"A brother is murdered..."


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Preacherman
September 18, 2003, 10:21 AM
I have confirmed the story below, which is circulating by e-mail. I received it via the API List.

Mr. Givens and Mr. Yeager are instructors at Rangemaster - if you want to read their bio's, see here (http://www.rangemaster.com/new2/about_your_instructor.htm).

Let this be a warning to all of us...

Any of you who have trained with me know that I stress the
importance of being armed, at all times. Perhaps this tragic story
will help you understand why.

- Tom Givens

A Brother is Murdered

One of our brothers, a student, is dead. We will call him Rob. Rob
was murdered September 13th, 2003 about five miles from my home.
While some details are sketchy we do know a few things at this
point. One of the things I know for sure is that Rob, who was a
Carry Permit holder, was shot to death, while unarmed, with his four-
year-old daughter standing near him.

We have had many students including men, women, police, military,
civilian, American, foreign and every nationality you can imagine. I
have had a school since 1996 and quite a few folks have one of my
certificates hanging on a wall or lining their birdcage. My students
are my extended family, and I tell them that, and they stay in my
home quite often. I get a constant flow of e-mails and phone calls
from them with a myriad of questions and comments about every
imaginable topic. My students are my brothers.

Rob was a "gun guy". He owned many guns, was a reloader, and has
some suppressors for several of his guns. He apparently shot often
although I had never met him before his class with me and hadn't
seen him since. We corresponded a few times via e-mail as he was
applying for his Carry Permit but that was it.

This incident apparently happened because the murderer, a 70-year-
old male, thought Rob had shot one of his dogs. This is a big deal
in the southern United States. Many people let dogs run wild. Some
are vicious, some tear up trash bags and some just walk aimlessly
about. The fact is that many dogs run wild and many people don't
like it. Did Rob shoot one of his dogs? Who knows?

The incident essentially occurred like this: Rob went out on the
lake with his daughter and two other adults, launching his boat from
a public ramp. The murderer apparently waited all day at the ramp
for Rob to return. The murderer approached, there was an altercation
of sorts, and he fired two rounds from a .44 Magnum Ruger Redhawk
and then walked in and did a contact shot to Rob's head.

Rob, and a friend, took a Tactical Pistol course from us about two
years ago. He took the course with a Stainless Para-Ordinance P-14.
He was about to apply for his Carry Permit and wanted to get some
training. I asked why he was shooting the P-14 instead of his "carry
gun". He said he was going to carry the P-14. I expressed my
opinions to him that not only are Para pistols too big for daily
carry they are not rugged enough. He was content with his decision.

Like with all of our classes we talked about and did a lot of
shooting. But our Tactical Pistol class goes into great details
about Mindset and Tactics as well. If you Alumni will dig up your
handout from my class you will see gunfight rule number one as
being "Bring a gun." Owning a gun doesn't make you safe. Guns are
not Talisman that will ward off evil spirits. To go about daily you
must have a gun on your person and a serious attitude that you will
be aware of what is going on in your environment.

As an Instructor I must, like all Instructors, unlock my students'
potential and in some cases even change the way they think. Many
times the change is profound, even life altering, for some students.
I have had students tell me after courses they have made serious
life changes like making their personal connection with God, making
a Will, buying life insurance and so on. They do this because I tell
them you should not be encumbered by these thoughts while fighting
for their life.

Firearms Instructors are not unlike motivational speakers. We must
motivate and elevate our students to do things they may never do
otherwise. One of them is getting them to actually carry their gun
everyday. I know that sounds weird because these are students in
firearms classes after all. It is true though that many shooters do
not carry a gun everyday. There are certainly reasons not too, but I
cannot think of one reason that is worth dieing over. Rob would have
been carrying illegally. Was that why he wasn't armed?

I know what the Warrior Spirit is. I know what people who have it
look like. I cannot give it to you, you cannot buy it, and without
it you are very likely to fail. Without it you are very likely to
think carrying your gun is a burden, will get you in trouble, or
won't be needed.

What good is a fireman without water? All of that knowledge and
skill goes to waste as the building burns in front of him. Guns are
like fire extinguishers. You hope you never need one, but when you
do you want the biggest damn fire extinguisher you can pick up.

I have lost sleep over this. I have cried over this. I have gotten
angry over this. How do I reach people? How do I motivate them
enough to save their own life? What can I do to unlock the Warrior
that is locked deeply inside every man?

A good man is dead.

Be alert. Be armed.


James Yeager

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TonyB
September 18, 2003, 03:31 PM
Truly sad...you never know where a threat will come from(70 yr old man),or when(hanging out w/ daughter).......carry always,be alert,pray.Alot of people say "that would never happen to me"......even the people it happens to..:(

Hutch
September 18, 2003, 03:36 PM
Sobering indeed. Lord, what a mess. That poor child...

hillbilly
September 18, 2003, 03:50 PM
A link for the actual news article

http://news.mywebpal.com/news_tool_v2.cfm?show=localnews&pnpID=319&NewsID=490756&CategoryID=8373&on=0




A Henry County man has been charged with the Saturday murder of a Jackson man at a Springville-area boat ramp.

The body of Ronald J. Walker, 39, was found at the Broadview Road ramp east of Springville by Deputy Billy Smith of the Henry County Sheriff’s Department. His accused killer, James D. Haynes, 72, of 88 Darrell Drive east of Springville, was arrested at his home for first-degree murder by investigator Gary Vandiver of the department’s Criminal Investigation Division early Sunday. According to the report, Walker was visiting the lake in the company of family members when the incident occurred.

Walker was backing a white Lincoln Navigator and boat trailer down the ramp around 7 p.m. when Haynes walked up to the driver’s side and began to confront him.

Witnesses said Haynes accused Walker of shooting his dog. Walker stepped out of the vehicle, and the two began what officers called “a verbal disagreement.”

Haynes then allegedly pulled out a gun, shooting Walker twice. After Walker collapsed on the ground, Haynes fired another round into the victim’s head.

“There were several witnesses, including his daughter and some other family members,” said Henry County Sheriff David Bumpus. The daughter is 4-1/2 years old, Bumpus said.

According to the report, other family members who witnessed the shooting were Walker’s sister and brother-in-law.

After the shooting, Haynes left the area, walking up a nearby hill. Officers located Haynes locked in his mobile home later Saturday night. An hour-long standoff ensued. Officers cut the power to the home. Director Damon Lowe later was able to talk Haynes out. Haynes laid a revolver on the ground prior to his arrest. Bumpus said Monday morning that the investigation into the murder is proceeding, with the help of investigators from the TBI and FBI.

“We do have a lot of hard evidence in this case that we’re just making sure that we proceed cautiously on, and we’re working closely with other agencies,” Bumpus said.

Bumpus said federal agents were called in because the crime occurred on a federal wildlife refuge.

“We’ve got a real good working relationship with the agents that were here the other night, and we’re moving ahead very carefully because of the sensitivity of this matter,” Bumpus said.

More information about the case may be released mid-week, Bumpus said. Haynes was held without bond. He was arraigned Tuesday in General Sessions Court in Paris.

(Used by permission of the Paris Post Intelligencer.)

Werewolf
September 18, 2003, 03:51 PM
The moral of the story which I've stressed to my wife and daughters over and over:

It's better to have one and not need it than to need it and not have it.

They still don't get it...

Betty
September 18, 2003, 03:58 PM
I keep sharing stories like that with my dad in hopes that he would be more diligent in carrying a gun at his hardware store. He'll tote his little Colt Gov't .380, but not while working. He still won't carry it chambered.

Shortly before we moved to TN, the previous owner of our hardware store was murdered in the basement.

Carry all the time.

TheeBadOne
September 18, 2003, 04:01 PM
A good point here is the killer's age. Older people are automatically assumed to be nice old grandparently types. If you read about someone getting into it with a "Senior Citizen" you automatically think "Jerk, picking on an old person". Well, here's the news flash, old people come in all shapes/sizes just like anyone else. Charles Manson will soon be a senior citizen, can he be described as "a harmless old man"? If the killer didn't have a gun but had started punching the victim and the victim protected himself by knocking the old man down he'd probably have been vilified in some paper "reporting" on the incident. Exercise caution with ALL people.
Prayers for his family and friends. :(

einnor1040
September 18, 2003, 04:36 PM
A sad story indeed.

Keith
September 18, 2003, 04:53 PM
I'm not defending the shooter, but here we see another case of somebody shooting another over a dog.
No doubt, the victim (if he indeed shot the dog) had been taught the "tacticality" of shooting canines, etc... S.O.P for every tactical/ninja training course out there. So, maybe he saw a loose dog and maybe the dog growled at somebody - whatever, the dog was shot.

And as has been seen many times before, shooting a mans dog is liable to draw gunfire, even long after the fact in this case.


Keith

pax
September 18, 2003, 05:01 PM
The lessons: Knowing how to shoot is not enough. Carry your gun.
Knowing how to shoot is not enough. Pay attention to your surroundings.
If someone is yelling at you and he reaches in his pocket or behind him, he's probably not going to pull out a bouquet of flowers for you. Get away.
If someone wants to yell at you, you don't have to get out of the car to let him do it. You could just drive away ...
Tragic, tragic story. I really feel for the man's little girl. :(

pax

blades67
September 18, 2003, 05:24 PM
The moral of the story which I've stressed to my wife and daughters over and over:

It's better to have one and not need it than to need it and not have it.

They still don't get it...



They get it, they just don't have the personal power to deal with it. The Warrior's Spirit, or the will to be ruthless in the face of a threat, isn't inside most people.

sm
September 18, 2003, 05:43 PM
Thoughts for the little girl whom witnessed, and the rest of the family as well. Tragic.

Reminder for us all to keep sharp and not be complacent. "Comforting not comfortable". Mindset, training , holster and belt more important than the brand name/money it cost/ tricked out uber blaster not carried...or afraid to carry.

Standing Wolf
September 18, 2003, 07:29 PM
The little girl is going to spend the rest of her life with the knowledge her father was murdered in cold blood over a dog.

That's more than enough reason always to pack iron.

FPrice
September 18, 2003, 07:47 PM
"* If someone is yelling at you and he reaches in his pocket or behind him, he's probably not going to pull out a bouquet of flowers for you. Get away."

I would suggest that at face-to-face argueing range this will most likely not save you. You are in the "kill zone" at that point. About the only logical choice then is to close to hand-to-hand combat. Running away from an angry man with a gun will most likely get you shot in the back.

What do others think?

justashooter
September 18, 2003, 08:05 PM
i agree 100%. if you are unarmed and another person draws a gun on you at contact range with malicious intent, you have no choice. you must counter with superior aggression and without hesitation. there is "no second place winner". no matter what, the prime directive is survival of self and progeny. everyone else is expendable.

what a horrible shame that men in our generation are largely trained to aversion to violence, even in the form of self defense.

never draw your gun unless you are prepared to discharge it, and never let another person in contact range bring their gun to bear. take it away from them with a violence that exceeds their own. people are not prepared to be resisted. aggressive resistance is the only path.

you must counter with superior aggression and without hesitation.

NewShooter78
September 18, 2003, 09:13 PM
All of this over a dog. That is a sad statement. I love my dog dearly, but to kill a man over it? I think that's way over the line of any shread of sense. Not only did a little girl see her father murdered, but so did the man's sister and brother-in-law. It leaves me spechless.

NIGHTWATCH
September 18, 2003, 11:54 PM
To have had a CCW permit, been trained, not have your gun and lose your life like a dog over a dog in front of your child? This is a nightmare. :(

twoblink
September 19, 2003, 02:13 AM
I hope the little girl doesn't grow up to be an anti..

I hope she grows up to become a posterchild for CCW..

Sad story :(

gunsmith
September 19, 2003, 04:19 AM
why was the FBI involved in the investigation???
I'll tell ya!
FEDERAL WILDLIFE REFUGE
it was FEDERAL OFFENSE to bring a gun there.
I hope the family can bring a lawsuit against the damm
bureaucrat who wrote that un Godly law.
the bureaucrats who kill us should be hung.
reminds me why I won't go to any national park!

Nero Steptoe
September 19, 2003, 10:54 AM
FEDERAL WILDLIFE REFUGE

Don't think you'd get too far suing; however, this is one of several instances where it's better to risk a Federal offense than to lose one's life.

AmericanFreeBird
September 19, 2003, 01:49 PM
That is just plain nuts, killing a human over a dog? Put sugar in his gas tank, spray out your thoughts on his lawn with bleach, or perhaps shoot his dog in retalitation but killing him? In front of his children? What sick in the head jerk does such a thing?

When the value of human life and dignity boils down to that of a dog it's time to always ALWAYS ALWAYS carry a gun, loaded and ready to rock.

My prayers and thoughts for the family of the victim.

I've been carrying most of the time since 9/11 but I've not carried all the time. I'll have to reconsider that and make sure I at least have a .25acp on me at all times.

Always carry.

Keith
September 19, 2003, 01:51 PM
I live on the edge of a Federal Wildlife Refuge and there is no prohibition against concealed carry.

Keith

Keith
September 19, 2003, 02:08 PM
Nope, it just ain't right to kill a man over a dog.

But it is a reality that certain actions are liable to trigger a violent response. Shooting a mans dog is one of them, calling his wife a name is another, striking his child a third...

I threw my comment in as another case where the shooting of a pet has resulted in gun play. It's become standard procedure among the "tactical" crowd to "shoot the dog" - you see this in LE raids and you see civilians aping the behavior after getting training from various "experts".

It's a bad, bad mistake! If you shoot the dog, expect a violent response. If you don't want a violent response, don't shoot the dog.

In this case we don't know if the guy really shot the dog, or if he did whether that action was justifiable. But a dog got shot and somebody ended up dead because of it.

I can't help wondering if the instructors at "Rangemaster" (where the dead man got training) have a "Shoot The Dog" policy among their bag of tricks... If so, it was bad advice.

The next time some tactical ninja instructor advises you to "shoot the dog", demand your money back because the guy is an idiot!

Keith

pax
September 19, 2003, 05:51 PM
Keith,

I've taken classes from ... (errr, counting on my fingers ... ummmm, yeah, okay) at least six different instructors -- some of them affiliated with my local school and some big name travelling trainers.

I have never heard advice to "just shoot the dog" from any of them.

Sure do hear it a lot online, though.

pax

Keith
September 19, 2003, 05:58 PM
Well, the ninja's are getting that "Shoot The Dog" advice from somewhere.

Keith

feedthehogs
September 19, 2003, 06:11 PM
From what I read, Ron may not have had his carry permit and even if he did some federal lands are restricted to carrying firearms onto.
He may have been just trying to keep from breaking the law.

Another case of useless firearms laws killing innocent law abiding individuals.

They still don't seem to realize that criminals don't obey the law, hence the word crimminal.

What is so freakin hard for these num nutted politicians to understand?

Better to break the law and live to tell about it.

gunsmith
September 19, 2003, 11:33 PM
I live on the edge of a Federal Wildlife Refuge and there is no prohibition against concealed carry. ....
Maybe where the big bears are sir,here in CA where mtn lions roam
ccw is illegal at most fed wildlife sanctuary/nat parks....
hasn't stopped any crime in those places...

BHPshooter
September 20, 2003, 01:19 PM
how very, very sad and sobering.

This is yet another one of those situations that send my mind reeling.

I certainly believe in being armed at all times (and I DO mean all times), but that is just such a hard proposition to make work in today's hoplophobic world. Certainly the repercussions of breaking laws relating to this will not leave you feeling all warm and fuzzy.

Why our society seems so intent to give baddies the tactical advantage, I'll never understand.

It seems we are at a point where we can either stand up for what we believe in, or we can add ourselves to the ranks of defenseless victims-in-waiting. What is one to do?

I know that a firearm isn't a magic charm that wards off evil spirits, It must be kept nearby, ready to rock at all times. But I am stuck. I can't carry legally for a little over a year. What am I supposed to do? I suppose my life is worthless for another 15 months.

...Wes...


P.S. The questions in this post are rhetorical. However, if you feel so inclined, I'd love your thoughts.

sturmruger
September 20, 2003, 10:34 PM
This story made me tear up. Seeing that big gun come up and point at his body must be have been a shock. It is too bad that he didn't think of something to save himself. I have a book on self defense. They say that if someone else has a gun you should get as close to them as possible. Try to lock the gun between you arm and body. He also could have grabbed the cylinder, then the trigger couldn't have been pulled.

We can all armchair quater back, but I am sure 90% of us would have reacted equally as poorly. This story really scares me. This is going to have me thinking for a long time.

P95Carry
September 20, 2003, 10:54 PM
This exemplifies the fact that ....... however much we might dismiss trivia ....... there can be someone - somewhere - who considers they bear a grudge .... this apart from the average BG situation.

All the more reason, with no paranoia, to carry at all times possible.

I work for self and at home and ..... apart from a courthouse ... am 24/7 carry. My wife finds it amusing tho she is well competent with a gun. My argument is, that a ''situation'' can appear from nowhere ... it is probably not even something the average guy would imagine as possible.

''Expect the unexpected'' ...... and ''never assume'' ..... rules I apply to riding a motor cycle but - equally applicable to carry and everyday life. Your own life is YOUR responsibility ....... keep that in mind.

This was a sad, sad, event.

Art Eatman
September 21, 2003, 11:28 AM
Never had a house burn down; never had a major car wreck. But I have insurance.

There is more to the concept of "insurance" than a piece of paper for which you pay so much money each month...

I took an unarmed self-defense course, years ago. There were repeat demonstrations of, and we practiced, disarming a person with a handgun. About the only "requirements" are that you be within some six to nine feet of the person, and that the handgun not be held down near the hip. The deal is predicated on that physiological time lag of 0.2 seconds between "seeing" and "responding".

Once up into their sixties, folks' brains can go "wonky". Alzheimer's, etc. You can't tell by casual looking. And if you're suddenly faced with deadly force on the part of some old geezer, you better respond "Hair, teeth and eyeballs", just as if he were younger and healthier. You can worry about the "woulda, coulda, shoulda" later on...

(The near-geezer),

Art

pax
September 21, 2003, 12:32 PM
I know that a firearm isn't a magic charm that wards off evil spirits, It must be kept nearby, ready to rock at all times. But I am stuck. I can't carry legally for a little over a year. What am I supposed to do? I suppose my life is worthless for another 15 months.
That's not a question anyone else can answer for you. You have to answer it yourself.

pax

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -- Robert A. Heinlein

gunsmith
January 26, 2004, 05:32 PM
I thought I might revive this thread.
Stay safe!

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