Massad Ayoob


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M203Sniper
November 15, 2008, 01:52 AM
Spoke in Tombstone about the JFK shooting, debunking the conspiracy theories around the JFK shooting. I missed it because of work, nice article though.

The Sierra Vista Herald Article (http://www.svherald.com/articles/2008/11/14/news/doc491d1b67500ff099922557.txt)

By Derek Jordan
Herald/Review

Published on Friday, November 14, 2008
TOMBSTONE — Residents and visitors of a city that thrives on history had a chance for something a little different Thursday, when a national firearms and self-defense expert gave a presentation on one of the most defining moments in American history.

Massad Ayoob, 60, is a 35-year veteran law enforcement instructor and part-time officer. Ayoob was in Tombstone as part of the Annual Western History Symposium and Book Exposition, where he gave a detailed presentation debunking many conspiracy theories surrounding the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

An author of nonfiction books and countless articles for weapons magazines, Ayoob drew on his knowledge to point out flaws in popular theories, like the possibility of multiple gunmen, to conclude that Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy.

So, why have a presentation about the Kennedy assassination at an event catered towards legends of the West, such as Billy the Kid and Wyatt Earp?

“That was my first question to Mr. Hickey,” Ayoob said, referring to Talei Publishers Inc. owner Michael Hickey, one of the main organizers and sponsors of the symposium.

“The fact is, it doesn’t say Old Western history, it says western history,” Ayoob said, “and at least to us easterners, it doesn’t get much more western than Dallas, Texas.”

Ayoob currently lives in Florida and New Hampshire but spends half the year traveling throughout the country teaching his 40-hour courses on weapons training and self-defense.

“I turned out to be one of those lucky people who get to make a living out of their hobby,” he said.

His extensive knowledge about the assassination stems from the mid-1990s, when he was called as an expert witness to testify in a trial in which an author, Bonar Menninger, had written a book supporting a theory that a Secret Service agent, George Hickey, had accidentally shot and killed Kennedy while riding in the car behind him in the presidential motorcade.

“I’ve been giving expert testimony and this type of thing since 1979,” he said.

“I show the Zapruder film in some of my classes when I’m lecturing on witness dynamics, as the most classic example of, if we’re not looking for it, we won’t see it.”

Ayoob is referring to the instance in which then Texas Gov. John Connally, sitting with Kennedy in the car, involuntarily reacted to being shot by lifting his arm suddenly, a movement that Ayoob said went unnoticed for decades after the incident.

“Tens of millions of people have seen that over the years, and it takes 20 years for one guy to spot a big white Stetson hat flipping almost a foot in the air.”

His classes, with names like the “Judicious Use of Deadly Force” and “Advance Handgun Skills,” take him all over the country.

“It’s way easier to bring one instructor to 20 or 30 students than vice versa,” he said.

His classes are normally comprised of a mixture of professionals and individuals who may face or have faced violent situations.

“We get a lot of high-risk retailers, and I would say a higher-than-average percentage of people who are stalking victims, (people) who have had death threats,” he said.

Those in the medical field, engineers and attorneys consistently make up part of the top five jobs of those that attend his courses, he said.

Ayoob had previously attended the Tombstone symposium in 2006, when he gave a lecture on the ballistics of the O.K. Corral shootout.

He said he’s planning on remaining in town for the remainder of the event, which lasts until Sunday, and is looking forward to the discussion of the death of Billy the Kid today.

“That is going to be fascinating,” he said.

It’s an opportunity, he said, to learn a little history.

“What you got here, with this group, (are) the premiere cowboy-western historians.”

For information about the Annual Western History Symposium and Book Exposition, go online to http://www.tombstonetimes.com/images/talei0808.jpg.

Herald/Review City Editor Ted Morris can be reached at 515-4614 or by e-mail at cityeditor@svherald.com.

:cool:

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Shung
November 15, 2008, 06:08 AM
Anyway.. Anyone who actually did shoot a Carcano in his liftime knows that the official version is just impossible.. Now, I don't pretend to know what actually happened, but the official version.. nah...

vis-à-vis
November 15, 2008, 06:11 AM
I think "Landslide Lyndon" had him popped. I don't think Oswald was the shooter. I'll let Ayoob slide on this one...

MikePGS
November 15, 2008, 06:59 AM
JFK was killed by....

Lee Harvey Oswald. Its been proven many times now. Vincent Bugliosi went so far as to write a thousand page book on the subject (he originally thought it was a conspiracy) Penn and Teller had a nice segment about how a head very well can snap back toward the source of the shot, and I think its the discovery channel that has a new special coming out that uses modern blood spatter evidence, a forensic dummy and some sharp shooters that once again proves that the shots came from the sixth story window.

SaxonPig
November 15, 2008, 08:51 AM
I don't see how less than four bullets were fired. If you count the known impact points, you have four, maybe five bullets. A bullet is known to have hit the sidewalk; one hit the windshield of the limo; one hit Kennedy in the back (and also hit Connolly if you buy that theory which I don't and neither did Connolly who always maintained he was not hit by the same bullet); and the infamous head shot. The official version is that Oswald fired three rounds that did all the damage. I don't believe that is possible.

I think the mob had him hit. He and his brother Robert, the attorney general, were going after the mob big time after the organized crime leaders made a deal with their crooked, gangster father to steal the election for John in 1960. The mob doesn't like it when you double cross them. The mob had motive and the capability to murder the president. They would also be able to keep it hushed up.

I have been to Dealy Plaza and I have studied the evidence. With all due respect to Ayoob, I don't see how one man could have done it with three shots from that crappy rifle.

qwert65
November 15, 2008, 09:05 AM
I agree almost completly with saxon pig as regards to motive also what happened to kennedy's brain?

bdickens
November 15, 2008, 09:17 AM
Maybe Mulder and Scully can find out for us.

Shung
November 15, 2008, 09:25 AM
There is no way you can fire a Carcano so accurately, so quickly with such a crappy rifle mechanism..

We've tried many times.. 3 rounds in 5 seconds is nearly impossible to do, even if you dont aim your shots.

6_gunner
November 15, 2008, 09:40 AM
I hate to see this turn into a conspiracy theory thread, but I have to put in my $.02. I've always found it very difficult to believe that one man with a crappy bolt action rifle could fire that many accurate shots in so little time. Oswald may indeed have shot Kennedy, but I've always suspected that there was at least another shooter. The Mob theory sounds credible. Oswald may have been one of several shooters, or he may have simply been a fall guy, but there seems to be more to the story than most people are willing to acknowledge. The fact that Oswald was killed off so quickly strikes me as awfully suspicious.

Threeband
November 15, 2008, 10:09 AM
Except the shooting has been re-enacted several times, to my knowledge. Identical rifle, high angle, moving target, same time limit.

No, I haven't done it, but I did live within walking distance (OK, 3-4 miles) of Dealy Plaza for a number of years...
I have been to Dealy Plaza and...


Ironically, if that pathetic loser Oswald hadn't martyred JFK, he would be a nearly forgotten one-term hack to this day. No "Camalot", no "Kennedy myth"; my generation would have been perhaps a little bit less warped.

hso
November 15, 2008, 10:15 AM
Moderator Note: Focus the discussion or this one pretty much goes away after the OP.

Kleanbore
November 15, 2008, 10:19 AM
I once heard John Connally say on a Sunday news program that he didn't believe that anyone could "fire a bolt action rifle that fast". He then withdrew the comment and refused to say any more on the subject.


I was never able to manipulate a Carcano very fast and I doubted the Commission's conclusions.

But: remember that the bolt was already closed at the time of the first shot. I've seen a re-enactment that now has me convinced that the official version is probably true.

I have enough faith in Ayoob to put it to rest.

Threeband
November 15, 2008, 10:24 AM
I've seen a re-enactment that now has me convinced

I've seen two re-enactments that demonstrated the feasibility.

-----------------------------------

fineredmist
November 15, 2008, 10:30 AM
The Kennedy motorcade approached the Book Depository and then turned driving away from the building which poses a question for me. If you were presented with two targets, one moving toward you, exposing a chest and head and one moving away exposing a shoulder and head why would you take the second? Part two of the question, the first option would also give you a greater window for follow up shots where the latter would not, so why wait till the car was going away from you? This has never made sense to me especially when Oswald was supposidly "a highly trained marksman".

Shung
November 15, 2008, 10:40 AM
You guys try the JFK Reloaded PC simulation..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK_Reloaded

it's very interesting to see how HARD it is to reproduce the exact shots combination (you have full replays, and forensic kind ballistic history available after your shots)

http://www.fileplanet.com/192027/190000/fileinfo/JFK-Reloaded-v1.1-(Free-Game)

Double Naught Spy
November 15, 2008, 10:49 AM
Connolly who always maintained he was not hit by the same bullet

As if he would know what bullets did or did not hit Kennedy given he wasn't even facing Kennedy at the time.

Just Jim
November 15, 2008, 10:55 AM
Even if someone has a good name it doesn't mean they know the truth. It is all speculation, some by those with exspearience in shootings and some who have read the reports on shootings.

When the government writes a report it is always to protect government. Making a conclusion after reading a government report is just plain stupid at best when you know the facts are not real in the report.

jj

Edited to say How long has government been telling you Fannie and Freddie were in good shape etc.

slide
November 15, 2008, 10:56 AM
I've seen two re-enactments that demonstrated the feasibility.

I've never seen any. The trick isn't working the bolt and firing but re-acquiring the moving target using a glass sight when the target is through tree branches.

I've never seen that even tried. To me, it seals the deal. The feat is impossible. I'll only revise my opinion when I see a REAL enactment - not just some trained Marine working a bolt 3 times & getting off 3 unaimed shots.

benEzra
November 15, 2008, 10:58 AM
The shooting was not that fast. Remember, the clock STARTS when the first shot is fired, so you are firing two more shots in 6 to 9 seconds (depending on the interpretation of the Zapruder film). And the first shot was only 60 yards, the third was ~80 yards. Practically point-blank range, with a 4x scope, from a rest, and one of those was a clean miss.

Here's an older guy doing it, without a whole lot of practice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBeMaEwwvwU

And the rifle can be fired a lot faster than that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoqB1_RWW5w&feature=related

If you look around on Youtube, there are several videos of Carcano owners making hits on balloons and such at 60-80 yards within the allotted time.

Japle
November 15, 2008, 10:59 AM
what happened to kennedy's brain?

It's shown in the film. Blasted out the holes in the skull.

When I was in the Air Force in the late '70, we set up a moving "car" that we'd rigged up with cardboard silhouettes. We shot from a safety officer tower at the base range. Not as high as a 6th story window, but it was the best we could do. One of the NCOs had the same model rifle that Oswold used and surplus ammo. We all used open sights, since the scope on the original rifle (we'd heard) wasn't sighted in.

Four of us tried it. We were all good to expert shots. We all managed it in the time allowed.

Years later it was pointed out that Oswold fired the rifle from his left shoulder, using his left hand on the trigger and working the bolt with his right hand. He never took his hand off the bolt, so he could shoot pretty fast without disturbing his position. This info came from his neighbors. Oswold had made them very nervous, sitting on his porch with the rifle resting on the railing and practicing for hours. They'd called the cops, but in Dallas there was nothing illegal about dry-firing a rifle on your own porch.

slide
November 15, 2008, 11:08 AM
If you look around on Youtube, there are several videos of Carcano owners making hits on balloons and such at 60-80 yards within the allotted time.

Not while the balloons are moving and have to be hit sighting through the branches of a tree. Have YOU ever tried acquiring a moving target through tree branches? Try and and you'll see the utter b.s. that is those youtube demos.

Shung
November 15, 2008, 11:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoqB1...eature=related

this shows a lee enfield... which bolt is known to be one of the smoothest and easiest to handle.. a Carcano is far more rugged.

qwert65
November 15, 2008, 11:20 AM
according to wiki(so whatever that is worth) Carlos Hatchcock stated that he tried the shot and couldnt do it

slide
November 15, 2008, 11:22 AM
It flat cannot be done. By anybody including Hathcock. It's as silly as saying that Oswald flew to the moon to get his ammo.

arcticap
November 15, 2008, 11:23 AM
this shows a lee enfield... which bolt is know to be one of the smoothest and easier to handle.. a Carcano is far more rugged.
The Discovery Channel documentary had a shooter recreate the shots with a carcano and it was possible to do within the timeframe. On some of the attempts, ammo and gun problems did keep it from working out-but at least one of the attempts worked.

1911 guy
November 15, 2008, 11:26 AM
I've always enjoyed reading "The Ayoob Files" in "American Handgunner". There's always stuff to think about when you've got the luxury of time and hindsight. Lots of lessons to be learned. I'm also quite sure that the presentation given by Mr. Ayoob was flawless, according to the Warren Commission report. Too bad it's wrong.

Claude Clay
November 15, 2008, 11:30 AM
JFK is still dead? :uhoh:

Treo
November 15, 2008, 11:48 AM
I have no problem believing that our government is crooked enough to have participated in the Kennedy assasination, my problem is believing that they're compatent enough to cover it up.

Maybe the Illuminati did it because Kennedy refused to go along W/ the "New World Order" that's as plausible as any other therory I've ever heard.

Either way we have two options the assasination happened exactly the way history say it did, or there was some grand conspiracy that has been able to cover their tracks for 45 years. If the latter is the case I tend to think that if they managed to cover it up this long we'll never know the truth.

slide
November 15, 2008, 12:03 PM
No grand conspiracy. Just a few guys who were in on it and the grossly incompetent government investigators who think a Marine working a bolt quickly is a demonstration of the actual event.

Don't confuse incompetence with conspiracy.

coloradokevin
November 15, 2008, 12:17 PM
It flat cannot be done. By anybody including Hathcock. It's as silly as saying that Oswald flew to the moon to get his ammo.

Personally, I hate to speak of this situation in absolute terms. I don't really know what happened, but I personally wouldn't say that it is impossible. Simply saying that something just can't be done removes the element of luck, too.

Maybe it couldn't be done 9 out of 10 times, but what if it *could* be done once?

slide
November 15, 2008, 12:20 PM
It has been tried 10 times and succeeded 0. If Hathcock couldn't do it, I say it's impossible for Oswald to have done it.

If you are uncomfortable with bold statements than how about this: It's a 100:1 shot that Oswald managed to pull it off. That means its a 99:100 shot that the official story is wrong.

Choose your odds and live with that.

Pilot
November 15, 2008, 12:26 PM
I don't think we'll ever know for sure. What I do know is that Oliver Stone's film, while entertaining, was totally false.

MikePGS
November 15, 2008, 01:07 PM
Whats the source of the alleged Hathcock comment? The man once shot a bicyle frame from 2500 yards while it was moving. I find it hard to believe that he would have any difficulty with shooting another moving target from a much closer distance. Furthermore Oswald wasn't the poor shot people seem to think he was. He scored "marksman" twice while in the Marines. And the idea of it taking two bullets to hit the governor is also false, since the angle they were sitting it all but guaranteed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62gvoKyODu4 (NSFW Warning: Language that may be offensive)

SaxonPig
November 15, 2008, 01:31 PM
DNS- Connally said he was hit as he turned in reaction to the first shot. He clearly felt he was not hit by the same bullet that went through Kennedy.

5.6 seconds for 3 shots. That's the official story. Yes, it has been duplicated under perfect conditions by expert shooters but they didn't score the same direct hits as they say Oswald did under less than perfect conditions by a shooter hardly an expert.

slide
November 15, 2008, 01:32 PM
Gee, guys, the point is that Oswald was supposed to re-acquire the moving target twice in those 6 seconds. That's the tough part - not moving the bolt.

danweasel
November 15, 2008, 01:36 PM
Wow, I thought that that guy was supposed to be a genius! Hmmmm....

Chuck Dye
November 15, 2008, 02:39 PM
I recall a CBS, perhaps 60 Minutes, segment in which a tower was built to dimensions representing the Book Repository window, and a wooden track configured to carry targets through the same relative movements and ranges as Kennedy and Connally traveled. If memory serves, CBS found that even novices managed the shots easily with same rifle and scope.

If my search yields links, I'll post them.

If your search beats me to them, post them, please.

Mrs. Armoredman
November 15, 2008, 02:58 PM
Darn I missed him again. There have been so many experts trying to prove who did what when I got kinda confussed. I watched specials on JFK's death they all think they are right.

bdickens
November 15, 2008, 04:58 PM
Nobody seems to take into consideration the possibiliy of sheer dumb luck. Marksmanship and inherent accuracy (or lack thereof) of the rifle in question aside, as long as the stars just happen to line up just right, a blind man can hit a moving target.

FoMoGo
November 15, 2008, 05:07 PM
Furthermore Oswald wasn't the poor shot people seem to think he was. He scored "marksman" twice while in the Marines.
One thing to remember, "Marksman" is the lowest qualifying rating you can get on the range in the Corps. ;)


Jim

MikePGS
November 15, 2008, 05:13 PM
According to the Warren Report, "Oswald was trained in the use of the M-1 rifle. His practice scores were not very good, but when his company fired for record on December 21, he scored 212, 2 points above the score necessary to qualify as a "sharpshooter" on a marksman/sharpshooter/expert scale." http://www.fiftiesweb.com/kennedy/lee-harvey-oswald.htm
I actually looked into it a bit further since I thought he had qualified higher but i'm not really sure about ranks in regards to that sort of thing.

qwert65
November 15, 2008, 05:39 PM
he did score that. the same report states that a year later he barley made marksman

benEzra
November 15, 2008, 06:17 PM
It is true that a Marksman badge is the lowest badge the USMC gives, but they mean it when they call it "Marksman". A USMC-designated Marksman is not a dolt who can't hit a barn from the inside; the Marines emphasize rifle marksmanship more than any other branch, and take quite a bit of pride in it; it's not a consolation prize or an attendance award. Oswald was 100% a loser, but incompetent he was not.

Anyone whom the US Marine Corps qualifies as a "Marksman" is certainly good enough to hit a 8" target 1 for 3 at 80 yards with a 4x scope from a benchrest, no? And the third hit was barely a hit (almost missed high and right). I'm sure he practiced quite a bit with that rifle, both live and dry firing; I suspect most failed reenactments of the shot involve shooters who have NOT practiced for weeks with the rifle beforehand.

And reacquiring a target moving directly away from the shooter at 11 mph in 2 or 3 seconds using a low-power scope in full daylight against an asphalt background is NOT hard. Plenty of hunters also manage to reacquire and shoot followup shots at animals in two or three seconds, using much harder kicking calibers against much more difficult backgrounds. Shoot, I am not a great rifle shot and I can recover from recoil and transition from one IPSC 5-zone to another in 1/2 to 3/4 of a second, and an IPSC 5-zone seen through a 1x optic at 15 yards is comparable in apparent size to a head at 80 yards seen through a 4x scope.

I do not personally believe that Oswald was a lone wolf, but I do believe that his being the lone shooter is not inconsistent with 3 shots in the time given.

MikePGS
November 15, 2008, 06:26 PM
To tie this into another thread, In Full Metal Jacket R Lee Emery goes on to say how great the Marines are at shooting, citing both Charles Whitman and Lee Harvey Oswald :)


As to whether or not someone tricked Oswald into doing it or not, that's an entirely different matter as far as I'm concerned. All I'm saying is that it's almost if not 100 % that Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots from the book depository window and ended up killing JFK.

Kleanbore
November 15, 2008, 06:45 PM
I'm no longer uncomfortable with the difficulty of making the shots from the window with the Carcano. That has taken some doing--primarily, my seeing of it done on television. A marine I know who is now a lawyer criticized my earlier suspicion.

Some other evidentiary stories still bother me but they are not gun related. But here's something that is:

I'm almost positive that I remember hearing before Oswald was apprehended that a man or couple had been seen walking on a bridge or railroad overpass carrying an Argentine Mauser rifle. I think that Cronkite was the reporter.

To the novice, an 1891 Mauser looks a lot like a Carcano.

Maybe there was a second gunman who never angaged.

Does anyone else remember anything like that?

Tommygunn
November 15, 2008, 07:07 PM
Gerald Posner wrote CASE CLOSED about the Kennedy assassination. In it he details how it was done and why it was Oswald. He demonstrates the Carcano could have been used, and in fact WAS used.
The Warren Commission said Oswald had 5.6 seconds, but Posner demonstrates he actually had about 11 seconds, and that there were three shots fired. The first one is free in so far as timing, ie; THAT'S where the stopwatch starts.

IF Kennedy had been shot from the Grassy Knoll (another conspiracy) then he would NOT have been hit in the front of the head, as those who propose this theory insist, he'd have been hit in the right side of his head.



At one time I did believe the conspiracy theories .... but after a lot of thinkig and asking questions I found they all relied on unfounded assertions and guesses and some poor thinking.
So ... 45 years later ... it was Lee Oswald.

benEzra
November 15, 2008, 07:17 PM
As to whether or not someone tricked Oswald into doing it or not, that's an entirely different matter as far as I'm concerned. All I'm saying is that it's almost if not 100 % that Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots from the book depository window and ended up killing JFK.
That's my thinking. I have no idea who fed Oswald his intel, or what their motives were, or if there were co-conspirators. I do know that he was assassinated soon after his apprehension in a way that suggests it was to keep him from talking.

After his apprehension, Oswald said "I am just the patsy," implying there were others involved in some way. I wonder if we'll ever figure out what he meant.

My wife's parents think the mob was involved; my parents think Johnson was involved in some way. Who knows.

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/onion-jfk.gif

Tommygunn
November 15, 2008, 07:55 PM
Ha! Love that "The Onion" article there. He he he....

As for Oswald saying "I am just the Patsy," I think it was just him saying he was the victim of a frame-up; how many people who've been arrested have claimed they were framed? A lot.
Oh well .... no one can ask him now, for sure!

MikePGS
November 15, 2008, 08:47 PM
:Chuckles: I love that Onion headline, along with the picture of Oswald getting shot that makes it look like he's in a rock band

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s54/MikePGS/oswald_big.jpg

The more I read about Oswald, the more it seems that he was pretty messed up, confused whatever. Even if he didn't shoot JFK (which he did) he still murdered a police officer who stopped him to question him. That being said, the investigation was really sloppy, so much so that there was some debate as to whether or not he would've been convicted even if he was tried.

Kind of Blued
November 15, 2008, 11:55 PM
If Mas shows up he's gonna be pissed. ;)

threefeathers
November 16, 2008, 12:29 AM
I was at the lecture, taped it completely, and Mas, Gail, my wife and I went to dinner. He was brought into the case by the family of one of the Secret Service agents who had passed away and his widow was distraught that his name would be shreaded.
Mas was able to get ahold of many files, talk to many folks including the emergency room Docs. He showed the exact layout of the vehicle, broke the Zapruder film down, (Most of you all haven't seen the end of the film because it is blanked out) Kennedy did have his head blown apart by the last round. He put together the exact bullets, (3) and showed how easy it is for a left eye dominant person who always fired as a left hander (Oswald) to work a bolt with his right hand. Oswalds mother claimed that her son was innocent because her son fired left handed and this was a right hand weapon.
The first shot was a miss and some of the brass hit a bystander who yelped. Connolly (who was a combat vet and hunter) testified he knew exactly what the sound was.
The second shot went through Kennedy's upper back and tumbled so it hit Conneley's elbow backwards causing Connelly to drop his hat. (Watch the Zapruder film closely and you can see it) This is the bullet found intact and the base of the bullet his impact damage.
The third round is the killer and blows Kennedy's head apart. Kennedy had to have known what was happening but because of Addison's disease he had been strapped int TWO corsets and was literally unable to move. Had Jackie been able to gram him and move him another 2 inches he most likely would have survived the event.
As for the Carcano, I have 3 three of them and all will put 3 shots in a 2 inch group at one hundred meters. That is not a great rifle but it will do the job.

Ayoob moves the time by the Zapruder film from 6.8 to 8.5 seconds. Using that amount of time every one who has tried can make the shoot. The furthest distance, the third shot, was 88 meters.
Try it, your wife, mother, and grandmother can make that shot.

I feel sorry for Kennedy, as a combat vet he knew exactly what was going on but because he was so strapped in he just couldn't move.
Mas doesn't go into who ordered the killing, just that Oswald did it.

threefeathers
November 16, 2008, 10:51 AM
Got home late last night. We took Mas and Gail to the Stronghold for steaks and it was fun. Emotionally I'm still a JFK person as I was in Berlin 60-62 and I was privy to the private speech he made to the 6th Infantry folks that was piped in McNair on a night it looked as if the Russians are coming. I joined his fraternity in college, and listened and believed in "Bear any Burden".
I've been one who always had a gut feeling that LBJ had something to do with it."
That said, Mas doesn't give an opinion of the who, but he has broken down the how.
His analysis does give some credance to the book written by the Cuban General who defected a few years ago who said the Castro knew that the attempt would take place but they didn't think Oswald could carry it off, but the attempt would shake Kennedy into halting the attempts on Castro.
I agree, Oswald was a looser, but a determined loser and just adept enough to carry it off.

CoLJ
November 16, 2008, 02:41 PM
Without commentary...
http://www.exponent.com/multimedia/

Scroll down to and watch "U.S vs. Lee Harvey Oswald".

Comments from those with marksman-level abilities?

benEzra
November 16, 2008, 03:44 PM
Without commentary... http://www.exponent.com/multimedia/ Scroll down to and watch "U.S vs. Lee Harvey Oswald". Comments from those with marksman-level abilities?
Excellent animation, except they didn't take into account that he was shooting left-handed, sitting, from a rest. They rendered the shooter as standing, and then dropping the rifle to work the bolt (watch it again). AFAIK, Oswald was sitting with the rifle supported by the windowsill, left hand on the trigger, right hand on or near the bolt. He would not have needed to lose the view through the scope while working the bolt, unlike the animation shown, and would not have needed to remove the firing hand from the trigger.

Ultima-Ratio
November 16, 2008, 03:56 PM
You folks realize that the gun used was identified as a Mauser 7.65?


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=666048701355447870

benEzra
November 16, 2008, 04:16 PM
You folks realize that the gun used was identified as a Mauser 7.65?

From the much-maligned Warren Commission Report:

http://books.google.com/books?id=TpzGMAmH2LEC&pg=PA235&lpg=PA235&dq=Kennedy+oswald+mauser+7.65&source=web&ots=iiqZFu1G3D&sig=wKthqFxTs-ZeS5gIltIkMZNb01U&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result

[T]he rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building was initially identified as a Mauser 7.65 rather than a Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 because a deputy constable who was one of the first to see it thought it looked like a Mauser. He neither handled the weapon nor saw it at close range.

Considering how often police officers today misidentify SKS's as "AK-47's" and whatnot, it is not surprising that a deputy who saw the gun but did not examine the markings would have assumed it was a Mauser (which were common and familiar) rather than a much more obscure Mannlicher-Carcano. Mausers and Mauser actions were common hunting guns at the time, whereas the Carcano would have been familiar primarily to gun collectors and history buffs. You see the same type of mistakes in half of news stories about shootings today.

The gun recovered from the room was/is definitely a Mannlicher-Carcano, and the bullet recovered from Mr. Kennedy's body was a 6.5mm Carcano.

threefeathers
November 16, 2008, 05:03 PM
I don't mean to malign LEO's in any way, but I have a 2 buddies who don't know a Mauser from a Schnauzer. They can write tickets though. :eek:

M203Sniper
November 16, 2008, 08:09 PM
Wow. I just posted because it was a well written article, I knew he was going to be speaking and couldn't make it because of work.

Seeing how this thread has drifted, I'll dial in my Kentucky windage and say only this;

Conspiracy theories remain as theories for one simple reason; they don't prove to be true.

Thank you 3 feathers for your summation; it makes me wish I had called in sick. :)

threefeathers
November 16, 2008, 08:49 PM
No sweat. I taped the whole talk, perhaps Mas will give us permission to show at the Ft. Huachuca Sportsman's center and we can donate a buck apiece for vets.

Archie
November 16, 2008, 09:14 PM
Mr. Ayoob can speak for himself.

From the sound of the OP, the main point of Mr. Ayoob's lecture was to remove the question of "Did Secret Service Agent So & So shoot President Kennedy?" Mr. Ayoob seems to have dispelled that possibility. It further seems Mr. Ayoob - from his viewing of the tapes and other evidence - thinks Oswald was the 'lone gunman' and did the killing.

I was twelve at the time of the incident. I remember the aftermath. I remember thinking Oswald's death was rather suspicious in terms of timing and possible convenience.

Later in life, when I started studying firearms and shooting, I was impressed with what the remarkably poor choice of rifle, scope and ammunition for a serious assassination. I've always been uneasy with the Warren report findings.

But the bottom line remains; there is no credible evidence to the contrary. Conspiracy theories, no matter how logical or well fit, don't work without evidence. And the idea the CIA (or the Freemasons or the Illuminati or the DAR) hushed it all up, so that explains why the evidence is missing simply doesn't cut it.

But President Kennedy was one unlucky Irishman that day.

threefeathers
November 16, 2008, 10:06 PM
One of the things that he showed was thet JFK was in a very advanced stage of Addison's disease and was literall being held in the car by two tightly wrapped corsets. There is no doubt in my mind that JFK, like Connelly with their combat experience knew exactly what the first shot was. If you look closely you can see that JFK couldn't move. When the second shot hit JFK in the right upper back, tumbled and hit Connelly base end in the arm you can see Connelly's hat fly out of his hand and Connelly grab it with his left hand.
The sad thing is that yu can see JFK try to move to his left but was restrained by the corsets he was wearing. The the film gets gross, the third shot literally blows the side of JFK's head off. This film is not out of focus as most of us have seen on the history channel but is very clear.
Mas points out that Jackie jumped on the trunk not to grab for an agent but to retrieve a fist sized piece of her husband's brain.
My dear lord, the terror JFK must have gone through knowing he was the target and being unable to move.

CoLJ
November 16, 2008, 10:28 PM
It's very sobering to watch the stabilized version of the Zapruder film:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jfk+stabilized&search_type=&aq=f

I'll warn you that even if you've seen the original "unstabilized" version many times before, it's unsettling to watch this one.

@benEzra
Yeah, dropping the rifle to work the bolt was the first thing that jumped out at me. Seems like a huge waste of time, and contrary to some testimony.

On the other hand, it does seem to me after watching the animation (even with the flaws) that it is *possible*

piratelooking@40
November 16, 2008, 10:40 PM
Wow. Really? No politics, no SHTF, but three pages on this crap?

So, hey, what caliber for the Loch Ness Monster?

threefeathers
November 17, 2008, 12:18 AM
Mas also showed how Oswald worked the bolt with his right hand and the rifle never left his shoulder and the sight never left his eyes. By extending the time to 8.6 seconds, working the rifle with the right hand but having it on his left shoulder made it easy and every one who has tried it that way easilly makes the time. Remember only the 1st shot required a lead and it missed. The second and third shots required only a quarter inch of movement by the muzzle of the rifle.
He also showed that the Carcano rifles came from a number of sources but two factories, Beretta and Turin had professional rifle makers who turned out superior rifles. Oswald had a Turin rifle. In testing it had a sub 2 inch group at 100 meters several times using issue ammo. One shot was 55 or someters the other was 88 meters. Easy shots.
Still, it looks to me as if Kennedy was trying to get to cover but the corsets held him in. Again, that must have been a terribly long 8 seconds for him.

dunlop
November 17, 2008, 12:23 AM
was not a Mauser 7.65... it was a pink stocked chipmunk .22

TRGRHPY
November 17, 2008, 07:31 AM
It was good to see some common sense applied during the program last night. It clearly shows that several of the shots that conspiracy morons believe just simply were not possible because of the front windshield being in the way. Conspiracy theorists with guns scare me.

ilbob
November 17, 2008, 07:47 AM
I am not convinced the official story is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but I am also not convinced that some of the wilder conspiracy ideas are plausible either.

Most people want to believe that crimes are investigated in a consistent and professional way, and the end result of the investigation is the truth. The real way things mostly happen is the investigators pretty much decide what happened and then search for evidence to support that conclusion.

When they are unable to come up with a good storyline up front, the investigation is a mess.

But the bottom line remains; there is no credible evidence to the contrary. That is the bottom line.

alsaqr
November 17, 2008, 08:24 AM
Will swim against the tide here. IMO: Ayoob should have stuck to writing about shooting bowling pins.

Phil DeGraves
November 17, 2008, 09:12 AM
Elvis did it, with the help of extraterrestrial aliens...

Japle
November 17, 2008, 09:27 AM
The truth is, the bullets came from a Mexican/Italian wedding party 2 ½ miles away.
The father of the groom (Mexican) borrowed a war-surplus rifle from the father of the bride (Italian) and fired a few shots. Everyone was drunk. No one remembers it happening.

Don’t ask me how I know……

Shawn Dodson
November 17, 2008, 03:24 PM
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/wheres_the_brain.pdf

Consistently inconsistent. See final paragraph of Ayoob's response.

Also see (scroll down to "Where's The Brain?"): http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/03/0604-03a.htm

Tirod
November 17, 2008, 03:39 PM
IT's MO deer season. Anybody who can hit a slowly moving target at 200 feet with a low power scope from a tree stand will bag a deer. And 250,000 deer will get shot this year.

It's done all the time by shooters. Get some perspective. Trash talking the messenger is cheap.

The dynamics of the shot isn't the real point, how did Oswald get enough good training to pick the spot and gain entry in an area watched by the Secret Service? Presidential snipers where a known topic when they filmed "Suddenly" in the early '50's. I have a hard time believing Oswald just walked into a Presidental parade area with a long gun and was never spotted.

I've got more to say, but the Secret Service is watching . . .

slide
November 17, 2008, 03:46 PM
Good point. 250,000 deer will be shot in the head while riding in a car at 25 mph. In fact, nobody has yet demonstrated that they can dupe the shots Oswald was supposed to have made. Yeah, they work the bolt and fire, but they don't HIT.

Also this does NOT mean a huge consipiracy. It's not a binary choice between sole Oswald and a huge consipracy involving the CIA and Cuba. It can be simply 2 or 3 guys. It's not a choice between 1 guy and 1,000 guys.

OregonJohnny
November 17, 2008, 03:55 PM
Being in my 20's, I was nowhere near this point in history. But it does interest me. One thing that just hit me while reading this thread is that some have mentioned Kennedy was strapped into 2 corsets and was virtually unable to move. Who suggested this precaution to Kennedy? Or was it insisted upon rather than suggested? A sitting target who is unable to move...Hmmm, does that seem convenient to anyone else?

ilbob
November 17, 2008, 03:56 PM
If Mas shows up he's gonna be pissed.
I am pretty sure he will get over it.

melikesguns
November 17, 2008, 03:58 PM
nevermind, too many experts here for me to comment!!:rolleyes:

ilbob
November 17, 2008, 03:59 PM
Being in my 20's, I was nowhere near this point in history. But it does interest me. One thing that just hit me while reading this thread is that some have mentioned Kennedy was strapped into 2 corsets and was virtually unable to move. Who suggested this precaution to Kennedy? Or was it insisted upon rather than suggested? A sitting target who is unable to move...Hmmm, does that seem convenient to anyone else?
JFK was the victim of a disease called Addison's. Look it up on the web. He was in almost constant pain, and was probably drugged up most of the time, just to be able to function. Sitting in a limo like that must have been very uncomfortable for him. My guess is that whatever could be done to make him more comfortable without being real obvious was done, just as the true nature of FDR's disability was well hidden while in office.

ilbob
November 17, 2008, 04:01 PM
MASSAD AYOOB, IMHO has gotten to big for his britches.This from a guy with four posts.

BTW, it should be "too", not "to".

screechjet1
November 17, 2008, 05:03 PM
Good point. 250,000 deer will be shot in the head while riding in a car at 25 mph. In fact, nobody has yet demonstrated that they can dupe the shots Oswald was supposed to have made. Yeah, they work the bolt and fire, but they don't HIT.

Also this does NOT mean a huge consipiracy. It's not a binary choice between sole Oswald and a huge consipracy involving the CIA and Cuba. It can be simply 2 or 3 guys. It's not a choice between 1 guy and 1,000 guys.

I've been to Daley Plaza, and the opinion that I came away with was that the shoot was much EASIER than many assume...the angle from the School Book Depository to the street that JFK was one made it an almost straight-away shot...the angles were perfect. Even the slight downslope of the street is coincident with the elevation of the building.

The shot wasn't a crossing shot...it was straight-away. JFK wasn't a duck in a shooting gallery...he was easier.

Now, this of course begs the question, did Oswald come up with this perfect sniper position on his own, basically through dumb luck? I find this unlikely, as Oswald was universally known as not the sharpest tack. I'm pretty confident that Oswald was the lone shooter, but he didn't place himself into position.

Mac7mac
November 17, 2008, 05:06 PM
I was in the 9th grade in November 1963, and can remember the announcement over the school P.A. system like it was yesterday; first reports said JFK had been "shot through the temples". It was a deeply somber day when his death was confirmed later in the afternoon.

While visiting Dallas in 1995, I went to the Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza, in the former Texas School Book Depository Building, which now belongs to Dallas County.
The lower five floors are used for county government offices; the entire sixth floor is a museum which "chronicles the assassination and legacy (of JFK)". The area of the window from which the shots were fired (and yes, I am making that assumption) is glassed in, but you can look down at Dealey Plaza from the window next to it. When I did so, the thought that entered my mind was, "like ducks in a barrel..."
Given the opportunity, you might wish to visit the museum yourself. It was a deeply moving experience.
It's also worthwhile to visit the museum's website (www.jfk.org).
Among other things, the Zapruder film is shown on it.

And my honest opinion: I have trained under Mas Ayoob, and I respect his decades of experience and expertise, which go far beyond "bowling pins".

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 17, 2008, 05:08 PM
My gun-related .02, with questions:

1. Questions: The rifle was scoped, but was it scoped in such a way as to allow use of the iron sights also? Has it been proven that the scope was NOT properly sighted in?

2. Comment: People refer to the Carcano as junk or "crap". It is not. While it may not be as smooth and quick as an Enfield, the Italian gov't/military spent a lot of time and money at the time developing what they thought was the best weapon design for a soldier to fire as many rounds accuracy, as quickly as possible. It's a milsurp, and like all milsurps, it's strongly built, reliable, and has been shown, it can be fired and cycled quite quickly. Aiming is another matter of course (particularly with scope). 6 seconds is enough time. 8 seconds is more than enough time. 11 seconds is way more than enough time, it would seem to me, to get off 3 aimed shots. As far as accuracy goes, different examples of milsurps are different - some of the "good" ones shoot badly, and some of the not-as-good ones will shoot amazingly well, even with military ammo. This may have been a real shooter of a gun, or Oswald may just have been lucky. But it took him 3 shots, so he wasn't THAT good or THAT lucky.

3. Contrary to what has been espoused here, I should think that it is SLOWER (if anything) to fire from a left hand stance with right hand on the bolt, than it is shooting from a right hand position. Sure, it is true that your right hand doesn't have to move from the trigger up to the bolt to start cycling (the hand is already there on the bolt), but the awkwardness of the ergonomics involved in holding the rifle steady with left hand solidly enough to keep the rifle from simply twisting rather than having the bolt move, is going to way more than overcome the extremely slight time advantage of not having to move the hand a couple of inches from the trigger to the bolt handle. Now in truth, BOTH styles can be very, VERY fast with practice. This Oswald character was probably (evidently) quite fast, but a right handed shooter can be lightning fast as well, so the difference in reality between the two types, both well-practiced, is going to be measured in milliseconds and centiseconds, not even tenths of a second. So in the grand scheme of say, 8 seconds (800 centiseconds, 8,000 milliseconds), this is a negligible amount. I mean 3 shots means only TWO cycles of the bolt. Suppose that the difference is 4 centiseconds (4/100ths). Times two is 8 centiseconds - out of 800, that only accounts for 1% of the time - difference between two styles, mind you - not total cycling time.

4. Lastly, just because "Oswald did it", doesn't even begin to usurp the possibility of one or more conspiracies to make the act happen, and cover it up. There's some pretty interesting/credible stuff out there to support the idea that it was a South American mafioso type who employed Oswald, with said South American guy being hired by the French mafia, at the behest of some of the American mafia (the American mafia supposedly used the prominent French guy to attenuate the trail from them a bit). The gov't wasn't involved in any direct way - gov't figures/agencies aren't able to perform that kind of cover up for that long of a time period - no way. Plus you've got the convenient quick silencing of the killer by Ruby which is highly suspicious.

mgregg85
November 17, 2008, 07:25 PM
Seems like tons of internet commandos malign the carcano rifle, yet I read on surplusrifle.com that it works just fine. A recent shotgun news article on the carcano was pretty positive as well. I can't say for myself because I have never handled or fired one.

threefeathers
November 17, 2008, 09:08 PM
I have 2 of them but both of mine are 7.65 instead of 6.5.
My son is left eye dominant but right handed. After Mas left the house Jimmy took two rifles, one of the Carcanos without a scope and a Mauser 98 with a 4X scope. He shoots left handed so working the bolt with his right hand was really easy and he got very fast with it in a few minutes. (he was 82nd though, B-1-505) and was raised with guns. One of the things Mas brought out was that in testimony Marina Oswald gave was that her husband spent hours in the kitchen practicing dry fire. He had the rifle on his LEFT shoulder and practiced working the bolt for hours. As much as we don't want to admit that the Knight of Camelot was felled by a serf we really do have to come to that conclusion.
That does not take any conspiracy theory away. Mas explained the how, not the why.
He also said that Kennedy had bonked 32 women his years in the White house. Finding the why is up to someone else, but the how is well explained.

screechjet1
November 18, 2008, 10:32 AM
Seems like tons of internet commandos malign the carcano rifle, yet I read on surplusrifle.com that it works just fine. A recent shotgun news article on the carcano was pretty positive as well. I can't say for myself because I have never handled or fired one.

I've actually fired about three hundred rounds or so out of 6.5 Carcanos, and found that they are, like 6.5 Arisakas, a highly serviceable rifle, especially inside 200 meters.

I was shooting iron sighted rifles, and I am no means an expert marksman. I was able to keep 5 rounds in a 6-8 inch bullseye.

Oswald was both lucky and prepared that day.

ETA: One thing that the 6.5 Carcano had going for it was mild recoil. That was useful on 22 NOV.

The Wiry Irishman
November 18, 2008, 12:27 PM
Contrary to what has been espoused here, I should think that it is SLOWER (if anything) to fire from a left hand stance with right hand on the bolt, than it is shooting from a right hand position.

An old friend of mine (and THR member) is left-handed and always works his bolt guns like that. Even offhand he's blindingly fast. It's almost like being a lefty has given him an unfair advantage.

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