WHY "Made in the USA"


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earlthegoat2
November 15, 2008, 10:53 PM
Im not a communist. I love this country as much as anyone. I am a proponent of Free Trade.

Im trying to get to the root of something that has been bugging me on here for awhile. Not everyone here is like this but I would call it the vocal minority.

Why do our guns have to made in the USA?

It helps the economy yes, but only to a point and only in the short term. If the world were ideal and every country did what they did best and traded for the rest then there would be maximum efficiency of resources and we would all be living happily with our foreign made junk. There would be no tariffs or excise taxes to artificially inflate the prices of anything.

You dont like the Croatian made pistols but if Springfield puts their name on them it is okay. If you only buy US then you dont necisarily buy the best, you buy the best this country has to offer. This country may produce the best football players and the best corn and they may even produce the best gun but I doubt they produce the best gun for all of us. You have the whole world at your fingertips but in your mind you force yourself to settle for the US.

Believe me if you buy a Glock pistol your brother who is an accountant is not going to lose his job because of it. He is going to lose his job because his company couldnt adapt with the times. Its a normal phase of a business environment for layoffs to occur.

Sure only buy US made guns. But why stop there because there are a lot of people losing their job in your state too. So only buy guns from your state. Unless you happen to live in Massachussetts you are going to be hard up for guns. Maybe your neighbor lost his job so you should only buy guns from your own town. I hope you live in Ithaca, New York. Your brother lost his job only buy guns from your own family members. Im no descendant of John Browning (whose guns are made in Japan, and were made in Belgium).

Buy what you think is best (to defend your life with) and forget the rest.

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Hoppy590
November 15, 2008, 10:56 PM
Unless you happen to live in Massachusetts

WOO HOO! i do!

CT is pretty good. Colt, Mossberg, and lets not forget CMT

anyway. i will give PREFERENCE to American MNF ( and more specifically small business) but i wont ONLY buy American.

jcwit
November 15, 2008, 11:02 PM
Why Made in the U.S.A.? Guess you haven't lost your job from outsourcing. DAH

earlthegoat2
November 15, 2008, 11:06 PM
Try reading, DAH

RKBABob
November 15, 2008, 11:12 PM
This country may produce the best football players and the best corn and they may even produce the best gun but I doubt they produce the best gun for all of us.

So... You're going to buy a linebacker, and feed him corn? I suppose that's all your own business, and I'm sure he'll be great for self defense, but how on earth are you gonna find a holster to fit him? Personally, I think you should let the NFL keep the linebacker, and just get yourself a nice American-made Smith and Wesson revolver.

catfish101
November 15, 2008, 11:15 PM
I try to by American when I can no matter what it is. It isn't always the final reason for "do I buy or not" but I do take it into consideration.

Most of my guns are American made. I do have a Tauras 45Colt revolver. I like it real well but the rest are from the good ole USA.

wheelgunslinger
November 15, 2008, 11:18 PM
It's easy to speak in abstracts about the economy when you're perched in a position where you don't think you'll get any blood on you when things go badly for the poor folk, rather like a spectator at the coliseum in Rome.

catfish101
November 15, 2008, 11:23 PM
Another thing I forgot. I definitely try to by from my local small businesses. I needed some new winter cloths this year. I picked up some Carhartt items "made in the USA" cheaper from him then the "company store" down the road.

We really need to remember those small businesses.

acdodd
November 15, 2008, 11:25 PM
I buy as many used guns as I can, therefore where they were manufactured really isn't important.
My cash is going to an American.
If I buy new I tend to by US.
I am a fan of the USA so I try to support her.
Same deal with cars.

AC

MikePGS
November 15, 2008, 11:26 PM
For me I believe its a matter of quality. I find it hard to believe that after adding tariffs and shipping a gun from thousands of miles away that it will be of an equal quality to something produced within the same country. In general a lot of guns made in the U.S. (of course there are exceptions) have superior quality.

Mossberg88
November 15, 2008, 11:29 PM
I enjoy a multitude of firearms from all around the globe! DAH!

Neo-Luddite
November 15, 2008, 11:36 PM
It isn't just weapons---and I buy imported---but what I AVOID when I can----are things made by communists whenever possible.

Sorry--meant to say G-DLESS HEATHEN COMMUNISTS!

I buy quality products produced by our allies when no domestic source of simlilar quality is available at the price point I can afford. And yes, I buy Chi-com bargain bin items at the 'dollar' store when I need to----but then I feel bad for the poor wage slave who made the thing and likely eats poorly and lives in a soup of freely dumped toxic waste.

KyJim
November 15, 2008, 11:38 PM
Believe me if you buy a Glock pistol your brother who is an accountant is not going to lose his job because of it. He is going to lose his job because his company couldnt adapt with the times.
No, buying one Glock pistol won't cause the accountant brother to lose his job. What if you buy five firearms from Austria, Brazil, and Italy. Buy a suit made in China, a car made in Mexico, and a computer made in South Korea. These non-U.S. companies don't hire U.S. accountants. They hire accountants from their own country. Then a couple of U.S. companies decide to outsource some of their bookkeeping work to India because they can pay a fraction of the cost for these services. Now your brother is out of a job.

I'm a free enterprise type of guy. But, I said from the beginning that NAFTA was a giant fraud perpetrated on the citizens of this country. That's getting off-topic, so I'll stop there.

Now, I don't necessarily buy American guns but they are my preference. If you want to buy elsewhere, that's your business. But, as Josey Wales once said, "Just don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."

Majic
November 15, 2008, 11:58 PM
Why Made in the U.S.A.? Guess you haven't lost your job from outsourcing. DAH
Lets put the shoe on the other foot. What if your job produced a product that was going overseas. Would you not want that job?

Loomis
November 16, 2008, 12:11 AM
Well, from a selfish and practical point of view, you might try to buy an american made gun that is constructed of all carbon steel and is a design that is well established. That way you know you can get parts, modifications, upgrades, accessories, and repairs easily. Also, when it comes time to sell it, you will have a larger market to sell to and your chances of finding a buyer quickly will be much better.

Zoogster
November 16, 2008, 12:22 AM
It is complex to explain in depth the economics behind why some nations live a better quality of life than others even when both have similar technology and citizens capable of the same jobs.

It gets very political and mentions things that people do not like to be reminded of.

I will however say that when you do not purchase American you bring the level of the American economy down from what many people try to accomplish. Things soldiers are out dying for to insure Americans have a higher quality of life than citizens in various other nations.
Many Americans fail to understand how thier actions contribute to the necessity of certain foriegn policies (to avoid an even faster drop in quality of life.)

I do not always purchase American when I like a foriegn product, but I try to when the same product is made in America to similar or better standards.


American labor costs more, so products cost more.
Increasing the economy of a foriegn nation while hurting your own economy to save a little money leads to a worse economy.


"Free trade" is not free. There is a high price. The price is the value of American labor is lower, and so fewer and fewer Americans are willing to do or train for those jobs. It leaves our nation quite vulnerable when much of the industrial base has been replaced with a service market. When more people make a living shuffling paperwork around in offices rather than actualy producing real goods like those they wish to purchase.
Our nation is far more dependent, and a lot of the dollars of our economy are sent abroad. A dependent nation is quicker to sell its values for short term benefits as well.

The opposite extreme is not good either. Labor valued too high also burdens the society excessively.
That is why tariffs have been used through most of American history. To increase foriegn goods to similar prices of American goods. To keep the American economy its own self reliant functioning economy. Tariffs can be abused as well by being too high, and labor unions and others will work towards that opposite extreme.
So the right balance must be met. We are not currently anywhere near that balance.


America is nowhere near self reliant anymore as a result. Our nation would grind to a halt if imports were stopped for a day.
Our nation cannot even survive from the goods it could produce itself anymore. The service industry has replaced too much the production and industrial base.

People like fewer blue color jobs. People would rather work in the white collar jobs or the service industry, and would rather purchase cheap goods made with practicly slave foriegn labor.

We may reap some of the rewards with cheap foriegn imports, but our nation is extremely vulnerable as a result.
The ability to shift our economy to accomplish something like was done in World War Two is not even there anymore. We simply are not a functioning unit anymore.

Prepster
November 16, 2008, 12:22 AM
earlthegoat2, I appreciate and support your point of view, as I'm a staunch free marketeer myself and will buy whatever is made best for a lower price. I don't mean any disrespect when I say this, but I feel that your examples do a poor job of illustrating why protectionism is bad for everyone but the select few. Choosing a product of any kind is frequently a decision made based on very strange factors that vary from person to person. If people wish to buy exclusively American made guns, that is a function of the free market. If some others choose to buy the latest wonder nine from Europe, same deal. There is no mandate nor imposed moral obligation. The simple act of perferring an American made product doesn't make one a close minded simpleton who doesn't understand basic economics.

mnrivrat
November 16, 2008, 12:23 AM
By using guns as an example. it does not make the subject here about guns, but about globel trade.

If we were all on the same playing field, that might be a welcome thing in my mind, but the facts are that we are not.

The few have benifited from our trade agreements, even some working class. The majority however have not, and I find it hard to believe that people can't see what is happening with our working class jobs headed off shore.

But hey ! It must be working great the way things are going right ?

Fleetwood_Captain
November 16, 2008, 12:27 AM
Well, why would you want to buy a gun made in a country where their citizens are not allowed to possess what they manufacture?

In comparison, there are some deaf people capable of writing good music. However, it isn't a very common trend.

earlthegoat2
November 16, 2008, 12:41 AM
I guess Miroku is the deaf child then because I dont hear Browning owners complaining about their Japanese guns.

Being from the greater Detroit area of Michigan I am well aware of the current state of american economics and the outsourcing of jobs to the lowest foreign bidder.

While I myself havent lost a job because of outsourcing I have found it difficult to get a job since my discharge from the military.

I would be lying if I said I didnt expect this kind of a response here. I could be called one who stirs the pot on occasion but maybe you need to once in a while to gain a different perspective.

I am however calling into question why when someone is looking for a good CCW gun or something they stipulate in their post that they want this and that and then they say it has to be American made. Well that just cuts out 3/4 of the potential guns you could use. Price of cheap imports aside here because most imported guns arent cheap even before tariffs. If its your life on the line you need to get the best there is for you.

Maybe it is all part of the CCW gun compromise. It is a compromise of size, weight, and power. Also it is a compromise of country of manufacture.

JWarren
November 16, 2008, 12:47 AM
Maybe it is all part of the CCW gun compromise. It is a compromise of size, weight, and power. Also it is a compromise of country of manufacture.


It is also a choice. Everyone has thier own priorities in making decisions.

I am a retired stockbroker. I understand the "Wealth Effect" of trade. I don't automatically disqualify an item due to country of origin. It just ain't that simple. I do all I can to support the US economy but I also do not limit myself completely on that level.

-- John

armoredman
November 16, 2008, 03:45 AM
I like CZ made products, everyone here knows that. But when I purchase them, I am also supporting the people who work here, at CZ-USA. Don't forget, how many companies here are owned by overseas concerns? Dan Wesson is CZ owned, Smith has been owned by a few foreign companies. Taurus has a plant in Florida that employs Americans, (I hope!), and doesn't HK also have a manufacturing site over here? I have only one American made firearm, and that was bequeathed to me. Doesn't mean I don't like American made firearms, but I got more bang for the buck getting the ones that I did purchase elsewhere.

qajaq59
November 16, 2008, 08:16 AM
WHY "Made in the USA" Mainly because I want to buy "Made in the USA". And since I live in the USA, I'm free to buy whatever I please.

alistaire
November 16, 2008, 08:20 AM
If we had bought all of our weapons from Europe in 1940, where would we have been on December 8, 1941?

Answer: up the creek without engineers who could design weapons and without factories to build them.

stevemis
November 16, 2008, 08:46 AM
I don't care where my defensive tools are manufactured. I purchase the highest quality for the lowest price. If it ends up being an American company or an American made product, great. If not, oh well.

That being said, my most expensive and "best" pistol is a Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail. It was made in New York. Dan Wesson is owned by CZ-USA, which is owned in it's entirety by CZ-UB from the Czech Republic. Do I care? No.

Likewise, our Toyota pickup truck: Made in the US by a foreign-owned company. The truck we had before that, a Dodge, was made in Mexico by a US company. Again, do I care? No.

This, my friends, is what bailouts are for. It allows US-based companies to ignore consumers and the market, make fiscally unsound investments and decisions, and remain in business... all on our collective dime.

vis--vis
November 16, 2008, 09:06 AM
WHY "Made in the USA"

People buy goods for a variety of reasons. Some base their purchasing decisions on reason and some on emotion. It is reasonable to purchase a foreign made product that either equals or rivals its American produced counter-part in terms of cost/quality. It is emotionalism that drives a fellow to buy an American flag (Made in USA) rather than the same thing produced in China for far less. So long as people don't seek to impose their preference with rigidity, as some have, I don't care what you spend your money on.

I really want to start a world junk gun collection. While that is a senseless desire, considering, I'm going to do it. I'd get more "bang for my buck" buying SA or Remington than a Rhom (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=177023), sure. But that's not really what I want...

Mainly because I want to buy "Made in the USA". And since I live in the USA, I'm free to buy whatever I please.

Hopefully you do realize that you're not really free, right? Free to buy what they tell you that you can buy, sure...

Rustynuts
November 16, 2008, 09:31 AM
OP's postulation of a perfect trading world might work, IF WE LIVED in a perfect world. Problem is, we aren't, and we are smack in the middle of the flux. People ARE losing jobs due to offshoring, etc. People in manufacturing working the line for 20-30 years are being let go with a thank you and slap on the back, no severance, no re-training. Happening here in Tampa right now at a large auto parts plant. It's being moved to Mexico or something. One economist called it a "Race to the Bottom"!

Every nation in turn is under pressure from the lowest cost developing nation. Used to be Mexico, but now they are under pressure from China, India, etc. Pretty soon those will be hit as well. We'll have modern electronics being made by indigenous tribes of the Amazon! Meanwhile, everyone of the job chain has been screwed, out of a nice job, and working minimum wage service jobs because there's nothing else.

22-rimfire
November 16, 2008, 09:45 AM
I try to buy the highest quality I can afford in most things. It is getting difficult to buy "American" since a lot of times the American product is filled or composed of stuff manufactured in China, Korea etc. Of all the foreign manufactures, I actually buy thngs made in South American countries (excluding Venszuela) as a preference if the quality is good. I want them to succeed.

Many of the wiggits produced in China are just as expensive as the American product they displaced or put out of business. Who's winning?

Harve Curry
November 16, 2008, 10:31 AM
The USA acheived greatness during a time when everything could be made on it's own soil, from raw materials to finished products. A minimum amount of taxes, fees, regulation, interfrence from buearocrats. Inventions in firearms, transportation, automobiles, communication, recording sound and movies. What America did from 1870's to 1950's could not be done again with todays government intervention and costs.
That's why it is important to support and buy Made in the USA.

earlthegoat2
November 16, 2008, 10:40 AM
Maybe though it is not enough to buy the made in the USA stuff if there are things made in China that are owned by US companies who also employ Americans. Its a two way street in this day and age. The nation has to adapt. The US can no longer compete with other countries in what are now considered unskilled manufacturing jobs. The US demands too high of a premium because of our standard of living to pay out for these so called unskilled jobs. Maybe the US is going to only employ a higher percentage of white collar jobs and outsource the manufacturing that happens underneath the white collars.

All this being said I own a mix of firearms from different countries and the majority of them are from the USofA. The modern firearm was invented here (autoloaders, revolvers, pumps, etc) and I embrace the fact that we still know how to do it right. Remington quality control has gone to the dogs though.

bdickens
November 16, 2008, 10:44 AM
:banghead:

It is just not that simple any more. With today's global economy. As has been mentioned before, our "American" cars are being built in Mexico and Canada while our "Japaneese" cars are being built here in the US. Both use parts made in China, Singapore, Indonesia and elsewhere.

Just to keep this thread politically related, even though my politics are solidly right-center Lireratarian, I just can't be a member of the Liberatarian Party because I just can't agree with their unrealistic isolationist foreign policy.

Roadwild17
November 16, 2008, 10:50 AM
I try to buy the best thing to fit the role Im wanting to fill, regardless of where its made because:

1. When I need to use it, Im not going to care where its made, IT HAS TO WORK.

2. Does anyone actually know how many manufactures there are, like the FNHs out there who actually own several other companies, is there an American made gun out there?????

3. At the current rate out outsourcing, how long until there are no gun companies in America? What then?

And yes, if there are two items that fit the need I have, even if the American one is a bit more expensive (around 10% more than the import) Ill get the American made.

woodfiend
November 16, 2008, 10:50 AM
I don't buy a gun just because it is made in the USA. European weapons are usually better on the whole than US. My life is worth investing in something to keep myself alive. I want something that will go bang every single time I pull the trigger. My Bushmaster will do that. So will a Glock. Buying guns just because they are made in the US is STUPID. Many, many other countries but US weapons, why can't we buy other countries' weapons?

mgkdrgn
November 16, 2008, 11:03 AM
John Smith started the day early having set his
alarm clock
(MADE IN JAPAN)
for 6am. While his coffeepot
(MADE IN CHINA)
was perking, he shaved with his electric razor
(MADE IN HONG KONG)
He put on a dress shirt
(MADE IN SRI LANKA),
designer jeans
(MADE IN SINGAPORE)
and tennis shoes
(MADE IN KOREA)
After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet
(MADE IN INDIA)
he sat down with his calculator
(MADE IN MEXICO)
to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch
(MADE IN TAIWAN)
to the radio
(MADE IN INDIA)
he got in his car
(MADE IN GERMANY)
filled it with GAS
(from Saudi Arabia)
and continued his search for a good paying

AMERICAN JOB.

At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day checking his Computer
(Made In Malaysia),
Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals
(MADE IN BRAZIL)
poured himself a glass of wine
(MADE IN FRANCE)
and turned on his TV
(MADE IN INDONESIA),
and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job

in AMERICA

jkingrph
November 16, 2008, 11:05 AM
I generally prefer made in the USA! I can say most of my newer guns are USA, although I did buy a CZ Safari a couple of months ago and one of their little 22 Hornet sporters a few years ago. There were no good US made Hornet bolt actions available other than the Ruger 77/22 version and I did not like itl as for the Safari the Ruger tropical was too expensive, no new Win mod 70's and the Rem I saw was made in Croatia. I also picked up a vintage Swedish Husqvarna 46 sporter in 9.3x57, a caliber unavailable in US made rifles. I have also been playing with quality mil surps, generally staying with Swiss and Swedish Mausers. I would like to find a Krag in as good a condition as some of these, but most I have seen have been sporterized or drilled or out of my price range. Marlins are another area of interest , just having acquired a nice little cl in 32-20

Aran
November 16, 2008, 11:23 AM
I love my foreign made goods. They don't fall apart in a few weeks and are more affordable than socialist... sorry, "union" made goods.

Harve Curry
November 16, 2008, 11:24 AM
If we had to fight WWII over again, could we win it outsourcing like we do now in the global economy?

rugerfreak
November 16, 2008, 11:45 AM
Try to buy American whenever possible.

If we ship off all our tooling the China--Where will we be when they decide they are done with us and attack instead of trade?

As much as they try to deny it--manufacturing is the basis of all growing economies---not services---it still comes down to you have to make something that people want to buy.

The unions are a scourge that will eventually ruin this country and themselves in the process--GM is a prime example.

jcwit
November 16, 2008, 11:50 AM
After thinking & reading more of the posts on this subject I've come to this conclusion, and saying this is not to anger anyone its just my opion in looking back on close to 70 years of watching the American people. All of us will continue to shop & buy whatever we want at whatever price without much regard as to where its made. Our government will continue giving out stimulus packages, and bailouts that will saddle our grandchildren with excesive tax depts. Bottom line is were all pawns in the big game & the winners have already been chosen, so I guess it makes no difference. Yeh I know this is a defeatist view but give me a better answer on your imported computer.

everydog
November 16, 2008, 12:16 PM
Rant on!

Third world countries have no industry to speak of, which is why they are third world countries to begin with. Current US trade policies encourage and subsidize the sale of foreign products at prices that are marked up 1000's of percentage points over the cost of manufacturing. That savings on manufacturing costs is not passed on to the consumer when you are talking about quality goods. Sure , you can go to the flea market and buy the latest widget made in God knows where for next to nothing. That is what you're leaving the market with, next to nothing.

I work for one of the largest companies in the US. At our location we have about 125 employees who last year produced 80 million dollars in sales and a 35% profit. That works out to $224,000 profit per employee. Many jobs have been lost at our location due to outsourcing parts and sub assemblies. And by the way we sell our product around the world. The only winners in this deal are executives that make hundreds of millions of dollars a year. The stock in our company has lost 70% of its value in the last ten years. The people who are producing these outsourced parts are just getting by on the wages they are payed. If you think consumers of our product benefit from outsourcing you are out of your rabid a** mind.

I am fortunate that i don't have to worry about outsourcing or my location closing. I owe that security to a good old timey American labor union. Our childrens jobs and the future of our country are however, on the highway to hell.

I don't have the answer to the problem, but i think if a company doesn't pay their laborers a decent wage they should make up the difference in tariffs. I was raised on cotton patch economics and we didn't need many entrepreneurs or executives or analyst or even lean manufacturing experts in the field . People whose hands fit a hoe or could pull a 9' pick sack put food on the table.

Rant off!

Johnny

Officers'Wife
November 16, 2008, 12:25 PM
Hi Earl,

Well, considering the anti-business atmosphere expected with the coming administration, our loyalty to American made products may be the only thing that will keep our own population employed and economy intact.

Selena

The Bushmaster
November 16, 2008, 12:40 PM
You know...I do my damnedest to buy American products. Out of 22 firearms, 4 are not American made. But if you wander through my home you will be hard pressed to find "Made in America" on much of anything.

You want to blame someone for all the Non-American made products in America? O K...The HIGH cost of manufacturing mostly because we have a society that wants someone else to support us...Sooo we have unions that see to it that we have exorbent medical insurance so medical will rise to the occasion. Wages and retirement bennifits that are outragous ($40.00 and hour plus bennifits for an auto worker? Did I hear that right?). And every time someone says "BOO" they go on strike. What ever happened to doing it yourself...I did...Without unions...

You want American made products. Quit forcing our manufactures to go abroad...And you people out of work and on welfare. Go out and take a job away from an illegal alien...Or...STOP whinning, whimpering and sniveling about "Made in China".

Zoogster
November 16, 2008, 01:16 PM
we have unions that see to it that we have exorbent medical insurance
Actualy the high cost of medical insurance is due to both the American people and the health care system.
It is because everyone is expected to pay for medical care with insurance, that makes health care so expensive. People with insurance want to use that insurance. They do not pay the direct bill themselves, thier insurance does. So they use it even when unnecessary. Millions do. That means for the health insurance business to be profitable they need to raise prices significantly.
Americans use more drugs than any other nation by far. Many of them unnecessary, or "magic pills" to fix something that excercise should. They pay for that through billing thier insurance.
Do Americans have the longest life expectancy by using far more drugs than any other modern nation as a result? No.


When people use medical services they do not haggle over various charges racked up by the hospital or doctor that is billing insurance. Because insurance is not thier money, it is the insurance companies' money. So insurance gets billed like crazy.
That means they pay out even more. The cost of insurance goes even higher, and people that then purchase it want to "use it" because who wants to buy something so expensive and never use it?
So it becomes a vicious cycle. More use, including a lot of unnecessary use results in higher rates for everyone. Higher rates means people with it don't want to waste it by not using it if they have it.
Since the health care system has built up making a living off that system they encourage people to seek even more medical care, more frequently.

So ironicly the private health care system is really more socialist than most realize, because the cost of insurance is relative to how often the population uses thier insurance. The more other people use thier insurance, even for things they wouldn't waste thier own money on, the higher the rates are for everyone. So everyone is encouraged to spend other peoples' money more to get a larger piece of the benefits pie they pay for.
Since it is not a normal supply and demand market, with prices marketed to the consumer the costs reflect that. The services are marketed to the consumer, and the prices are whatever the seller can get away with billing insurance. Insurance rather than shopping smarter like individuals would negotiates contracts, health plans, and raises rates while the bottom level costs remain similar.
The whole system results in being far less affordable to employers, and increases the cost per employee significantly.

So you see it once again has a lot to do with selfish, and even lazy (seek the magic pill rather than work for results) behavior.

qwert65
November 16, 2008, 01:39 PM
The problem with healthcare is it's very expensive thats just the way it is. In the old days medical equipment was rare there were only x-rays, ekg. in the past 20yrs there are CT, MRI, scintography, endoscopes(uses fiber optics and now digital) digital x-rays. these are all very expensive to make, train personel how to use and buy and maintain. Further they are only devolped with scientists who do nothing else and they have an upkeep of their own for the RD companies.

Now add in our lawsuit appy society which makes Drs order plenty of tests to cover their butts. and the drug testing standards that americans demand and healthcare is astronomical. That being said it's at the greatest it's ever been as far as bang for your buck. people with previsouly terminal conditions are living way longer or are cured.

Another factor, is that americans want everything and unfortunatley if you're a plumber you're not gonna get everything yet unions demand that type of pay/benifits. Don't get me wrong unions were important and still are but it's swung too much the other way and needs to become more center.

unisonic12
November 16, 2008, 02:01 PM
Interesting...got me thinking about mine. I only own one foreign pistol, a G19. The rest are Kahr, Kimber, Kel-Tec, Ruger, Seecamp, Walther (Interarms, made in Alexandria, VA), and even...shudder...an old Jennings .22. Didn't plan it that way...just happened.

1010011010
November 16, 2008, 02:51 PM
Why do our guns have to made in the USA?

Import restrictions from the 1968 Gun Control Act (http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG6.html), mostly.

Foreign guns have to meet a "sporting purposes" restriction. This generally means they have less desirable features (or more undesirable features), or have the added cost of having those parts removed/replaced/upgraded after import. The parts used to pass import restriction may not be of particularly high quality (it being understood they will be replaced by the end user). Buyers who don't replace them get an impression of poor workmanship.

armoredman
November 16, 2008, 04:40 PM
Some of your American made guns, aren't completely American made, either. I got a Keltec P11 many years ago, big American flag on the box, "100% American Made!"...and the magazing was stamped MecGar...

CoLJ
November 16, 2008, 04:43 PM
I pay taxes to the US government, interest on a mortgage to a US bank, and get my utilities from an assortment of US companies.

The *tiny* amount of money that may go to a foreign firm for my firearms is not worth my time worrying about.

mbt2001
November 16, 2008, 04:53 PM
It is harder to ban American Made... So if they (american makers) are driven out of business by outsourced overseas makers and then those makers are banned (as congress does have the power to do that) then we are SOL.

MT GUNNY
November 16, 2008, 05:24 PM
If the gobernment keeps interfering with capitalism, the firearm industry will end up like the automotive industry.

I try my best to buy American to support my American countrymen.

blackguns
November 16, 2008, 05:26 PM
Maybe your neighbor lost his job so you should only buy guns from your own town. I hope you live in Ithaca, New York.

Ithaca Gun hasn't been in Ithaca for many years. I think they are in Ohio now...

Anyway, I have had many experiences with manufacturing in the US and overseas. I used to work for a large pump company, a name that you would all know, that began buying products from "low cost of production" countries. Long story short, they had to buy 25-50% more product to meet the orders because they scrapped out that much of the imported product. They actually hired a bunch of labor to short the crap. Not to mention the lead contamination in the surface coatings. It's been like that for YEARS...it's not just dog food and candy....

I now work for the family business....a machine/stamping shop. We SELL goods to a Dutch company in China because they cannot produce the parts in country.

In my line of work it's all about quality. If you want real quality, you shop in the US, Germany and Japan. That's about it. I see firearms as just another precision piece of craftsmanship.

Manufacturing is/will return to the US. The complications and pitfalls of third world manufacturing do not truly make sense for most durable goods (read real metal) type production. Computer chips and such maybe.....maybe but not high quality iron and steel manufacturing.

browningguy
November 16, 2008, 06:12 PM
The original thread shows a very simplistic view of the world. Can we compete with $1 a day labor, no, and I don't want to. Can we compete with other countries where the government offers 0% interest financing on almost all exports, no. It's not a level playing field folks, so it has absolutely nothing to do with who does what best. The standard of manufacturing in places like Malaysia, CHina and Vietnam, to name a few, is well below the standard of US made goods. However when your labor cost is 10%% of US costs you can make it up in volume.

And I don't know of anyone that wants to earn 90% less so we can compete that way. The simple view of global economics leads to 1/2 of American workers serving burgers at McDonalds to the other 1/2 working at Walmart.

Byron Quick
November 16, 2008, 06:35 PM
"In my line of work it's all about quality. If you want real quality, you shop in the US, Germany and Japan. That's about it. I see firearms as just another precision piece of craftsmanship."

If you are talking about firearms, Czechoslovakia has been making weapons as fine as any country's since before WWII. I don't know about their other products but their arms industry is first rate to the point that it even remained first rate under communism. I know of no other industry in no other communist country that can make that claim.

unisonic12
November 16, 2008, 06:58 PM
Some of your American made guns, aren't completely American made, either. I got a Keltec P11 many years ago, big American flag on the box, "100% American Made!"...and the magazing was stamped MecGar...

Some mags ARE made in the US. They are right down the road from me. I just wish they would sell direct to the public. These are the guys who make the Kimber (close by in Yonkers, NY) proprietary double stack mags for my Pro BP Ten II hi-cap 1911.

MEC-GAR USA, INC.
905 Middle Street
Middletown, CT 06457

unisonic12
November 16, 2008, 07:00 PM
So has Italy. Isn't Beretta the oldest major firearm company that's still around?

DRYHUMOR
November 16, 2008, 07:10 PM
Even the American firearms manufacturers have products made overseas. Some of very good quality, and some not.

Made in the USA labels must have a certain percentage of US parts to wear that label.

Looked at a Leupold scope box lately? Compare an old one to a new one. I once had a Springfield .45 that had a Brazilian frame. Even though many items are assembled in the US they may have enough components to dis allow the "Made in USA" tag. Look closely at some Carhartts, check out the tag, last stuff I looked at was made in Mexico. My Danner boots, China.

It's gotten bad for the US manufacturers, too many jobs lost to the constant clamor for dividends.

Well... where are those dividends now shareholders? The whole economy is in the crapper.

Now would be an excellent time to create jobs and products in the US. Will it happen? I can see no reason not to...

M203Sniper
November 16, 2008, 08:01 PM
Mainly because I can't go buy a Glock 25 or 28 in the U.S because of idiotic importation regulations set up by a damn Communist regime.

Dookie
November 17, 2008, 02:56 AM
The truth is the US has been living on reputation for a few decades when it comes to manufacturing. Build a better car than Japan and people will buy it. When I have to work for my money and I see a CZ that is cheaper and better quality than a Rem or Win, gonna pass on the Remmy.

You want my business you have to EARN it, stop wasting my time by bragging about useless advertising and show me WHY I should buy it, not because your 30 year old chevy is still running, but why I should spend 30G on a ride that has higher maintenance cost, worse fuel economy, shorter lifespan, lower resale than a 15K civic.

Put up or shut up.

Aran
November 17, 2008, 08:01 AM
And on the topic of the Civic, they're made in the USA ;) Mine was built in East Liberty, Ohio.

P97
November 17, 2008, 08:43 AM
Why I buy made in the USA. If someone puts in a little convenience store close to me, and everyone in the neighborhood goes to the Wal-mart Super-Center in the next town, the little store can't last. But if all the neighbors support the little store, they hire local people to work in the store because they know everybody in the community, and help the local schools programs, and help the City. The money stays local, and I have a better chance of getting it again.

Put this on a Country wide basis. If I don't support Companies that hire local workers, and support our local Gov. and people, will I have a chance to get the money again? Will it be better for me if they send everything out of the country? This is just my personal opinion, you can flame me if you want, but I can guarantee you it will not change my opinion. If you don't support your local country first, you have no business living there , and should move to the countries that you support. :)

Aran
November 17, 2008, 10:05 AM
So if your WalMart is in the same town as your convenience store, there's no issue there right P97?

The Bushmaster
November 17, 2008, 10:21 AM
Bryon Quick...That's two countries now..And has been ever sense the USSR went under in 1989. By Jan 1, 1993 they were Czech Republic and Slovakia. Which one makes the firearms? And are they as good now as they were when it was one country?

Pilot
November 17, 2008, 10:39 AM
I buy guns based on what I like, not what country it comes from. That being said, I own many U.S. made firearms.

jerkface11
November 17, 2008, 11:08 AM
About half of my guns are American made. The rest come from all over. Let's face it you can't beat a CZ rimfire. I really don't look at where a gun was made when I buy it. As long as it's a quality firearm.

Dookie
November 17, 2008, 12:45 PM
And on the topic of the Civic, they're made in the USA Mine was built in East Liberty, Ohio.Built by Americans, all the profit going to Japan. An American made Honda is not the same quality as a Japanese made Honda, same parts, different assemblers. I know a few Honda techs and they all say the US built cars are not put together with the same care as Japanese made cars. He told us that a head from Japan came around and could pick out the US assembled vehicles from the Japanese assembled vehicles because of how the fenders and bumpers lined up, or didn't. And that the US built vehicles have a higher cost of ownership. Far less than if you were to buy a US brand vehicle, and considerably cheaper than owning a European built car.

THAT should tell us all something about why people buy foreign made products. Americans just don't care about building a quality product like they used to.

There is a reason why my 70 year old Savage will out shoot my new Savage. Why my 1967 10/22 is considerably more accurate and better built than my 3 year old model. Why my Remington 600 feels better, has a better trigger, and is more accurate than my now long gone "target" model 700.

Product used to be built to far higher standards than they are now, because they did not have the technology to build them like we do today they had to be built tougher. And now that technology is far higher manufacturing companies have dropped the quality.

Why do you think we still drive our 68 Chevies and Dodges and have very little maintenance cost compared to our new vehicles? Because Honda and Toyota are building cars with the same quality and pride that the US used to have, and the US auto makers are trying to play catch up.

The Bushmaster
November 17, 2008, 01:33 PM
I don't know about that, Dookie. My 1998 Silverado made in Texas (probably by mexicans) and my Kimber UCC II are American made and are of the highest quality and have not cost me anything except normal up keep like tires and oil changes. I have just a little over 100,000 miles on the Chevy and just over 1,000 rounds through the Kimber. Yup the handgun is new.

We still make excellent products here. We just have to get the price down. Of course the unions wouldn't like my solution one itty-bitty bit...

TEDDY
November 17, 2008, 02:26 PM
dont blame the unions altho they do have some blame.BLAME THE EVIORMENTAL LAWS ANT THE TAX STUCTURE.
New England was the center of the textile manufactoring.the machinery was not updated and r&d was ignored(draper corp)soon it moved to the south(we have low wages)now it has gone overseas.companies were forced to clean up the air and ground.OVER SEAS.wages went up and workers had money to spend,cost went up.medical benifits were given.then greed began.mean while in the south right to work law went into effect.wages stayed low,no medical,no pensions.the south is still in poverty.
as to oil the price depends not on the oil comp but on the stock market people buy futures and hope to make a killing.why do you think the price of gas has dropped so far????every one got out of oil futures.
and last REM/marlin/h&R is owned by a financial group as is Savage.the best guns colt made were the small autos.the 45 was loose as a goose.why they could not have double stacked it,and made it 9mm one will never know.the new mg is made in belgium,the pistol is Italian.:banghead::rolleyes::uhoh:

Byron Quick
November 17, 2008, 03:09 PM
"Bryon Quick...That's two countries now..And has been ever sense the USSR went under in 1989. By Jan 1, 1993 they were Czech Republic and Slovakia. Which one makes the firearms? And are they as good now as they were when it was one country?"

I knew that but had forgotten it...thanks. From the CZ website it appears to be the Czech Republic that makes the firearms.

As far as whether they are as good now as when it was one country, I haven't heard any complaints. I have firearms made before-BRNO 602ZKK-and afterwards-CZ550FS and CZ452-I can't tell a difference in quality.

danweasel
November 17, 2008, 04:29 PM
Just a quick note to put out there. MRI's cost about 90 bucks in Japan. Maybe like $2000 here. Oh and they are done on portable MRI machines.

Healthcare does not HAVE to be so expensive.

Anyways I support my local business and try to never shop at walmart but it can be hard. I also bought an XD and was suprised that it was made in Croatia. So yeah, I buy American if it's practical. I am a practical kinda guy.

Aran
November 17, 2008, 04:44 PM
My Civic, before it was rear ended THREE TIMES in a year, was perfect. Almost four years old now and despite that has given me zero issues.

jhco50
November 17, 2008, 10:29 PM
I buy American whenever I can afford them because I'm American...100%.

Texshooter
November 17, 2008, 10:34 PM
Well, our Republic might be on the verge of not having any American owned car manufacturers.

Can you only imagine if there were no pistols made in the U.S. of A.? We would be totally hostage to the gun control U.N.

Dookie
November 18, 2008, 02:54 AM
My 1998 Silverado made in Texas (probably by mexicans) and my Kimber UCC II are American made and are of the highest quality and have not cost me anything except normal up keep like tires and oil changes.Sorry, did not mean to lump US made pickups in with my tirade. My brother has a BRAND new Tundra TRD, sweet pickup, has all the options, big engine, everything, it gets out hauled by his friends 95 dodge ram 360, and another friends 2002 chevy diesel, and still gets worse fuel mileage. It's a great truck, but more of a tough toy than a worker.

No one makes a pickup like American, Ford, Dodge or Chevy. Except Isuzu.

Albatross
November 18, 2008, 03:14 AM
It's sort of funny how no one cares where the bullets they shoot are/were made.

Anyone buy only US made ammo?

P97
November 18, 2008, 08:15 AM
I reload my center fire ammo, but I buy USA components. :)

Harve Curry
November 18, 2008, 08:19 AM
I reload and buy all USA components.
22's and muzzleloaders to, all USA.

Phil DeGraves
November 18, 2008, 09:20 AM
WHY "Made in the USA"


Because it is easier to get parts if necessary.

unisonic12
November 18, 2008, 05:25 PM
It's sort of funny how no one cares where the bullets they shoot are/were made.

Uh, maybe because foreign sources are the only way to get it? I don't see any domestically produced 5.45 x 39 for my AK-74.

unisonic12
November 18, 2008, 05:31 PM
Because it is easier to get parts if necessary.

Really? Parts for my Glock are a dime a dozen and available everywhere. I say this because the OP was about guns.

If we're talking cars, I've NEVER had problems getting any parts for my Hondas.

US made? Had to wait a week for a back ordered part at the dealer for my wife's...Saturn. Back when I had a new POS Jeep Cherokee, the O2 sensor went out at 7,000 miles, stalled the engine and gave me a check engine light. It started back up and I drove it to the dealer only to have it sit for TWO FRIGGIN' WEEKS because the sensor was back ordered and they said I had to leave it because it could damage the engine if I kept driving it and the warranty would be violated. Oh, sorry, we don't do loaner cars, either. I asked them to pull a sensor off a vehicle in the lot and let THEM wait two weeks, but no...they don't "cannibalize". I asked if they would reimburse me for buying an OEM sensor at an auto parts store and they said no even though it was well under warranty. This is the same Jeep that dropped the exhaust system from the manifold header back to and including the muffler TWICE within 20k miles. :roll:

And they wonder why that's the last American car I ever bought. My wife's POS Saturn is only there because that's what she had when we got married. It will NOT be replaced by another one.

blackguns
November 18, 2008, 07:02 PM
When talking about commodity type products i.e. nuts, bolts, small appliances....all the stuff sold in the dollar store and 95% of the stuff sold at Lowes, Walmart & Target the quality is awful. It is cheap but it is CHEAP.

I have customers that buy nuts, bolts, washers and other high volume commodity type products from me not because I am as cheap as over seas but because 100% of what I ship is right. If they need something changed I walk out to the production floor and change it. If they need it tomorrow I deliver it, I provide a decent place to work for my few employees because I get good money for doing a good job.

If we as consumers were willing to shop for "MADE IN THE USA" and pay a fair price for a QUALITY product we would support our own economy. Things that are not quality don't get purchased and the good products survive.

I know of a high end reloading equipment company that is looking for USA suppliers to make some of the dies, tools and other components that they sell. Absolutely no doubt he could buy them cheaper off shore than from me, but he is rightfully obsessed with quality and will only work with companies that share his obsession.

Would you keep buying reloading equipment from Company X if you saw the quality of the product slide? Even if it was cheaper?

Quality is worth the cost but we as consumers can't even tell the difference anymore.

twoclones
November 18, 2008, 07:53 PM
Why do our guns have to made in the USA?

To give jobs to Americans.

rogertc1
November 19, 2008, 06:33 AM
Bail out GM with my tax $'s so the union fork truck driver can still Make $75,000 and get the same amount when retired.
It is a wonder we still have manufacturing jobs in the USA at least for now.

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