30 carbine vs .223


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JImbothefiveth
November 13, 2008, 09:54 PM
Anyone know which is more accurate, has more stopping power,(I can't seem to find rifle stopping power date) would be better for coyote sized creatures, and anything else I left out?
Thanks!

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VegasOPM
November 13, 2008, 10:04 PM
.223 is a true rifle cartridge (55gr at 3100fps), while .30 Carbine is pretty much a pistol cartridge (110gr at 1800fps). The major difference is not just in energy, but in the fact that the .223 can induce hydraulic (or hydrostatic) shock. In other words, the tissue of the target turns into a secondary mechanism of injury. Hydraulic shock really only comes into play above 2000 fps.

That being said, within 100 yds or so, a coyote hit center mass with a 110 gr softpoint out of a .30 carbine will be just as dead as if it was shot with a .223. The .223 will push that distance out further and will shoot pretty much POA=POI out to 250 yds or so. At 250 yds, the holdover on the .30 carbine will be a couple of feet at least.

dispatch55126
November 13, 2008, 10:15 PM
Short range, a .22LR will drop a coyote but for longer ranges you'll need the .223.

It sounds like you're driving to put a screw in the wall with a hammer. Point is, an M1 Carbine is a fine collector, a great plinker and suitable for short ranges but it's also a pistol in a rifle stock. If you want a functional rifle, get a .223

45B@cav
November 13, 2008, 10:19 PM
Get the .223

marsche
November 13, 2008, 11:08 PM
It would be fun to shoot at em with a 30 carbine, but, if you want to kill them get the .223.

atvalaska
November 13, 2008, 11:11 PM
.223 rounds wound and send two troops to help! all prior "army " rounds were to Kill and limt ex work! 30 carbines rock... even sound like the USA!!!

flyboy1788
November 13, 2008, 11:32 PM
atvalaska, posts like that make me laugh. If you hit a man in the Central Nervous System with a .223 bullet, it is lights out. shot placement is everything. I have read plenty of WWII books written by soldiers who talk about men who get hit multiple times with large "stopping power" rounds like the 8mm mauser, .45 acp, or .30-06 in the stomach, ass, leg, etc, and keep going because the adrenaline is pumping and they are determined, but most importantly, there CNS didnt get touched. The point is, shot placement is everything. FYI: I have heard it said from multiple places that more people die from .22lr than anything else in the US.

WardenWolf
November 13, 2008, 11:48 PM
Guys, guys, guys, a .30 Carbine is NOT a pistol round even though it was based on one. If you've seen the penetration tests done on it, it penetrates FAR better than pretty much any pistol round, and is fairly comparable to the 5.45x39 round.

Performancewise, they're pretty similar. The .223 isn't quite a "proper" rifle round either. It's an assault rifle round, which means a shorter bullet and case (note: there are some rare boattail options that actually are closer to proper rifle bullets). Both should be quite accurate out to 200 yards.

ArfinGreebly
November 13, 2008, 11:53 PM
You might want to compare the ballistics of the .357 fired from a carbine with the M1 Carbine's numbers.

Similar in many respects, but the .357 is a heavier hunk of lead.

I've been in the gonne shoppe when a fella came in with a picture of himself with a 1,000 lb bison, taken with his S&W 686 revolver (also in the pic) at 71 yards. Hard cast lead. Through and through. I would imagine he could have made that same shot with that same round from a carbine from 30 to 50 yards farther out.

A soft point .30 Carbine round is likely going to have similar effectiveness inside the hundred yard mark. The M1 Carbine has taken its share of deer. I've talked to several old timers who wistfully remember their first deer falling to that little gun.

I have both an M1 Carbine and an 1894C in .357, but I've not had a chance to do comparative impacts at the "usual" distances.

And there's a new variable in the mix. Hornady, curse them, have come out with a LeverEvolution round in .357 mag, specifically designed for use in carbines and full-sized revolvers. Improved ballistics and stuff.

Given the number of different loads in the .38 spl and .357 mag family, if I were choosing a fun gun for both varmints and the occasional buffalo, I think I'd lean toward the .357 carbine.

At any distance, and on small and medium-sized varmints, the .223 is to be preferred. Flatter shooting. Less fooling around with holdover and such. Decent ballistics for things up to the size of a small goat.

That said, I loves my little M1 Carbine. My home defense long gun of choice.

WardenWolf
November 14, 2008, 12:00 AM
And yet a smaller diameter bullet of similar weight is almost always going to have superior penetration and velocity falloff due to less resistance.

R.W.Dale
November 14, 2008, 12:16 AM
I think the 30 M1 carbine gets a bum rap because it gets lumped in with carbines. But when you look a the specs for the round and rifle, weight, velocity and size and compare it to other Submachineguns it really excels in that context. Look at it this way the 30 m1 might have been a crappy rifle but it was a damn good SMG especially the FA M2

Compared to a smeisser the M1 was lighter shorter and hit harder.

However that being said .223rem is infinitely more effective than .30 carbine on anything you choose to compare

RyanM
November 14, 2008, 12:51 AM
Look at it this way the 30 m1 might have been a crappy rifle but it was a damn good SMG especially the FA M2

Yep, the M1/M2 Carbine was essentially an early PDW. Not really intended as an assault or battle rifle.

Anyway, one other benefit to the .30 carbine is it's going to be a lot quieter through a rifle. That's about it, though.

jbech123
November 14, 2008, 12:32 PM
If you've seen the penetration tests done on it, it penetrates FAR better than pretty much any pistol round...
Doubtful. When you put a pistol round in a rifle platform, the 357 would be as good, and the 44 would be better. That is not even taking into account new pistol rounds like the 454.

Performancewise, they're pretty similar. The .223 isn't quite a "proper" rifle round either. It's an assault rifle round, which means a shorter bullet and case (note: there are some rare boattail options that actually are closer to proper rifle bullets). Both should be quite accurate out to 200 yards.
How is the performance of a ~55gr spitzer boattail bullet@3250fps similar to a roundish nose flat base 110gr @1800fps? I guess using that criteria all rounds are similar.

And as far as the original question, both rounds will certainly kill a coyote. However unless you were doing your coyote hunting in the woods, or all you had was a 30 carbine and couldn't afford anything else, an m1 carbine is a poor overall choice for a coyote rig. I'm not saying you should always follow the masses, but there is a reason that coyote hunters use 223's compared to 30 carbines by a margin of probably 100 to 1.

mljdeckard
November 14, 2008, 02:03 PM
My dad killed two deer in the same day with an M-1 Carbine my grandfather got for $25 when he joined the NRA. That rifle is now backup to my 870 as a HD weapon. It's my wife's primary. I have killed two coyotes with it. I very much want a second one to tinker with, and not risk my heirloom being seized after a defensive shooting.

As far as I'm concerned, it's the perfect HD round. A .357 lever gun might out-perform it a bit, but I'm not into lever guns. I would grab it instead of my AR, AK, or SKS.

WardenWolf
November 14, 2008, 02:13 PM
And as far as the original question, both rounds will certainly kill a coyote. However unless you were doing your coyote hunting in the woods, or all you had was a 30 carbine and couldn't afford anything else, an m1 carbine is a poor overall choice for a coyote rig. I'm not saying you should always follow the masses, but there is a reason that coyote hunters use 223's compared to 30 carbines by a margin of probably 100 to 1.

In many states you can hunt coyote with .22LR. It doesn't take much to kill one. But the real reason people use .223 is because M1 Carbines are expensive and you can get a budget rifle in .223 fairly cheaply. AR-15's are also a lot more popular with the current generation of shooters. It's not the round, it's the gun. People are more attracted to the .223 guns, and because of this the round is more popular. Both rounds will do the same basic job, with similar effectiveness. However, the .223 Spitzer bullet is more versatile when it comes to specialty ammo types, and more suited to autoloading rifles.

slzy
November 14, 2008, 02:20 PM
the .30 does surprisingly well per box o'truth. it,and the 223 are under the "rags of truth section".

Pilot
November 14, 2008, 02:45 PM
Guys, guys, guys, a .30 Carbine is NOT a pistol round even though it was based on one. If you've seen the penetration tests done on it, it penetrates FAR better than pretty much any pistol round, and is fairly comparable to the 5.45x39 round.


What??? The 5.45 round is comparable to the .223 not a 30 Carbine. 5.45 throws a 53 grain bullet around 2,900 FPS.

ny32182
November 14, 2008, 02:57 PM
Boy the confusion is rampant in this thread...

A quick peek at some ballistics tables will answer all the questions folks. .30carbine = reasonably similar to .357mag in a carbine = beefy handgun round = decent performance out to maybe 150 yards or so in a shoulder fired platform.

.223 is a rifle round (fairly similar ballistically to 5.45x39), it travels ~3000fps, Marines shoot it ~500 yards in basic training with iron sights; NRA highpower shooters shoot it 600 yards; competetive bench shooters shoot it all the way up to and including 1000 yards with heavy bullets.

One is a rifle round; one is not.

RyanM
November 14, 2008, 04:34 PM
Put another way, .30 carbine is basically identical to a 3" .410 bore slug. 1/4 oz. = 109 gr, at 1800 fps.

A little marginal on anything bigger than a coyote, though at least a .30 Carbine bullet will hold together and penetrate decently, unlike the average .410 slug.

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