" with me ).-Manco

Got to agree on your take with "Box of Truth," when you admit you had a squib load (defective round) ~ why would they flaunt that as a detrimental indictment of the caliber.


The gun had a weak report and the round was obviously a squib load.

It actually bounced off the blue jean material and only made a dent in it.

This is it.

I am obviously not going to be carrying any of that stuff for social purposes. ~ Box of Truth

Makes you wonder where the bias is? Would the author dis their caliber of choice because of a badly manufactured round. Seems the credibility issue is not in the round.

Guns and more
August 11, 2010, 01:07 PM
Because of unsatisfactory terminal ballistics of the most used Caliber .32 the "lil Walther" as many called it, was taken from service after 1972.
But I'll bet that they didn't go to 44 magnums, which have better terminal ballistics, so there are other factors involved.

Ledgehammer
August 11, 2010, 01:21 PM
I have keltec P32 with about 400 rds through it. Not one single failure of any kind.
That being said I load it with 73gr fiocchi round nose. Plus it holds 7. That's one round more than the .380.

Not long ago at one of our local bars there was a fight that spilled outside. One of he guys pulled out his .32 and shot the other from about 20 ft away. He hit the guy 6 times and he lived. He was done fighting after the first hit though.

I don't view my goal in a sd situation as killng anyone. I want to stop the attack. 7+1 from my p32 will do that. What's left I will handle by hand if necessary.

kokapelli
August 11, 2010, 01:25 PM
I have keltec P32 with about 400 rds through it. Not one single failure of any kind.
That being said I load it with 73gr fiocchi round nose. Plus it holds 7. That's one round more than the .380.

Not long ago at one of our local bars there was a fight that spilled outside. One of he guys pulled out his .32 and shot the other from about 20 ft away. He hit the guy 6 times and he lived. He was done fighting after the first hit though.

I don't view my goal in a sd situation as killng anyone. I want to stop the attack. 7+1 from my p32 will do that. What's left I will handle by hand if necessary.
I have the extended 7 round mags for my P-3AT.

valorius
August 11, 2010, 02:03 PM
Because of unsatisfactory terminal ballistics of the most used Caliber .32 the "lil Walther" as many called it, was taken from service after 1972.
It was the massacre at the Berlin olympics that caused the .32 to be discarded in favor of 9mm. It was that event that led directly to the design of both the HK P7 and the Sig Sauer P6, and the adoption of the 9mm parabellum as the standard police caliber in West Germany.

The problem with saying "My 8 .32s will stop an attack" is that you are discounting the other guy isn't going to sit there and just let you empty a mag into him. If he's got a knife, he's charging and stabbing the poo out of you while youre shooting him full of icepick holes. If he's got a gun, he's shooting back. Odds are he will have something bigger than you have.

You want to trade gun fire with your .32 when you're getting shot at by a .38spl or 9mm?

To me, a .380 with quality ammo and a good sighting system is a hell of a lot better defense vs a determined and armed attacker.

Ledgehammer
August 11, 2010, 02:41 PM
The .32 is easier to shoot accurately and I have a larger capacity.

We al know the knife weilding gorilla man lives in our nightmares mostly. Look I'm not talking about taking the .32 into battle with me but it will back somebody off and give me time to either run or a huge advantage when it comes to hand to hand. If somebody is close enough to stab me I'm sure I can hit them with a full mag of .32 acp and the get to safety. The gun is only one part of my SD training

no I don't want to go against a 38 or 9mm with my .32, but I wouldn't want to with a .380 either. Neither of those calibers are gunfight guns.

valorius
August 11, 2010, 02:47 PM
Knife wielding guerrilla men grow on trees in my city, unfortunately. :(

Ledgehammer
August 11, 2010, 03:27 PM
I hear ya - there are parts of our Beautiful city that I would prefer an AK honestly.
Yea I hear about those knife weilding gorilla men all the time in the news. What city do you live in? I'll remember to pack my tactical load out fir the trip. Haha

Manco
August 11, 2010, 05:05 PM
It was the massacre at the Berlin olympics that caused the .32 to be discarded in favor of 9mm. It was that event that led directly to the design of both the HK P7 and the Sig Sauer P6, and the adoption of the 9mm parabellum as the standard police caliber in West Germany.

I bet that much like the FBI's decision to switch calibers (initially to 10mm) following the 1986 Miami shootout rather than exploring what they and the ammunition manufacturers could accomplish with 9mm (not to mention different tactics and long arms), German authorities made at least a partly emotional decision as a result of the weight of the tragedy; this also attempted to place some of the blame on the caliber being used. Otherwise, they probably would have stuck with .32 ACP for a while longer (as would the FBI with 9mm).

The problem with saying "My 8 .32s will stop an attack" is that you are discounting the other guy isn't going to sit there and just let you empty a mag into him. If he's got a knife, he's charging and stabbing the poo out of you while youre shooting him full of icepick holes. If he's got a gun, he's shooting back. Odds are he will have something bigger than you have.

You want to trade gun fire with your .32 when you're getting shot at by a .38spl or 9mm?

To me, a .380 with quality ammo and a good sighting system is a hell of a lot better defense vs a determined and armed attacker.

Where we disagree is definitely the magnitude of difference in effectiveness between the various calibers (assuming sufficient penetration). I don't think there's that much difference.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
August 11, 2010, 05:35 PM
Can a .32 ACP CC gun have enough balls to be a respectable defense gun?

I don't know as I would use a black powder pistol for defense purposes, what with all the fire, smoke, slow-loading, etc.

valorius
August 13, 2010, 01:29 PM
Where we disagree is definitely the magnitude of difference in effectiveness between the various calibers (assuming sufficient penetration). I don't think there's that much difference.
I think that you are correct, however the .32acp is an exception, because there is really a dearth of .32acp hollowpoints that get anything near sufficient penetration, and even then expansion tends to barely hit the low .40" range (with barely 8" penetration with most loads). So to get good penetration you're stuck with an icepick wound profile from a FMJ.

Conversely, in .380acp, you can get several JHP designs that will penetrate 10+" while also giving .50+" range expansion. Some give well beyond that level. In all the tests ive seen Corbon .380 DPX+P gives between .645"-70+" expansion, which is pretty amazing for a .380.

By going to .380, i also lose the rimlock issues i was having with buffalo bore hard cast 75gr flat nose rounds in my KT P32. If those rounds would have worked reliably in my P32, i'd probably still have the gun, and my LCP would still be sitting on a shelf in some gun store.

Manco
August 13, 2010, 10:08 PM
Conversely, in .380acp, you can get several JHP designs that will penetrate 10+" while also giving .50+" range expansion. Some give well beyond that level. In all the tests ive seen Corbon .380 DPX+P gives between .645"-70+" expansion, which is pretty amazing for a .380.

OK, we mainly differ in the importance we give to penetration versus expansion. From your point of view, what you say here makes perfect sense, and is valid. But from my point of view, I'd take every additional inch I could get over 10", even if I had to sacrifice expansion altogether. It just seems to me that bullets quite often penetrate less in real shootings than they do in gelatin tests.

valorius
August 13, 2010, 10:46 PM
I like to get a good compromise of both. However, if i can only have one or the other, like you, i want penetration (hence my use of Buff.Bore hard cast flat nose in my P32)

I'm definitely going to get some of the Buff.Bore hard cast flat nose for my .380 too, for trail hiking and such. I spend some time up my uncles place up the mountains, there are some critters up there that would not be impressed in the slightest with .380 JHPs.

However, here in the city, the nasties i face will be of the 2 legged variety, and - most likely- i will be faced with a frontal engagement. In such an engagement, 10% of penetration is more than enough, even against a jolly old fat guy.

If i find myself facing a situation where i have to make quartering or profile shots, i might regret my choice of DPX, but then, if i do have a frontal engagement, which i again think is the most likely scenario, i want the 100% expansion the Corbon DPX .380 has demonstrated that it's capable of in gel testing, because 10" pen. will be plenty in that scenario.

And honestly, i think the DPX's copper cutting petals will do a heck of a lot of damage in their own right.

But it's all a compromise. Like all things in life.

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