My plan for a replacement to the NICS check


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Jdude
November 16, 2008, 01:23 AM
The NICS system, as you all know, requires a call in, time delay, and other things. It may even be unconstitutional.

I propose a simple system that can do away with it entirely and still have the same effect, but with instant purchase (cash and carry) and no registration (4473). This plan should also pass Constitutional muster.

ID is currently required to purchase a firearm.
What will change in my proposal is this:
For those INeligible to purchase a firearm, a small no gun sign (red gun facing right, circle with line) can be put on the back of the ID card.
For those eligible to buy a gun, a green gun facing left can be put there instead. The green gun will have no circle and will point in the other direction for the benefit of colorblind people. It would be printed on the ID along with all of that other extraneous information in the back.
NICS will be used for people bearing cards without either symbol. People will have an opportunity to get their IDs swapped out at the local DMV to get the little green gun. An ID with a hole punched in it will be assumed to be a no gun ID, just the same as it is ineligible for use as a drivers license.

The CCW in several states already works like this. The only difference is that there would be no 4473 at all.

The change on the cards should have a minimal funding impact, being just a graphic on the print file.The NICS should still be used for IDs that have no symbol

Checking for compliance can happen the same way it is checked for alcohol and tobacco, with stings and what not.

If an ID card has a hole punched in it, most places assume it to be invalid for driving and other things. It can also be assumed invalid for firearms purchase with a hole punched in it.

I would rather the whole system be done away with. That does not seem possible right now. So I am trying to put together an alternative system that will work as well but remove delays and registration, make compliance simple even for FTF transfers if the seller so choses, and will be politically viable.

Any ideas, thoughts, or general mockeries?

-Jdude

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jcjacobvt
November 16, 2008, 11:30 AM
Once NICS was started and accepted, it will not be removed or replaced. It would be nice to have 4473 elimitinated, but that also will never happen. Gun Laws like TAXES once in place will never be removed; and if you have been watching the 4473 forms will continue to be modified. The 4473 forms have been modified at lest a half a dozen times or so in the last few years. My personal beef is that we offer the 4473 in other then English, which should be the only version we should be using in America. If you cann't talk and write in English in the USA then you will really have problems with all other parts of living in America. Am I the only one who thinks this way?
:what: Yes, I am a white American.

Added below as new thought.

Kind of Blued
November 16, 2008, 11:50 AM
That sounds like a wonderful idea, except scratch the "ok" marking on the liscense. It should be assumed that every American can own a gun unless specifically prohibited.

It's logical, cheap, unobtrusive, and effective, therefore, it'll never work. Think of all of those poor government workers who would be out of a job or forced to do something important.

zoom6zoom
November 16, 2008, 11:55 AM
Drivers licenses are usually issued for five years or so. What happens when someone becomes an "ineligible person" in that time frame?

zminer
November 16, 2008, 12:08 PM
Drivers licenses are usually issued for five years or so. What happens when someone becomes an "ineligible person" in that time frame?

Exactly. Plus, living in a college town, you'll find plenty of people with fake IDs to get into bars. Who's to say that fake IDs to get firearms wouldn't start popping up?

It's not a bad idea, but it's a little too easy to get around it.

wacki
November 16, 2008, 12:12 PM
Drivers licenses are usually issued for five years or so. What happens when someone becomes an "ineligible person" in that time frame?

Cops have scanners that allow you to see if the license is still valid. Laser barcode reader, magnetic strips (think credit cards) and simply typing the number into an online website for easy checkup.

In all honesty we don't need another card. Current drivers licenses are fine. I just wish the government didn't keep track of what firearms I purchased.

Bubba613
November 16, 2008, 12:29 PM
If you cann't talk and write in English in the USA then you will really have problems with all other parts of living in America. Am I the only one who thinks this way?
Unfortunately no. I thought the right to keep and bear arms applied to everyone. That would include people who can't speak English but who are citizens anyway. Even non citizens.

As for the OP, the idea sucks for all the reasons mentioned. In addition the 4473 asks for a declaration on certain questions. There would be no way for a person to make those in the absence of a form.

The Bushmaster
November 16, 2008, 01:05 PM
The 2nd Amendment...The original CCW permit...And right to purchase a firearm...Good or bad.

Budda613...You are correct as long as the guest is here legally...

jcjacobvt
November 16, 2008, 01:07 PM
I just thought of another negative of your red no gun and green positive gun on your driver's license. If you are stopped for any reason
by Police on the road and you hand over your ID with a Green Gun on it the Officer will have an immediate excuse to ask to search your vechicle for firearms and ammo. This might be ok if you are in your own State, but trouble if traveling thru other States, say to an event that you are legal to both ends. I would not want to spend a day in court, because there was loose ammo under the seat from the last trip to the range. And do you think your trip to Canada would be faster or slower at the border with an extra Green Flag on your license; and being asked to please pull into the inspection area for a visit? Sorry but being from Vermont which I still consider a FREE State as far as firearm laws for the law-abiding citizens, the ID additional sounds great at first, but has a couple of drawn backs. How about just marking the Red Gun on people that can not own firearms and leaving the rest of us alone? Let the courts mark only the foreheads of the guilty ones; law-abiding citizens should be left out of the process.

Kind of Blued
November 16, 2008, 01:42 PM
If you are stopped for any reason
by Police on the road and you hand over your ID with a Green Gun on it the Officer will have an immediate excuse to ask to search your vechicle for firearms and ammo.

Uhh... not in the United States...

Majic
November 16, 2008, 01:50 PM
Wouldn't DMV have to run a check on you to know how to stamp your driver's license? Wouldn't you have to answer some questions for DMV's investigation? How do you propose to completely do away with a check system like you say?

unisonic12
November 16, 2008, 01:57 PM
...............

jcjacobvt
November 16, 2008, 02:00 PM
Quote:
If you are stopped for any reason
by Police on the road and you hand over your ID with a Green Gun on it the Officer will have an immediate excuse to ask to search your vechicle for firearms and ammo.

Uhh... not in the United States...

You wouldn't think so, but.....

No, just in States like CA, NY, NJ, MA, etc. I know I am missing States, maybe others can add their run-ins with an Officer that was not exactly the way it should have been. I do not speak from any situations that I have gone thru, but from a few stories that I have read here on other forums that I hope that myself and others would not have to endure. My only problem with the system as it is, is on 9/11/2001 afternoon with local Police looking for everything in site, my vehicle plates were run by an Officer watching an intersection and I found out that I am in their database as having firearms in my vehicle without them actually looking. I was montioring the local emergency frequecies like I always do since I was a Fire Fighter and dispatcher in my earlier years and never stopped my habits, and hear the call from PD dispatch. And it was not a problem at the time as I am a known FFL dealer to the older Officers for the last 30 years and assumed it was a newer Officer seeing something thru the deep tinted side windows like a grip hanging off the top gun rack.
Hind sight, is that if you are in their system once it is always in the system; even if you are one of the good guys which I hope they would consider me to be.

Thanks for the feedback.

Zoogster
November 16, 2008, 04:41 PM
The end result would be no different, and might actualy end up being worse.

At first it would be as you imagine it. Then antis would slowly pass legislation using the platform you gave them. A platform even more suited to state and local abuses. (perhaps with support of "pro-gun" groups that think the ideas also sound good.) That legislation would call for "at least some standards." (Anti's logic on) 'I mean it is after all a driver's license and you have standards for that, and what class vehicle people can drive on the license. So why not standards for firearms? Shouldn't people take a written test, and then a physical test as part of that license for something as serious as firearm ownership and use if they do just for vehicle use?


So that gets implemented.
Then antis decide Average Joes that pass the mere basics for that license shouldn't have handguns as they are more dangerous to society and need extra scrutiny, so a special symbol that says whether they are only cleared for longarms or handguns as well is needed.
Then another legislator a year or two later decides "Assault Weapons" need a special symbol too, and a seperate test. Someone cleared for just long arms needs additional scrutiny and testing for "Assault weapons."
Of course the definition of "Assault Weapon" changes, and new arms are regularly added, so perhaps just a "semi auto" license.

Over time the restrictions and requirements for those licenses increase. After every "gun tragedy" antis pass additional requirements and restrictions that add up.
Every year fewer and fewer people go through the insane process.
RKBA support dwindles, and antis face less opposition to increasing restrictions.

Also the precedent set by allowing government to pry so deeply in such systems makes people not think twice about things like registration and other forms of complacency in regards to safeguarding firearm rights, which can lead to thier downfall.

Eventualy you have a situation in a once proud firearm owning nation like the UK or Australia where the average person is appaled at even the suggestion of the idea that the average person should be able to just walk into a store and buy ____.

So eventualy the system you envisioned as being less intrusive actualy enabled your state and local governments to easily become more intrusive.

The bottom line is as long as people need to ask the government permission anytime they wish to excercise thier constitutional "right" abuses and problems will exist. Innocent people will get flagged as ineligable, and things that add people to the ineligable list will increase. Governments after all have never wanted the average person well armed throughout history. Unless there was an immediate threat of foreign invasion that outweighed the threat of domestic resistance from an armed populace. Otherwise Kings have only wanted the King's men armed.
Nothing has changed today, they just are not Kings and Royal Courts anymore.

zoom6zoom
November 16, 2008, 08:15 PM
Cops have scanners that allow you to see if the license is still valid.
So it's valid. You're not required to get a new license when there's an RO filed against you or if you've been convicted of a felony.

MIL-DOT
November 16, 2008, 08:24 PM
Cool plan, but why is the "green gun facing LEFT" ? Shouldn't the pro-gun icon be "leaning to the right" ? :D
( Apologies if that got too political ! :neener:)

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