Three bullets failed to stop home intruder, records say


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Aikibiker
September 18, 2003, 02:19 AM
This one ended with a win for our side, but it sounds like it was a near thing. Glad the gentleman and his family are safe.

Three bullets failed to stop home intruder, records say (http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2003/09/16/51848.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=News&sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_news)

Any comments on his tactics?

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Frank P.
September 18, 2003, 02:24 AM
Isn't there a saying that goes like "2 in the belly one in the head gurenteed to leave him dead?" Perhaps he should of shot the man in the head, im not a forensic scientest or a gunwound expert but wouldnt a .357 mag round to the skull of this fella would stop him? Just my thoughts

Frank P.

Sven
September 18, 2003, 02:31 AM
It's all about shot placement.

A .22 in the eye? Game over.

Aikibiker
September 18, 2003, 02:36 AM
Perhaps, but I don't know of any drills to help you headshot a schizophrenic playing peekaboo in your doorway.

Could you do as well?

Frank P.
September 18, 2003, 02:41 AM
Good point i didnt see the part where it said he left one cylinder free, im sure he isnt going to make that mistake again. As for can i do better, i have never been in that situation so i can't honestly tell you but if i am ever put in that situation i hope i can acomplish the 2 in the belly one in the head techniuqe.

BluesBear
September 18, 2003, 02:53 AM
Cryderman, who had loaded the gun with Federal brand ammunition called Hydra-Shok, told investigators he kept one cylinder in the revolver empty and put the revolver hammer on that empty cylinder during storage.

Proves that most Gannett reporters don't know their chamber from a hole in the cylinder.

Three of Cryderman’s five shots hit Hetrick: in the upper torso, the thigh and in the foot. The shot to the thigh ultimately proved fatal, severing Hetrick’s femoral artery.

Hydra-Shoks only work when you hit them with it.

Repeat after me. "Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement."
"Center mass, center mass, center mass."

Just because the Lone Ranger and Gene Autry could stop the bad guys with a flesh wound doesn't mean it's effective in the real world.

But Hetrick still kept moving through the home, so Cryderman got his unloaded shotgun with over-and-under barfels. He had no ammunition, so with the gun still in the case he began beating Hetrick with it, the report said.

Whadaya call a shot gun without ammunition? A stick.

Hetrick’s relatives showed investigators seven bottles of prescription medication Hetrick had stopped taking and his mother, Linda Minor, described him as a danger to himself and others when he stopped taking medication, the reports said.

His doctors should have prescribed: Take 3 Hydra-Shocks and don't call us anymore.

Jim March
September 18, 2003, 03:29 AM
Not what I'd call an ELEGANT solution...but, hey, it DID work :). The wacko was slowed down enough to matter.

Federal is my LAST choice for 38+P JHPs from a short barrel. Gold Dot 125 38+Ps, Winchester 130+P Supremes or the old lead 158+P hollowpoint might have done better, couldn't have been any worse.

Trebor
September 18, 2003, 03:40 AM
Jim,

The revolver was identified as a S&W .357. Why do you think it was loaded with .38 Specials?

Given all the specific details mentioned in the article (the make and caliber of the gun, the empty chamber under the hammer and the brand and type of ammo), I think that if something OTHER then .357 Magnum was loaded, it would have been mentioned as well.

Of course, there is the question of whether or not Federal makes Hydra-Shoks in .357?

Pinned&Recessed
September 18, 2003, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by Trebor
Of course, there is the question of whether or not Federal makes Hydra-Shoks in .357?

They do.

158gr. at 1240 fps out of a 4" tube. I've chrono'ed some in my 4" S&W M19 and velocity averaged about 1225 with a high and low of 1240/1202 respectively. I didn't test expansion, but recall tests where it routinely expanded to well over .60 caliber. Not a bad round. Big hollowpoint cavity and it was the only .357 Magnum round to pass the FBI barrier/penetration tests. Full power 10mm also passed.

Federal is weird. They design a great bullet: The various Hydra-Shoks and the Hi-shok for example, but then put a wimpy powder charge behind some of them. They are very bad about this with .38 Special, as Jim March has mentioned. They have some good .38 loads, you just gotta test them.

I personally think the .357 Hydrashok is a damn good round and I pick it up when I cannot get the 158gr. .357 Nyclad.

mete
September 18, 2003, 04:32 AM
There is no sure thing and those that have mental problems with or without medicines may very well be immune to "stopping power" because of their messed up nervous systems. Leaving a chamber empty is dumb. This is also a lesson for those who "don't want to kill him" and just shoot him in the leg -- if the bullet severs the femoral artery he will die.

seeker_two
September 18, 2003, 06:19 AM
Morals to the story:

1. Shot placement is far more critical than caliber.

2. Keep ammo for EVERY gun you have.


Glad it worked out for the right side...:)

NewShooter78
September 18, 2003, 06:43 AM
One shot in the foot. I wonder how he managed that one! :eek: Shot placement has already been mentioned, but what about tactical reload?

marvl
September 18, 2003, 06:52 AM
In that situation I would have grabbed my loaded Para-Ord P-13 and a spare mag, giving me a total of 25 rounds of .45 (I keep 1 in the chamber, and load the 13-round mags 1 light). Although it only takes 1 good CNS shot, this fella's experience shows more is better when it comes to available shots. Frankly, 5 available shots just don't cut it for me. Especially after hearing some of my LEO friends' stories about dealing with perps high on PCP.

I also wonder if this is a person who shoots regularly. I've known people I worked with who would buy a handgun for protection, load it, and store it-- never trying it out for function and accuracy, nor practicing with it. These were first-time gun owners, too. I cringe when I think about it.

Tamara
September 18, 2003, 08:01 AM
But Hetrick still kept moving through the home, so Cryderman got his unloaded shotgun with over-and-under barfels. He had no ammunition, so with the gun still in the case he began beating Hetrick with it, the report said.

Today's lesson: When everything seems to be going to hell, stay in the fight!

El Tejon
September 18, 2003, 08:28 AM
Tomorrow's lesson: don't get in fights.

Load the shotgun=no fight.

Why people keep unloaded guns around is beyond me.:confused:

Tamara
September 18, 2003, 08:31 AM
What do you want to bet that Mr. Cryderman was in line at WallyWorld the next day with a box of 2 3/4" Winchesters in his hand? ;)


(Having unloaded guns around is just fine, so long as one also has a sufficient number of loaded ones, of course. :D )

RWK
September 18, 2003, 08:43 AM
My hat is off to the victim. No, he certainly is not a “gun guy” – and that nearly cost him and his family dearly. However, he used what he had, with marginal skill and effectiveness, and he saved himself and his loved ones.

Many previous posts have emphasized accuracy – shot placement – and I heartily agree. Also, having an UNLOADED shotgun was nonsensical. Further, having no readily accessible reload was a significant flaw. All this said, the goblin did NOT reach the children and eventually died. Mission successful, although a near disaster. The essential lesson is clear: even minor enhancements to the gentlemen’s home-defense plan would have made tremendous differences:
1. Enough practice to get two rounds (of five) in the central mass/cranial cavity
2. A sixth round in the S&W
3. .357 magnum loads, instead of .38 Specials
4. An at-hand tactical reload
5. A ready-to-fire shotgun

I strongly suspect that if ANY of these marginal changes had been made the felon would have been quickly dispatched.

Best regards to all.

jsalcedo
September 18, 2003, 08:52 AM
Sheesh.

This story is going to to make me more vigilant.

Right now I have a VZOR 70 .32acp and two magazines hidden downstairs and a Taurus .357 loaded with .38 wadcutters upstairs.

The rest of them are unloaded and locked up.

I think I'm going to load up my Mossberg and keep that handy as well.

riverdog
September 18, 2003, 09:07 AM
I agree with RWK's last post, but would add that the first two shots should have been from the shotgun. Two rounds of 00 Buck center mass and the S&W's six rounds of .357 (as a back-up weapon) should have ended the fight regardless of mental/psychological state.

Personally, I use a 12 ga Rem 870/00 Buck as primary with a 1911 as back-up ... and I practice.

El Tejon
September 18, 2003, 09:07 AM
Tam, no bet! :D

boltaction
September 18, 2003, 09:14 AM
The double tap plus one (to the head) is a great idea in theory, but in the heat of the terrible moment we see related here, that one to the head, well, could more likely wind up in the wall or out the door. We all know it is a matter of practice, practice, but for those of us who will experience this once in a lifetime, it is awfully tough to be sure how we will perform.

That is why some prefer to preach the idea that you "fire for effect" (i.e. until "stopping" is achieved) with the intended target the thoracic triangle (nipple-nipple-throat). Another idea is that after one shot to the triangle (or even before) the perp may duck, causing shots to go high (the bobbing triangle problem). SO some now suggest the "zipper", where your first shot is to the navel area, and you "zipper up" the subsequent shots to the triangle. Six of one and half dozen of another, I am afraid, as you CAN levy criticisms at any of these ideas. The navel shot could easily kill the intruder, but it may not STOP him for many minutes (e.g 20 minutes). He/She could do lots of damage in that time. It has been said here that shot placement is critical, and beyond HAVING THE LOADED FIREARMSSS, and being sure of their reliability, that is correct.

The problem is that the correct placement is difficult to achieve - CNS, aorta (the latter yielding catastrophic lowering of bloop pressure, resulting in a "stop") being effective, as well as those that cause lung hemorrhage. And to make matters worse, not all CNS shots are "equal". the base of the brain/upper spine is best. All of this again argues for the T-triangle, but again, you gotta hit it.

Mete also had many good points (an in much less space that I am taking up) so yeah, altered states can affect these conclusions greatly; DO NOT leave that one chamber empty; and yeah - when you shoot, it can be deadly no matter where you hit, if you hit an artery or otherwise cause massive bleeding.

e-nuf
Boltaction

brownie0486
September 18, 2003, 09:25 AM
If you are close enough to put one in the head on the third round, probably should think about doing it with the first round.

I've never been one for 2 to the breadbasket and one to the head anyway.

Under strees, perhaps the first one gets off quickly on the bigger target [ the chest ] in startle mode due to time constraints initially.

If you are in the fight and have the time to "aim" , go for the head shot. Too many people are wearing armor these days when they commit crimes.

You should be able to keep all your shots inside a ten inch circle at combat distances. If you can't, keep practicing until you can attain that goal with some semblance of speed as well.

In the classes, I put forward the idea that you are handicapping yourself by practicing to hit an 18"x 20" chest area. Not all bad guys will be facing you to give you that much area to hit. If you are good at hitting that big area and they turn, hide behind a wall, corner of the building, have a hostage and are presenting a much smaller target you are then faced with a much smaller area to connect on.

Better to practice on 10" pie plates [ the size of a head ], get good at hitting it with speed. Stay away from the larger targets and use the 10" exclusively.

When the time comes to use it defensively in startle mode under attack, if the target is bigger than the 10" you can hold you will find it easier to shoot fast and still hit the bigger target. It almost becomes easy after the lessons on the 10" plates.

The body may present a smaller target than you practice on at the range as it twists and turns. The head is always going to be 10" no matter how the body is turned.

If you have time to aim the weapon at all, can keep your shots inside the 10" diameter reliably with speed, why wait to find out he's wearing armor while taking incoming?

Brownie

Tim Burke
September 18, 2003, 09:27 AM
He might have done a lot of things wrong, but he did 3 very important things right.
1. Have a gun. √
2. Stay in the fight. √
3. Win. √
If one's check list looks like that at the end of the fight, I would consider that a very good thing.
Congratulations To Mr. Cryderman.

pax
September 18, 2003, 09:27 AM
The article under discussion, from http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2003/09/16/51848.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=News&sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_news

Three bullets failed to stop home intruder, records say

RENO GAZETTE-JOURNAL
9/16/2003 11:26 pm

Like a scene in a horror movie, three bullets from Charles Cryderman’s .357 magnum revolver didn’t stop the intruder who broke into his Douglas County home Aug. 2, according to reports released Tuesday.

So Cryderman, 51, grabbed a shotgun out of his bedroom and, lacking shells for it, clubbed Walter Francis Hetrick, 40, over the head and upper torso hard enough to break the gun, Douglas County Sheriff’s Office reports said.

After the shotgun came apart, Cryderman “said he continued striking Hetrick with the butt of the shotgun as Hetrick crawled down the hallway towards the children’s bedroom,” one report said.

Cryderman could see Hetrick was “running out of gas,” the report said, and Cryderman pleaded with Hetrick to “stay there” and stop crawling down the hallway.

Moments later, sheriff’s deputies swarmed the home, handcuffing a bloody Hetrick and ending the trauma to Cryderman. His wife and their two children were hiding in a bathroom.

Hetrick later died in a hospital.

Recounting the incident later for investigators, Cryderman said it was like the movie “Friday the 13th” or “like Jack Nicholson in ‘The Shining,’ ” a report said.

Prosecutors said Aug. 29 they wouldn’t file criminal charges against Cryderman for the death of Hetrick, who spent most of the last 20 years in California psychiatric hospitals for the 1984 murder of a friend.

District Attorney Scott Doyle returned from vacation last week. The investigative reports were not released until Tuesday, after Doyle had reviewed the decision not to prosecute and also decided not to hold a coroner’s inquest, sheriff’s Sgt. Tom Mezzetta said.

Cryderman declined to comment Tuesday on the contents of the reports, which recount in detail what happened at the Log Cabin Road home.

Cryderman was watching television when Hetrick, whom he had never met, showed up at his door and asked, “Is Stacy here?” the reports said. Cryderman told him he had the wrong house.

The 6-foot-1, 230-pound Hetrick became angry, starting talking about rape and began pounding on the door, the reports said.

As Cryderman got his Smith & Wesson revolver from a bedroom, the noise at the front door stopped. Cryderman thought Hetrick might have left, the reports said.

Then Hetrick began banging on a side door, saw Cryderman was armed and yelled, “Put the gun down,” the reports said.

Hetrick threw a brick against the door and kicked it open. Cryderman fired, and the door slammed shut. Hetrick kicked the door open twice more, and Cryderman fired one shot both times, the reports said.

Hetrick “finally lunged into the residence,” the reports said, and Cryderman fired twice more, using up the five rounds in the six-shot revolver.

Cryderman, who had loaded the gun with Federal brand ammunition called Hydra-Shok, told investigators he kept one cylinder in the revolver empty and put the revolver hammer on that empty cylinder during storage.

Three of Cryderman’s five shots hit Hetrick: in the upper torso, the thigh and in the foot. The shot to the thigh ultimately proved fatal, severing Hetrick’s femoral artery.

But Hetrick still kept moving through the home, so Cryderman got his unloaded shotgun with over-and-under barfels. He had no ammunition, so with the gun still in the case he began beating Hetrick with it, the report said.

Hetrick grabbed the shotgun at one point and the two struggled over it, but Cryderman got it back and continued beating him, even after the case came open and the shotgun game apart, the reports said.

Two days after the break-in, investigators talked to Hetrick’s mother and aunt in Antioch, Calif.

Hetrick’s relatives showed investigators seven bottles of prescription medication Hetrick had stopped taking and his mother, Linda Minor, described him as a danger to himself and others when he stopped taking medication, the reports said.

pax

TheOtherOne
September 18, 2003, 10:19 AM
5. A ready-to-fire shotgunWhat do you mean by ready-to-fire? I keep a shotgun that is not loaded but has the tube full of 5 rounds of buckshot.

I like the idea that alot of would-be intruders will possibly be detterred just by the sound of pumping the shotgun.

Tamara
September 18, 2003, 10:23 AM
I keep a shotgun that is not loaded but has the tube full of 5 rounds of buckshot.

Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but that means you have a loaded shotgun. :uhoh:

TheOtherOne
September 18, 2003, 10:35 AM
I've always thought loaded meant a round in the chamber.

Augustwest
September 18, 2003, 10:50 AM
Loaded, not chambered, I'd call it.

cordex
September 18, 2003, 10:51 AM
Oooh! Semantics! Can I play? (And anyone who doesn't like it is a Nazi ... everyone knows Hitler was anti-Semantic.)
Maybe ....
Loaded magazine tube.
Unloaded shotgun.

Or should that only apply to weapons whose magazine is detachable?

Or maybe whenever a loaded magazine is attached to the weapon, it is loaded?

So much to think about, so much to figure out.

TheOtherOne
September 18, 2003, 11:35 AM
If I'm reading this law right (here in Utah anyways), the gun wouldn't be loaded with just a full magazine.

76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.

(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.


Anyways, sorry for getting this off the subject. I never have more than one gun that I would consider to actually be loaded in the house (and it's almost always on me or within reach when it is). I have others like my shotgun that aren't far from being loaded though and, as long as I can get to it quick enough, I still consider my shotgun as my primary home defense weapon.

riverdog
September 18, 2003, 11:41 AM
... in California a gun is loaded if you have cartridges in a magazine which is in proximity (eg., the same range bag) to the gun. Mag doesn't need to be inserted in the weapon. Crazy but that's how the law is interpreted.

Keith
September 18, 2003, 11:47 AM
... and I thought it was the unloaded guns you had to watch out for...


Keith

TheeBadOne
September 18, 2003, 12:07 PM
This guy did good, he met the challenge and answered the call. Remember, he wasn't shooting at a stationary paper target, or a bowling pin, or swinging gong. He was shooting at a large angry mobile psychotic intruder who was not just standing still waiting for sight allignment and trigger squeeze.
Are there lessons learned from mistakes made? Dang tooting, and there always will be. Nothing goes perfect, ever, except on paper. Ask anyone who's seen the elephant (whether it be Military Vet, Cop, or Civillian) about their experiance. ***** happens.
As pointed out, this guy stayed in the fight. His determination won the day. His revolver did the trick by slowing the large angry nut down and leveling the playing feild. A point here is to show why a shotgun is favored for home defense by some people=hit ability >handgun (stopping power too). Some prefer a handgun for being more maneuverable, none will argue that a handgun equals the on target blast of a shotgun. (Ask the SWAT boys, there's still plenty of scatter guns used by the 'MP5' boys).
Hopefully some others will be awakened by this experiance locally and become interested in 2nd Amendment preservation.

XavierBreath
September 18, 2003, 12:10 PM
I think Cryderman did fine. He is alive and so are his kids. Hetrick is dead.

I can see how a person might get shot in the foot while kicking a door down. Even at that, if you want to fault the shooter's aim, next time you are at the range, try moving targets. Put a milk jug on a cord, throw it out, and have a friend pull it across rough terrain (while standing behind you of course) while you try to hit a target that is moving erratically all over the place. Reach up and wiggle the wires at an indoor range to get your target dipping from side to side. See how your groups are then. Thugs will not stand still for you.

For me, the moral of the story is to have a home defense shotgun. Have it loaded. Use it. The revolver should have been a secondary weapon and would likely have not been needed if a loaded 12 gauge was at hand.

But in the end, Cryderman did great. He did not give up, he defended his children, he persevered and lived. He was able to transition from a useless empty revolver to a club, and slowed down the BG so that he died from blood loss before he could harm anyone. My hat is off to you Mr. Cryderman. I hope you and your family are not overly traumatized by this. Get the kids therapy if needed. It's a shame that more people have not done as well, and few could have done better with the same level of preparedness.

ShaiVong
September 18, 2003, 12:19 PM
YIKES :what:

C.R.Sam
September 18, 2003, 12:25 PM
I think the victom did great.
Not perfect but great.
He didn't quit and he stopped the bad guy.

A lot of uniforms, civillian and military, have demonstrated far worse shooting.

Sam

GSB
September 18, 2003, 01:05 PM
but wouldnt a .357 mag round to the skull of this fella would stop him?

Not always, actually. You actually want to hit a small rectangle encompassing the eyes and nose area. The skull can be problematic. It's happened that a round will hit the skull at a slightly oblique angle, then instead of penetrating it will take the path of least resistance and travel under the scalp, along the top of the skull, and out.

Daedalus
September 18, 2003, 02:09 PM
Something like this happened to an old neighbor of mine.
A large house in the neighborhood was being run by a couple who acted as caretakers for the mentally challenged. One of the larger specimens escaped and wandered over to my neighbor's house. My neighbor was in the living room, reading the paper and watching television when this colossal 6'2 tall and 4' wide grunting gentleman barges into the living room and promptly sits down on the couch and watches television with him. Unarmed and unsure of what to do, he slowly got up and went to the phone and called the cops. After about 20 minutes, the cops finally come. They tried to move this guy but he wouldnt get up so they ended up tazing him and hauling him out.
My old neighbor decided it was time to buy a few firearms after that and I decided it was time to move out.

Gus Dddysgrl
September 18, 2003, 02:20 PM
One more reason for me to go buy a gun in a month and continue to pratice shooting. This is a good reason for all to learn to handle a gun of any sort and be able to use it at anytime if the moment calls for it.

Gus

capnrik
September 18, 2003, 02:25 PM
Before we keep bashing this fellow for only having five rounds loaded, why not find out the make of the revolver? I carry my Colt's Single Action Army .357 with the hammer down on an empty chamber. Anyone familiar with classic single actions knows that this is the only safe way to carry. A newer design like the Ruger, with a transfer bar can be safely carried with six.

To load a Colt's, open the gate and load one chamber, then skip one, then load four. Then cock the piece and then lower the hammer on the empty chamber.

If Cryderman's gun was a older design like mine, then it was loaded properly. Most people would assume three hits out of five from such a weapon would be effective. And in fact, they were.

Keith
September 18, 2003, 02:26 PM
I'm going to pick up some cheap golf clubs at a garage sale - I'll be damned if I'll bust up one of my guns beating an intruder if I run out of ammo!

As for not having a sixth round in his revolver, that's a good practice with some old handguns. And really, you'd figure five rounds would be enough to discourage the average burglar!

Keith

Silver Bullet
September 18, 2003, 02:46 PM
This makes me wonder how many homeowners have been killed by intruders because the homeowner couldn't remove a trigger lock fast enough.

Of course, the media would cover it up.

BluesBear
September 18, 2003, 02:58 PM
As Cryderman got his Smith & Wesson revolver from a bedroom, the noise at the front door stopped. Cryderman thought Hetrick might have left, the reports said.

Vic303
September 18, 2003, 03:07 PM
The revolver was identified as a S&W .357. Why do you think it was loaded with .38 Specials?

Less fodder for the Land Shark attorneys maybe?

Double Maduro
September 18, 2003, 03:31 PM
So when are they going to sue the family of the dead man?

They knew he was a danger when he quit taking his meds and they knew he quit taking them. This whole incident could have been prevented, and the dead man would still be alive if his family had turned him in.

Sounds like good grounds for a law suit to me.

DM

Penforhire
September 18, 2003, 03:52 PM
I can't see why many of you expect him to have his shotgun loaded. They are harder to keep loaded, safe from children (note he has kids), but available, than handguns. I always grab a handgun from a Gunvault first. My 870 is unloaded and in a closet. I do keep a box of 12 ga ammo in the Gunvault in case I need it. I suppose I could spend more $$ and buy a quick-style lock for the 870 but I always figure Mr. 357 Magnum, Mr. 9 mm, or Mr. 1911 can solve my likely immediate problems.

Interesting encounter. I would've beat on him with my 870 too. Only, after I ran out of speed loaders and spare mags...

Trebor
September 18, 2003, 04:19 PM
The gun was identified as a Smith and Wesson .357 Magnum loaded with Federal Hydra-Shoks. There is NO indication that it was loaded with .38 Specials instead of .357 Mags.

The owner obviously intended for the revolver to be his home defense weapon. The shotgun was an over/under and he probably considered it to be for "sporting" use only. With that in mind, I don't really fault him for not having the shotgun assembled and loaded.

It's interesting that he knew enough to get modern, JHP defensive ammo for the revolver. The only mistakes he made with the revolver was in keeping one chamber empty under the hammer (no need in a DA S&W) and in not having spare ammo handy. A speedloader would have been nice, but he still could have reloaded with loose rounds if that's all he had. He did have time to fetch the unloaded shotgun and could have just as easily gotten extra revolver ammo if he had it instead.

All in all, he didn't do bad. He kept in the fight and ultimately won. He could have been slightly better prepared (extra ammo or loaded longgun), but he had to the "Will to prevail" and that's what counted in the end.

Just think how this story might have been different if he HADN"T had the revolver and would have called "911" to protect him instead.

Quartus
September 18, 2003, 04:49 PM
Like a scene in a horror movie, three bullets from Charles Cryderman’s .357 magnum revolver didn’t stop the intruder


Actually, that's the only time Hollywierd gets it right. One shot stops are the exception, not the rule.


Oooh! Semantics! Can I play? (And anyone who doesn't like it is a Nazi ... everyone knows Hitler was anti-Semantic.)



:what: cordex!!!!!

You oughta be flogged for that one!


:D

Jim March
September 18, 2003, 04:53 PM
Somehow, on first read, I got the idea that he was running 38+P.

On second read, y'all are right, we don't know that.

I rather suspect it's the case, as this guy appears to be a handgun newbie yet knew enough to load Hydrashocks - odds are, he also "knew" he couldn't handle full-on 357. Remember, he doesn't trust himself enough to carry a live one under the hammer.

But we don't know for sure.

As for "zippering", that's possibly what he did with the three rounds that connected? If the sequence went foot-leg-chest...?

Agreed that he still managed to win. Kewl!

On clubs: if you're going to go get a golf club, DON'T. They're not strong enough, they're too long for indoors use and the end provides WAY too good a "handle" for the other guy. Sure, they'll work in a pinch, but...what you WANT is a bokken!

Go down to most martial arts supply stores - a bokken is a hardwood version of a Japanese sword, used as both a practice aid (heft is ballpark close to live steel) and as a weapon in it's own right in both modern and classical times. The speed available is WAY past what you can get out of a baseball bat. I posted some info on these before, just do a search on my name plus the search term "bokken" (no quotes) to get detailed links and pics. There is another related critter that's even heavier that is to be avoided (looks like a bent cricket bat except narrower) that is used for strength training. Go with a bokken in a good hardwood like hickory unless you REALLY want the heft of a baseball bat - in which case that oversize critter will be about that, but with a narrower edge to seriously increase the stopping power.

With any club (or even sword), your first targets should be the knees. STAY IN MOTION, hit and run, move sideways and circle a lot. Throw stuff at him the whole time.

On the wall of my new digs is a sword rack I made myself out of kydex, hanging over my bed. The bottom-most item (first available to grab when I'm in bed) is a bokken.

Next up from that is a battle-grade Katana (Himalayan Imports Everest Katana SN1). (Also available: combat-type khukuri, possibly THE best indoor-use one-handed blade, for off-hand use when armed with a gun.)

Plus snubby and speedloader, of course :).

I ain't gonna break a shotgun over some fool's head. I'll cut the SOB clean in half if I have to :evil:.

cordex
September 18, 2003, 05:00 PM
As for "zippering", that's possibly what he did with the three rounds that connected? If the sequence went foot-leg-chest...?
I just figured that since the perp was kicking at the door repeatedly, that might have brought the leg and foot high enough to be hit.

Standing Wolf
September 18, 2003, 07:36 PM
All my center fire guns are always loaded at all times, and always have been and always will be: some criminals are insane, too.

WAGCEVP
September 18, 2003, 07:38 PM
a convicted killer walking the streets......... jee and they wander why crime is so bad? Insted of blaming lifeless inanimate objects, maybe , just maybe the anti self defense crowd should consider blaming the bad guys and punish them accordingly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

an unloaded shot gun? Hey it's good for something :)
Maybe He shoulda had a loaded shot gun in the first place !


--------------------------------------------------------------------
(NV) Invader shot by resident had served time for murder 09-17-03
Date: Sep 18, 2003 4:48 AM
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/2003/sep/17/091710048
.html
September 17, 2003 at 9:39:27 PDT
Gardnerville man described intrusion as "horror movie"
ASSOCIATED PRESS

GARDNERVILLE, Nev. (AP) - A Gardnerville man who shot and killed a
convicted killer who forced his way into his home said the late-night
intrusion was like a horror movie.

In newly released police reports, Charles
Cryderman told investigators that Walter
Hetrick, who spent nearly 20 years in and out of California psychiatric
hospitals, continued crawling down a hallway toward his children's
bedroom after being shot three times, the Reno Gazette-Journal reported.

Cryderman, a Douglas County businessman, told investigators the incident
was like the movie "Friday the 13th" or "Jack Nicholson in 'The
Shining,'".

Cryderman, 52, said he was watching television around 11:30 p.m. Aug. 2
when Hetrick, whom he had never met, showed up at his door looking for a
woman named Stacy. Cryderman told him he had the wrong house.

According to the reports, The 6-1, 230-pound Hetrick became angry,
starting talking about rape and began pounding on the door.

As Cryderman got his Smith & Wesson .357 magnum revolver from a bedroom,
the noise at the front door stopped.

Then Hetrick began banging on a side door, saw Cryderman was armed and
yelled, "Put the gun down," the reports said.

Hetrick threw a brick against the door and kicked it open. Cryderman
fired, and the door slammed shut. Hetrick kicked the door open twice
more, and Cryderman fired one shot both times, the reports said.

The reports said Hetrick "finally lunged into the residence," and
Cryderman fired twice more, using up the five rounds in the six-shot
revolver.
As his wife and two children hid in a bathroom, Cryderman hit Hetrick
three times - in the upper torso, the thigh and in the foot.

But Hetrick, 40, still kept moving through the home, so Cryderman got
his unloaded shotgun that was still in a case and began beating him with
it, the report said.

Hetrick grabbed the shotgun at one point and the two struggled over it,
but Cryderman got it back and continued hitting him, even after the case
came open and the shotgun game apart, the reports said.

At one point the homeowner pleaded with Hetrick to "stay there," the
reports said.
Sheriff's deputies swarmed the home moments later. Hetrick, of Antioch,
Calif., was handcuffed and taken to a hospital where he died of a
severed artery from the gunshot wound to his thigh.

Investigators said Hetrick's mother and an aunt in Antioch showed
detectives seven bottles of prescription drugs that Hetrick had stopped
taking. His mother described him as dangerous to himself and others when
he wasn't taking medication.

Hetrick was found guilty in the shooting death of his best friend in
Antioch in October 1984 and sentenced the following March to 27 years to
life in prison, authorities said.

He initially was sentenced to Atascadero State Hospital but also spent
time at other state hospitals and was deemed insane under California
law.

Authorities said Hetrick had been arrested on drug charges as recently
as January but was released from state supervision in California about
three months before the Gardnerville break-in.

ShaiVong
September 18, 2003, 09:39 PM
All my center fire guns are always loaded at all times, and always have been and always will be: some criminals are insane, too.

I don't bother with the Enfield, but the AR15 sits in the corner with a 10 rnd BM mag in the well and the bolt locked back ready to be slapped into battery.

Sven
September 18, 2003, 09:53 PM
The reports said Hetrick "finally lunged into the residence," and
Cryderman fired twice more, using up the five rounds in the six-shot
revolver.

All I can say is that it is nice having 17+1 on tap with my Glock.

As his wife and two children hid in a bathroom, Cryderman hit
Hetrick three times - in the upper torso, the thigh and in the foot.

Also glad I'm getting some training and learning how to make each shot count.

pax
September 18, 2003, 10:11 PM
Duplicate threads merged.

pax

GSMD Fan
September 18, 2003, 10:58 PM
Well good guy wins, bad guy loses. Regardless of how he did it, he did it hats off to him with using what he had to protect his family.

I am suprised I have not seen the

"He should have had a (insert caliber of choice), nothing else works, that puny 357 Magnum is BS!"

or even better

"He should have been using (insert favorite ammo), everyone knows that crappy Hydra Shock has no effect on a person!"

or my personal favorite

"Why did he have a S&W revolver, a (insert favorite brand and model) would have stopped the bad guy at the door!"

You guys know the posts.
How come no one is ragging on a 357 Magnum?

Proabley because everyone realizes there are no magic tools only dedicated carpenters.

So all that caliber chatter is junk. Any service caliber 38 SPL or above will work with a dedciated carpenter.
:D

Hardtarget
September 18, 2003, 11:42 PM
I won't say one thing against this guy. He showed himself to be a MAN.
He "stood in the breach", fought for his family, killed the invader. I hope I can do as well if the need ever arises. God bless him.
Mark.

Quartus
September 18, 2003, 11:46 PM
there are no magic tools only dedicated carpenters.



THAT is a great line.

Covey Rise
September 18, 2003, 11:50 PM
The handgun is not a good choice for home defense because even a .357 mag (we hope he loaded it with .38's Fed Hydas for the love of magnum power) which is ballistically one of the top handgun stopping rounds available does not stop a BG consistently without hitting a nervous system area.

So now if your a feller who uses a handgun for primary home defense and you don't own a shotgun, I would hussle on down to the store and by a $200 pump 12 ga because on the streets the BG's can buy one for $100 and then come in your house and after you shoot him 5 times with your .357 mag, takes his sweet time lines up his sights real good and ok, you get the idea. :evil: :evil: :neener: :what: this is purely for amusement, ok! :D :D

Well anyway the lesson is keep the 12 loaded and handy.

brownie0486
September 19, 2003, 09:21 AM
You don't call 911 to protect you, what gave you that idea?

Brownie

Shooter 2.5
September 19, 2003, 10:12 AM
Keep the shotgun loaded and ready to fire.

Trying to chamber any gun under stress just before a gunfight is a bad idea.

Grey54956
September 19, 2003, 11:35 AM
There is no doubt that the shotgun is the better choice for home defense, but the guy did okay, and that's what really matters.

Personally, I keep my S&W 586 around for defense. I like the weapon, I practice with it regularily, and it's very reliable. Of course, I also back that up with a Hi-Cap Browning BDM. My place has pretty narrow hallways, and strange corners. The shotgun would be hard to wield in such confines.

And remember, its good to have an assortment of hand weapons at your disposal. Like the dual-purpose mag-lite/crack-your-skull-club. The Mag-Lite is still a very respectable tooth rattler. Also, it is nice to have a decent fighting knife at hand as well.

I also keep a nice little chunk of oak which resembles a heavy chair leg with a lanyard loop. I found it at my late uncle's house, where it had been placed in an easily accessible location. Whoa to the man on the receiving end of the chair leg...

Juat a note on the BDM: Browning made on of the best Hi-Cap 9mm pistols ever in the BDM. It's great. I have heard that some people have experienced problems with it, but mine has been very good to me. And, it handles so much nicer than the Glock. Not that I mean any offense to the Glock people...

foghornl
September 19, 2003, 03:43 PM
I think the homeowner did OK...little injury to self/loved ones, and "took out the trash". But I still prefer my 1911-A1 as 'first line of defense", backed up by the Maverick-Mossy 12-ga, then the Most Serious
Artillery...the US Rifle Cal .30 M-1

Like the dual-purpose mag-lite/crack-your-skull-club.
I have the 6 D-cell version, AKA 'The Whoop-@zz Light"

Pinned&Recessed
September 19, 2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by foghornl
I have the 6 D-cell version, AKA 'The Whoop-@zz Light"

I got one too!!! Whenever people see it, they damn near crap themselves and ask if I'm "compensating".:D :D :D

I've actually gotten so used to the thing's length that my "Gold-Standard" 3 D-cell Maglite looks tiny.

Nero Steptoe
September 19, 2003, 09:46 PM
I like the idea that alot of would-be intruders will possibly be detterred just by the sound of pumping the shotgun.

Yeah, that psyco (or some doped-up crackhead) probably would have retreated in horror at the sound of your cycling your shotgun's action! The time taken to chamber a round might well be the split second advantage that you'd need in the real world to save your life.

TheOtherOne
September 19, 2003, 10:28 PM
I agree in a situation like this it would of been best to have a loaded shotgun, but alot of times when you just here a noise downstairs like someone has broke in and you get up and pump the shotgun it might scare the average burglar off.

There's got to be some place between safely keeping a shotgun up on the top shelf and not worrying about uninformed guests picking it up out of curiousity and pulling the trigger.


I want less of a chance of a stupid neighbor blowing their head off so I'll take my chances that I'll have the second to chamber a shell if I really do need it.

Ryder
September 19, 2003, 10:36 PM
handcuffed and taken to a hospital where he died of a severed artery from the gunshot wound

Holy cow! The guy must have had enough blood in him to fill a 55gal drum if he was bleeding from a severed leg artery. A normal person would last maybe 20-30 seconds?

I'm 100% with Brownie on the headshot issue. I've an additional reason though. Less odds that a headshot will cause suffering. Can't recall any deaths I've caused which haunt me but sufferings do have a sort of unpleasant permanance in my memories.

This defender should have had a big knife or sword handy. He destroyed a perfectly good shotgun? Oh well, happy endings are what count. :)

Ryder
September 19, 2003, 11:08 PM
double post :banghead:

WonderNine
September 20, 2003, 12:33 AM
Of course, there is the question of whether or not Federal makes Hydra-Shoks in .357?

Yes, I used to buy the stuff all the time at the sporting goods store until I realized that just because it's the most expensive .357 ammo their doesn't mean it's the best.

I used to buy the 130gr. stuff. Advertised as 490 ft./lbs of energy on the side of the plastic 25 round box. Not super hot, but hotter than a Remington Golden Saber .357.

Personally I prefer the 125gr. Remington Golden Sabers though because of less noise and recoil, and they seem to have a track record of always expanding, unlike the Hydrashocks. They're loaded to about 400 ft./lbs which is the exact same as Remington's old "Medium Velocity" .357's.

The top .357 load for defense IMO is Fiocchi's hot 148gr. load.

Anyone else hear that Federal is discontinueing their Hydrashock ammo? Interesting....

WonderNine
September 20, 2003, 12:36 AM
I like the idea that alot of would-be intruders will possibly be detterred just by the sound of pumping the shotgun.

But don't bet on it.

Daedalus
September 20, 2003, 12:44 AM
There's got to be some place between safely keeping a shotgun up on the top shelf and not worrying about uninformed guests picking it up out of curiousity and pulling the trigger.

I put a post it on mine that says "I Am Loaded."

BluesBear
September 20, 2003, 01:18 AM
Rossi Coach Gun with 6 extra rounds in a buttcuff.

Totally safe until you cock the hammers and pull the trigger. And I can tell you from experience that the sight of BOTH of those big muzzles will make your average scumbag thing twice. Of course, if confronted with a psycho as described in the beginning of this thread, the double trigger, double barrel offers the fastest 2nd shot available.

riverdog
September 20, 2003, 01:24 AM
There's got to be some place between safely keeping a shotgun up on the top shelf and not worrying about uninformed guests picking it up out of curiousity and pulling the trigger. Guests should never know it's there. Keep the mag tube filled and rack it as you bring it into play. Cycling an 870 takes about a quarter sec and should eaily be completed before you are sure of your target.

Aikibiker
September 20, 2003, 03:54 AM
I don't have much experience with shotguns, so take this with a whole ton of salt.

I am not so sure it is wise to rely on being able to flip off the safety on a defensive shotgun while under the kind of stress one experiences during a home invasion. The gross body movement of pumping a shell into the chamber from a loaded magazine seems a safer bet to me. Of course I am making the assumption that you store your HD shotties with the safety on. This may not be the case.

But if you have the training and experience to make this work more power to you. If I ever keep a shotgun around for HD I will go for a loaded magazine/empty chamber. It is a better fit for me, and I have not run into a shotgun yet that had a safety that was easy for me to flip off as I was getting a grip on it. Once held firmly in the hand sure, while fumbling around trying to get a good grip on it and swing to bear on the threat? I don't want to be feeling around for a little piece of metal in an odd (to this non-shotgunner anyway) place.

My $.02 make what you will of it.

Or better yet try it out sometime. With your SG UNLOADED and on the other side of the room in whatever condition you normally store it, do 35-50 pushups (the point of the this is to get rubbery arms and fingers that don't do what they are told all the time) As soon as you finish your pushups RUN to you shotgun, grab it up, make it ready to fire, then aim and dryfire it. See if the way you normally store your gun works under these conditions. If it does, good keep it that way. If you find your self fumbling or having a hard time getting it to work, then maybe you need to reevaluate the way you do things.

********************
IMPORTANT: If you do what I described above make sure your gun is unloaded and always pointed in a safe direction. Perhaps use your TV as a backstop. They work really well for this and you probably watch to much TV anyways.

EVEN MORE IMPORTANT (from my point of view anyway): By reading this you agree not to hold me liable for any new holes that magically appear in yourself, your friends and family, or your property.
********************

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Jeff Timm
September 20, 2003, 06:35 AM
As I recall the average police gunfight back in the wheelgun days, officers fired six rounds for two hits.

This citizen fired five times for three hits.

Police: 33% hits
Citizen: 60% hits

"He'll do to ride the river."

Geoff
Who hopes, if, ghod forbid, he's in a similar position he does as well with the nine rounds in his .45. (8 in the mag, one in the chamber.)

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