NEED anti-cop tactics!!!!


September 17, 2003, 08:50 PM
Don't worry, its not what you may be thinking given the title ;)

About 5 min ago a buddy of mine on our local police force called and asked if i would vollenteer to be a badguy in a bunch of simulations tomorow afternoon. i havent been given many particulars on the sim, but its indoor against officers using their service weapons with nonleathal bullets. any of you LEO types able to help me out with this?? i need any and all info to use against them. i have some pretty decent experience at urban paintball combat (which is what i will be shooting back with). thats my situation. i'm VERY tempted to call back and ask if i can use my own sidearm, but as a minor, i somewhat doubt that will be possible. any help would be great!

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Doctor Wu
September 17, 2003, 08:58 PM
Your paintball background will help you greatly, in fact you may be better prepared than the cops you face.
I don't know what else to tell you except that cops love to hear donut jokes. :p

Brian Dale
September 17, 2003, 09:02 PM
I don't know anything, but if you find people not wanting to touch this topic in public with a ten-foot pole, might you ask that they PM or email you privately? Or email a friend of yours on the Department, if the Dept has a "Bad Guys" team coach?

{edited to add:}
About your sidearm and your being a minor: it's not like you'll be without supervision :evil: - do you have to be supervised by a parent in your state? However, they might want anybody you hit to be paint-marked for all to see in the after-exercise session.

September 17, 2003, 09:05 PM
Just be sure to hold your gun sideways and use the term "cracker" a lot.:evil:

September 17, 2003, 09:05 PM
its tomorow afternoon, not thata much time. why wouldn't anyone want to touch this topic? i see no problem with it, but if that is the case, PM's would be great too.

Brian Dale
September 17, 2003, 09:16 PM
It's just that anybody in the world - good, bad, or psycho - can read stuff on the 'net. Maybe I worry too much. I hope it goes well for ya. :)

September 17, 2003, 09:17 PM
true about the hits w/ marker being visable, but it would be sooo much more cool to go after em with my beretta 92 and possible my uncles Cx4!

September 17, 2003, 09:17 PM
Use tactics that work anywhere else. Do something unexpected.

If you think they expect someone who knows a little urban tactics do something insanely dumb.

For example when the cops come through the door throw something at his head and launch into a flying kung-fu kick. It isnt good tactics but it will be unexpected, nobody ever expects kung-fu :evil:

September 17, 2003, 09:24 PM
They have rules to don't. Advantage you, period.

September 17, 2003, 09:24 PM
The biggest thing in roleplaying is staying in the role to TEACH who you are roleplaying for. Its not a rambo and you vs. them.

After he gives you your roll, start thinking like a bad guy! Preplanning on your part is important to be realistic.

Have fun, wear a cup!:what:


4v50 Gary
September 17, 2003, 09:27 PM
Food, bring plenty of food and feed them first. Slow them down both physically & mentally. If your lucky, you can walk up and 'cuff them while they're napping.

In the SF Bay Area, the top SWAT team got whupped by the Postal Service. The mail carriers & clerks knew their stuff better, trained and played harder and whupped them.

September 17, 2003, 09:34 PM
Krispy Kreme donuts laced with Pepto Bismol? :D

September 17, 2003, 09:42 PM
They are using Simunitions and you are using Paintballs? :scrutiny:

Wear thick clothing, good eye and head protection, and a CUP!!

Biggest thing about indoor scenarios is to stay out of the "Funnel of Death" The Cops are probably going to be coming in to you, so use doorways against them.

Do not sit still after making contact. Fire 2-3 shots then move at least 3 feet laterally before firing again.

Keep a cool head. Do not hurt anyone or allow yourself to be hurt. Use the experience to have fun and learn. Hopefully they will havethe same attitude.


September 17, 2003, 09:53 PM
Play defensive. I doubt you'll have to make it to a flag so you can play tunnel rat and wait them out.

Also, it's likely you'll be outnumbered and they may know it. Get good position and look for the bottlenecks and high ground if available. If you move you had better know another good position or you'll get caught in the open and/or get flanked. Scout it all out.

Their mindset should be zero casualties and apprehend/eliminate the hostile. Your goal should be to teach them how dangerous one man can be. A paintball gun can hold a lot of ammo and can be an analog to an assault can suppress them a long time. If you don't run out of ammo they may be prompted to come to you. Pick them off hard. Force them to be vulnerable. If cornered, spray like a suicidal, PCP laden psychopath..........

September 17, 2003, 10:29 PM
If cornered, spray like a suicidal, PCP laden psychopath..........

LMAO, i plan too :evil: i just got off the phone with a buddy who will loan me his AKA Viking (nice FAST gun to the layperson). i think this will be one hell of a time.

on sim bullets, what are they? will they hurt considerably? i'm going to be wearing heavy BDU pants, a cup, flack jacket and anything else i can get my hands on, but am i being overly paranoid??

September 17, 2003, 10:36 PM
A few points.

1. USE COVER. There should be furniture in the rooms, or at least barriers simulating furniture. Use these to your advantage.

2. REARRANGE THE ROOMS. If you find that the rooms are laid out in a certain way, it's a cinch bet that the cops have used this layout before, and know where things will be positioned. Rearrange the furniture, with an eye to moving from cover to cover.

3. DO THE UNEXPECTED. If you're in a shoot-house with several rooms, why not ambush them as they come into the first room? You can nail one or two with quick shots, then retreat to another position (hopefully prepared in advance) to cover the exit from that room. You might take out half-a-dozen this way.

4. USE HEIGHT. If there's furniture like a bedroom cupboard, or something you can get up on, do so! When cops come into a room, they're searching at threat level, and if you're up higher, they may not spot you immediately, particularly if the cupboard is on the same wall as the door. You can then get a clear shot down at them.

5. LET THE COPS GET ENTANGLED WITH EACH OTHER. If their tactics aren't good, they'll be crowding one another through the door. Use this to your advantage, and hose the mob! If they are using good tactics, though, they'll be separating as they come through the door, and your job will be much harder.

As for protection, wear a face-mask (like a hockey goalkeeper's) and eye protection, and I'd suggest gloves to protect your hands. The rest of your clothing sounds OK.

Have fun! :D

September 17, 2003, 11:10 PM
Put your clothes on backwards and inside out, walk and talk backwards too. Tell them it's all the new rage. Use the sayings from that crappy asian video game that was translated wrong...what was that called?

AJ Dual
September 17, 2003, 11:16 PM
If the layout and lighting allows, try laying in the dark or at least a darker area right along the edge where a wall meets the floor away from any obvious barracades or cover, right in the open except for lighting, especially along a wall where the entry way the opposing team will enter. If there's no dark corners or walls, try standing right behind or directly next to a bright light source like a bright window where seeing you past the light might take a second.

It's worked well on more than one occasion when playing Airsoft, FWIW...

Also, if there's going to be a scenario where they kick in the door etc. instead of hiding, just crouch down 5-6 yards directly in front of it and unload on them as they come in. That's the last thing I'd expect.

But I will second any advice to wear as much protection gear as possible. Simunitions make paintballs look like marshmallows tossed by a baby.

September 17, 2003, 11:23 PM
I've trained with simunition before and it HURTS if you get hit without some protection. If they don't provide the simunition protective gear use a paintball mask and gloves. Be certain that the throat is protected. A cup is a great idea. You should not need a flack jacket, but you'd be startled how much a simple chest protetor of cardboard under a light shirt will help. That's front and back too. The simunition won't hurt more than a hard hitting paint ball, but it won't hurt less.

Drink lots of cold water to stay hydrated and prevent overheating. Use an insulated container with a drinking straw so that you don't have to move your mask and drink to stay cool even in the shoot house.

Hide, move, change tactics. Most folks don't have any patience and leave concealment before needed. Practice counting to 200 fast and then don't budge until you've counted that far. Be patient. You're the hunter waiting for the game to come to you. Surrender without a fight and then try to take their weapon. Shoot lots. Have fun.

September 17, 2003, 11:34 PM
Change your vertical position, see if you can get into a vent shaft or up on top of somethign (like push a bookshelf near the door and crouch on top of the bookshelf). Nail'em in the back as they pass you.

Going prone at a corner, so only the muzzle, part of your head and one arm are exposed should work pretty good too against the first guy in the door. Spray for the knees, the shield probably wont go down that low. You might get lucky and get more than a few.


Brian Dale
September 17, 2003, 11:40 PM
Never having played ... would a sweatshirt and sweatpants under the BDUs be a good idea or a bad one? They're bulky, but they will soak up some impact.

September 18, 2003, 12:09 AM
You guys are giving me some awesome ideas. just got done preping my equipment, every pball gun i own is ready to rock n roll. the tactics y'al have mentioned will be put to use where possible and i'll let you know how it turns out. i plan to take a lot of pics, so i may post those if they turn out decent.

On dark rooms, how do i handle those?? suppose they hit the lights on me? never encountered this situation before, and my nightvision scope will be mostly worthless in tight quarters.

September 18, 2003, 12:21 AM
make them come to you through multiple doorway channels

engage back from your door

they will most likely come in and fan out to control the room
but yer not in that room

a Viking rips at 15-30 rounds a second
and dumps 200 round hoppers in under 10 seconds

control your fanning fingers

givem sweeping bursts and retreat to the next door

hit em when they reach where you last shot from

Vikings rule!

September 18, 2003, 01:05 AM
If you don't have a cup or can't find one, stuffing a shirt down your pants in your...sensitive :o region works too.

Like the other poster said, you are there for them, to roleplay, not to go fully tactical and gun them down (depending upon their scenarios). If they just started the curriculum, be a good training partner and follow their rules. You're there as a guest. When they get to more advanced scenarios when they're supposed to think on their own, then you can be more creative :)

Being outnumbered against two cops that were constantly communicating put me in a world of pain, even if you happen to have more hours of training under your Wilderness 5-stitch 1.75" Instructor's Belt.

Simunitions. The pain is only temporary, but the chicks dig the scars.

September 18, 2003, 01:45 AM
You only need a couple of things: special fx movie squibs with blood packs and a remote trigger. They bust in, hit you with simunition, squibs go off, fake blood goes everywhere. With a little acting you could have them crapping their BDU's.

September 18, 2003, 01:52 AM
You're going to be 23 shortly, you're no more of a minor than I am. :D

All I can say is, try to keep your cool and "take your time, in a hurry" as Wyatt Earp was rumored to have said. :D

Believe me it works, you try to unload that paintball gun as fast as you can pull the trigger and you won't hit a thing, but if you stay reasonably calm and really desire to take out that other guys you'll do alot better than if you unload gangsta style. :)

Chuck Dye
September 18, 2003, 02:05 AM
Had a similar opportunity once-I did only one thing that made any impression on the good guys. I set "bombs" on trip wires: three empty soft drink cans tied loosely together at each end of some monofilament line, each trio of cans on either side of a doorway or hall intersection. In the debriefing I was asked what the "heck" the cans were supposed to be. I answered "Anything you would like to imagine, from just the empty cans they were, to home grown chlorine generators, to claymores, to case lots of C-4." I was rewarded with several seconds of absolute silence which was very rewarding, indeed! If you have the opportunity, go for it!

September 18, 2003, 02:37 AM
A good Blind spot is on a high book case right next to an entryway. In MOUNT training, almost half of a rifle squad got nailed by being too focused on only on what was in front and side of them. They never looked in the high spots next to the door.

But just don't nail the first one through the door thou, if they use a stack and file in let a few in and then start spraying. You'll get nailed but it would be a good lesson for them. But if they know their ****** and come in twos then the most that you will get is one of them before getting wacked.

That' ll learn'em, but again do go Rambo, teach them.

The more we sweat in peace the less we bleed in war.

September 18, 2003, 03:38 AM
1) Verify that a protocol is in place to ensure that no one has any live ammunition or weapons in the exercise site and that this protocol is administered by no fewer than two people who are not participating in the exercise. This includes not only firearms but chemical agent, edged and impact weapons, and flash-sound diversionary devices.

2) Know what the control words are in the event that your enthusiasm is unappreciated by the participating officers who forget they're in an exercise and use physical control techniques which could result in a sprain, contusions, abrasions, a fracture or loss of consciousness.

3) Make sure medical assistance is available, if not on site. The officers will be covered by workers comp but who pays if you get hurt as a 'volunteer'?

4) Realistic training is important but SAFETY is paramount. There have been numerous instances of officers participating as role players who have been seriously or fatally injured due to flaws in or the absence of safety protocols.

September 18, 2003, 08:19 AM
Used to play opfor with SRT in the army.

During building clearings, I'd climb up on top of wall lockers.
Tuck and cover when the flashbang came through the door
and pop the good guys on their way back out after they
had "cleared" the room.

All newbie SRT guys always learned to look up after dealing
with the dog boy!

Yes, this was the army, the Lt in charge of SRT training
didn't simulate much. He liked it as real as could be achived
without actually killing anyone. We used bb and pellet guns, and
grenade simulators for flashbangs, cause they're cheaper.

mixups between opfor and SRT got really ugly at times.
Good training.

September 18, 2003, 08:30 AM
All the above plus:

Unscrew lightbulbs, to make them adapt to the dark, then blind them with a surefire flashlight. (Bwa ha ha ha)

arrange furniture to be obstructions, improvise barricades.

setup red herrings: a barricaded door to slow them down, while you snipe from elsewhere, noisemaker opposite your position, and so on.

Above all, strike and fade, strike and fade, wear their numbers down till their only choice is to "dust off and nuke them from orbit", or whatever the heck Hicks said in Aliens.

Your chances without prep time are probably null, but at least you can remind them of humility. :)

September 18, 2003, 08:44 AM
try 50 gal drums of napalm burried at 45 degree angles with 1 lb blackpowder charges at the base.

September 18, 2003, 08:49 AM
Ambush them in the parking lot.............

That will wake them up and show them what "Taken by surprise" really means.


September 18, 2003, 09:07 AM
It's a bit of a pity you don't have more time to prepare but:

Impact armor: Wear it. Anything semirigid that will spread the impact over a large area helps.
A couple of months ago I ran into some articles on what the well-dressed protester might be wearing under his jacket.
Try and on for size.

ErikM :evil:

September 18, 2003, 10:24 AM
Perhaps a no-shoot situation? Draw your cell phone/wallet from concealment... Not original, I know, but important none the less.


September 18, 2003, 11:00 AM
Regarding the cell phone, Don't do it, See that picture of my hand up there? I was holding a cordless :evil:

September 18, 2003, 11:14 AM
Put a box of fresh Krispy Kremes in the center of the room.

Stand by the door.

Shoot them in the back as they bend over to grab a donut.

They'll never notice you because all their attention will be focused on the food.

September 18, 2003, 11:19 AM
Marbles - floor.
Vasoline - floor.
WD-40 - floor.
Motor oil - floor.
Fishing line - ankle to knee level.
Air horn - hand held.
OC spray.
Wood wedge - door.

F with em'

September 18, 2003, 12:22 PM
Bulky swaetshirts and pants are fine for simunitions. Head gear, eye protection, gloves, cup, extra socks, etc to dampen the hits you will get.

Ear protection if they will be using flashbangs is good as well having dark safetyglasses when the bangs go off, if they use them.

Horizontal is good, stay higher than their line of sight if possible. They'll look up but not immediately upon entering which should give you the first two through the door anyway.

Use rooms that are ajoining and can be moved through from one to the other without hallways having to be breached/used [ avoid common areas ].

If there are stairwells, use them to your advantage as well. Take the high ground and give them no quarters gettign up the stairs. Watch out for the flashbangs if they will be using them. They'll probably throw them into the room before entering. If one goes off, get the muzzle on the doorway and spit em out till they retreat. Then move to another position.

Stay away from windows, door entrances. If you have to do it, move quickly and do not linger in these fatal funnels.

The more dynamic and mobile you become, the longer you will survive the scenarios.

Good luck, give us an update as the experience you have and critique it for us.


September 18, 2003, 12:44 PM
Lots of good suggestions here.

Use the restroom before you get started. Even if you don't think you have to go.
Don't just watch the door - look out for windows too.
Don't give them a clear path. Scatter things where they'd have to move to get around - but leave yourself a way out.
If you have an accomplice, try using one person to distract (maybe give up, or pull a suicide by cop) while the other attacks from cover.

Good luck!

September 18, 2003, 01:14 PM
Do you have access to firecrackers? Nothing like some distraction devices of your own.

September 18, 2003, 04:13 PM
Having done this before myself, I'd expect to be told how to behave in each scenario. The trainers should be trying to accomplish something specific.

In one exercise I was shot in the off-wrist and surrendered because that was my role to play. In another I was an unstoppable charging terrorist.

Most important point is to give the officers some valued training, not just recreation or a beating.

For yourself, pay attention to the safety rules and enforce them when you see others violating them. Police officers are as bad as any group I've seen with regards to paintball AD's (maybe worse), not wearing goggles where they need to, and hot range/cold range calls.

September 18, 2003, 05:21 PM
Errr...shoot them before they shoot you, rinse and repeat?

September 18, 2003, 09:13 PM
If they're crazy enough to let you set the scenario...:D

Bring heavy-weight (20-30lb test) fishing line, clear thick shipping tape, "torpedoes" (small firecrackers that pop when you throw them down hard or step on them), and some of those clear glass rocks used in vases....

Apply fishing line in trip wires around entrances & randomly in room. Anything that trips them up & slows them down helps you....

Apply clear glass rocks at corners where team may turn swiftly. Will help them learn the importance of "sure footing"....

Apply "torpedoes" liberally throughout house. Loud noise will keep them on edge & may result in "friendly fire" directed away from you....

Apply clear tape liberally to doorways like spiderweb. If they rush through, they'll be too busy trying to get it off them to see you shooting....

Set up a "fatal funnel" where they have to come to you & you can engage before they clear it. Move the funnel for each exercise....

After the exercise, offer to buy them refreshments. Helps defray the animosity they'll have toward you for wiping them out (& may help you in an "embarassing" LEO situation later down the road)....:evil:

Most importantly... !!!!HAVE FUN!!!!

May 24, 2004, 03:37 PM
How did it turn out anyway? :confused:

4v50 Gary
May 24, 2004, 05:01 PM
We loved being the badguys in the training scenario. Unlike an academy cadet who has to behave, we could "cuss with the best of them" and it was fun not having to follow the law. :) We used specially modified revolvers that had the barrel plugged and the chambers modified so it wouldn't take a live cartridge (we used Speer plastic training bullets but w/out the black plastic projectile).

Now, as to tactics, it all depends on whether you can take pain or not. Resisting with deadly force means you're going to get shot and it's no fun taking a bean bag in the belly. No thanks and you'd better find out what type of "non-lethal" projectiles they'll be using.

BTW, I use to climb walls by wedging my feet against opposing walls (or sometimes had the back to the wall and walked up that way). You may find this useful if the landlord doesn't mind shoeprints going up a hallway. :D

I like the tape idea too. If you can tape a door shut (run duct tape around the door knob and wrap it against something to tie it) that ought to provide some amusement.

Remember it's training for them and suppose to be fun for you. No one is suppose to get hurt or killed. Insist that their safety officer checks at least three times before a weapon is cleared (if real guns are used) to be used. Even after lunch it has to be rechecked).

May 24, 2004, 05:11 PM
I think doing something like this would be a hoot!

R.H. Lee
May 24, 2004, 05:31 PM
Freak them out. As soon as one of them lays a hand on you, drop to the ground, assume a fetal position, start sobbing uncontrollably, scream "Police Brutality" and then fake an epileptic fit.

Hey, it works for me.:D

May 24, 2004, 06:25 PM
As "fun" as force on force or scenario based training is I 'd like to reinforce a couple points:

DO EXACTLY AS YOU ARE INSTRUCTED - roleplayers who go off the trail are a safety and training nightmare. Well done scenarios are carefully designed to reinforce training points. This is one area where you need to suppress your own desires for creativity and abide by the trainers'.

INSIST ON SAFETY - people are killed on a regular basis in this particular training field. A good trainer will not let you use your own gear unless they approve it. Simunitions can cause injury and under the "right" circumstances. death. This is not playing paintball.

ITS NOT ABOUT YOU - good rolepayers are treasures, and your efforts should be recognized. But remember that you are there to serve a specific function, not demonstrate your badassitude. As an instructor the last thing I am going to do is send warriors to certain death in training. If you were working for me I'd tell you upfront that no matter how many times you might nail these guys and girls, their instructions will be to press on regardless. It is easy to score kills as a badguy, but that does nothing. It is far more difficult to push the trainees into winning. I am not talking about taking it easy on them - what I mean is to pose a realistic challenge that forces them to apply appropriate skills. My trainees are not allowed to fail, losing is'nt an option.

Thanks for helping these officers out. You'll have fun, but keep in mind you want them to leave better cops than they arrived as.

May 24, 2004, 07:17 PM
Just a suggestion, but make sure there are 'referees' and make sure the refs explain that your job is to be the bad guy. Go over the rules beforehand and check all the safeties.

I did riot opfor more than a few times, and one of my job was to "mess with their heads". No touchie, all psychological. Well, not all the MP's wanted to calm down after the exercise was over... Be careful, cops are human too and some have tempers.

You're main goal is to let them make mistakes in a situation that won't get them killed or injured. Of course, have fun. But really, try to keep things in the realm of what they're likely to see.

Have fun, and be safe.

May 24, 2004, 07:47 PM
go out and buy yourself a spool of steel finishing leader. its used to make leaders to catch sharks. buy the little crimp things too. its all in the fishing isle. now use you imagination. one across every door way at varying hieghts should make their time navigating a dark house alot of fun. don't be affraid to rig a booby trap or 2. nothing like a chair suspended above a doorway with a trip wire to make it drop to cause a cop to totally forget whats going on.


cops are only suscessful on raids because the perp isn't expecting it and hasn't planned ahead.

May 24, 2004, 08:27 PM
Has anyone else noticed that this tread started in 2003?

Maybe the guy played the game a little too hard?

May 25, 2004, 01:18 AM
Try to 'folsom roll' one of the cops. When you "assume the position" with your hands behind your head and he frisks you, drop prone, quickly. Kick your legs out with one leg in between his, then roll taking the cop down. Then you can move into the mount and let him know how he's doing.


George Hill
May 25, 2004, 02:14 AM
So how did it turn out?

May 25, 2004, 02:17 AM
Paintball grenades!:D In MOUT training, I used 550 cord to tie doors shut and pull pins out of flash-bangs when doors opened. Go high, go low, stay behind the door when they (if they) toss their flash-bangs in, talk gibberish or a foreign language, activley resist if taken down for practice, jump a lone one and use him for a shield, (they never expect that) Use their operational constraints and training against them at every opportunity. Defense is the stronger position by far when prepared, that is why no-knock raids happen at o-dark-thirty! Cut the lights and use NVG's, I was called a 'cheater' so many times for that in MILES training. Yell "HEY" real loud just after you throw a paintball grenade or flash-bang. Some of the funnest training I ever did was as a freshman ROTC cadet, we were the 'terrorists' to the juniors and seniors Spec Ops AT team. Yes, we all eventually 'died', but all the hostages (sophmores) 'died' , too. a loss for the AT team. One actually was knocked out by a flash-bang, and another flash-bang flung me and another cadet out of a cistern we were firing from!:eek:

May 25, 2004, 04:09 AM
Be VERY sure you check with whoever is responsible for making sure those guns are unloaded. I lost a fraternity brother leading up to World Cup Soccor in '94. He was a reserve and was participating in some kind of mass transit hostage takeover. The morning excercise went well. They broke for lunch and when they came back one of the cops didn't unload his service weapon. Ted Brassinga, husband and father was killed in a stupid training accident. Most departments up here in the Bay Area don't use service weapons in this type of training anymore.

May 27, 2004, 10:06 PM
I'm pretty interested to hear how this turned out. Anyone here know BigJake?

buy guns
May 27, 2004, 10:23 PM
guys i think its a little too late to offer advice ;)

buy guns
May 27, 2004, 10:24 PM
jakes last post was on the 25th so that must mean he survived the training.

May 28, 2004, 05:43 PM
Yup. survived, alive and well. i've had some email issues, so i never recived alerts when people responded to this thread, so i forgot about it completely. i wrote about it on my site back when i happened, but since then my site has also fallen by the wayside and i never bothered to continue hosting it. i'll dig through my archives tonight and post all about my police training adventure on here when i find em. thanks for all the help guys. :cool:

buy guns
May 30, 2004, 04:50 PM
any luck finding what you wrote?

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