What is your opinion?


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Pheonix
September 18, 2003, 12:46 PM
Is an IWB holster with a tucked in shirt, grip sticking out, with no concealment garment consitered concealed? I am looking for opinions, and will not consiter it the LAW because I read it on the net. I live in a non CCW state, and in a debate a few months back it was said that CCW is unnecessary because opencarry is permitted and nobody does it. They then went on to say that nobody has been arrested for open carry :rolleyes: . It has had my mind spinning for months. What do you think.


If this should be in L&P feel free to move it. I just want opinions.

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TheeBadOne
September 18, 2003, 12:48 PM
Check your State law. Some state CCW laws are "Concealed Carry Laws", and some states have "Carry Law", ie: open or concealed. You need to check and see what your states law is. If state laws says open carry is fine you are ok (and as you said, don't take some internet "expert's" advice). As far as your IWB method: If open carry turns out to be ok remember how you are carrying. If you put on a jacket you are now "CCW" carrying, and thus illegal by your state's Open carry but not CCW laws.

All the best

Skunkabilly
September 18, 2003, 12:50 PM
Concealed means no one can see it, at least that's the way I understand it. Inside or outside or shoulder or ankle, doesn't really matter--dont let anyone see it unless they deserve to :p

Henry Bowman
September 18, 2003, 01:14 PM
Those outside of Ohio don't understand your question. As you know, Phoenix, the CCW law of Ohio is that it is forbidden. The law is silent on open carry, put those who wish to maintain the ban on CCW and to defend the constitutionality (of Ohio) of the law have argued that open carry is not forbidden.

We are left with no guidance as to what is "open enough" to be considered open carry. I have looked and have found no case law in Ohio addressing "open carry" in this way. We could look to the laws of other states that have expessly defined "open" and "concealed." That may be of some value, but a judge is not likely to be pursuaded by them. I say "pursuaded" because, if the judge wants to find you guilty, he can easily (and legally) ignore them. If he is predisposed to support you, he doesn't need to refer to the laws of other states.

That said*, I believe that to use uncovered IWB as an open carry method with the intent to avoid being accused of CCW is risky. If you are going to be the Ohio test case for "open carry," OWB would be much more defensible. If you're into risk taking, by all means "open" carry with uncovered IWB. That would give the rest of us the best legal issue analysis for a test case. That way the court could say you are OK becuase it wasn't completely concealed (as defined by the laws of other states) or you are guilty because you could have (should have) been more open and carried OWB (visable from 3 sides). Either way, the rest of us will then know.

*Trademark of Standing Wolf. I am a lawyer but I do not play one on the Internet.

TallPine
September 18, 2003, 01:24 PM
And I have always wondered how a full-flap holster is classified ... open or concealed ?

I know, it will vary from state to state.

Henry Bowman
September 18, 2003, 03:33 PM
We have some ohio LEO's on this board. I'd like to hear if they have an opinion on this.

Coronoch? Braindead?

Ala Dan
September 18, 2003, 04:04 PM
I'm not a Ohio LEO or an "expert" for that matter, but
in my way of thinking; concealed means "hidden
from view'.

But as a former Alabama LEO, I wouldn't have a problem
with a law abiding citizen carrying his/her weapon IWB
with the grip (or butt) showing. Certainly if NO threat
existed; then I don't see this as being an issue.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

J Miller
September 18, 2003, 04:13 PM
This doesn't apply to Ohio, but it is in the same subject.
In Arizona before the CCW laws were passed, a firearm carried open was legal if any part of the gun, or holster was visible and could be recognized as a gun or gun holster.
Therefore the open cary in a full flap holster was legal because the holster was a recognized gun holster.
I'm not sure if this has stayed the same since I left in 99, but I don't think it has changed.

greyhound
September 18, 2003, 04:50 PM
I certainly don't know the law either, but maybe since (thanks to the movies, not a familiarity with firearms) the average person can identify a gun by the exposed grips, might that be "open" as opposed to "concealed" carry?

Werewolf
September 18, 2003, 04:53 PM
In Oklahoma concealed means concealed - if you are a CCW holder and are carrying and someone notices it and reports you - odds are at best you will have your CCW suspended at worst you'll lose it.

If you're packing it better be in a way that no one can tell - at least in OK.

Standing Wolf
September 18, 2003, 08:42 PM
I'd have to figure if the stocks or grips are visible, along with any other part of the gun, it's clearly an openly carried gun. If I were going to carry openly, it'd be a .44 magnum in a hip holster, which is considerably more comfortable than a small gun in an inside the waist band holster.

Ohio... Well, Ohio obviously needs a shall issue law: that's all.

Pheonix
September 26, 2003, 10:55 AM
In case anybody is interested I found this:
"... to be charged with a concealed weapon"does not require that the weapon be completely hidden from view under all conceivable circumstances" McFinley vs. Bethesda Oak Hosp 79 Ohio App 3d613. In the 1st 8th and 4th districts you are not able to use, as defense, that some of the weapon is was visible. In state vs. Almalik the butt of the gun was showing but the gun was still considered concealed and in State vs. Pettit the weapon was visible to someone who was near enough.

The newest of these cases was in 1992. I was advised that the gun must be completely in the open, like in a gun rack!! I was also informed that an OWB may not be open enough if most of the weapon is covered by holster material (leather, nylon etc.)

I am going to carry openly!

I am willing to pay the fines for the misdemeanor charges! My wife and I both make good money.

I do not yet have all the information I need yet to start carrying. I still need to find out where it is specifically not allowed. I am not afraid to use myself as an example/ test case to see what is righ and what is wrong.

I think I am going crazy! Ohio Sucks!

RobW
September 26, 2003, 12:52 PM
Pheonix, have you tried www.packing.org ? Lots of information about carrying in every state.

tetleyb
September 26, 2003, 01:15 PM
Is it legal to carry a loaded firearm in public? (In Ohio).

Smurfslayer
September 26, 2003, 04:14 PM
Without addressing the issue of legality in Ohio, during the legal presentation from a POST LEO in an NRA PP class in VA, I asked the exact same question as you pose. Obviously, his answer is 1: limited to the confines of VA, 2: subject to case law in VA, 3: depends on the totality of the circumstance.

His answer was that as 18.2-308 considers concealed to mean "hidden from common observation, or disguised as to conceal the true nature of the weapon", and that since the item in question was visible from 3 sides - front, back & strong side, with no obvious attempt to conceal it, then by his judgment it was not concealed. This answer has been consistent, I asked it of a lawyer as well. However, note item 3 - the totality of the circumstances. An all black gun, in an all black kydex holster, on a black belt, w/ black jeans & a black tee shirt, and you are carrying exposed butt (of the gun, not yourself :p ) IWB - maybe that is concealed or disguised...

Our law - and culture - is different here, so take this with a grain of salt.
One other thing, it should also be possible to wear the IWB outside the pants, but inside the belt, effectively unconcealing it.

HTH

Smoke
September 26, 2003, 04:19 PM
In TX if a "reasonable" person can tell you are carrying, it's not concealed.

So if I can tell that you have a 380 in your pocket because the gun is outlined on your pants...then its not concealed. Even thought no part of the gun is actually visible.

Sucks, don't it?

tawakoni
September 26, 2003, 05:04 PM
Twenty-odd years ago I lived in Milwaukee, WI for a short time (22 months). Upon my arrival in that fine city, I visited the local Police Department regarding my long-standing habit of carrying a handgun. They confirmed my information that open-carry was legal in Wisconsin and concealed-carry was not. But they politely but firmly informed me that anyone carrying openly would be arrested and charged with Disorderly Conduct. Soooo, I didn't carry openly even though it was "legal" to do so. Remember, Disorderly Conduct is whatever the Police say it is.

I am SO glad to be in Texas.

Best.

tawakoni

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