H&K VS colt


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dunlop
November 17, 2008, 07:16 PM
sorry but i am a big H&K fan check out the vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwkHktkTxU&feature=related

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General Geoff
November 17, 2008, 07:29 PM
The fact that the guy was wearing a welder's mask when testing the AR, and not when he was testing the HK, leads me to think this test was somewhat rigged in HK's favour.

dunlop
November 17, 2008, 07:30 PM
i think it just shows good faith

woodfiend
November 17, 2008, 08:46 PM
Yeah, they have obviously done this before, no way the Germans would go without procedures. HK for life.

SirSavage
November 17, 2008, 08:55 PM
nice vid, could use a little german techno though

HorseSoldier
November 17, 2008, 10:22 PM
i think it just shows good faith

"Dieter, climb down in zee hole full of vasser. Zees is very unlikely to geblowen seine face off."

"Jawohl, Herr PR Director."

Hopefully guy there in the mud puddle had a pretty good health plan, too.

For the entertainment of the HK fan boys, I'd point out that the 416s that were issued to the team guys at my last unit had trouble doing 4 MOA with green tip ammo at 100 meters (and generally printed groups around twice as large as a stock M4A1 with Mk 262 as well, though the groups were smaller). It may shoot in a mud puddle, but may not shoot where you want it to . . .

marktx
November 17, 2008, 11:09 PM
From watching the video once it seems like they keep the barrel of the Colt tilted up a good bit more when coming out of the water than with the H&K. The camera angles are different so it's hard to really be sure but it could be the critical difference between half a barrel full of water and just a wet barrel. There seems to be a lot of room for variation in this "test" and I wouldn't put much faith in it.

jackdanson
November 18, 2008, 12:12 AM
wow, a piston AR, that's original.

Don't forget HK hates you, good luck ever buying one of these. Only the gov'ment is responsible enough to use HK's.

stubbicatt
November 18, 2008, 08:16 AM
Perhaps it is a solution in search of an issue?

Although I've heard really good things about the HK STANAG magazines.

HorseSoldier
November 18, 2008, 03:31 PM
Although I've heard really good things about the HK STANAG magazines.

They're heavier than USGI magazines, longer/won't fit in all mag pouches out there, and (strangely enough, being steel versus lighter aluminum) are actually easier for Joe to deadline and break by being overly vigorous when loading with stripper clips and the issue speed loader that comes in 5.56mm bandoliers.

The anti-tilt followers are good, I guess, as long as you get the 2nd generation ones. The first generation anti-tilt followers were known to lock up and, well, tilt, due to the wrong coating (or may have been no coating) on the follower.

After testing both out, I ended up preferring P-Mags to my issue HK mags.

Gunnerpalace
November 18, 2008, 08:27 PM
Don't forget HK hates you

More like the Fed's do import laws people.

gvnwst
November 18, 2008, 08:32 PM
Dieter, climb down in zee hole full of vasser

Um, it's "wasser".

:D:D:D:D:D

HOLY DIVER
November 18, 2008, 08:37 PM
anyone notoice the water coming out of the butt of the hk? a stock colt does not have a hole drilled back the to lett the water "releave its self" does a stock hk have a hole back there?

HorseSoldier
November 19, 2008, 12:00 AM
Um, it's "wasser".

I was trying for phonetic German accent, more than good German (not that I could do much justice to good German -- took years of it back in high school and college, but my recollection is dangerously close to non-existent these days).

jackdanson
November 19, 2008, 03:13 AM
More like the Fed's do import laws people.

Touche'.

They still don't seem to be enthusiatic about getting there products released to the general public. They could (relatively) easily set up a U.S. based company to produce their firearms, thereby bypassing U.S. import laws.. and I can almost guarantee they would be profitable.

And to everyone else trying to figure out "why it works". It is piston based, the water draining is largely irrelevant!!! Think AK not AR.

dunlop
November 19, 2008, 06:38 PM
want to know y its the best???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZpZryZEiY4

HorseSoldier
November 19, 2008, 06:45 PM
Like I said, the piston makes for better reliability. But in my real world, non-video game console experience with them, they have accuracy issues.

I would note that the HK 416 printed better group sizes in the Army's dust test than the ODAs in my unit that had them were getting. May have just been bad QC on early production runs of the 416, or may be a problem they have the short barrel models. Regardless, the real weapons did not quite measure up to the hype on the Discovery Channel informercial.

dunlop
November 19, 2008, 07:36 PM
how big of accuracy issues? i plan to use it for tactical purposes

Gunnerpalace
November 19, 2008, 08:25 PM
They could (relatively) easily set up a U.S. based company to produce their firearms

I don't want to veer but I have to address this,

With the people coming into office would you invest several million $ doing that?

how big of accuracy issues?

From what I heard (know somebody know somebody take as you will) it has relatively poor accuracy, not mini-14 bad, but worse than the AR.

vanfunk
November 20, 2008, 05:39 AM
i plan to use it for tactical purposes

From what source are you planning on buying one?

vanfunk

Medusa
November 20, 2008, 06:24 AM
Somehow the OPs post here and in other threads scream "armchair commando". Anybody else has same feeling?

IdahoLT1
November 20, 2008, 03:17 PM
Isnt that test done by HK as well?

Either way, the 416 is very rare here and ive seen price tags ~$4200. I think ill stick with my Bushmaster and just avoiding shooting it with water in the barrel.

Highland Ranger
November 20, 2008, 03:46 PM
I counted a 3 sec drain for the HK and a 1 sec for the AR with the barrel tilted back.

Seems a bit biased.

I'd like to see them add a $350 Saiga to the test group as well.

dunlop
November 20, 2008, 03:56 PM
threw a department for law enforcement, or i know someone that can buy one, or already does have one

it sucks because my girlfriends dad just married into a family that owns the right to colt, and they are *******s.

jackdanson
November 20, 2008, 04:18 PM
With the people coming into office would you invest several million $ doing that?

No, but in the last 20+ years they have made hardly any attempt to cater to civilian buyers. FN and SIG both produce "evil" rifles and sell them domestically. The attempts made by HK are always watered down politically-correct versions of their over-rated firearms. I realize that a large portion of this may be because of imort laws, but they seem to make no attempt to make products available to civilians.

Gunnerpalace
November 20, 2008, 05:24 PM
but they seem to make no attempt to make products available to civilians.

That true, still not gonna happen anymore, we'll be in for a challenge keeping ours

threw a department for law enforcement, or i know someone that can buy one, or already does have one

I have no idea what that meant but I am guessing you are asking about the Colt 6290, LEO one are most likely Full auto and unattainable, You can get 6920's through dealers but expect to pay 1500+ right now,

Same with the 416 as far as I have seen all the 416 uppers are 10 1/2 in and SBR so that would require all the NFA festivities, and the lowers are FA so no go there,

Unless you are a LEO in which case I would ask your supervisor.

woodfiend
November 20, 2008, 05:40 PM
"May have just been bad QC on early production runs of the 416, or may be a problem they have the short barrel models."


I was gonna ask, what barrel length were you guys using? HK knows what they are doing, and I'm not saying that you are not truthful at all. I just know that a piston wouldn't make it any more innaccurate.

jackdanson
November 20, 2008, 11:15 PM
I have no idea what that meant but I am guessing you are asking about the Colt 6290, LEO one are most likely Full auto and unattainable, You can get 6920's through dealers but expect to pay 1500+ right now,

Same with the 416 as far as I have seen all the 416 uppers are 10 1/2 in and SBR so that would require all the NFA festivities, and the lowers are FA so no go there,

Unless you are a LEO in which case I would ask your supervisor.

+1 on that. I'd suggest a sig 556. It's a similar rifle, but much easier to get your hands on.

I just know that a piston wouldn't make it any more innaccurate.

1st, a piston can in fact make it more innaccurate. More vibrations/moving parts can easily cause a rifle to be slightly more inaccurate. That is one reason why the AR platform, in general, is more accurate than most other semi-autos.

2nd The piston isn't neccessarily the reason it is more inaccurate. HK may have other issues, but I've never heard of any.

3rd I've never shot one, so I really can't comment on it's accuracy.

Kino74
November 20, 2008, 11:26 PM
For the entertainment of the HK fan boys, I'd point out that the 416s that were issued to the team guys at my last unit had trouble doing 4 MOA with green tip ammo at 100 meters (and generally printed groups around twice as large as a stock M4A1 with Mk 262 as well, though the groups were smaller). It may shoot in a mud puddle, but may not shoot where you want it to . . .

Dang. Sounds like a couple of my AKs can run with a HK416 in the accuracy department. 4 MOA? :what:

dunlop
May 1, 2009, 09:56 PM
I got a chance on it .... its 2200 arg thats alot :uhoh:

Is this really worth it? i was expecting like 1600 tops :(

Maverick223
May 2, 2009, 01:00 AM
Any1 notice that they (the 416) and its twin the 417 (in 7.62 NATO) is going to b produced in the US? And it'll be civy legal to boot...now as for price I have no doubt it'll be cheap, but I think the accuracy and dependability will be there. From my experience HK has produced some outstanding firearms, and I have a tough time believing that 4MOA could be the norm, my HK USP .45 is better than that. ;)

sarduy
May 2, 2009, 01:58 AM
The fact that the guy was wearing a welder's mask when testing the AR, and not when he was testing the HK, leads me to think this test was somewhat rigged in HK's favour.

yeah lets see a Saiga vs 416 test ;)

ScareyH22A
May 2, 2009, 02:03 AM
Can't wait for the HK MS556... damn, I live in CA, I forgot.

Gunnerpalace
May 2, 2009, 10:41 AM
got a chance on it .... its 2200 arg thats alot

If you are about to pay that for a 6920....dont. I have seen them around for 1800

HKGuns
May 2, 2009, 10:42 AM
Yeah right, HK is known around the world for producing rifles and pistols that aren't accurate and are unreliable.... Sarcasm mode off.

mgregg85
May 2, 2009, 01:26 PM
Well H&K certainly makes the most overrated guns in the world.

An open letter to the gun community from HK’s marketing department: In a world of compromises, some people put the bullets in the magazine backwards…But it doesn’t matter, because our gun is on the cover of the Rainbow Six video games. Look how cool that SEAL coming out of the water looks… If you buy a $2,000 SOCOM, you will be that cool of an operator too. And chicks will dig you.
At HK, we stuck a piston on an AR15, just like a bunch of other companies have done, dating back to about 1969. However ours is better, because we refuse to sell it to civilians. Because you suck, and we hate you.
Our XM8 is the greatest rifle ever developed. It may melt, and it doesn’t fit any accessories known to man, but that is your fault. If you were a real operator, you would love it. Once again, look at Rainbow Six, that G36 sure is cool isn’t it? Yeah, you know you want one.And by the way, check out our new HK45. We decided that humans don’t need to release the magazine with their thumbs. If you were a really manly teutonic operator, you would be able to reach the controls. Plus we’ve fired 100,000,000 rounds through one with zero malfunctions, and that was while it was buried in a lake of molten lava, on the moon. If you don’t believe us, it is because you aren’t a real operator.
By the way, our cheap, mass-produced, stamped sheet metal guns like the G3 and MP5 are the bestest things ever, and totally worth asinine scalpers prices, but note that cheap, mass-produced, stamped sheet metal guns from other countries are commie garbage. Not that it matters, because you’re civilians, so we won’t sell them to you anyway. Because you suck, and we hate you, but we know you’ll be back. We can beat you down like a trailer park wife, but you’ll come back, you always do.
Buy our stuff.
Sincerely
HK Marketing DepartmentHK. Because you suck. And we hate you.
http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

I'd rather have an AR-180.

Gunnerpalace
May 2, 2009, 01:29 PM
Overrated,yes....but quality.

dunlop
May 2, 2009, 04:38 PM
I gave up on it ....
kind of a far cry but I will post up when i get my hk usp elite ... Thanks for all the info guys

HKGuns
May 2, 2009, 04:55 PM
Over rated by who??

The HK MP5 is the world standard for sub machine guns.
The HK PSG1 is the world standard sniper rifle.

You know, I'm not even going to bother arguing with someone who obviously knows very little.

The HK45 has the same mag release location as every other HK pistol line since the USP's were introduced. (They have a really hard time selling those now don't they.) -Right. If you'd ever shot one you'd know it is a very ergonomic magazine release system AND it is ambidextrous.

How many firearms companies are producing an AR with a gas piston today? Does Colt? They're the government contracted M4 provider aren't they? Don't even start to try to argue that the gas piston is no better than the standard direct system. Less heat and gunk ALWAYS results in better reliability and performance.

You're nothing but a troll and I'm sorry I reacted.

FlyinBryan
May 2, 2009, 05:12 PM
those kinds of tests mean absolutlely nothing.

to tell if a rifle is a worthy fighting weapon, all that needs be in order is the color of the extractor spring insert, and have the proper finish under the front sight base.

FlyinBryan
May 2, 2009, 05:13 PM
oh ya, and have an "f" stamped on the front sight somewhere

Gunnerpalace
May 2, 2009, 06:06 PM
Batch pressure test?

And gas key staking,

jerkface11
May 2, 2009, 06:24 PM
The HK MP5 is the world standard for sub machine guns.
The HK PSG1 is the world standard sniper rifle.

It must be nice living in 1987.

HorseSoldier
May 3, 2009, 12:27 AM
The MP5 is nice enough -- control layout isn't ideal, but it is definitely a huge improvement over open bolt stuff like the Uzi . . . for whatever that matters.

As far as the PSG-1 goes -- I've played with one we had in the arms room for familiarization training. The SR-25s our team guys had shot rings around them . . .

basicblur
May 3, 2009, 12:43 AM
If you are about to pay that for a 6920....dont. I have seen them around for 1800

I paid $1240 for mine even after the panic buying set in-was at the same shop a few days ago and they have 'em for $1400.

Forgot to add-don't forget...
HK (says?)-Because you suck and we hate you! (http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/)

ugaarguy
May 3, 2009, 12:54 AM
anyone notoice the water coming out of the butt of the hk? a stock colt does not have a hole drilled back the to lett the water "releave its self" does a stock hk have a hole back there?
Actually stock Colts DO have a hole on the buffer tube (carbines) / buttstock screw (rifle stocks, in which case the screw goes into the buffer tube). Companies that build AR-15s to lower standards don't always do this. Multiply the cost of drilling the hole, running the drill press, the and the man hours spent doing it across thousands of rifles built; and the cost cutting adds up. You have pointed out yet another flaw in the test though.

Jeff White
May 3, 2009, 01:15 AM
The HK MP5 is the world standard for sub machine guns.

The ergonomics on the MP5 are so bad that many users have to modify them or do dangerous things like run with the safety off. And submachine guns are last generations weapons and being relegated to the museums.

The HK PSG1 is the world standard sniper rifle.

By who's standards? Who has adopted it?

You know, I'm not even going to bother arguing with someone who obviously knows very little.

I know Horsesoldier's background. You I know nothing about. If you are going to say that someone who is currently a member of the US Army Special Forces knows very little, I think that you should post your personal bonafides here so that we all my judge what special background you have that gives you your expert knowledge. In fact you may notice that Moderator tag under my name, that means that your continued participation here is dependent upon your establishing your personal credentials. If you don't wish to post them publically, you may send them to me in a PM. But you will send them.

There are many members here at THR who actually have or currently do use these weapons for a living, and anyone calling someone out had better be able to back up his words.

AgentAdam
May 3, 2009, 04:40 AM
That test seemed biased and unfair to me also. The standard AR didn't have to hole in to buffer tube to alleviate the pressurized water and he held it at a higher angle and didn't allow hardly as much time for it to drain before firing. The H&K416 barrel is Forged to prevent the barrel itself from exploding like a peeled banana but that would not prevent the receiver from splitting any more or less.

HKGuns
May 3, 2009, 10:34 AM
Moderator,

If you'd read the thread, you'd see my response was directed toward mgregg85 and the thread over on AR15.com, not your buddy, whom you appear very quick to defend.

Actually, to be completely correct, most of the response was toward whomever wrote that quote posted by mgregg85.

This site has known nothing about me since 2004 and it will remain that way. If there is suddenly a requirement to send "credentials" (whatever that means) to participate here. -Count me out.:)

jerkface11
May 3, 2009, 11:09 AM
Wow you gotta love HK fan boys.

Jeff White
May 3, 2009, 11:13 AM
HKGuns, when you claim an expert opinion, don't be surprised if someone asks you to back it up someday. That's real life, which is a goal we strive for here.

balletto
May 3, 2009, 11:23 AM
Was that the theme from Das Boot in the video?

Awesomeness :D

jerkface11
May 3, 2009, 11:30 AM
I also fail to see what's so great about an "AR" that uses nonstandard takedown pin placement and won't take P-Mags.

Gunnerpalace
May 3, 2009, 12:07 PM
control layout isn't ideal

It's simpler than the AK system (if we are talking the flip safety selector)

Maverick223
May 3, 2009, 02:21 PM
It's simpler than the AK system (if we are talking the flip safety selector)
I most certainly agree, and find the AK to be horrible, I keep mine off for storage (and the bolt open so that it is as easy as charging the handle). I rather like the HK switch location, it fits me well.

AgentAdam
May 3, 2009, 03:39 PM
Ok, I have officially debunked this rigged test. First off he lowered the H&K into the water with the bolt forward and a round chambered thus sealing off the the gas port and the chambered cartridge sealed that end of the barrel thus not allowing as much water to enter. Notice how little the amount of bubbles come up when he lowers the H&K. It's like when you put your finger over the top or a drinking straw and push it into a drink. The straw(barrel) doesn't take on any water.

Then when he lowers the standard AR into the water he has the bolt in the hold open featuring as its going into the water allowing the entire action,receiver,barrel,gas tube,buffer,ect to be totally flooded. No wonder he wore Ballistic helmet and shield. Notice allot more air bubbles cumming up and he then chambers a round under water.

On the shooting under water test i kept pausing it and you can notice the flash hider is literally poking out of the water the last second right as he fires. Also doing so causes the weapon not to cycle and he must recharge the weapon to continue firing above water. I seriously doubt the effectiveness of a .223 after passing threw only 1" off water,much less a barrel full.

Just do as they recommend and pull the bolt back a little to allow the barrel to drain when cumming out of the water, or just leave the bolt locked back so it drains instantly when you come out and you can instantly hit the bolt release being ready to fire faster than recharging the weapon like he had to.

The only thing I'll give the H&K is it can fire underwater, with the flash suppressor sticking out,because its piston driven and not gas impinged. For all we know the standard AR could do that if he didn't try to blow it up on the first shot.

Maverick223
May 3, 2009, 05:14 PM
I will give you that it is rigged, with the timing of the test, the angle of the bbl (both while draining and under water), and with the plugged/non-existant hole in the AR; however I will say that HK makes some fine guns, and IMHO the best auto pistol made. It does however still abide by the laws of physics, making it a bit less that what they portray in their hoax...I mean advertisement.

SlamFire1
May 3, 2009, 05:34 PM
I think both carbines were under the water long enough to be thoroughly filled with water.

I am not familiar with the HK416, but some in this post have said it is a AR with a gas piston.

For me the question is, why didnít both rifles blow?

If you have a column of water in the barrel, that ought to raise pressures at lot.

jackdanson
May 3, 2009, 06:41 PM
It's operated by a piston, that's why it doesn't blow. Something kalishkinov came up with 60 years ago.

The HK MP5 is the world standard for sub machine guns.

blehk :scrutiny:

"The best submachine gun" is like winning the special olympics. Screw accuracy, I want to throw a bunch of pistol caliber lead whilst wearing black kevlar and a plastic helmet. There is a reason all sorts of police departments are moving away from the mp5/ump and to AR platforms.

The HK PSG1 is the world standard sniper rifle

I'll put my $1200 (and ugly) FNAR in a competition against any psg1, I guarantee you it is more accurate... I'd put money on it if you can find someone with a psg1. Heck, a $500 Savage can outshoot the psg1.

Zombie thread, someone shoot it.

Jeff White
May 3, 2009, 08:34 PM
For me the question is, why didnít both rifles blow?

Because HK deliberately rigged the test by either replacing the buffer tube from the M4 with one that didn't have a drain hole in it or plugging the drain hole in the existing buffer tube. Plug the drain hole in the buffer tube of the 416 and it will also blow up when fired full of water, you can't compress a liquid.

Maverick223
May 3, 2009, 08:39 PM
you can't compress a liquid.
Sure you can...so long as the liquid isn't water. :neener:

dunlop
December 23, 2009, 06:29 PM
what good is MOA if your rifle just blew up!!


here is another one for u guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsgstaO18jY

Avenger29
December 23, 2009, 06:32 PM
Why, sweet zombie jesus, did you dig up a 6 month old thread and why did you dig it up again after 7 more months? GIVE IT A REST!

Dude, Future Weapons has never "reviewed" a weapon they didn't like.

Stop it with the HK-416 pimping. It's bull. It's an AR-15 with a piston. NOTHING SPECIAL.

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