MAK-90 to AK-47 style 922r Compliance


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snoopy2u
November 13, 2008, 06:48 PM
I'm a newbie - One of the threads I was reading on THR seemed like you guys were knowledgeable and friendly. I could use your input. I recently purchased a 1993 mak-90 norinco import with a milled slant cut receiver. The rifle was purchased with a U.S. made black polymer ak-47 style stock and pistol grip set. I was hoping that the previous owner was smart and kind enough to have made the rifle legal - but - as I opened her up yesterday, all that appears to be done to the rifle was to change out the furniture.

I've read that the Norinco FCG's are very good. Fact, I read that this rifle is an excellent toy in all respects. My FCG has what I beleive you guys call a double tang. With no markings on these FCG peices, can I be certain that they are in fact imported original parts? If not marked by a US manufacturer - how could I tell if they may still be US made? The gas piston has no US mark either.

If I must change out the FCG, and knowing that my receiver is a Norinco milled slant angle, what US makers should I be looking for to replace the imported with? Are there US parts, or US makers that have better quality than others?

Should I change outthe twist spring and the other spring also? do these springs count toward compliance?

I was also noting that, some FCG's for sale had different size pinning holes. Now, I'm real confused. Please guide me to a reputatable US maker that I can rely on. Is there a particular US made FCG that I must be looking for that will fit this receiver properly and without a fuss or fitting?

I'd be looking for a complete FCG, gas piston, magazine floor plates, receiver cover. What else could I change out to make this rifle 922r compliant?

thanks

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shepherddogs
November 13, 2008, 07:30 PM
Look at Tapco's website. I think they have a section that explains what constitutes allowable US parts. They also sell the parts.

Thin Black Line
November 14, 2008, 07:39 AM
As was mentioned by the previous poster, you can use Tapco's parts count
list to help with this. Keep in mind a US-made mag counts as 3 parts and
there are plenty of those out there now.

IMHO, you should replace the FCG w/ a US-made double-hook set and this
will count as 3 right there. You can also replace with a US grip if this hasn't
been done already (a shiny orange plastic grip may in fact still be Chinese).
Changing all these parts are quite easy to do. Don't bother with the springs
since these are all quality parts and don't count anyway. I don't think
anyone makes a US dust cover and I don't think this would count anyway
toward the US parts.

I am not a lawyer, but check with the parts count list and I think you will be
fine with the measures taken above. However, should you choose to replace
the gas piston, keep in mind that you will have to drill out the spot where it
is retained in the bolt carrier. You will need patience and a good eye to see
where this is anchored --you do NOT have to drill all the way thru both. Just
enough on both sides of the carrier to tap the pin back out that anchors the
original piston. You can then unscrew it and put in the new one.

MAKster
November 14, 2008, 09:21 AM
If you don't have a threaded barrel you need to replace 5 parts. FCG counts as three and the butt stock and upper/lower forearm count as two. Buy the Tapco G2 FCG. Ironwood Designs is the only U.S. manufacturer that I know of that makes a MAK stock for a slant cut receiver. U.S. made conversion parts all say Made in the U.S.A. on them. You can use U.S. magazines, but they are not as good and if you put a foreign mag in the gun it is illegal.

PershingRiflesC-7
November 14, 2008, 11:54 AM
I have a similar situation to the OP in that I inherited a MAK with a wood stock with the thumbhole grip. Can somebody direct me how evaluate it for upgrades or parts changeouts that ensure compliance? No need for a long explanation (unless you just want to) - - any weblinks appreciated. BTW, I did look at the TAPCO site but am not sure I have enough knowledge about this firearm to properly understand/interpret/apply the information on that site.

Thanks in advance for any assistance...:):)

expvideo
November 14, 2008, 12:16 PM
You need to have at least 5 of the following parts (6, if you have a muzzle attachment):

pistol grip
stock
handguards
fire control group (counts as 3 parts)
Magazine (counts as 3 parts, but US magazines suck for reliability)
Piston

If the furnature is US made (probably), you can either replace the FCG, or get a US made mag. You can replace the piston, but it takes some work and tools. The other parts require no tools to replace.

If they aren't marked "US", they probably aren't made in the US. Also, avoid ProMag magazines. They are horrible. I'm saying this from experience.

I have a similar situation to the OP in that I inherited a MAK with a wood stock with the thumbhole grip. Can somebody direct me how evaluate it for upgrades or parts changeouts that ensure compliance? No need for a long explanation (unless you just want to) - - any weblinks appreciated. BTW, I did look at the TAPCO site but am not sure I have enough knowledge about this firearm to properly understand/interpret/apply the information on that site.

Thanks in advance for any assistance...

It was my understanding that if you are keeping the thumbhole stock on it, you don't have to worry about compliance. I could be wrong.

Thin Black Line
November 14, 2008, 12:26 PM
http://www.barbneal.com/wav/trektos/mccoy/mccoy16.wav

With that said, count the parts you have, get the parts you need to replace
them to add up legally (and are the easiest for you to change), and voila!

Hoplophile
November 14, 2008, 12:30 PM
IANAL:

Isn't it the ASSEMBLING which is illegal, not the ownership?

zoom6zoom
November 14, 2008, 12:31 PM
U.S. made conversion parts all say Made in the U.S.A. on them.
No, they don't. I have an entire box of compliance parts that don't. Some Century parts are marked only with a "C" or not at all (especially gas pistons and pistol grips).

expvideo
November 14, 2008, 12:45 PM
IANAL:

Isn't it the ASSEMBLING which is illegal, not the ownership?
Every time you insert a magazine, you are assembling the gun.

snoopy2u
November 14, 2008, 12:48 PM
I was right - Thank you - you guys are good!!!

I've been to the Tapco site, and others and have seen their Tapco double tang FCG. I figured this is what was needed for compliance. However, is there any info or suggestion that would lead me to understand the various center pin hole diameters of the tapco FCG. I've seen some FCG's that state large hole and others that state nothing. Or, is the G2 double FCG what I need and will fit my milled norinco with no problem??

Thanks again.

MAKster
November 14, 2008, 02:18 PM
Anyone who is making or buying a conversion part that is not labeled Made in the U.S.A. or something similar is accomplishing nothing. The whole purpose of using these parts, which in many cases are inferior to the original, is so that you can prove the gun meets the U.S. parts requirement. If you cannot prove the part is U.S. made then it's worthless. Since the Century rifles are sold as a complete rifle in accordance with the ATF regs maybe that is proof enough that its legal and labeling individual parts is not necessary. Unlike the MAK or Saiga which is created in sporterized form to begin with.

arcsound
August 6, 2010, 10:16 PM
So, how does one "prove" that the furniture is USA made? There are no markings on my Ironwood Design grips... Should I take a marker and write "Made by an honest to goodness American" on each piece??? This 922r BS is absurd. It accomplishes NOTHING. Are we really paying federal employees to enforce this nonsense?! Do they really care about how many parts are made in the USA? Vote Republican for Chrisakes, and get rid of the peope that think up this crap, i.e. Democrats. Have we lost our collective mind in this once great land?

zignal_zero
August 7, 2010, 07:06 AM
So, how does one "prove" that the furniture is USA made? There are no markings on my Ironwood Design grips... Should I take a marker and write "Made by an honest to goodness American" on each piece??? This 922r BS is absurd. It accomplishes NOTHING. Are we really paying federal employees to enforce this nonsense?! Do they really care about how many parts are made in the USA? Vote Republican for Chrisakes, and get rid of the peope that think up this crap, i.e. Democrats. Have we lost our collective mind in this once great land?

actually, NO, i don't think we are. someone please lemme know if you have ever heard of ONE criminal charge brought against an individual for owning (not selling) a rifle that was not 922 compliant. i never have. just like the 94-04 awb - i never heard of any charges, let alone convictions under that one. i really don't believe there are any federal agents actively pursuing violators of laws they don't even fully understand much less care about. i could be wrong. if someone has information pointing to the contrary, please provide it.

Walkalong
August 7, 2010, 08:44 AM
When I did my Mak-90 (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=125469&d=1281058375) I replaced the FCG (http://www.copesdistributing.net/product_info.php?cPath=32_34_82&products_id=267) (3 parts), installed a "SAW (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=254212)" grip that has made in the USA on it (1 part), and so I could use foreign mags if I wanted no and not rely on having USA mags to count as "compliant parts" I replaced the gas rod (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=650018) (1 part)(don't forget the pin (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=136576)) as well. That got me to 5 USA made parts, which is all I need since the barrel is not threaded. Now I can use any mag I want without worrying. You may find better prices somewhere besides Midway, but maybe not.

dogrunner
August 7, 2010, 10:12 AM
I stand to be corrected on this but I am almost sure that MERE possession of a non compliant 922 type of firearm is NOT illegal............It IS illegal to build or convert a rifle governed by that statute in such a manner as to MAKE it NON-COMPLIANT......

Any informed attorneys on board?

BTR
August 9, 2010, 09:29 AM
A milled ak with no muzzle device needs only 4 compliance parts. It is the stamped reciever ones that need 5.

If you want to be able to use any magazine, a tapco double hook trigger group will give you 3 parts, and in conjuction with the furniture on the gun, you will be good to go. The tapco trigger group re-uses the springs that are already installed on the gun. You may with to buy a red star arms retainer plate to ease re-installation on the trigger group.

If you don't want to fool with changing the trigger group, you can use compliance parts on the mag. You can use 2 or 3 compliance parts for your furniture (buttstock, PG, handguard), and put in a mag with 1 or 2 compliance parts (follower, or floorplate).

k-var.com sells nice mags with 2 compliance parts built in already.

nathan
August 9, 2010, 09:34 AM
Ill leave it as is. Its as good as french bread with cheddar cheese.

DoubleTapDrew
August 9, 2010, 02:24 PM
This worksheet lets you check which parts you are replacing and shows compliance:
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance

zhyla
August 9, 2010, 05:21 PM
I see a lot of these 922 threads. I don't really see the point. The burden of proof is (as always) on the prosecution. They will have a difficult time proving the origin of all parts in an AK. This is one reason you've never heard of a 922 prosecution. The other is, of course, that nobody cares.

BTR
August 10, 2010, 10:45 AM
If the government wants to charge you for something, and they can't prove you committed any real crime, they could try and charge a person with this. Assembling a non-compliant gun is a felony. And inserting a magazine apparently counts as "assembling".

zhyla
August 11, 2010, 10:47 AM
And inserting a magazine apparently counts as "assembling".

I've heard that before but haven't seen anything from the ATF stating that. It's definitely not an open/shut case, even if they somehow could prove non-compliance.

Cobra76two
September 30, 2010, 01:11 PM
Yet another 922r post...sorry ya'll...please bear with me...

First post here also...hi guys!

This compliance issue has been hashed out on all the forums I've belonged to, and the general consensus has always been that you only need to add 5 US made parts to the stamped rec. imported AK rifles, in order to bring the total count down to 10, making it 922r compliant. (6 if you have the a threaded muzzle without welded on muzzle nut)

This is what I went by when I converted my own Mak 90 (a '93 Maadi Misr) as soon as the AWB sunsetted in Sept '04.
I wanted to keep the rifle in a more traditional configuration, and prefer wood furniture on my AKs, so I chose to replace the FCG, gas piston, and FPs in the mags I wanted to use with it. (I preferred to only use traditional steel AK mags only, and back then it was harder for me to find US followers so I opted to change the piston. Didn't want a plastic PG with wood furniture so I had to go against my normal wishes and use a mag part for compliance.
Lastly, I wanted to have a slant brake on it so I threaded the bare muzzle mine came with, and put on a US made brake. From my understanding, the brake pretty much cancels itself out if you add threads and use a US one.

So now for my question...sorry for such a long first post...

My rifle has 5 US parts added (not including the brake which cancels itself out).
That is right in line with all I've read about compliance with AK rifles.
BUT...if you try to use that new checklist,
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance
...which wasn't around back then...and you uncheck the 5 parts I referred to (not including the brake), it still says you need one more part to bring it down to the magic number 10.
And... if you uncheck muzzle device it suddenly brings you down to 10 (something that from my understanding was an extra thing).

So according to this new checklist thing, you really need 6 parts whether you have a threaded muzzle or not. This goes against the hundreds of posts I've read over the years, and posted myself, saying you only need 5.

So who is right?

Only way I can see that they are coming up with that is, since the Maks only came in with thumbhole stocks, and did not have PGs per say (even though there's been much discussion on whether or not a thumbhole IS a technically PG...IMO it's not...), then adding a US made PG doesn't really count towards the total number of parts you need to replace. Number of parts REPLACED is really the issue with 922r, not the number you add.
So who is right?
Do I need to add US followers to all my mags I keep with the Maadi now, just to be on the safe side?
Back when I first started doing PG conversions on my guns, all we had to go by were the "Soupbowl Letters"...and what was being said on the forums. Now a lot of folks are using these easy plug and play, conversion automatic checklists...and still there seem to be discrepancies. What gives?
It amazes me that as long as we have all been beating this dead horse (6 years now), there is still not a clear cut list that everyone can look at and easily tell whether or not they are in compliance. This issue gets confused even more with all the people now converting Saiga shotguns (something I'm REALLY into...), which as we know, require less parts replaced than the rifles.

Can some of the old timers here shed some light on this situation?

Is it 5, or is it 6?

Sorry again for the long post. I look forward to spending more time on this forum. It seems to be much better regulated than some other forums....which will make it much more informative and enjoyable.
I've seen this same list confusing those people too.

And please...I know this whole thing is ridiculous and nobody has ever been charged with non compliance probably, but for the sake of the matter at hand, we do need some definite lines drawn on just what is or isn't compliant.
Thanks for your time gentlemen.

W L Johnson
September 30, 2010, 01:18 PM
I have a similar situation to the OP in that I inherited a MAK with a wood stock with the thumbhole grip. Can somebody direct me how evaluate it for upgrades or parts changeouts that ensure compliance?

After some time I've actually come to prefer the thumb hole stock. I toyed around with the idea of changing it out but now I find the thumb hole stock more comfortable, it fits me better.

Cobra76two
September 30, 2010, 01:22 PM
You would probably really like mine then. I did some custom fitting to make it much more comfy on the trigger hand. I did end up swapping it for a standard AK stock once the ban sunsetted, but for a thumbhole it was damn nice IMO.

nalioth
September 30, 2010, 01:43 PM
This thread was started almost 2 years ago - I'd hope the OP has his answer by now.

Cobra76two
September 30, 2010, 01:54 PM
Hey brother wassup! Well yeah I'm over here playing thread necromancer alright....sorry. If you read my whole post you will see that even as old as this issue is...the question still remains without a clear definitive answer, other than the usual (better add an extra part anyway to be on the safe side...bla bla...".

So what's your opinion on it?
Is it 5 or 6?

What's the deal with the EZ Check list being wrong?

Pardon me for digging up an old thread, I only saw it because I did a google search for what I was looking for...ACCURATE info.

WardenWolf
October 1, 2010, 08:14 AM
A standard AK with a non-threaded muzzle and fully foreign furniture has 15 foreign parts. I am basing this count off the Saiga rifle, which I already know to have 14, and adding 1 for the pistol grip. So we have a base of 15 to start out with.

Your least expensive route to get yourself down to 10 parts and legal while still allowing you a maximum of customizability is:

1. Replace the trigger group (3 parts)

2. Use a US-made pistol grip (1 part)

3. Buy replacement magazine floorplates (1 part)

This allows you to use any furniture you like. You can use Romanian wood or whatever you want. I personally recommend an Arsenal fire control group, not Tapco. A lot of people like the Tapco G2, but after lots of experience with unintentional bumpfiring in my Saiga rifle, I've decided it's way too touchy and I'd rather have the more controllable Arsenal.

Cobra76two
October 1, 2010, 11:07 AM
Thank you for your reply WardenWolf. This is exactly what my question is about. According to what you are saying, all I've ever read is correct. My question is, if you go to this site I posted the link to, and was also posted, and un-check the 5 boxes next to the parts you listed, this so called automatic conversion compliance checklist still shows the rifle as having 11 parts and being illegal. Many people are using this thing and thinking they need to replace 6 parts, not 5 like we've always said.
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance

nalioth
October 1, 2010, 11:37 AM
Your least expensive route to get yourself down to 10 parts and legal while still allowing you a maximum of customizability is:

1. Replace the trigger group (3 parts)

2. Use a US-made pistol grip (1 part)

3. Buy replacement magazine floorplates (1 part)It's only inexpensive until you borrow a buddy's magazine at the range and break a federal law by inserting it (yes the revenuers consider inserting a mag to be "assembly").

Your list would better serve by substituting the mag part for a gas piston.

Cobra76two
October 1, 2010, 12:09 PM
For those who insist on using ALL imported furniture (my reason was I hate the way a plastic PG looks and feels on a gun with nice Russian, Bulgy, Polish, or Romy wood stock and HGs) then even replacing the piston isn't quite enough. It's also much easier to just glance at the bottom of a mag and read "Made in USA" on there, which is why I went that route with my Mak-90.
So my question still stands....why is that click and play check list still being used if it's giving people false information? Or is it actually right and many of us have non compliant guns?
Hello?

Walkalong
October 1, 2010, 12:17 PM
Your list would better serve by substituting the mag part for a gas piston. That is what I did. No worries then. Use any mag you want.

nalioth
October 1, 2010, 12:37 PM
My rifle has 5 US parts added (not including the brake which cancels itself out).
That is right in line with all I've read about compliance with AK rifles.
BUT...if you try to use that new checklist,
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance
...which wasn't around back then...and you uncheck the 5 parts I referred to (not including the brake), it still says you need one more part to bring it down to the magic number 10.
And... if you uncheck muzzle device it suddenly brings you down to 10 (something that from my understanding was an extra thing)

I'm not seeing it, Cobra.

I uncheck the FCG, piston and floor plate and muzzle device (which cancels itself out), and it comes up with 10 foreign parts.

Kalashnikovs w/o a threaded muzzle = 15 countable parts.
Kalashnikovs with a muzzle device = 16 countable parts.

I'm not seeing any reason for confusion :confused:

Cobra76two
October 1, 2010, 01:27 PM
Oh...I didn't uncheck that...
It didn't add up right when I looked at my particular Mak conversion. I;ll have to go back and look at it again.

On a different note, is it possible to resubscribe to a thread once you have unsubscribed? I did that by mistake.

Nevermind on the subscription question, sorry, still figuring out how this forum software works....

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