Saiga, ban state, HI Capacity magaizines, etc


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The Deer Hunter
November 17, 2008, 01:19 PM
Quick question: Isn't it illegal to use a magazine with more than 10 round capacity in a foreign manufacturee gun?

Not if he's made the gun 922r compliant.

Ok so I saw this post in a saiga .223 range report thread. Now I am trying to figure out what type of AK to get. I liked the Saiga, but according to the salesman at the gun shop I cannot legally put a high capacity magazine in a low capacity gun.

I live in Massachusetts, where the assault weapons ban held over. I am also considering converting it to a regular pistol grip stock.

If I get the required parts to make the firearm 922r compliant, can I legally use magazines larger than the stock 10 round magazine?

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The Deer Hunter
November 17, 2008, 01:23 PM
Ok well I should have read better. Since this thread is open tell me what the main differences between a Saiga and most AKs? I'm aware of the grip configuration and that stuff.

Anything I should make note of?

Hoppy590
November 17, 2008, 01:24 PM
If I get the required parts to make the firearm 922r compliant, can I legally use magazines larger than the stock 10 round magazine?
922 has to be satisfied to use hicaps regardless of MA's ridiculous laws.

in MA, you can convert a Saiga to AK format so long as you do not have the evil features listed in MGL 140 -121 ( which will just tell you to see the Fed 94 AWB).

at wich point you may use any standard preban AK mag.

or you may satisfy 922, and leave it in original hunting stock and use any preban AK mag

Hoppy590
November 17, 2008, 01:30 PM
for example, this is a Converted Saiga that would be legal in MA when used with Preban mags
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/beta/storeproduct433.aspx

since its a capable of accepting a detachable mag and only has 1 of the evil features


* Folding or telescoping stock,
* Pistol grip which protrudes conspicuously below the action of the gun,
* Bayonet mount,
* Flash suppressor or a threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor,
* sh suppressor, Grenade launcher.

Highland Ranger
November 17, 2008, 02:12 PM
More here: http://forum.saiga-12.com/

As I understand it, the Saiga is an AK, made by the original AK factory that has been modified so that it can be imported as a "sporter" rifle.

In order to use "hi capacity" mags in the shotgun (I believe defined as more than 5) or the rifles (10 or 8 for the 308) you need to convert the gun to being classified as US made which gets you around the federal 922r law.

The applicable parts count for a .223 rifle is 14 and you need to get it under 10. The mag counts as three so buy a "hi capacity" US MADE mag and then change the furniture to US made (front and buttstock) and you now have a US made gun with only 9 foreign parts so 922r doesn't apply.

I don't know anything about Mass laws, so you need to do some research there - for me in NJ we aren't allowed over 15 in anything so doing a conversion (swapping out the guts of the gun, some minor machining) gets me 5 more rounds that I can get just by changing the furniture and mag to US made.

I don't have any investment in AK mags or other gear so doesn't make sense for me.


Other differences:
- uses its own mags, can't use AK mags unless you convert; this seems to be a big reason for conversion in the free states
- has a different gas piston so front furniture is not interchangeable with AK's
- does not come with a pistol grip, one manufacturer makes a butt stock with an integrated pistol grip. If you want an AK style pistol grip you need to do a conversion

Lots more to read an a number of vendor sites with Saiga specific parts . . . it was originally considered a great value, accurate, AK reliability and not expensive. With the run on EBR's right now, not sure where it falls out, in fact might be tough to get one.

Enjoy . . . .

Hoppy590
November 17, 2008, 02:24 PM
The applicable parts count for a .223 rifle is 14 and you need to get it under 10. The mag counts as three so buy a "hi capacity" US MADE mag and then change the furniture to US made (front and buttstock) and you now have a US made gun with only 9 foreign parts so 922r doesn't apply.

in order for a hicap mag to be MA legal it must be preban ( made before 94) i think you may have a hard time finding any preban US Made mags. though one option is to take preban mags and replace floorplates and followers with US made parts for a count of 2 US parts toward 922. or if you do a full conversion, a stock and pg ( both cheap options worth a total of 2 US parts) along with the required trigger group ( Tapco G2 for 3 US parts) and with followers and floor plates you will be under 10parts


for anyone interested, heres the MA GL definition of "Assault Weapon"
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm
“Assault weapon”, shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as: (i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70); (iv) Colt AR-15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR and FNC; (vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9 and M-12; (vi) Steyr AUG; (vii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and (viii) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street Sweeper and Striker 12; provided, however, that the term assault weapon shall not include: (i) any of the weapons, or replicas or duplicates of such weapons, specified in appendix A to 18 U.S.C. section 922 as appearing in such appendix on September 13, 1994, as such weapons were manufactured on October 1, 1993; (ii) any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that has been rendered permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a semiautomatic assault weapon; (iv) any weapon that was manufactured prior to the year 1899; (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable assault weapon; (vi) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; or (vii) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.

im full of all kinds of info today!

Highland Ranger
November 17, 2008, 03:02 PM
So then he'd have to do a trigger conversion or replace the gas piston to get around it, and then buy an old AK mag.

Sounds like it's not worth the trouble.

So you guys can only buy 10 rounds period in anything?

Hoppy590
November 17, 2008, 03:08 PM
So you guys can only buy 10 rounds period in anything

new? yes 10 rounds.
preban. anything you want assuming you have a Hicap license

The Deer Hunter
November 17, 2008, 08:31 PM
So you guys can only buy 10 rounds period in anything?

Its honestly very stupid. The gun itself is considered a high capacity firearm because it comes standard with a 10 round magazine (10 or more rounds = high capacity), but you cannot use a 30 round magazine.


So If I get the rifle, convert it to a pistol grip version, installed a new trigger group, and a floor plate and follower in a pre ban hi capacity magazine with all US parts, it would satisfy the 922r complience? I guess that means you can only have 10 or less foreign made parts in your gun. How many parts does this thing have??

I am leaning to the Saiga right now because it is going for $450 as apposed to the already "evil" Yugoslavian AK for $680.

Hoppy590
November 17, 2008, 10:49 PM
ok an unconverted Saiga has 14 parts. you must remove 4 or exchange 4 for US made parts.

(1) Receiver
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks, trunnion
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods

(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings

(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears

(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstock
(16) Pistol grips

(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates



you must remove or replace 4 of these to make a stock Saiga 922 compliant

stock Saiga + US made Hammer, US made Piston, and MA legal preban surplus magazines with US made followers and floor plate installed.

you would be 922 compliant and MA compliant

Hoppy590
November 17, 2008, 10:55 PM
ok that was "leave the saiga stock" post. this is the convert the saiga post.

if you convert it, the saiga will have 15 of the parts ( Pistol grip is added)

ok now its MUCH easier to do. you need to replace 5 parts



3 US made parts= Stock, Pistol grip and handguard
+3 US made parts= Fire Control group ( hammer, disconnect, trigger)
--------------------------
6 US made parts

15-6= 9

Compliant.

so unless my maths wrong its all set then too

Hoppy590
November 17, 2008, 10:58 PM
he gun itself is considered a high capacity firearm because it comes standard with a 10 round magazine (10 or more rounds = high capacity), but you cannot use a 30 round magazine.

that is not MA law, that is fed law.

indoorsoccerfrea
November 17, 2008, 10:58 PM
question: not to hijack the thread, but if i make my own furniture (handguard and stock) does that count as us made

The Deer Hunter
November 17, 2008, 11:27 PM
question: not to hijack the thread, but if i make my own furniture (handguard and stock) does that count as us made

I cant imagine why it wouldn't be.

Hoppy590
November 17, 2008, 11:27 PM
question: not to hijack the thread, but if i make my own furniture (handguard and stock) does that count as us made

so long as your in the US, yes.

indoorsoccerfrea
November 17, 2008, 11:44 PM
and that would put me in compliance with 922? hypothetically speaking of course, if i were to get a 50 rd clip from preban times would that still be in compliance?

Hoppy590
November 18, 2008, 12:15 AM
and that would put me in compliance with 922? hypothetically speaking of course, if i were to get a 50 rd clip from preban times would that still be in compliance?

on a stock Saiga?

14
- 2 (stock & handguard)
-------
12 Foreign parts.

NOT 922 compliant.

you could make your own stock and handguards, but you still need 2 more US made parts. a US made magazine will work. the combination of stock, hand guard and US made magazine would make you 922 compliant

pay no attention to the preban part. thats MA specific.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=18530
You have a Saiga-7.62x39 and want to use high capacity magazines. Since high capacity magazines are considered “unsporting”, and would be in violation of 922. Your rifle with mag has 14 parts. Use U.S. made mags and one additional U.S. made part like a gas piston and you are good to go.

Prince Yamato
November 18, 2008, 01:29 AM
Once you get the Class A license, MA law is just like federal law under the old AWB. So, you can convert the Saiga to a "post ban" configuration.

Your options for pre-ban mags are unmarked Galil mags or orange AK-74 mags converted to take .223 by means of a new follower (alla the WASR-3). That's what was legal under the AWB. I believe only the Galil mags will fit in the .223 saiga though.

The Deer Hunter
November 18, 2008, 09:42 AM
The Saiga I'm looking at is in 7.62x39.

SSN Vet
November 18, 2008, 09:50 AM
Whenever I have a specific question about the firearms laws in my state, I call the state police.

They willl usually transfer my call to someone who really knows what the heck they're talking about (which I appreciate) and I've always received a straight, unambiguous answer.

Prince Yamato
November 18, 2008, 01:01 PM
The Saiga I'm looking at is in 7.62x39.

Oh, well, that's an easy one. It has no bayonet lug or threaded barrel anyway, so just make sure it has a fixed stock. All metal AK mags are basically pre-ban. All Chinese drums are pre-ban. There you go.

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