[jedi]

Okay, I am preparing to save up for a rifle that will be my one and only for some time, and it will probably take me abou a year to save up for it. Question is do I go for the new Springfield M1 Garand or the M1A? Remember in California I am limited to the 10 round mags for the M1A..no prebans can be sold here.

[Devonai]

This is a slam-dunk answer. :D

M1 Garand advantages:

1. Rich in history.
2. Fast reloading/ dirt cheap clips
3. Offers slightly more power than the M1A when in .30-06 or .270.

M1A advantages:

1. Lighter than the M1 especially with a synthetic stock.
2. Easier to maintain and clean (no heavy grease required).
3. More accessories out there if you want to go Skunkabilly with it and get your ACOG, flashlight, tactical sling, et cetera.
4. .308 surp is less expensive than .30-06 surp (usually).
5. You may move out of Commifornia someday, then you get 20-round mags.

So, I'd say that if you want a classic rifle, go for the Garand, and if you want a tactical rifle, go for the M1A. Either one is more than enough for any role you might need it for (except SAW or GPMG ;) ).

[Jmurman]

the .223 and will go with the Garand.

[juicy]

.223?

what uses the .223?

garand is .30-06
and m1a is .308

[dave3006]

One thing to consider is that the M1A will have a 50% chance of being defective. Springfield supposedly has a good customer service group. However, they put out a lot of lemons.

Buy a CMP Garand. Send it to Dean's Gun Restorations. The whole thing will cost about $900. You will have a gun that is just as "tactical" as the M1A. Box mags are over rated. They cost big bucks, they are harder to carry than clips, and they are slower to load.

Check this one out:

http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3151

[Tamara]

Garand.

[ScottsGT]

I've got both. M1a never sees the light of day anymore. I think Devonai hit the nail on the head. especially the "rich in history" part. I pick up my Garand and think of all the GI's that helped defend MY freedom with this rifle. I just wish it could talk.
.30-06 is a bit higher in cost, so if you are going to do a LOT of shooting, ask Dean about getting it rebarreled for a .308. In my opinion, there are way too many GI guns still available thru the CMP to even think about an aftermarket gun.

[Swampy]

jedi,

Get the best of all worlds..... an M1 Garand in .308.

Buy a CMP Rack Grade SA M1 for $400 and have it re-barreled by Champions Choice with a Douglas Premium Grade .308 barrel. Total price, $220, and you get the old barrel back too....

Cheap ammo
Cheap clips
Faster reloads
Lower in prone

.... and OOHHHH, what a feel it gives you. :D

I own an M1-A. Like it a lot. About 3 years ago I bought my first Garand. I bet the M1-A has not been out of the vault more'n half a dozen times since then. I now own more Garands than my vault can hold. Can't get enough.....

Just my .02,
Swampy

Garands forever

[VG]

If the choice is only the new SA Garand or the M1A, M1A. The SA Garands are coming through with Lithgow receivers and Boyds stocks - not very appealing for the money.

If the choice is between a CMP Garand or one of the USGI rebuilt rifles from Orion 7, DGR, Garand Guy, or Fulton, vs an M1A, Garand.

Where budget is a concern, you'd be far, far ahead with a CMP Garand. Or an ex-CMP Garand - check out the selling forum at www.jouster.com for some very fair deals.

[Jmurman]

.223?

I was toying with the Ar clones for a while, but really like the power of the .06

I dont have the luxury of doing a CMP purchase. You see, here in MD I have tried to contact MANY different clubs...you have to belong to a club for CMP, that is if they will sell a veteran without being in a club. So, I will more than likely buy one through Gunbroker.com, maybe a new Springfield....any thoughts?

[cslinger]

Garand Collectors Association counts as belonging to a club. Dues are cheap, you get a pretty cool magazine/news letter and then all you have to do is meet the shooting requirement and you can do that anywhere. Take a vacation and go to a highpower range around you.

Chris

[Swampy]

jmurman wrote:

I dont have the luxury of doing a CMP purchase. You see, here in MD I have tried to contact MANY different clubs...you have to belong to a club for CMP, that is if they will sell a veteran without being in a club.


Sorry guy... but I don't get it???

If you are a veteran, all you have to do is JOIN a club. After that you don't have to do anything.

If none of the MD clubs are CMP affiliates, then join the GCA (Garand Collectors Assoc.). Cost is $20 a year and is full CMP affiliated.

After that, fill out the order forms, attach your DD-214, birth certificate, GCA membership card and you are home free.....

Best regards,
Swampy

[cslinger]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Most definitely go with the good ole' M1 Garand. The first time you hear that PING everything else just kind of goes away. It's like instant smile in a box, just add ammo. :D

Chris

[Jmurman]

I have tried to contact numerous clubs and cannot get anyone to return a phone call...pretty frustrating to say the least.

Now, the Garand Collectors Assoc that sounds good. I'll look up their web address and contact them. I have my DD214, but no Birth Cert...way to long ago!...I'll call CMP and see is any other doc are needed. Now, will I still have to go through a dealer with FFL?

[cslinger]

Well I have been out of MD for a while now but I still think you can have the Garand delivered to your door from CMP.

Chris

[Swampy]

jmurman wrote:

Now, will I still have to go through a dealer with FFL?

NO !!!

The papers you fill out when you send in your order are basically the same as the "yellows" you'd fill out at any gun-pawn shop. The CMP does a NICS check on you from their office.....

The CMP then delivers right to your door via Fed-X Overnight service.

Swampy

[Jmurman]

I went to the Grand Collectors site and will join up with them. I then went to the CMP site and must say that this is exactly what I am looking for.

Now, what is the real difference between the various grades and whats up with the Danish Garand?

I am not looking for a tack driver, this weapon will be my main rifle. So, I would imagine that 1.5 to 2" moa will be fine with me. After all, I can do some work to tighten the groups, right?

[Swampy]

jmurman wrote:

Now, what is the real difference between the various grades and whats up with the Danish Garand?

The difference between Service and Rack is EXACTLY what CMP says in the descriptions........

All grades are fully functional and servicable..... the differences being in the bore and the wood.

If you want to be assured of a good serviceable barrel with lots of life left in it, then go for the Service. IF you are thinking that you might want to do an immediate re-barrel to .308, then go for the Rack.

The Rack grade MAY come with a good barrel (i.e within Service grade spec), but then it has to be graded Rack for some other reason..... most likely less than desirable wood. In this case, $90 buys you a brand new set of Boyd's M1 wood.

The Danes are all WWII rifles that were re-arsenaled after the war, then loaned to Denmark in the early 50's. The Danes used them for 40 years, re-arsenaled them too a few times, then stored them for a while, then decided they did not need them anymore and returned to the US Army in the late 80's. CMP started selling them a couple years ago.

Expect a Dane return to be a WWII SA or Win receiver, early 50's SA replacement barrel, and a possible mish-mash of US, Danish, and Italian internal parts. Wood may still be US walnut or may be Euro beech (good solid wood, but uglier than Rosy O'Donnell on a bad day). Expect it to be completely covered either in a preservative grease or in good old fashoned tacky brown cosmoline. Cleaning one is a chore.... but worth it. Many of these are fresh from a rebuild, with brand new parkerizing on all metal.

The Dane and Iti parts are of excellent quality, just not US made, which matters to some folks. The Euro wood is homely, but solid. They are no longer offering them (sold out), but the Danish VAR barrels are PRIMO accurate tubes. I currently have several of these and the accuracy of a couple of them approaches Match quality.

also wrote:

I am not looking for a tack driver, this weapon will be my main rifle. So, I would imagine that 1.5 to 2" moa will be fine with me. After all, I can do some work to tighten the groups, right?

Uhhhh..... 1.5 to 2 MOA WOULD be considered a tack driver in an issue grade, off the rack, autoloading rifle. DON'T expect this...... You MIGHT get lucky and get one with accuracy at that level with decent handloads or Match grade ammo, but DON'T expect that.

The US Army's Arsenal accuracy spec for an issue rifle using issue grade ammo is 4.0 MOA or better at 100 yds. with 8 rounds (this was started IIRC during the 1930's with the M1, still in effect today with the M16). EXPECT a rifle that shoots anywhere from 2.5 to 3.5 MOA with GI M2 ball type ammo, a bit better with handloads or Match ammo.

As far as tightening the groups, yes, there is some work and "tweaks" that you can do, but short of tuning the rifle up to Match Grade specs, don't expect better than about 2 MOA even with good ammo and a relatively new barrel.

Best of luck with it.

Swampy

Garands forever

[NEtracker]

Jedi,
It's all been said by the others.
Get the CMP M1 Garand. I got my first M1 this past July, Service Grade '53 HRA. Now I am saving for the next M1, maybe a RG WRA? or SA? Well, the 3rd may be one of those odd lookin' Greek returns!:cool:

[RustyHammer]

Swampy is dead on .... GARAND!

www.odcmp.com

You may also want to check out www.battlerifles.com .... lots of good info on M1 Garands there.

My vote would be for a Garand in .308 ... and a truck. (Need a truck to haul all the ammo you're going to shoot!)

Lock and load,

Rusty

[ScottsGT]

My CMP RACK grade had a TE of 2 and a muzzle wear of 2.5 But the wood looked like an angry pack of beavers chewed on it for months. My plan was a rebarrel and new stock. Barrel was good, so I bought a Wenigs stock- MUCH better than a Boyds. Had it reparked by a local 'smith and I now have a nice "new" Garand for $700.

[RustyHammer]

Do you (anyone) have a website for Wenigs stocks?

[hillbilly]

M1A or Garand?

The answer is easy and obvious.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


hillbilly

[ScottsGT]

RustyHammer,
Unless you can fit a stock, buy it from Deans Gun Restorations. He sells the Wenigs fitted and finished for about $100 over Wenigs direct price. Well worth the cost. But I think the site is Wenig.com Try a google search if this does not work.

They can get tricky cutting away just the right ammount of wood from under the trigger assembly. Also has to be certain clearances in the front hand grip so it won't split if too tight. I think the same goes for the front of the trigger cut out too.

[cracked butt]

The only downside from getting a garand from CMP is the waiting time. I'm an instant gratification type of guy, so waiting 3 weeks to have a beautiful looking service grade HRA garand delivered to my door was almost too much to bear- but it was definately worth the wait. Get a Garand, you'll never regret it.

The other downside to the garand, is that you'l probably need to handload for it. I'm not sure what commercial ammo is usable in the garand and I'm not willing to experiment. Surplus ammo is fairly difficult to find, and isn't of the highest quality for the price you'll pay for it if you do find it. Standard fare hunting ammo in the garand is a serious no-no if you value your oprod.

[glockenstein]

I have one thing to say... Road Trip!!! Drive all the way to Camp Perry and you can pick it out your M1 for yourself. It'll be like a quest. With the money you save from buying the M1 you can buy lots of ammo (which you'll need):D

[Sven]

Get em both, while you can. And lots of them!

[SteelyDan]

Good info, Swampy.

[ScottsGT]

Cracked Butt,
There is a solution to the commercial ammo problem. There is an adjustable gas screw that you can use that solves the problem of over pressurizing the gas cylinder. It is that phillips head looking screw on the end of the gas chamber right below the barrel. I've also heard that if you shoot 150 commercial bullets you should be OK too. I think it is the heavier bullets that take longer to get out of the barrel is the problem.

[marvl]

I'll second dave3006's recommendation. Get a CMP Garand and send it to Dean. I had him do 2 Garands for me and was very pleased with his work and reasonable prices. My experience with SA has not been the most pleasant. YMMV.

Oh yeah, there is a special level in hell for those that convert Garands to .308. Do so at your own risk. :p

[Skunkabilly]

Springfield needs to take some of their great people in customer service and put them in charge of QC. They've treated me great every time I've talked to them (too many times :rolleyes: ) but my rifle should not have ever left the factory.

[Swampy]

marvl wrote:

Oh yeah, there is a special level in hell for those that convert Garands to .308. Do so at your own risk.

Does that include the entire collection of Small Arms Techies of the US Navy??? ;)

Garands forever,
Swampy

[Nightcrawler]

Does that include the entire collection of Small Arms Techies of the US Navy???

Espeically them.

[Andrew Wyatt]

The whole navy's going to hell anyway, though. :)

[Jmurman]

If you are a veteran, all you have to do is JOIN a club. After that you don't have to do anything.

I am sending my application to the Garand Collectors Assoc today. I spoke with CMP yesterday and they seem very friendly and helpful.

I guess that is all goes well, I should have my Garand by November or December.

[ScottsGT]

Maybe sooner...... Mine only took 4 weeks at most.

[VG]

The other downside to the garand, is that you'l probably need to handload for it. I'm not sure what commercial ammo is usable in the garand and I'm not willing to experiment. Surplus ammo is fairly difficult to find, and isn't of the highest quality for the price you'll pay for it if you do find it. Standard fare hunting ammo in the garand is a serious no-no if you value your oprod.

Federal American Eagle 30.06 is very similar to M2 Ball, and is well under $10 per box. It's boat-tailed, shoots well. I've purchased it from Natchez for as little as $6.40 per box, or $0.32 per round.

CMP also sells their own load of 30.06, amde by Federal (which chronos just like
the American Eagle, I'm told). But purchase quantities are greater, most people find a buddy or two to split an order.

PMC's "Bronze" line is also OK for Garands.

The Taiwanese surplus ammo is pretty cheap - some are selling ot for $89 for 400, shipping included. That's $0.23 per round, or about what the best deals for Lake City or the Danish ammo were, although more than milsurp 7.62.


Oh yeah, there is a special level in hell for those that convert Garands to .308. Do so at your own risk.

Whatever. What's the difference between replacing a shot-out barrel with a commercially made 30.06 barrel or a commercially made barrel shooting the ballistically identical replacement to the [hard to find milsurp] 30.06? You can't shoot in John C. Garand matches, but you can still shoot in Service Rifle, and I've seen good quality milsurp in case lots for $0.10 per round or less.

CMP now has a Less-Wood Rack Grade for $300. Great starting point for a .308 "shooter." Now, if I didn't have three cases of the Danish milsurp left.....

[Abominable No-Man]

I'm prejudiced.

M1A, hands-down, if you were asking me only, but the M1 has a lot of good points, too. I think the M1 is a little faster to reload, too, but I personaly prefer the M14. 7.62 mm/.308 is a little more versatile in my book, too- I love the .30-06 Remington 700 I own, but I prefer the '06 in a bolt action myself- but that's just me. My dad had an M1 in Vietnam (early days), but he was in the Navy and they rechambered their M1's to 7.62, also.

ANM

[VG]

This is about the military M14 and not the civilian M1A, but FWIW:

At the Infantry Forum (http://www.infantry.army.mil/infforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=424

There's the following comment about the M14:

"Most of the legend of the M14 seems to be based on National Match, M21, and other custom-tuned examples. Ironically, during its brief production run, the rack-grade M14 was considered to be inferior to the earlier M1 Garand in both design and workmanship. In March of 1962, Aberdeen's Development and Proof Services released "Report on Tests for Ad Hoc Committee on Accuracy and Testing of 7.62mm Ammunition and M14 Rifles". For the testing, twenty-one M14 rifles had been chosen at random from rifles already accepted for military issue. Three manufacturers (Springfield, Winchester, and H&R) were represented by seven new rifles apiece.

* All of the rifles from Winchester and H&R exhibited excessive headspace.

* All of the rifles had loose handguards.

* 95% of the rifles had loose stock bands.

* 90% of the rifles had loose gas cylinders.

* 75% of the rifles had misaligned op rods and gas pistons.

* 50% of the rifles had loose op rod guides.

* 50% of the rifles had op rods which rubbed the stock.

* Three rifles had barrels which exceeded the maximum bore dimensions.

* Only three rifles had an average bore diameter which fell below the accepted mean diameter.

* One rifle was found to have a broken safety while another had a misassembled safety spring.

* One rifle had a misassembled flash suppressor which was actually contacting bullets during live fire tests

A barrel from each manufacturer was sectioned for examination of the bore and chrome lining. The chrome lining was out of tolerance (uneven and on average too thin) in all three barrels. The H&R barrel also failed the surface-finish requirements.

During accuracy testing, the M14 rifles produced greater group dispersion and variation in the center of impact than the control rifles (two M1 Garands rechambered for 7.62x51mm along with two AR10). NATO testing was quoted indicating that the Canadian C1 (FN FAL) and German G3 were also less sensitive to variations within and among ammo lots.

Shutting off the gas port in the M14 rifles resulted in an average 20% reduction in extreme spread compared to those groups fired with the gas port open. This also reduced the variation in the center of impact. "

[Blain]

Here are the replies in defense of the M14 from a battlerifles thread.

go here for the link http://www.battlerifles.com/viewtopic.php?t=19094&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

please note that failure to go BANG was not listed as a problem.

Now here's the interesting thing. It took roughly 5 years during the initial tool up phase of the M14 to identify its deficiencies, correct them, and get the rifles already in the field up to the new spec. After that, it became the dependable, rugged, and heavy hitting rifle that so many veterans of the period long for. (from above, continued) Now, it's been rounghly 35 years since the M16 was adopted. It still has reliability problems under adverse conditions.

Any questions?

On a side note, I think if you check with ejclancy, you'll find that the M1 Garand had a similar tuning period as the M14. Yet nobody seems to want to say that the Garand was an inferior rifle.



Note that none of the items listed are DESIGN deficiencies.

If you read the production history of the M14 rifle, you'll see that the rifle, although accepted in 1957, wasn't really placed into serious production until 1961-62. The major bidders went super low to get the scarce military contracts, and provided the usual low-bidder quality to the military. There were less than 100,000 M14 rifles in existence when this test was performed. It took another year to get the production standards up to par, and the rifles in the field upgraded.

[repsychler]

How do folks typically fill the shooting requirement to get a CMP Garand? I'm not a vet and I don't belong to any local clubs, what's the most expedient way to do it?

[NEtracker]

Check with the CMP, they will accept an NRA course completion where there is a course of fire (like Basic Pistol for ex.).
Also, many clubs hold HP shooting events where you can go and pay a small fee to participate, then you can get your proof of marksmanship activity (signed target, certif, etc).

[repsychler]

Sweet...maybe they'll take my CCW class then. It had a shooting qualification and the instructor was NRA certified.

I'd love to find a local highpower match, but have been so far unable to.

[ScottsGT]

My CWP traning is what qualified me. It will work. I included a photocopy of my CWP, a copy of my certificate of completion and a photocopy of the SC law that states the shooting requirements.

[kentucky bucky]

1. No rifle feels better than the Garand against your shoulder or in your hands!
2. They also preserved our way of life. (with the help of a few million GI's)


3. Clip sings to you as it is ejected.


4. They're cool !

[NEtracker]

With all of the "pinging" (my M1) at the range yesterday, I was getting quite a few inquiries about the CMP and my HRA. :cool:
There was a full lineup sighting-in for hunting season, but no classics like the Garand, mostly shiny new rifles/shotguns.
I managed to get 2 MOA on my 4th target (200 yard reduced for 100).