Is the high road being infiltrated?


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Roadwild17
November 15, 2008, 10:35 AM
I noticed over the last several months the number of "He who has call III stuff"& "Show me whats in your gun safe" have went up. I might have my tin foil hat on a little to tight and I haven't had my coffee yet, but does anyone else find it fishy that most of these threads are started by new members and hardly and of them have a pic to offer up of there stash?

I know THEY can track you by your IP or other ways I don't know about, but starting these threads in some of the most politically charged times is ironic. Right now were in the calm before the storm, why give them info to use later?

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1911 guy
November 15, 2008, 10:40 AM
It's a tongue in cheek comment, but contains a grain of truth.

"It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you."

Like anything else in life, prepare for the worst, hope for the best. Maybe it's just new guys who want to see guns. Maybe it's Agent Schmuckatelli. Heck, my wife doesn't know about all my guns. Why should someone I've never met?

Golden Hound
November 15, 2008, 10:41 AM
Now that you mention it, it is indeed very suspicious, and I don't think you're being unjustly paranoid at all.

It only makes sense that the antis (including the ones in the government) would be doing this. Nobody can deny that the internet has created a huge new gun culture and that online forums are now bringing together thousands of shooters from all over the country and the world who would otherwise never meet. They realize that with this political situation, there's going to be a lot of activity on these online gun forums.

It makes total sense for them to be doing what you're suggesting. And we should all be aware of it, and post accordingly.

caseypj
November 15, 2008, 10:45 AM
They won't see your IP address unless they view the server logs of who uploaded the photo at imageshack or wherever or a moderator at THR furnishes them with your IP. Needless to say, don't worry about it.

1 old 0311
November 15, 2008, 10:47 AM
Along the same line, look at how many 'new members' showed up pre election, claiming that their candidate, in spite of his voting record, was indeed a supporter of the Second Amendment. Where are they at now?:confused:

hankdatank1362
November 15, 2008, 10:51 AM
We know the .gov browses this, and many other forums of interest (that could be anything from Stormfront to NAMBLA).

However, I wouldn't be too concerned with posting pics of my guns, or espescially my NFA goodies. Anyone who reads this forum for more than a few minutes will realize we know the ins and outs of practically any firearms law or regulation, and that, as a whole, we pretty much abide by them.

On the other hand, go to Youtube and look up "homemade silencer" or "coke bottle silencer". Pages after pages of people willfully breaking NFA '34 and then posting the evidence, in video format, online. I've never heard of any of them being arrested for it, and I doubt that their soda bottles are being targeted for confiscation.

hso
November 15, 2008, 11:26 AM
It goes in cycles.

This is just the most recent, "I'll show you mine if you'll show me your's?". It is usually associated with a sudden growth in membership. Expect another within the next few weeks as panic buyers find THR as their curiosity about their new purchases has them looking for information.

JBB
November 15, 2008, 11:37 AM
It's probably not a major issue, but I oftentimes think that the folks who list an inventory of their firearms in the signature line of their posts might not be thinking about what they are doing. I don't like to advertise the fact of my gun ownership with stickers, decals, etc., either. Why let potential robbers know whats available in your home or car. I like to think this is just good common sense and not paranoia. :cool:

Starship1st
November 15, 2008, 11:38 AM
Roadwild17,

I know what you mean. Every time that type of thread comes out, my radar goes off. I am glad to see that others think as I do; so I am not just being paranoid.

My thinking is, to never show everything you got and I am sure that (for the most part) it is just converation and curiosity. I do not believe that THR has been compromised .

Thanks for speaking out. :cool:

Just Jim
November 15, 2008, 11:42 AM
Your life was compromised when you got on the internet. Posting on gun boards just puts you in a different catagory. Get used to it, it will be worse over the next four years.

jj

jnyork
November 15, 2008, 11:48 AM
I was going to post pix of my guns but then they fell into a deep lake during an unfortunate canoeing accident. Sorry. :(

jerkface11
November 15, 2008, 11:51 AM
I take it there's a run on Aluminum foil to go along with the run on guns and ammo.

Restorer
November 15, 2008, 11:57 AM
I was going to post pix of my guns but then they fell into a deep lake during an unfortunate canoeing accident.

Whoa....that must have been a huge canoe because it was carrying all of my families guns, too! They don't make 'em like they used to.

Blacksmoke
November 15, 2008, 12:08 PM
IT could happen. If I were surveilling a group, their websites would be a logical choice.

Lewis130
November 15, 2008, 12:19 PM
If I were surveilling a group, their websites would be a logical choice.
Yea, most of us have our eyes on change.gov for example.

Eyesac
November 15, 2008, 12:22 PM
I only post pics of my guns after I wrap them in foil!

MachIVshooter
November 15, 2008, 12:26 PM
While I don't partake in the "show me all your guns" threads, I wouldn't worry too much about what can or can't be done with any images posted. Any one of us could pirate images from anywhere on the web or simply copy, edit and re-upload any picture from any site and it will show that it came from that user's IPA. IOW, there's really no way to prove or disprove that a poster does or does not own the guns they post pictures of. Even the ones that show the person actually firing the gun could be photoshopped for all anyone knows, and with a really good program, it would take a true expert to figure it out (and even then, maybe not). It's so easy to manipulate this stuff, and because of that none of it can be trusted.

Neo-Luddite
November 15, 2008, 12:38 PM
Is the high road being infiltrated?

Put Leonard Cohen on 'repeat' singing Everybody Knows.

Welcome to the insanity of the hivemind in it's formative years using the tech training wheels of the internet to get rolling.

rbernie
November 15, 2008, 01:10 PM
I just find it offensive for some anonymous yuckapuck to insist that I take pictures of ANYTHING that I own, for him to drool over.

Bad form, that.

22-rimfire
November 15, 2008, 01:21 PM
I post no pictures of my guns. Never have. If you don't believe what I say, then that's your business. Guns come and go. What I have this year is different than what I had last year. Tis the nature of firearms. Some guns stay. I keep track of which gun purchased where the 4473 was completed as part of the sale. I also keep track from whom I buy from dealer or non-dealer. Cabonite knows everything. :)

SuperNaut
November 15, 2008, 01:25 PM
I'm more wary of the low post count noobs posting anti-NRA stuff. Almost as if members of some other organization/board decided to hit THR this month.

Jorg Nysgerrig
November 15, 2008, 01:37 PM
I know THEY can track you by your IP or other ways I don't know about, but starting these threads in some of the most politically charged times is ironic.
These threads have been started almost every week on almost every gun forum since the these started popping up on the internet. It's not like they just started popping up.

Besides, as the sticky at the top of the board says, WE AREN'T DOING ANYTHING WRONG BY OWNING GUNS! There is no need to hide it. There is nothing of which to be ashamed. If you don't feel comfortable sharing what you own, then don't. But there's no reason to see it as anything other than it is.


Right now were in the calm before the storm, why give them info to use later?
Yeah, if someone was going to go after guns, this seem pretty straight forward:
1. Constantly monitor gun boards, spending hundreds of hours a week looking for people saying they own guns (be careful to filter out 16 year old mall ninjas and airsofters).
2. Record all the usernames and the guns they claim to own. Hope that they aren't making it up and haven't sold any guns since you made you list.
3. Get a warrant for the hosting provider to get the mysql databases.
4. Match up the posts with the IP addresses on the dates of the suspicious posts.
5. Get another warrant (or would it be a supoena duces tecum, you lawyer types?) for the ISP to give you the real name of the ip address that matches up at the time of the post, assuming they have it in their logs still because you've been secretly compiling this list for years. Hopefully, there weren't any proxy servers, then you'd need to subpoena the proxy logs too.
6. Then actually go after all of these people.

Or you could do what is more likely:

1. Get the 4473 forms.
or
1. Get the list of customers from whatever brick and mortar/online shop.
or
1. Get the NRA's member list.
or
1. Gun warranty registration lists.
or
1. CCW lists.
or
1. Get credit card records for those making frequent purchases at known gun dealers.
or
1. Any number of much easier ways to produce a list.
2. Go after these people.

JImbothefiveth
November 15, 2008, 01:42 PM
There's the possibility some of these guys are thieves, looking for guns to steal.

wacki
November 15, 2008, 01:50 PM
I'm more concerned with the psychotic "Obama isn't anti gun" posters on this forum.

Tyris
November 15, 2008, 01:50 PM
If the administrator of this board had half a brain he would be sending the logs straight to /dev/null or whatever the windows equivalent it.

-T

Treo
November 15, 2008, 02:01 PM
I think JustJim hit it. If you participate in internet forums you've chosen to compromise your life to some degree.

I simply Mirandize myself before I post.

I have the right to remain silent
If I choose to waive that right anything I say can be used against me.

It's not rocket science

If the goverment wanted to know who has gun all they have to do is not destroy NCIS information when people get background checks.

7.62X25mm
November 15, 2008, 02:01 PM
Is the high road being infiltrated?
I noticed over the last several months the number of "He who has call III stuff"& "Show me whats in your gun safe" have went up. I might have my tin foil hat on a little to tight and I haven't had my coffee yet, but does anyone else find it fishy that most of these threads are started by new members and hardly and of them have a pic to offer up of there stash?

I know THEY can track you by your IP or other ways I don't know about, but starting these threads in some of the most politically charged times is ironic. Right now were in the calm before the storm, why give them info to use later?
__________________
The second amendment, it’s not about hunting!

Without gun control, there are tragedies. With it, there are genocides.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing ~ Edmund Burke

You should get with your doctor and review your medications.

It's "Class III" "What's in your . . . " "Their stash." Yes, as a matter of fact I am in a pissy mood.

DRYHUMOR
November 15, 2008, 02:02 PM
If the line I saw at the gun show today (est 400) is any indication, I would expect more and more to seek out these forums.

I found this site in either looking for a pic or some specific info on a particular firearm.

Perused it a bit, and decided to stay.

jackdanson
November 15, 2008, 02:10 PM
No need to talk about this, everyone move along... as a side note, lets see everyone's RPG's!

:waits for suckers:

But really, I'm sure there are some atf guys on here on a regular basis, but other than the occasional fool (plant?) who asks about illegal full auto, I've never seen anything close to illegal on this board.

MikePGS
November 15, 2008, 02:16 PM
If we're "being infiltrated" by anyone, its by nutty conspiracy theorists.

wyocarp
November 15, 2008, 02:23 PM
If a thief were to be looking at the pictures and planning on stealing them, that's one thing, but the government? I'm not afraid of the government coming for the guns in the pictures that I post.

shooter429
November 15, 2008, 02:24 PM
For those of us who have been writing, advocating for the RKBA issues for many years, including in newspapers and other print sources, it is way too late to say "If I don't speak, they won't know who I am." Basically, ya gotta decide if preaching to the choir is worth the risk. I am already made, so there is no point in me stopping now. Since I am already on their list, I might as well keep on writing to give those who can't or choose not to, a voice.

Great point though and thanks for bringing it up.

Shooter429

bcp
November 15, 2008, 02:28 PM
I'm having trouble with my safe combination.

Could you guys post close-up movies showing how you work yours?

Thanks,

Bruce

:rolleyes:

Roadwild17
November 15, 2008, 02:28 PM
Thanks for the criticism and/or support! I went to wally world and got a 3 month supply of meds for only $10!!! To bad they cant do something like that with ammo.

I know there are about a few dozen better ways to get gun info. All it would take is for some goon to walk into whatever state/local office does your state's CCW and walk out with the entire list.

You can look into this a bunch of different ways, Im sure most of those threads are from new members who are excited about guns and want to see what else is out there. If your comftorable with putting what you own out here for the world to see, go for it. I personally enjoy seeing the user who has a nice modest collection, it kind of gives me something to shoot for. (you guys with whole gun room though, Im just down right jealous of you.)

But what happens when someone is taking about how bad we gun owners are for having an "arsenal" and they put up the pic you up on the Internet of your gun safe overflowing with EBR and other scary guns. And year, they can go get a crap load from an evidence locker somewhere and stage it.

I never said "WE SHOULD BAN THOSE THREADS" I just simply throwing it out there that people may be lurking around with less curious intentions.

Prince Yamato
November 15, 2008, 02:29 PM
There's always an influx of new people after major events. The antis are usually very obvious. Both noobs and antis may often start of with the same rhetoric, but usually the noobs start assimilating our culture very quickly. They're usually the first ones to go "on the attack" against the antis who join. It's kind of like a McCarthy witch hunt sometimes. Everyone is a potential anti to the newer members.

But yes, there has been an influx of newer people. Most of them are the, "Oh my God, I guess they really are going after my guns!" type.

mljdeckard
November 15, 2008, 02:32 PM
I'm with Jorg and Treo. I'm not ashamed to be a gun owner. (Ask anyone who knows me.) The main reason I've never posted pics is that my wife controls the camera, and I've never gotten around to it.

If the .gov were to use anything in here to confiscate, well....I'll try to look at it from this perspective. If I were an agent of the government, ordered to go forth and confiscate, and all the information I had was what is contained in this forum, both in public view AND the information that isn't normally visible, I think I would have a very difficult job indeed.

meef
November 15, 2008, 02:36 PM
Here's my standard response to such threads:

Here's a thought for a thread.....

"Show us pictures of your bank account, social security, credit card, home address and phone numbers."Makes about as much sense to me.

:cool:

Jorg Nysgerrig
November 15, 2008, 03:38 PM
Makes about as much sense to me.

Wow, it must be a living hell to be unable to distinguish between personally identifying information and objects you just happen to own.

Mannlicher
November 15, 2008, 03:45 PM
Roadwild has a valid point. Even paranoid folks have enemies, and reasons to be so. :eek:

stew38
November 15, 2008, 03:53 PM
went to a gun show today the line was 3 blocks long had to walk 1/2 mile to get in line . hell with it i just went home

meef
November 15, 2008, 03:54 PM
Wow, it must be a living hell to be unable to distinguish between personally identifying information and objects you just happen to own.Yeah Jorg, it's a living hell.

Sucks to be me.

:cool:

22-rimfire
November 15, 2008, 04:01 PM
THR and TFL are the two biggest gun related forums on the internet. Of course they are and have been infiltrated if you want to use that word. I bet the FBI has an agent assigned to reading forums all day long.

MAKster
November 15, 2008, 04:17 PM
I know how important we consider the 2nd Amend to be, but I hate to break it to those who think this is the most important issue facing the country. Nobody at the FBI or ATF is spending time monitoring gun sites. The web sites they are monitoring are the pedophile and neo-Nazi ones.

f4t9r
November 15, 2008, 04:25 PM
This is the reason I do not own guns !!

Cel
November 15, 2008, 04:25 PM
I'm always amazed at the people who keep calling others paranoid. Are there not factions that would love to see our guns taken away? And you can best believe that this forum and like-minded forums are being watched. No, you might not have a JBT come to your house and kick in your door the day after you post your gun collection but just remember that everything you post on the net can be retrieved. Now, if you want to post your gun collection that is fine and I have always liked those threads. It's interesting to see all the different firearms that people posess. There are some very interesting collections out there indeed. There are plenty of guns I didn't even know existed until I saw some of these types of threads. However, you know .gov and the antis love INFORMATION and these forums are the best place to get it from. Why do the research yourself when you can just get it from the horse's mouth. I would just be mindful of WHAT you are saying and posting. But of course this is The High Road and everyone here knows that already right? :D

Ed4032
November 15, 2008, 04:25 PM
22-Rimfire, That would be a cool job. Consider being paid tom read this gun blog. Hell I have to do it on my own time.

JImbothefiveth
November 15, 2008, 04:25 PM
Nobody at the FBI or ATF is spending time monitoring gun sites
But that would be the best excuse to get out of doing real work, ever! Imagine being able to read THR for a living. :cool:

edit: I see ed beat me to it, while I was typing.

Matt-J2
November 15, 2008, 04:31 PM
I'm fairly certain most folks with NFA items aren't alerting .Gov to anything by posting pics here. I'm pretty sure they already know.

JWarren
November 15, 2008, 05:15 PM
Along the same line, look at how many 'new members' showed up pre election, claiming that their candidate, in spite of his voting record, was indeed a supporter of the Second Amendment. Where are they at now?


Many are still here. Now, they often post that we are all being ridiculous for worrying about a ban. Or better yet, they remind us that it is up to us NOW to fight to prevent one.


It has ALWAYS been up to us to prevent bans, but it GALLS me to repeatedly be reminded of it by people who publicly stated here a bit back that they were voting FOR the guy who will try to pass that ban.

Itís like Ted Bundy telling soriety girls that itís their fault that they get raped in their own bedroom.



-- John

Jim K
November 15, 2008, 05:35 PM
I am not especially paranoid, but it is a good idea to remember that posting on a site like this is NOT the same as chatting with your buddies over cold brews in the rec room.

It is more like going on Larry King Live with a megaphone. Anything you post can be read by a couple of hundred million people, not all of whom are nice folks or pro-gun.

I don't believe the BATFE or FBI spends time searching this or any other site for gun serial numbers to get backdoor registration; they have better things to do.

But some comments are out of bounds and mostly you know what they are.

Jim

PTK
November 15, 2008, 05:38 PM
The government is already well aware of all of my NFA items and C&R items. Add to that that 4473s are easy to track, and they know about every gun I own, already. :)

No paranoia here, just don't see the point in hiding what I have from the internet!

pbearperry
November 15, 2008, 05:41 PM
I just gave all my guns away to strangers on the street for food and meds.What transfer form?lol

rbernie
November 15, 2008, 05:53 PM
Wow, it must be a living hell to be unable to distinguish between personally identifying information and objects you just happen to own.I can clearly distingush between the two, but I consider both to be private. One clearly moreso than the other, but both private nonetheless.

jnyork
November 15, 2008, 07:47 PM
I'm more wary of the low post count noobs posting anti-NRA stuff. Almost as if members of some other organization/board decided to hit THR this month.
__________________


Thought I was the only one that noticed that. People keep feeding them, though, so they stick around like stray dogs. :banghead:

22-rimfire
November 15, 2008, 08:10 PM
I don't believe the BATFE or FBI spends time searching this or any other site for gun serial numbers to get backdoor registration; they have better things to do.


Me neither, a yes I think they have better things to do.

Lookn4Brass
November 15, 2008, 09:45 PM
I'll have to agree with pbearperry and alot of others. My radar is a bit active lately too. I find that some threads that get started seem to be strange, and if someone isn't interested in compiling personal info or statistics/habit patterns out of the info, they must be really damn bored with life to need the info otherwise.:what:

I don't give a rat's behind whether or not someone considers me paranoid. I had rather be a least a little bit conservatively paranoid than leave my doors and windows unlocked at night and my social security number written on my checks. Yes, I've actually had someone dumb enough to hand me a check like that. :fire:

armoredman
November 15, 2008, 10:02 PM
We know the .gov browses this, and many other forums of interest (that could be anything from Stormfront to NAMBLA).


Since I have to work professionally with members of both those sites, I severely dislike being lumped in with them! Gah!

Gunnerpalace
November 15, 2008, 10:10 PM
Does the ATF/FBI check this site. possibly every now and then in a long time, for the most part there are probably ATF/FBI members here just wanting to know how to find a part,

Anti's is another story, I recall around Heller there were a few anti's that came on here and tried to start a storm, I would not underestimate them for a minute they caught on to Zumbo quickly, most likely they are reading this post/thread. And post count is not a factor either.

Ignition Override
November 15, 2008, 10:13 PM
As long as posters don't libel anybody or make a real threat, these websites are discrete.
Libel not only leads sometimes to very expensive legal action, but problems for website administrators.
I read about this on sites with totally different topics, run by guys in England ("the Blighty").

everallm
November 15, 2008, 10:15 PM
First off, anything you post on the net is archived, backed up, indexed, mirrored, cached or linked to somewhere. Once it's released out there it pretty much there for good.

For example, as a matter of curiosity I ran a cursory check of an old log on name and found a technology related web posting from 1997 archived on a Danish University wiki and a Singapore hardware manufacturers tech archive.

Second, THR is a moderated, open access, open post web site. It's not some clandestine, secret squirrel, decoder ring access only site, so the very word "infiltrate" is nonsensical.

So remember only to post what you won't worry about 10 years later.

It's just like that dead cool tattoo of your girlfriends name you get at 22, not so cool at 32 and married to Jane not Mary........

Think, then post.

tpaw
November 15, 2008, 10:22 PM
I noticed over the last several months the number of "He who has call III stuff"& "Show me whats in your gun safe" have went up. I might have my tin foil hat on a little to tight and I haven't had my coffee yet, but does anyone else find it fishy that most of these threads are started by new members and hardly and of them have a pic to offer up of there stash?

I agree with you, and posted my opinion about showing and telling everyone all about their firearms, where they keep them, how they keep them, how many they have, etc. Some even post pictures of serial numbers of their firearms! :eek: I caught some flak from guys who did it and I suppose I'll catch flak again, but I don't think it wise to show pictures of all your guns and especially not wise to show pictures of serial numbers! I thought it was wrong back then, and I still think it's wrong now. Another thing I find disturbing is when guys talk about all the ammo they have stored, some in the thousands of rounds. Say what you will, but broadcasting like that cannot bring any good.

marv
November 15, 2008, 10:45 PM
Listing guns in a signature does not prove ownership. It may be some bored pre-teen rugrat blowing smoke.

tunnug
November 15, 2008, 10:47 PM
If we're "being infiltrated" by anyone, its by nutty conspiracy theorists. (quote)
Hey now! you know, I wouldn't be paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get me.

ATF_Lurker
November 15, 2008, 10:48 PM
Is the high road being infiltrated? Be there. Done that.

Still here. Still getting paid.

mljdeckard
November 16, 2008, 12:33 AM
I'm trying to imagine a scene, where a BATFE agent goes running into his supervisor's office with printouts, pictures, and a list of IPs.

"Sir! I've got it!! They're out there, giving each other advice, arguing about politics before they are abruptly stopped by the administrators, telling each other about laws and rules when they don't always know what they're talking about, and telling each other about the guns they own. Some of them are telling stories about how they bought guns with no paper trail, and how our beurocracy doesn't always work like it's supposed to. Some of the pictures they post are of guns which are commonly stolen and are used in crimes."

"So, agent Smith, what is it you think we should do with this information?"

"I think we need to monitor the site, start sending subpoenas to internet providers, and kicking in some doors."

"Smith, does this site actually encourage crimes to be committed?"

"No sir, but they...."

"Do they tell detailed stories about crimes they have committed?"

"Not really, the mods wouldn't allow it, but they..."

"Do you know for sure that what people post on this site is true? Is there any reason to believe any of it is anything other than hearsay, conjecture, opinion, and digital garble that would be inadmissable under the 'best evidence' rule?"

"Um,....I"

"Smith, throw that crap away, get back to work, and if I ever catch you doing anything on the internet other than protesting news articles that portray BATFE in a negative light, I'll have you inspecting weighing stations at the smallest tobacco plantation in South Carolina until you retire. Now go to the local Walmart and white-out enough hyphens on 4473s to generate $50k in fines for the Christmas party."

22-rimfire
November 16, 2008, 12:37 AM
They monitor for are threats and illegal Class III weapons. They don't care how many guns you own for the average Joe. People stupid enough to make a threat on a public forum are stupid enough to actually try to carry it out.

Jdude
November 16, 2008, 02:28 AM
Post 65...
:D ha ha ha :) :) :)

Crash_Test_Dhimmi
November 16, 2008, 03:54 AM
kind of reminds me of the ads in shotgun news a while back, "legal" drop in auto sears, for a limited time only, and the address for the guy selling them was somewhere around quantico virginia area.

Looks like they have gone from shotgun news to discovering the interwebs.

wbond
November 16, 2008, 04:32 AM
Of course it's being infiltrated.

One of our local gunshops where the owners and employees are the least bright of any local gunshops was infiltrated by our local newspaper.

The newspaper had some young liberal punk who works for them go to the gunshop with an undercover reporter. The punk picked out the biggest and flashiest handgun they had. Some type of stainless polished monstrosity with a 12" barrel and either 44 mag or some larger bear caliber, and the punk is shown on the front page of the paper with a demonic, dangerous, gleeful scowl on his pubesant face while pointing the gun around the store and sighting down the barrel.

I'm sure that the gunstore would not have allowed the newspaper reporter/photographer and their punk poser fake gunbuyer in their store if they'd identified themselves, but they didn't identify themselves, and the gun store manager at that store is stupid and didn't realized that a camera shouldn't be allowed to be freely used to take pictures by unidentified people. i.e. - they infiltrated that dumbass gunstore, took posed pics under false pretenses, and then portrayed gun owners on the front page of newspaper as crazy aholes who must be stopped from owning guns.

So of course they're infiltrating this place too. The liberal media, I mean. So they can make all of us look like dangerous aholes to encourage/pressure politicians to ban our constitutional gun rights. Don't play into their hands by saying, posting, or PMing anything that makes gun owners look bad.

Probably certain l.a.w e.n.f.o.r.c.e.m.e.n.t agencies might be infiltrating this place too.

Duh. Of course it's being infiltrated by the liberal media, A*T*F, S*e*c*r*e*t Service, N*S*A, F*B*I, H*o*m*e*l*a*n*d S*e*c*u*r*i*t*y, and God knows who else. Obviously. Duh. So have some sense about what you post.

Also, anytime you post, PM, or email anything that contains the name or initials of a f*e*d*e*r*a*l agency, especially a l.a.w e.n.f.o.r.c.e.m.e.n.t one, it triggers H*o*m*e*l*a*n*d S*e*c*u*r*i*t*y's automated computer/Internet e.a.v.e.s.d.r.o.p.p.i.n.g to start monitoring your email/PMs/posts and you might even get your phone tapped, and it red flags you for ongoing automated and manual monitoring for weeks to months to a year. Likewise saying any of those key words on the phone, and possibly also keywords related to f.i.r.e.a.r.m.s or other w.e.a.p.o.n.s might also trigger phone t.a.p.s, email i.n.t.e.r.c.e.p.t.i.o.n.s, etc and get you looked at carefully for a long time, even if you did nothing wrong and had no bad intent.

Why did I include the * between letters above? Because it (probably) prevents their automated computer from flagging this post based on those sensitive keywords. Seperating letters by periods might also throw it off. Really, seperating by anything might do it. Could use ! between letters - for example. Though realistically, at this forum, they probably read/skim every post manually because they probably consider y'all a high priority to monitor. I mean both the media and various l.a.w. e.n.f.o.r.c.e.m.e.n.t agencies.

Why do I know this ****? Because I use to date a government agent who wasn't supposed to tell me this stuff, but guess what? He or she did told me. However, that was years ago. So don't any spooks reading this bother to figure out who told me. It's years ago and I don't see her anymore. Stop invading our privacy. I'll bet money that O.b.a.m.a does NOT reverse the unconstitutional B.u.s.h s.p.y.i.n.g on Americans stuff. Instead BO will use it to futher his ends.

So if you mention any words or abbreviations that are likely to trigger their automated monitoring system, you'll then be monitored for weeks to 6 months, even if you've done nothing wrong and have no bad intentions. You can thank P.r.e.s.i.d.e.n.t B.u.s.h J.r. for the invasion of privacy. Can't blame O.b.a.m.a for that. What a pair of jerks those two are. A far right jerk followed by a far left jerk. Why in hell can't this nation election a sane person who is a moderate? Either H.i.l.l.a.r.y or M.c.C.a.i.n would have been far preferable to Bush or Obama, IMO.

[indent]Now for all law e.n.f.o.r.c.e.m.e.n.t a.g.e.n.c.i.e.s or s.p.y orgs reading this: it's unconstitutional for you to do w.i.r.e. taps on USA citizens' phones and intercept their emails without probable cause. Though I realize that B.u.s.h has been allowing and encouraging you do do this, and the far left cried foul before, but now they like the idea since it will now be their administration doing it. Hypocrits (far left). However, I also realize it's not unconstitutional for you to read public posts at a forum. That said, I've broken no laws by informing others that you do/are monitoring them and invading their privacy both in legal ways and illegal (unconstitutional ways). Nor have I broken any laws by explaining how the keywords are flagged since all that has been published by the media in several national magazines back when the media and far-left still cared about privacy rights for citizens.


For the record, I hope no harm comes to Obama, because if some stupid ahole shot that POS, we'd all lose more gun rights. We might even lose all our gun rights. So please don't anyone shoot him. I beg you. Violence is wrong. Guns are only for sporting purposes and legitimate self defense. Be a good citizen.

qajaq59
November 16, 2008, 08:10 AM
My first thought when I see those posts is why anyone would even care what I own? I own the ones I like, and so do you guys. And I doubt that our likes are even similiar, so why bother to ask? However, sometimes I think it may just be that they are newbies and can't think of anything else to post.

JR47
November 16, 2008, 09:43 AM
We have a search feature here, and some of the posts go back a few years. So, the site, itself, archives the utterings of it's members.

Don't want to respond to the "show me yours requests"? Then don't. If it IS a troll, or government "infiltrator", wouldn't a thread such as this just point to those who have "something to hide" through their responses?:what:

New people tend to enter subject matter into the Search function. There are enough people here telling them to do just that when they start here. In these searches, they will inevitably run across the "here's my guns", complete with pictures.

In some cases, insurance companies would rather that you locked up certain weapons in bank vaults, or even better security settings. There are strongly worded cautions about careless actions, including disseminating pictures of one's collection, especially when it grows beyond a certain value.

I'd actually LIKE a job as described here. I visit six or eight forums a day, some more technical than others. It usually takes about two hours of the day. I'd be happy to get paid for that.:rolleyes:

LKB3rd
November 16, 2008, 09:52 AM
I am cautious about those type of threads too, and I don't think you are being paranoid.
I heard a Radio show with a caller who claimed that he had applied for a job at the FBI, and had passed all of the security checks. He says he had two people show up at his house, and give him a letter which told him to call a certain phone number, because there was a problem with his application. When he called the number, they told him his application was being denied because he was an avid net stream listener of the "Alex Jones Show." If this is true, they had illegally monitored his internet history, and were able to assign it to him.
This was just an unverified story from a caller, so take it for what it is. But one thing is for sure, legal or not, the technology exists for people in government to monitor your phone calls, internet browsing, and know exactly what you do online and on the phone. Do you trust them to follow the law? I sure don't. The news is full of stories of law breaking by people in government, especially the latest administration. I am aware that they aren't the only ones, but they sure seem to be more brazen about it.

74shovel
November 16, 2008, 09:53 AM
Yes Iím new and Iím a little cautious. I just donít trust our government and havenít for a long time and the liberal media is just as bad.

I also donít care for being looked down on because Iím new here. Iíve probably been shooting longer than most of you are old. One of the first organizations I joined was the NRA. I joined this group in hopes of finding a group of mature folks who had a similar outlook of owning and shooting guns. Not bashing folks who are new to the group. I will admit that the recent turn of events has helped me get my head out of the sand.

LKB3rd
November 16, 2008, 10:03 AM
I also don’t care for being looked down on because I’m new here.
I am not sure how long you have used forums, but if you have used them a lot, you'd know that there are various types of posters, who are disruptive, annoying, and generally rude. There are various types of "first post faux pas" such as trying to sell something on your first post, repeated new threads, etc.etc... Anyway, the point I am making is, it's better to try and start off slow, answer some questions if you can (actually contribute to the forum). You don't sound like one of the type of "annoying new posters" to me so I don't think you should take any comments about new posters personally.

Rimmer
November 16, 2008, 10:09 AM
Certainly not pointing a finger at anyone.....

I'm not at all concerned with the ATF or the CIA.
The folks I'm concerned about are those that have an agenda and are politically motivated to find the kinks in gun enthusiastís armor.

IE what most divides the Gun group...... and using that against us.


http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo115/Zoftic/alcoa.jpg

bdickens
November 16, 2008, 11:39 AM
Of course sites like this are being monitored. It can't be too hard either. Ever notice how when certain people's names who are big in the firearms community get mentioned, lo and behold who pops up in the thread? You think these busy people spend all their time lurking on internet forums?

I posted a book review on another site and a few days later, the author popped up and commented. Never been to the site before. (it is more local than this one.)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 16, 2008, 11:40 AM
It goes in cycles.

This is just the most recent, "I'll show you mine if you'll show me your's?". It is usually associated with a sudden growth in membership. Expect another within the next few weeks as panic buyers find THR as their curiosity about their new purchases has them looking for information.

HSO speaks very wisely - you guys are way *too* paranoid.

RKBABob
November 16, 2008, 11:58 AM
Oh, heck. Not this again. Please don't accuse every relatively new member of being a covert spy for the Brady Campaign. Is it so hard to believe that a new member is enthusiastic, and just looking to start a few entertaining, off-beat threads?

Jorg Nysgerrig
November 16, 2008, 12:03 PM
wbond wins the thread with the funniest post, although I fear it wasn't intentional.

D.o.t.s b.e.t.w.e.e.n l.e.t.t.e.r.s i.n.d.e.e.d.

edSky
November 16, 2008, 12:08 PM
While this site and probably every other under the sun are being "monitored" (passively via software) I don't think it's anything to worry about. If you are really paranoid, realize that just browsing this site is logged in multiple locations. Just do a traceroute to www.thehighroad.org and you can see all the intermediate locations (that show up) where the data can be logged. Not to mention the ones that don't show up.

As far as FBI, my wife and I have met several employees of said agency at various times in our lives and they all seemed as nice, if not nicer, than the average guy and gal. There's probably a bunch that read this site daily looking for tips and sharing info, just like there are doctors, lawyers, and Indian chiefs.

While you all debate this, can someone tell me - Does the shiny side of the tin-foil hat face out or in? I've heard conflicting arguments and I was wondering if someone can settle it once and for all.

22-rimfire
November 16, 2008, 12:10 PM
My take is this. I don't post pictures of guns. It is not because of the government that I don't post pictures of firearms, it is because of people who steal things. The bad guys, remember them?

I don't believe the government cares what firearms the average citizen owns. They (the government workers) probably own quite an assortment also if they are interested in firearms. Being a government employee does not make you bad or anti-gun. Being an Obama supporter does not either.

I don't approve of unofficial firearm registries or any form of registration. I don't believe the sale or ownership of EBRs should be restricted anymore than it already is. I still believe that the average American is basically honest. I don't believe gun control has a significant effect on reducing crime in the USA.

I feel the government pays more attention to gun forums than you might believe but it is not for the reason of trying to find out what you have. They are looking at behavior and signs that might suggest certain future behavior patterns. People generally give signs or broadcast in advance of planned behavior whether it be sucide or mass murder attempts. Firearms are certainly a tool to implement a plan which reflects their warped view of the world or society. Hence the danger. Gun control will not eleminate the illegal use of firearms. All you have to do is look at Australia and Great Britian. The one that worked was the Nazi approach. But that required the expenditure of great force against its citizens. The Nazi's had to demonize certain groups to gain complacity to their actions. The world knows what was done and it will happen again. It won't happen in the USA no matter who is president or in Congress. We will survive Obama. We survived George Bush and Bill Clinton. The USA is a great country and the world would sorely miss us.

marktx
November 16, 2008, 12:11 PM
Where can I apply for for these jobs spying on the intarwebs? I'm willing to go in deep.... Spend most of my spare time reading all posts thoughtfully replying why a Charles Daley Defense is just as good if not better than a Colt. If they pay enough I might even be willing to buy half a dozen Mosin Nagants and make several posts about cosmoline removal, the accuracy potential of the 91/30, and help solve the sticky bolt crisis.

Kestral
November 16, 2008, 12:14 PM
During ww2 the easiest firearm to produce was the 9mm Sten Gun It could have a smooth bore barrel,the firing pin was part of the breech block, not a seperate item,the hardest part would be the mag, so that the feed angles were correct.The French underground manufactured them in basements by the thousands.In a country like the USA with so many garden shed tool shops with all the gear,how could you ever be controlled by your ,as they think of themselves!!superiors !! On the other hand if you havn`t already taken note of the control you are already under,watch any CIA or similar film on the TV and see just how much power they already have over you.Its the way of the world I`m afraid.Kestral

qajaq59
November 16, 2008, 12:16 PM
While you all debate this, can someone tell me - Does the shiny side of the tin-foil hat face out or in? I've heard conflicting arguments and I was wondering if someone can settle it once and for all.According to a guy that I once worked with, it is Shiny side out. Oh, and the pyramid goes just above it. :neener:

Owen
November 16, 2008, 12:42 PM
:uhoh:I'm a .gov contractor. I'm encouraged by my .gov POC to read internet gun stuff in my downtime.

Crash_Test_Dhimmi
November 16, 2008, 12:48 PM
If only we spied on our own enemies with the same fortitude that we use to spy on our own citizens. This whole war thing might be a little shorter. :banghead:

I hope no one uses their emails associated with this site to do any of their "business" with.

Its safe to say that the alphabet agencies have gotten their new marching orders from their new democratic overlords :barf:. The Obama transition teams have been getting a lot of press lately. Im sure they are busy behind the scenes too.

RPCVYemen
November 16, 2008, 05:29 PM
Why did I include the * between letters above? Because it (probably) prevents their automated computer from flagging this post based on those sensitive keywords. Seperating letters by periods might also throw it off...

Dang, now I have modify the perl script again. I'd just finished modifying scan_thr.pl so that it could handle spaces and dashes between words ("l-a-w-e-n-f-o-r-c-e-m-e-n-t", and "l a w e n f o r c e m e n t").

It's Sunday and I'll be up all night working on this one. Some days those gunnies are just to clever for me.

Mike

CoLJ
November 16, 2008, 05:35 PM
Hey boys and girls, let's all put on our tin foil hats and play "Wild Ass Conspiracy Theory"! It's fun, and you don't need any facts, just ungrounded paranoid fantasy!!!

Walkalong
November 16, 2008, 07:15 PM
If you think the powers that be have not been following forums for years, you are sadly mistaken. Like Don Corleone told Michael, " Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer".

MIL-DOT
November 16, 2008, 07:46 PM
I agree with walkalong, forums like this are monitored. Don't think so? Try making an even veiled threat against a certain future incumbent, and see how long before someone knocks on your door and asks a few questions.
Now I don't envision a giant undergound complex filled with shadowy figures glued to thousands of computer screens, black helicopters standing by,but they do have their finger on the pulse.
Remember Robert Redfords character in the 70's classic spy thriller,"Three days of the Condor"? He was a low level CIA employee whose units job was to simply read, and read everything. Newspapers, magazines, novels,etc.etc.etc.E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G.
And yeah, I know it was "just a movie", but I'll assume the point is taken.

cliffy
November 16, 2008, 08:04 PM
Careful what is divulged within this Forum. Still I think this is an informative forum filled with caring American target shooters and hunters, or I'd have left it many months ago. Who knows if EVERY shooting forum isn't monitored by BIG BROTHER. cliffy

goon
November 16, 2008, 08:15 PM
Probably most of them are just new guys trying to get a handle on guns in general. Having bought their first guns they are probably excited and feel the need to share (don't you get excited when you buy a new gun?).
They're probably asking questions because they haven't figured out how to wring enough productivity out of the search function yet.
FWIW, if you've ever posted on this or any other forum you're already somewhat exposed.
Same with if you've ever bought a gun on a credit card, ordered ammo online, bought a gun at a gun store, have a CCW permit, or have a habit of writing your representatives. Don't kid yourselves - if the gov't ever really does go bad TPTB won't have any trouble figuring out who's likely to put up resistance.

"But all my guns were lost in a tragic boating accident last year!" you holler.
Sure they were buddy. And I'm dating three super-models - but only because it would be too stressful to date four supermodels at the same time.

And FWIW, I think I've screwed up exactly twice with gun laws. In both cases, I called the ATF to see what the deal was. In both cases, I was put in contact with friendly, helpful people who gave me advice to the effect of "Yep, that was probably a bad idea. If I were you I wouldn't do that again."
No helocopters, no men in body armor with MP-5's and no one beating me with a rubber hose. It's my sincere opinion that the average government LEO is probably a fairly decent guy who does the job he does to try and keep people like us safe.

A little paranoia can be healthy but some of you guys could stand to chill just a little...

Macmac
November 16, 2008, 08:56 PM
CoLJ , I feel with your post count being under 20 posts that I must offer to help, and correct you. I hope you don't mind my assistance too much.

Recently, we have been infiltrated by various left wing radicals, Grass Roots Liberals, and related Legal Agentcies, we at the THR, have decided to speak in code.

For example you said this "Wild Ass Conspiracy Theory"! Which I have taken out of context, to help you.

To use that here correctly, it should read "*W*i*l*d**A*s*s* *C*o*n*s*p*i*r*a*c*y* *T*h*e*o*r*y*"*!

This way with our special code, no one that shouldn't be here, can read and decipher the true meaning. I hope this has not offened you in anyway, as I am certain you are a real person, and so use Fedral Reserve Notes, and also VISA card. :D

hankdatank1362
November 17, 2008, 12:44 AM
Since I have to work professionally with members of both those sites, I severely dislike being lumped in with them! Gah!


I was really shocked when I read that, but then I saw who posted it, and remembered what you do for a living, and I giggled like a schoolgirl.


Anyway, if FBI, DOJ, NSA, etc... are all on the list, I guess I'm screwed, because one of my criminal justice classes has me doing extensinve research on the history and modern-day applications of the aforementioned agencies. I also frequent their respective websites. Uh-oh.

Who cares? Remember guys, we're not doing anything wrong. There is never going to be any door-to-door mass confiscation of guns without a repealing of the 2nd Amendemnt, which was most recently interpreted to grant us all an individual right to bear arms (with some BS politikally Korrect restrictions).

We are winning. Yeah, Obama's win could hurt, but instead of acting like criminals, howzabout you help make your voices heard and make the public at large realize that guns are as American as apple pie.

BULLSI
November 17, 2008, 06:55 AM
I am a noob, I dont know really where to jump here on this forum so I thought that this might be a good spot. I have a ccw. I bought six guns in six months. I plan to buy a few more. I found out I like to shoot. When I go shoot I want to shoot different guns, it is fun. I dont know much about anything else as this is something I just gotten into so I may be asking some questions from time to time. As far as the gov. is concerned they know what I have as I have to register them. I am a legal gun owner :neener:. Doesnt bother me at all.

I will say though that I am also an avid canoer to :D.

As for posting pics I bought this the other day. I dont know whether to shoot it or frame it.


http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f291/pooknator/long%20term/100_5230Medium.jpg

MAKster
November 17, 2008, 10:14 AM
I think some people think a little to highly of themselves. It reminds me of the loons who think the CIA is monitoring their every move. When in fact, not only is the government not spying on them, they don't even know or care that the person exists.

Wedge
November 17, 2008, 10:22 AM
I've been watching this board slowly die over the last 5 years. I'll probably be another senior member to go away. It's silly posts like this that are driving me over the edge...

RKBABob
November 17, 2008, 10:26 AM
I've been watching this board slowly die over the last 5 years. I'll probably be another senior member to go away. It's silly posts like this that are driving me over the edge... Glad to know I'm not the only one that's been disappointed, recently.

RPCVYemen
November 17, 2008, 11:07 AM
Remember Robert Redfords character in the 70's classic spy thriller,"Three days of the Condor"? He was a low level CIA employee whose units job was to simply read, and read everything.

Crunch the numbers yourself on this one. You can get stats on the number of books published in the world every year - let alone every newspaper and magazine.

Use some estimate about the number of pages per book, newspaper or magazine.

Assume some reading rate in minutes per page or pages per minute.

Divide.

For example:


Assume 300,000 new books are published each year.
Assume 300 pages per book.
That's 90 million new pages a year to read.
Assume a reading rate of 1 page per minute, that 90 million minutes or 1.5 million hours of work.
Assume a person works 2000 hours a year (50 weeks/year * 40 hours/week).
1.5 million hours / 2000 hours per person per year = 750 full time employees.


Now that's just new books (I think that's just new books published in the US).

Assume an equal size staff for newspapers, and a somewhat smaller staff for magazines, and the "readers" unit that Redford worked for would need 2,000 readers. Add another 1/2 or so for support staff, and you are talking a "readers" unit of 3,000 employees.

I think we can agree that human beings are not in fact reading "everything" that is published.

The internet is a much bigger problem - you can try to make some estimates and run the numbers yourself, but reading (or even scanning) all of the content on the Internet would be a very big task.

Mike

Tirod
November 17, 2008, 04:04 PM
I know there are about a few dozen better ways to get gun info. All it would take is for some goon to walk into whatever state/local office does your state's CCW and walk out with the entire list.

Well, in MO, it wouldn't be impossible - but it would be a violation of State Law. And the first couple of victims would sue louder than a champion pig caller.

I can neither confirm or deny there are over 800 CCW licensees in my county, and many are actually professionals, officers of the court, or in the media. I just take the info with a grain of salt. Monitoring this site or others is very much a low priority. The programs available to do so, manpower considerations, and automation probably key on specific phrases, words, and likely websites. Just like the known NSA scanning programs that listen to cell phones and phone calls. It takes a specific set of data to key interest.

Mention drugs, illegal guns, harm to a goverment official, or a specific idealogical slant, you probably are getting attention. But it was your association before, and you're continued affiliation that counts now.

So quit trolling by posting nude photos with guns and anti President elect posters on Myface and you won't have a problem.

melikesguns
November 17, 2008, 05:08 PM
On that note, with my 5 posts. Let me see your full auto. guns, and me(big brother) wants to see your ammo stash.!!:neener:

Johnnypi45
November 17, 2008, 05:20 PM
I bet the FBI has an agent assigned to reading forums all day long.


I WANT THAT JOB!

Petey:rolleyes:

22-rimfire
November 17, 2008, 06:39 PM
I think that job would get really boring after a while. You would be crusing between various forums and reading reading reading. Like folks have said, their may be some sort of scanning program that is used for key words. But I'm just guessing.

The reason this sort of came up was I read an article about an increase in threats directed toward the winning presidential candidate. My guess was immediately that the Secret Service and FBI is probably watching for hints or indicators of future behavior. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch for law enforcement to watch the forums. I really don't need a tin foil hat or want one.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 17, 2008, 07:19 PM
Why do I know this ****? Because I use to date a government agent who wasn't supposed to tell me this stuff, but guess what? He or she did told me.

That's just awesome! :D

lonegunman
November 18, 2008, 03:37 AM
I personally cannot imagine anyone stupid enough to either post pictures of their property or lists of their property on an internet website.

I think many of these requests are from the same type of guy who meat gazes in the locker room. The rest are probably from the BATFE.

Double Naught Spy
November 18, 2008, 07:06 AM
Is the high road being infiltrated?

Oh sure! It is part of the infiltrate and annihilate plan just like several of our constituents are doing by getting emails from Brady.

See posts #9 and #10 along with related posts here...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=404947&highlight=brady+camp

Personally, I figure it must all be a part of M.A.D., but that could be because my tinfoil hat has worn through in a few places and that I can no longer consider my brain a secure channel until the custom upgrade arrives from Paranoid R Us.

SSN Vet
November 18, 2008, 09:33 AM
post a list of all of your firearms and their serial numbers....

add to that an inventory of any high capacity mags...

and we'll get right back to you with an answer.

wbond
November 20, 2008, 06:27 AM
I can tell you for a fact that U.S. g.o.v a.g.e.n.c.i.e.s can inspect anyone's Internet history going back 5 to 10 years and know everywhere you've ever been online. I know because my X did it to me once to show she could. Yup, she worked or works for big brother. She told me every place I'd ever been online since I first got a computer 10 years earlier (even through several computers). Even places online I'd forgotten ever having been, but when she read me the list of where I'd been, I then recalled going to those places, even if years before. Her list was accurate. Lucky for me that I'm law abiding, and she only did it just to show off her skills. I was very impressed, and a bit freaked out.

The US government monitors all gun forums and all forums in general, and also emails and phone calls. Believe it. Someone said my earlier post was paranoid and funny. Well, if you consider having your constitutional rights to privacy regularly violated funny, and someone pointing how how it's done and giving some free advice how to somewhat/partially resist it, then I guess I'm hilarious.

I'm better informed than most citizens and willing to share the information, even though it might cause the government to monitor me more closely for a while (than the random monitoring they do to all of us all the time). So if that's funny, then laugh away. However, I'm so clean and boring they'll fall asleep if monitoring me since I and all my friends are law abiding, and natural born citizens who don't travel outside the country, nor do we have any international phone calls. i.e. - I'm not worth any special monitoring attention as they'll soon find out if they give me any extra monitoring. I'm a boring yawn a minute.

The media and anti-gun lobbies also surely do monitor this forum, and all gun forums.

Believe it. It's fact.

I'm not accusing any individual posters or thread starters of phishing for information, but it's possible. However, regardless of whether that has happened here, I guarantee that passive monitoring is taking place all the time by multiple gov a*g*e*n*c*i*e*s, the media, and the anti-gun lobby. One or more of those may well also be phishing and/or posting too. If passive monitoring by their computers (with special programs) flags a keyword, then that poster's posts get actively monitored for a while (by a live agent, which might soon include monitoring their phone calls and emails too). They can get your phone number from your email address. Even unlisted cell phone numbers.

If nothing bad is found, then the subject person gets moved off the active watch list back to passive monitoring by computer. The bulk of the population is only passively monitored, but a minority are also actively monitored because they've set off red flags due to use of certain keywords in type or verbally, or by certain actions (such as traveling to certain foreign nations). i.e. - everyone is passively monitored, and if certain key words, phrases, or actions/behaviors set off red flags, then the unnamed agencies' computer(s) flag that person for active monitoring for a period of time.

Most or all of this has been published by the media before.

Passive monitoring by computer automation is for sure taking place all the time. Active monitoring (with manual reading/lurking and possibly with phishing posts, etc) might also be occuring and could potentially lead to other active monitoring such as phone t.a.p.s and email interceptions/eavesdropping.

Anyone who calls me paranoid is ignorant of the facts, or works for the government and wants to discredit the very accurate information I provided.

Behave yourself in a legal manner on the Internet and in phone calls, and in life in general. If not, big brother will know. Luckily it's easy for me to behave legally since I'm law abiding by nature.

I posted the above because I don't like privacy invasions, especially when unconstitutional. The good news is that if you aren't doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about. Theoretically. However, once the right to privacy is destroyed, our other rights are at greater risk. Such as the right to keep and bear arms is at risk and invasion of privacy is one tool used to undermine all our other rights, including 2nd Amendment rights.

Yes, it's possible that newbies at the forum are just curious and ask in innocent curiousity what guns we may have, but it's also guaranteed that passive monitoring and sometimes active monitoring occur here by various infiltrators who have various agendas that are counterproductive to 2nd Amendment rights. That includes infiltrators from the anti-gun lobbies and the media, as well as the government.

Jorg Nysgerrig
November 20, 2008, 10:30 AM
Anyone who calls me paranoid is ignorant of the facts, or works for the government and wants to discredit the very accurate information I provided.

Or maybe they just recognize the fact that you're either extremely gullible or fabricating the story. Seriously, you're saying the government agencies have the ability monitor everyone's internet habits across various computers and produce a ten year history, yet this monitoring can be defeated by simply inserting spaces, periods, or asterisks between the letters.

If you actually had this supposed ex-girlfriend, which seems pretty suspect, and she told you all this, she probably still giggles when she thinks about all the crap she got you to believe and continue to regurgitate years later. Come on, Chuck, you can't seriously believe this nonsense.

ZMP_CTR
November 20, 2008, 11:02 AM
blah blah blah conspiracy theory blah blah blah

Treo
November 20, 2008, 11:14 AM
I think I've said this before but I have no problem believing our government is crooked enough, I just don't believe they're compatent enough

RPCVYemen
November 20, 2008, 11:21 AM
Why do I know this ****? Because I use to date a government agent who wasn't supposed to tell me this stuff, but guess what? He or she did told me.

I dated the same agent - Nead Tu Gno, right.

Seriously, if you dated anyone who told you that, either they weren't an agent much longer.

I was a 4th of July party at the embassy in Mogadishu, play croquet - on what was patch of dirt called a "lawn" there. A really drunk guy came up an told me how he worked for Naval Intelligence and how cool that was. I thought, "I bet you won't much longer."

I kicked around two places where there was a lot of spy v. spy games being played - Sana'a, Yemen and Mogadishu, Somalia. The absolute rule is anyone who's talking about spook work is lying. One time in that four years, do to an odd circumstance, I had a "need to know" something, and was told something. It was an odd social occasion. The individual involved got some kind of permission, and told me the exact minimum I need to know.

Mike

Treo
November 20, 2008, 11:52 AM
The absolute rule is anyone who's talking about spook work is lying.

Said the man talking about spook work :D

magillagorilla
November 20, 2008, 11:52 AM
my wife got twisted in the shorts when she saw I put my cell number on facebook. I can only imagine what she would do if I posted a pic of my collection online. Not that she wears the pants or anything. Oh crap.... Gotta go.

everallm
November 20, 2008, 11:55 AM
First off, I hate to disappoint folks but guess what.......as far as Uncles Sam etc are concerned we're neither worrisome nor particularly interesting, get used to it.

22-rimfire
November 20, 2008, 01:25 PM
Any you wonder why Obama's people want to know your online "handles" as a precondition to employment????

As part of a secret security clearance, you would be amazed what the government finds out about you.

The question becomes whether or not folks on gun forums are "of interest" for the most part. I say NO, but if you post some things that are suggestive of illegal activities or continuing illegal activities, I believe you will be flagged for observation until time that you are determined to not be a threat. The Secret Service plays hard ball and so does the FBI and Homeland Security as a group. Get used to it. Big Brother does watch, but not to the extent that some would suggest. You have to give them a reason and owning 20 guns is probably not a reason (yet).

RPCVYemen
November 20, 2008, 01:32 PM
Said the man talking about spook work.

I might be. But I was in Peace Corps, and there are a lot of firewalls against PCVs or RPCVs doing spook work.

Just to be clear, the social situation that required me to know something was not spook work. I was asked not to know someone.

I was told that I would not know someone who would be present in the social situation, even though I did if fact know that person from another social situation. That's all I ever knew about it. Before telling me even that much, the "need to know" principle was explained to me. I had never heard of "need to know" before that.

I inferred a reverse honey trap was going on, but no one told me a thing, and I didn't ask. I got to eat some good food, and at least look at one of the hottest Russian babes I have ever seen. But as a lowly Peace Corps Volunteer, I was definitely not a player in the honey trap. :) Nobody cares about PCVs - I was more or less wallpaper. And I may have been very wrong about what was going on.

And maybe I am lying about being a Peace Corps Volunteer.

Mike

Monkeybear
November 20, 2008, 02:02 PM
It is a conspiracy! The aluminum foil industry has teamed up with Cheaper Than Dirt and 5.11 Tactical to drive up sales through the propagation of paranoid speculation. Sales of tactical pants, faux army surplus and foil is up almost 4% this week just from this thread alone.

I suspect Wbond and the OP are agents of misinformation for this shadow organization.

wbond
November 20, 2008, 03:13 PM
FYI - the person who said she wouldn't be an agent much longer was correct. She was terminally ill and she and I both already knew that at the time.

FYI - I never posted my first name here and it's not part of my forum username. How is it that Jorg posted my first name in a reply to me after I posted on this topic? Jorg?

OK then. Believe what you will. It's no skin off my nose if your privacy is invaded all the time and some of you are to naive and uninformed to believe it, while some of you are likely infiltrators. It is sad because once our right to privacy is destroyed (it already is), our other rights are next on the chopping block, starting with 2nd Amendment rights.

I think many of you are far-right enough that you didn't mind B*u*s*h Jr's minions invading your privacy. However, now it will be O*b*a*m*a's minions for 4 years, and they do want to diminish your gun ownership rights and other freedoms.

My X also laughed about how the G discredits citizens who try to tell by making references to them being paranoid wackos and making jokes about tinfoil hats, etc. Well ha ha. I wonder if those who did that to me here are all naive aholes, or if at least one might be a gov agent.

The good news for me is that if none of you believe me, the gov probably won't bother me about having posted it. If they do, they'll find I'm a very law abiding and boring person.

That said, I won't mention these topics again anyplace because there is no point in risking incurring the wrath of Uncle Sam by trying to educate people who won't believe me anyway.

Jorg Nysgerrig
November 20, 2008, 04:45 PM
FYI - I never posted my first name here and it's not part of my forum username. How is it that Jorg posted my first name in a reply to me after I posted on this topic? Jorg?

Let's see, there are two equally plausible options:

Option A) I am one of your "likely infiltrators", a government agent who is tracking the whereabouts and discussions of gun owners on this and other boards, including compiling lists of what they own, where they shoot, their politcal leanings, as well as all the personal information I can find. I do this from an unmarked building in Fairfax Dr in Arlington. In my haste to discredit you per SOP, I made a mistake and used your first name discovered through our elaborate network of data mining systems, thus blowing my cover and years worth of intelligence gathering, forcing me to switch to one of my other IDs here, which I will further use to mock those who have discovered the true nature of Project Saraswati.

Option B) You posted your name not once, but four times on this forum, and took the bait (hook, line, and sinker) to fabricate a conspiracy theory out of that, effectively discrediting yourself and giving us all a good laugh at your expense.

Personally, I'm leaning towards option A. I recommend you do the same, citizen. :)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 20, 2008, 04:56 PM
Let's see, there are two equally plausible options:

Option A) I am one of your "likely infiltrators", a government agent who is tracking the whereabouts and discussions of gun owners on this and other boards, including compiling lists of what they own, where they shoot, their politcal leanings, as well as all the personal information I can find. I do this from an unmarked building in Fairfax Dr in Arlington. In my haste to discredit you per SOP, I made a mistake and used your first name discovered through our elaborate network of data mining systems, thus blowing my cover and years worth of intelligence gathering, forcing me to switch to one of my other IDs here, which I will further use to mock those who have discovered the true nature of Project Saraswati.

Option B) You posted your name not once, but four times on this forum, and took the bait (hook, line, and sinker) to fabricate a conspiracy theory out of that, effectively discrediting yourself and giving us all a good laugh at your expense.

Personally, I'm leaning towards option A. I recommend you do the same, citizen.

Now that's funny right there - I don't care who you are! :)

ArfinGreebly
November 20, 2008, 04:59 PM
You might want to review, for example, this post.

Hello all. My name is Chuck. I am the person with the hand problems who first raised these issues with one of your senior members.

There are other posts where you sign yourself as "Chuck (the recoil sensitive guy)" so don't be too impressed with Jorg's having found your name.

22-rimfire
November 20, 2008, 05:11 PM
Oh, that is funny!!!! I needed a chuckle!

boom boom
November 20, 2008, 05:49 PM
As one of those people who posts seldomly, I (to paraphrase RMN) am not an infiltrator! :) In all seriousness, some members of this or other online firearms fora happen to be government agents who like firearms. Needless to say, I am not one of them but merely a humble academic who studies legal issues.

If you are bragging in a post about your latest illegal act in front of a law enforcement agent, then expect a visit. LEO's are duty-bound not to ignore crimes. For example, I knew a woman who managed a quickie mart and who had a regular client who got coffee there every day. One day he started bragging about how he avoided paying income taxes, how taxes were illegal, etc. The manager frantically tried to shush him because she saw another regular client in her store who happened to be an IRS field agent. Unfortunately, the guy blabbing about the evils of the IRS couldn't take a hint and soon left on his merry way. The IRS agent watched him pull away and calmly wrote down the blabberer's license plate number.

As far as myself, I believe in the 5th Amendment--what you don't say nor post can't be used as probable cause.

KBintheSLC
November 20, 2008, 05:54 PM
They won't see your IP address unless they view the server logs of who uploaded the photo at imageshack or wherever or a moderator at THR furnishes them with your IP

This can and does happen. All it takes is a subpoena. Hopefully, the administrators on THR have enough balls to set the servers on fire if they make such a request.

Walkalong
November 20, 2008, 09:01 PM
F-em. They know who I am already. Get out and vote. :mad:

Don't run scared.

Sinixstar
November 20, 2008, 10:45 PM
I can tell you for a fact that U.S. g.o.v a.g.e.n.c.i.e.s can inspect anyone's Internet history going back 5 to 10 years and know everywhere you've ever been online. I know because my X did it to me once to show she could. Yup, she worked or works for big brother. She told me every place I'd ever been online since I first got a computer 10 years earlier (even through several computers). Even places online I'd forgotten ever having been, but when she read me the list of where I'd been, I then recalled going to those places, even if years before. Her list was accurate. Lucky for me that I'm law abiding, and she only did it just to show off her skills. I was very impressed, and a bit freaked out.

The US government monitors all gun forums and all forums in general, and also emails and phone calls. Believe it. Someone said my earlier post was paranoid and funny. Well, if you consider having your constitutional rights to privacy regularly violated funny, and someone pointing how how it's done and giving some free advice how to somewhat/partially resist it, then I guess I'm hilarious.


I'm calling BS on every one of these points.
I work in the technology industry - and what you're talking about is virtually impossible.
Not to be a prick here - but clearly you have very little understanding of the technology or how it works, nor the vast amount of data that would be collected, and therefor must be stored and sorted to make sense out of it. The data centers necessary to pull something like that off would make Google, Yahoo and Microsoft's entire operations combined look like a high school computer lab. The cost would FAR exceed anything reasonable that the government could possibly hide, which would mean there would have to be congressional approval for it, which would mean it would be a matter of public record. The sheer enormity of it is prohibitive enough and the technical hurdles that would have to be overcome are utterly mind-boggling if you know how this stuff works.

Again - not to be rude - but put your tin foil hat away.

Fact of the matter is - if the government wanted the information, all they would have to do is subpoena the ISP's servers logs. A site like THR for example - has the server hosted with an ISP. The FBI could get a court order for the monthly logs from the ISP - run a filter through 'em to look for any "bad" words, and THR's owners would be none the wiser. There's no need to "infiltrate" or send goons out to probe and ask questions.

This is seriously one of the most ridiculous things i've ever heard.

daorhgih
November 21, 2008, 12:28 AM
Search for any topic on this site and you will find your result in ".....0.2583 seconds", or so the searcher says to you. Or similar. "They" can search for you in the same fashion, once you are in "their" log. Everyone who's ever logged onto this site is suspect, in "their" eyes. No paranoia, I was in the National Security Agency for 8 years, reporting daily (sometimes hourly) to the Director NSA. "They" can search for ANY word or combination of letters, or even thoughts, if enough proper words appear in context. Most recently there were several "skinheads" caught in a plot to assassinate Obama. These were discovered through detection of plain-text messages referring to encoded words for Obama, his race, and his status. Believe me, "their" system is working very well. "Their" labs cover acres in several states. I agree that "they" don't need the "plants" referred to in the 1st post. But "I work in the technology industry" doesn't seem a valid credential to discount what many on this site already know and see done every day. A word to the wise. "...one of the most ridiculous things i've ever heard...." You should get out of the house more, brother.

redbullitt
November 21, 2008, 12:33 AM
hahah
its a good thing all my firearms were umm... destroyed, lost, and/or stolen as of today.

Ignition Override
November 21, 2008, 01:17 AM
redbullitt:

Man, that is tough, and you have my sympathies. Were they insured?;)

Most agencies are not evil (other than some of the ATF and FAA), but they are not dumb.
My concerns now are mostly with how far the economy will sink.

Any highly-motivated agency might find out what institutional connections there are to our private property.
With no insurance and maybe a fire-proof gunsafe in somebody else's house, that might be a secure place as long as terms remain friendly and the proper trust or detailed will covers our things in case somebody passes away.

taprackbang
November 21, 2008, 01:23 AM
Is the high road being infiltrated?

Quite possibly...
Joaquin Jackson infiltrated the NRA, and now
he whines that you or I should not have a magazine over 5 rounds.

Cities in America are almost like giant prisons; cameras everywhere!

Monkeybear
November 21, 2008, 01:42 AM
Search for any topic on this site and you will find your result in ".....0.2583 seconds", or so the searcher says to you. Or similar. "They" can search for you in the same fashion, once you are in "their" log. Everyone who's ever logged onto this site is suspect, in "their" eyes. No paranoia, I was in the National Security Agency for 8 years, reporting daily (sometimes hourly) to the Director NSA. "They" can search for ANY word or combination of letters, or even thoughts, if enough proper words appear in context. Most recently there were several "skinheads" caught in a plot to assassinate Obama. These were discovered through detection of plain-text messages referring to encoded words for Obama, his race, and his status. Believe me, "their" system is working very well. "Their" labs cover acres in several states. I agree that "they" don't need the "plants" referred to in the 1st post. But "I work in the technology industry" doesn't seem a valid credential to discount what many on this site already know and see done every day. A word to the wise. "...one of the most ridiculous things i've ever heard...." You should get out of the house more, brother.

There is a difference between searching the internet and keeping a running record of it. Chuck basically said that every thing every person has ever done for the past 10+ years on the internet is recorded.

The sheer magnitude of such a comprehensive record is what Sinxstar was talking about when questioned it's feasibility. Searching what exist on the internet today as well as records kept by the ISPs themselves is another thing entirely. If the NSA is as impressively efficient and advanced as you, and the movies, say then I doubt that they would be so wasteful of resources as to attempt such a record in the first place. I am sure they record quite a bit, just not everything.

hadmanysons
November 21, 2008, 02:50 AM
New guy here who's started a few new threads. Not out to get anyone. We swears it. ;) Own many guns

xd45gaper
November 21, 2008, 02:54 AM
you should be vigilant about what you post on the net, it could come back and haunt you some day :)

i bumped the show whats in your safe thread due to me getting a new safe and wanted ideas for my handgun storage, cant decide between a pistol rack or the bobbin idea.

RPCVYemen
November 21, 2008, 11:55 AM
No paranoia, I was in the National Security Agency for 8 years, reporting daily (sometimes hourly) to the Director NSA.

I am a little puzzled as to exactly why everyone on this public website has a need to know that.

When the people who explained "need to know" to me, the Internet didn't exist yet, but my guess is that "to prove my point in an argument on public web site" would be a bit of a stretch.

:)

Mike

takhtakaal
November 21, 2008, 12:11 PM
you should be vigilant about what you post on the net, it could come back and haunt you some day

No, it's more likely that some of the people who have read your stuff will come back and haunt you some day, even if they have to do detective work to find you. Believe me, this I know from personal experience.

It's easier for some to go completely over the top in true bunny-boiler fashion and focus on you and your apparent issues than it is for them to find happiness in their own daily routine, especially when they project their inadequacies onto you.

Sinixstar
November 21, 2008, 02:10 PM
There is a difference between searching the internet and keeping a running record of it. Chuck basically said that every thing every person has ever done for the past 10+ years on the internet is recorded.

The sheer magnitude of such a comprehensive record is what Sinxstar was talking about when questioned it's feasibility. Searching what exist on the internet today as well as records kept by the ISPs themselves is another thing entirely. If the NSA is as impressively efficient and advanced as you, and the movies, say then I doubt that they would be so wasteful of resources as to attempt such a record in the first place. I am sure they record quite a bit, just not everything.


Yes - there is a huge difference between keeping a record of everything everyone does - EVER (which, thanks to DHCP would be extraordinarily difficult to begin with) - and being able to use google.
I have no doubt the government has various search indexers (spiders) similar to what google has. They're not terribly difficult to create, and can be tuned for very specific purposes.
What I imagine the most likely scenario is - is that they would have some of these site crawlers (similar to what google has), along with a dictionary file of suspect words or phrases.
As the spiders crawl each site - if it comes across a suspect word - it flags it, where someone can review the content and see what's going on.
Not terribly difficult - and honestly, there's nothing really wrong with that. People seem to think that if you're typing on the internet, that somehow there's an expectation of privacy. There's not. These are public forums. You should assume that anything you write on here, could at some point be printed on the front page of the newspaper.
There's so many ways to stop search engine crawling, and prevent unwanted access to forums - it's not even funny. If people were that concerned about privacy - then those steps should be taken.
A scenario like that, and a scenario where the government has a log of every single web page visit, every single email, every phone call, etc etc etc - is VASTLY different.

As for mister NSA guy - let me ask you this.
How does the government's computer trace through proxy servers? How do they match records from IP addresses back through the private ISP records to an individual location? How do they match the billing records from the ISP to find out who that IP belonged to at any given time?

"I work in technology" is in fact a good enough reason, as if you had any fraction of clue as to how internet addressing, packet switching, routing, proxy servers, etc worked - you would understand the utter ridiculousness of some of these statements.

Sinixstar
November 21, 2008, 02:14 PM
and for the record - the NSA overall - is probably one of the least technologically impressive outfits out there. I remember awhile back talking to an NSA technology guy - who explained to me he didn't have to worry about security breaches or viruses on his computers, because he formatted the hard drive once a month.
When I asked him what would happen if he got a trojan the day after he formatted, that sucked data off his PC and uploaded it to a server in China - and what the potential security implications could be of a month's worth of information being sent overseas - I got a blank stare.
So - no offense, but throwing the "I worked for the NSA" statement out there, means about as much to me as "I work in technology" means to you.

Sinixstar
November 21, 2008, 02:22 PM
I just wanted to take a second and make it clear that I'm not trying to give anybody a hard time - or start any internet wars here.

There are some legitimate concerns people should have regarding what they say and do online. Again, a lot of people seem to think that there is some sort of expectation of privacy regarding what you do or say online - there is not.

That however is a long stray away from this tin-foil idea that "they are watching!". There's healthy concern, and being proactive in protecting your reputation and public personae online, and then there's paranoia.

The only thing i'm trying to do here is help show people where that line *really* is. If you're offended, I apologize, but certain whack-job statements absolutely need to be put to rest. It does none of us any good to be paranoid.

tasco 74
November 21, 2008, 03:54 PM
I sold all my guns last year...............


Life is short...........

bdickens
November 22, 2008, 11:15 AM
Sinxstar wrote:
People seem to think that if you're typing on the internet, that somehow there's an expectation of privacy. There's not. These are public forums. You should assume that anything you write on here, could at some point be printed on the front page of the newspaper.


Ask Chuck Rosenthal (former Harris Co., TX DA)

Archie
November 22, 2008, 05:24 PM
As far as "Is the High Road being infiltrated?"

It's a PUBLIC FORUM. Pretty much anyone can register and log in. Then they can read the postings and even post some thoughts.

For instance, I'm a federal lawman and have been for about 26 years now. I'm here reading and posting because I'm a shooter, reloader and collector; not because I'm spying on anyone. Having said that, I've seen some things posted here (or on other forums) that weren't all that smart to post - like essentially confessing to either committing or conspiring to commit various criminal acts.

No one has to monitor emails at random, there's enough stuff on the open forums to get an idea where to look.

Flamer
November 22, 2008, 05:36 PM
I have been off working for a while, So it has been a while since I have been on the site.

But even in my absence when I read this thread, My feelers went up almost instantly.

Do I call it being paranoid...No way, Do I call it healthy observation and caution....Absolutely.

I was and still am considered a new member and not once have I ever asked to see a persons collection or anything like that. I believe that is something that people should offer to show if they feel inclined. And as far as new folks to guns looking to see certain firearms, Can they honestly not find a picture on the internet or if they are newer firearms can they not find pictures and particulars on the manufacturers websites.

JImbothefiveth
November 22, 2008, 06:28 PM
And new members are not always "new members". I think I became a senior member in less than 2 weeks, while there wasa guy posting in technical who joined years ago, but went of to fight the War on Terror, so is still shown as a "new member"

wep45
November 23, 2008, 12:05 AM
oooo lawdey:eek:.......big brother is coming:evil:.......hide the children:p

Fun Gun
November 23, 2008, 12:27 AM
I heard of THR at CalGuns.net.
I see a few screen names here I recognize from there. Seems to be lots of noobs there, too. Now I'm a noob here. Noobness goes around.
:)

frogomatic
November 23, 2008, 07:48 AM
I don't know if the posters of the "show me your guns" threads are trying to catalogue what we own or not, and I really don't care. As a rule, I just don't advertize what I own in the way of firearms. No sense in attracting unessecary attention.

Flamer
November 24, 2008, 10:09 PM
And new members are not always "new members". I think I became a senior member in less than 2 weeks, while there wasa guy posting in technical who joined years ago, but went of to fight the War on Terror, so is still shown as a "new member"

Well either way I never want people to think I am prying for information or am some kind of anti gun nutjob.

I am just a gun lover who enjoys talking guns with anyone who will listen,lol.

cliffy
November 24, 2008, 10:14 PM
Welcome to the Internet! cliffy

cliffy
November 24, 2008, 10:29 PM
Not a viable concept most recently. Watch what you say or write! cliffy

shooter429
November 24, 2008, 11:35 PM
and Watch what you say or write! About sum it up. Remember that private companies and government agencies can access what you post and may use it to make hiring, firing decisions as well as to prosecute suspected criminals. I think remembering that anything you say can be used against you by private and public agencies is a smart thing to remember.

Shooter429

Brian Dale
November 24, 2008, 11:40 PM
I'm out of the closet. What I'm doing is good, not bad. Full disclosure: my first encounter with a Federal Law Enforcement Officer (I didn't know whether to use asterisks, or periods, or spaces, so I just left them out, OK?) was when my Dad first picked me up in his arms on the day I was born.

As Archie wrote, it's a public forum. The Online Etymology Dictionary has this to say:forum
"place of assembly in ancient Rome," from L. forum "marketplace" apparently akin to foris, foras "out of doors, outside." Sense of "assembly, place for public discussion"...

The Forum in ancient Rome was where one went in order to speak out and be heard by more or less everybody else. One effect of speaking in a forum, old or new, is that if you say foolish things you can expect that people will notice.

A bunch of Federal, State and local officers, agents, troopers, investigators, and other folks read and post on this forum because they are part of this community.

If you enjoyed reading about "Is the high road being infiltrated?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!