New York Gun Laws FELONY!


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Sharpshooter223
November 17, 2008, 11:58 PM
Ok soo me and my friend "J" are from Tx, been around firearms all of our lives and both joined the military at the same time. I went to Ky and he went to NY. Anyways, I'm out now, he was stopped lossed to do a 2nd tour of Iraq which he had no fuss about, went back, and just came back a couple weeks ago. When people get back from a war what do they all want? Guns! His parents brought up 2 of his pistols to show his friends. Well they left and J left the pistols at his friends house OFF of the military post. He had them there for 4 days when some idiot drove by, and fired a shot near the area he had his pistols at. The swat team raided the house and took possession of the pistols threatening the friend with felony charges on discharging a firearm in city limits. They took J in and let him go 5 hours later, come to find out it wasn't either of his pistols that were fired so basically they did an illegal search&seizure, and also made 2 wrongful arrests. But, they are now bringing charges up on J saying that since he doesn't have the permit for the firearms then he will be charged with a felony. Is anyone familiar with the gun laws of NY? I read that for pistols you MUST have a permit but is there like a 10 day grace period to get them registered? He had them there 4 days before they took them. Idk, I think it's pretty pathetic that a man joined the military, was put in a ****hole like NY, became a sgt, did his 2nd stoplossed tour of Iraq without bitching, and then brought a couple pistols up to NY to show his friends the pro's and con's and is being brought up on felony charges, maybe even a dishonorable discharge out of the military. if anyone knows anything hit me up.

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45Badger
November 18, 2008, 12:12 AM
He's probably screwed, unless he can get the whole thing tossed on illegal seach.

DUMB to bring pistols into NYS. There is no 10 day grace period.

RP88
November 18, 2008, 12:14 AM
no NY permit in NY = unlawful possession in NY

since he's in the military and probably has a good record, he can probably get the felonies dropped and just not see the guns ever again.

But yea, you need to always check the laws of places you are going to and through to keep that kind of stuff from screwing you.

crushbup
November 18, 2008, 12:15 AM
A good lawyer will be able to determine if it was an unlawful search and seizure. I will not pass judgment on it because I do not have all the facts and I am not a lawyer. However, if it was an unlawful search, he should be able to get the charges dropped quickly.

Short version:
Tell him to talk to a good lawyer.

crazy-mp
November 18, 2008, 12:18 AM
I don’t know if they still have this law but at one time NY had one on the books that said if you were in possession of more than 4 firearms you could be charged with a felony. NY is close to the east cost version of California. So they probably wanted your friend to have the permit BEFORE getting the gun, or guns, which ever the case may be, also hope your friend did not have any hi-cap mags they will hang him on that.

***I am not a lawyer, I cant lie that well:evil:***

RPCVYemen
November 18, 2008, 12:29 AM
He needs a lawyer fast.

I would have expected that the reputation of NY would have been warning enough - but I guess not everyone know the rep.

Mike

Sharpshooter223
November 18, 2008, 12:31 AM
Yea I read that like any mag over 5 rounds is considered Hi cap in NY? He had like some 10 and 12 round mags. Prolly screwed, sad sad story of liberal gun control bull****. A good person that has been a law abiding citizen all his life and has a clean military background can go to **** when brought up on felony charges for showing his friends what kind of pistols they should buy.

Dougelas
November 18, 2008, 12:42 AM
That sucks, sure hope he gets out of it. I'd say his best bet is Unlawful Search and Seizure though. Just a guess. Plus he's in the military so that should go a long way in helping, hopefully.

Nooblet
November 18, 2008, 12:56 AM
Wait. I don't get it. Someone fired shots near his house and they just happened to raid his house, which contained firearms?

I mean, a coincidence or what?

JoeSlomo
November 18, 2008, 01:15 AM
So let me get this right...

If I, a veteran of 3 foreign wars, and currently an active duty military member with not even a speeding ticket, venture into NY state territory with personal property that I legally own in my current residence to shoot an IDPA or USPSA match, I am in the same class as a rapist?


O.K., just making sure.

Speedo66
November 18, 2008, 01:21 AM
"was put in a ****hole like NY"

So every person on this board from NY lives in a "****hole"?

That's High Road?

Sorry about your friend, but if he was stationed in NY he knew the laws and chose to break them.

Was he legal having personnal weapons on the army base?

Tom488
November 18, 2008, 01:29 AM
enture into NY state territory with personal property that I legally own in my current residence to shoot an IDPA or USPSA match, I am in the same class as a rapist?
Yes - unless the match is sanctioned by the NRA (that's actual NY law - see here: http://www.pinecitysportsmen.com/NYSpenallaw.gif)

Other than that one exception, yes, if you are in possession of a pistol within the state of New York, and you don't have a NYS pistol permit, you're in serious trouble.

Rifleman 173
November 18, 2008, 01:30 AM
Just tell him to go to the JAG for a lawyer. JAG = Judge Advocate General. Most states have legal exclusions for military personnel who are passing through or live in states like New York. The cops probably are not aware of that little issue but a JAG lawyer will know it by heart. Let the JAG lawyer get his guns back for him or else let the JAG file a complaint with the U.S. Attorney's Office to get the guns back.

M203Sniper
November 18, 2008, 01:36 AM
+1

Go see the JAG immediately. You'll get the best advise there.

Tyris
November 18, 2008, 01:46 AM
So every person on this board from NY lives in a "****hole"?


I would say that is a fair assessment. Warrantless search from the local gestapo seem to qualify for *****hole status.

-T

Prince Yamato
November 18, 2008, 02:03 AM
Yea I read that like any mag over 5 rounds is considered Hi cap in NY? He had like some 10 and 12 round mags.

10 rounds. It's a mirror of the old federal AWB. If he possessed post 1994 hicaps, he's looking at a double felony.

You need a permit to possess a handgun in NYS. A permit to possess is also a permit to carry unless restricted. You have to be two steps from insanity to bring a pistol into NYS without the proper permit. Unless you have a fetish for felonies, keep your unlicensed pistols out of NYS.

zminer
November 18, 2008, 02:31 AM
I'm not a lawyer, but - as others have stated - in New York State you have to have a New York State pistol license in order to purchase, possess, or carry a handgun/pistol concealed. And, yes, any magazines over 10 rounds are illegal as well, unless they were manufactured prior to the enactment of New York State's assault weapons ban. Check out the gun laws for yourself (http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/).

It appears the only legal protections for military personnel are for people actively engaged in military service, with weapons issued for that purpose:

* * * * *

Article S 265.20 Exemptions.

a. Sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05, 265.10, 265.11, 265.12, 265.13, 265.15 and 270.05 shall not apply to:
...
"(d) Persons in the military or other service of the United States, in pursuit of official duty or when duly authorized by federal law, regulation or order to possess the same."

* * * * *

I think you're right that you have a certain number of days after you move to NYS in order to give your handguns to the police for safekeeping, until you can get licensed, but I can't find it right off. That would probably be a hard thing to claim if the guns were at some other location than where the owner was living. Also, that time starts ticking as soon as you move here, and it's a pretty short period of time. I suggest you read these primers, from the Orange County Shooters, and/or call the State Police, or your local sheriff for information:

http://www.ocshooters.com/Hand/plnys.htm

http://www.ocshooters.com/Gen/gun-buy-back-program.html

* * * * *

I would say that is a fair assessment. Warrantless search from the local gestapo seem to qualify for *****hole status.

So, because I live in a state where a police agency made certain actions (which, I might add, we don't even know the truth of), I am somehow a bad person? So, does that make every citizen of Louisiana the same kind of person because of gun confiscations after Hurricane Katrina? Not High Road, my friend.

garymc
November 18, 2008, 04:23 AM
Just because NY state's laws factually qualify it as a ****hole, doesn't mean people living there are bad people. And the statement made by the op didn't say they were bad people.

Tyris
November 18, 2008, 06:03 AM
So, because I live in a state where a police agency made certain actions (which, I might add, we don't even know the truth of), I am somehow a bad person? So, does that make every citizen of Louisiana the same kind of person because of gun confiscations after Hurricane Katrina? Not High Road, my friend.

You may or may not be a bad person, I don't know you well enough to make that call. Living in NY just means you live in a ****hole. That is all.

-T

rhweb32
November 18, 2008, 06:09 AM
I lived in NY for a little while. I carried my pistol all the time. Didn't have a single problem what-so-ever. Your friend should own up to his mistake, and take whatever he has coming.

Kragax
November 18, 2008, 06:32 AM
It depends on where in NYS you are. My county is gun friendly to the limits of the law. If this happened here his service record would go a long way and he may get away with a kick in the ass. The problem is if convicted of illegally having a handgun, it is a mandatory 1 year prison sentence. The 10 day thing is BS as far as I know. It takes up to six months to get your permit and you can't remove your legally paid for property from the store until you provide the FFL holder with a chit showing its on your permit. All handguns have to be listed on your permit. Long guns they dont care about. When I retire Im moving back to PA (15 miles away). I have a carry permit there as well and a lot less BS. Good luck to your friend. I hope the extend an american hero some slack.

Speedo66
November 18, 2008, 08:26 AM
Somehow his friend has guns illegally in NY, not his fault.

Somehow his friend leaves those guns outside his possession, not his fault.

Somehow his friends friend has a firearms discharge near his house, not his fault.

Somehow the police may have knowledge about this house and raid it, not his fault.

But the only reason for all this is because every NYer lives in a "****hole"?

batjka
November 18, 2008, 08:59 AM
There's no way this should be a felony charge. Possession of a handgun in a place of residence is a misdemeanor. There was a case recently in NYC where 2 handguns were confiscated from a hot dog vendor's house. Someone ratted him out. He was charged with a misdemeanor. He also went to fight the charges citing Heller. Don't know how it ended.

Now if you're caught CARRYING a handgun in the street, then and only then it's a felony.

I'm not a lawyer, but your friend definitely should get one. He will clear it all up.

Harve Curry
November 18, 2008, 08:59 AM
He needs a lawyer fast, he should not be speaking to anyone but his lawyer. JAG, contacting NRA as well. With the current beneficial Supreme Court ruling in Heller v DC maybe some of the NY laws can get turned upside down. It's long overdue.

rhoggman
November 18, 2008, 09:24 AM
I seriously think that since the right to keep and bear arms is protected by the Constitution, the Federal Government, not the States should make the gun laws.

I just do not think it is right for someone to be able to lose their right to bear arms over something that is perfectly legal in most other States.

The definition of "Assualt Weapons" is ludicrous. It seems to me that from the top down it is impossible to have a "well armed militia" when the people cannot readily obtain weaponry on par with what is available to the military.

I'm not sure at all how the Police entered this young man's dwelling, but there seems to be a new trend in Law Enforcement. This trend is not to announce their intention to enter the domicile. Basically they wait until it is dark, and they they just bust down the doors. This policy is actually backfiring because people are shooting "COPS". Of coarse anyone would be scared out of their mind with no "POLICE" declaration, and even then anyone could bust down your doors wearing a POLICE hat, and screaming "Police, get on the floor". IMO sometimes display of potential force is much more powerful than use of force. The former puts people in a mentally inferioir position. In the good old days if they wanted to breech your door they used a megaphone first. No criminal would ever use a megaphone before breaking in to kill you or steal your goods.

Phil DeGraves
November 18, 2008, 10:00 AM
Massachusetts is similar. No Mass permit = felony. So if a NH resident steps over the border with a NH licensed CC and gets caught by the police - Felony.

Here there was a NH citizen who worked at a Mall near the border of Mass. Employee parking was 100 yards into Mass. His car was broken into. Police responded, found the Glock 19 that he had a NH pistol permit for, confiscated it and charged him with multiple felonies. After a very expensive court battle, he successfully got the case dropped though they did not return his firearm.
Welcome to the world of "reasonable restrictions."

cassandrasdaddy
November 18, 2008, 10:52 AM
In the good old days if they wanted to breech your door they used a megaphone first.


really? i never saw that where did you?

Just One Shot
November 18, 2008, 10:57 AM
If the scenario you laid out is actually what happened, in addition to seeking legal representation, I would also recomend that your friend (or yourself) seek assistance from the NRA. This is just the kind of thing they should be chomping at the bit to address.

I mean, an American citizen joins the military to defend the rights of all American's, then he himself is denied the very rights he fought to defend!

Who knows? This could be the case that could lead to the over turn of those ridiculous laws that are in affect in the great state of NY.

damien
November 18, 2008, 11:07 AM
REMEMBER: Heller was won because of sympathetic defendants, just like this guy. Ask the state court to incorporate Heller. If they don't, take it to federal court and ask them to incorporate Heller. This is a GREAT opportunity to use Heller to modify state laws! Someone let the NRA know about this case, if they have a contact.

RPCVYemen
November 18, 2008, 11:17 AM
The other lesson is that unless you intend to be a test case, it's worthwhile to know the gun laws anyplace to which or through which you plan to transport a weapon.

Mike

X-Rap
November 18, 2008, 11:31 AM
My guess is he lived on base but his buddy didn't. Its common for a guy to live off base and store guns for his buddys, maybe not the smartest thing but the red tape and time hassle of the Arms Room is sorta prohibitive and you are subject to pretty strong penalty if you come in late after shooting or hunting and can't get it put back. When did this happen?
When my son moved up there I asked him about what he was taking and if it was legal there.
I knew handguns were out but checked on long guns and saw the AW restrictions and he had one. Well he got it home safely, but do advise people to actually check the various state laws espeially in those known to be less gun friendly.
My kid was lucky but I still wished I would have checked before he left.

http://www.drum.army.mil/sites/about/security.asp
Pretty much says it all.
Jag may not even help since it is a blatent violation.

zminer
November 18, 2008, 01:35 PM
The 10 day thing is BS as far as I know.

It's not BS. When you move to NY State, you have a short amount of time to surrender to the police (or an FFL, I believe) any handguns that you own until such time as you obtain a license. The reason they have the law in place is for people who move to NY State from other areas where handguns are legal (say, Vermont, which is right next door and has very few restrictions). It wouldn't really be in New York State's interest to put troopers at the border and wait for moving vans to cross the state line, pull them over, and arrest them if they're transporting any handguns. And, yeah, getting a license takes a while, but I think the police are required by law to hold the guns for you for at least two years, so you should have plenty of time to become legal. (The law is also in place for people who inherit legally owned handguns, or in other similar situations. Check here (http://www.ocshooters.com/Hand/plnys.htm#I%20HAVE%20A%20GUN%20BUT%20NO%20LICENSE) for more info.) With all the strange laws, Orange County Shooters recommends that you simply leave your handguns with someone out of state, rather than bring them with you and surrender them. Probably not a bad idea.

The key to this, though, is that you have to obey the laws. If these guns had been in a safe and the OP had a convincing story about how he was going to bring them to the police as soon as he had a chance, he had the licensing paperwork on hand, etc., he might have a better case. However, it sounds like he just put them at his buddy's house, which was obviously not a good idea. Hopefully a lawyer can help, but it would have been best if the law had been followed from the beginning, even if he didn't agree with the law.

It sucks, but it is required of us as responsible citizens to know the firearms laws of states that we live in, or travel through. I will never drive through Massachusetts with a firearm, because I know that they have some crazy laws, and there are rumblings that they will not honor the "peaceable journey" laws that most other states do. I don't want a hassle, or a felony conviction, so I avoid the issue by obeying the law.

DKSuddeth
November 18, 2008, 02:11 PM
sounds like a good time to get the permit scheme ruled unconstitutional for NYS.

zminer
November 18, 2008, 03:18 PM
sounds like a good time to get the permit scheme ruled unconstitutional for NYS

Unfortunately, there is no sign that this is going to happen. Even in the Heller case they ruled that as long as the process of licensing is not done in an "arbitrary and capricious" manner then it's legally allowable. If any part of NY's law were to be challenged, it would be the virtual ban on guns in NYC, and even that is probably not going anywhere.

I think our best shot at this would be to show how different the licensing procedure is in different counties in NY (and therefore "arbitrary" based on where your house happens to be). In some places you get your license back within weeks, but in others it can take months. In some counties you can be called before a judge who will interview you to decide whether to issue you a license, while in other counties it's basically a civil servant with a rubber stamp. But, that all probably falls under the legal umbrella of local control, and I don't think anyone wants to give that up.

Heavy Metal Hero
November 18, 2008, 03:30 PM
This story sounds fabricated. I don't understand how they just so happened to raid the house after your friend just so happen to leave guns there?

Why don't you tell us the real story?

Zoogster
November 18, 2008, 04:30 PM
This story sounds fabricated. I don't understand how they just so happened to raid the house after your friend just so happen to leave guns there?
Meaning you believe the guy fired the guns, and was subsequently arrested.
That may or may not be the case, and the benefit of the doubt is best given to the poster for the sake of polite highroad conversation.

It is entirely possible a shot was fired by someone resulting in a response, it is also just as likely a person with new firearms decided to fire a shot outside, whether safely into a backstop or into dirt, or dangerously into the air.
Either way many cities now have a sound positioning system that locates the general position of a discharged firearm. That alone, or that combined with a report from a neighbor could result in such actions.
So someone safely firing a round into the ground in thier backyard for example would immediately be known as the location.
Someone using fireworks or other loud noise makers would also trigger such a system.
In fact in a city it is an excellent way to frame a known gun owner on the 4th of July or New Years. An explosion near thier home can result in a police investigation, by police that already assume they are guilty.



it just encourages people to make illegal copies, putting (a bit stupid) law abiding citizens in tax a supported prison system.

You cannot put a "law abiding" person in prison for doing something "illegal" that they actualy did.

You are confusing "law abiding" with an otherwise good or unpredatory individual. They are far from the same thing. "Law abiding" is obeying the law, regardless if it is right or wrong.

There are people that will steal property and value legaly from others on a regular basis, within the law. From banking, loan sharks, towing rackets, lawyers who regularly work eminent domain cases etc
They are law abiding, and some actively work to ruin peoples' lives for personal gain.
I have met some people that are good at heart and would never victimize another person or thier property, support and take care of thier family, that occasionaly do something illegal that is relatively minor and victimizes nobody.
They are criminals who are not law abiding. No if ands or buts, they have chosen to not abide by the law.

Someone that has never harmed another person, or deprived anyone of property, on thier way to volunteer at thier local charity after choir practice lets out who willfully chooses to jaywalk across the street while knowing it is illegal is not a law abiding person.


So don't confuse your terms. A law abiding citizen cannot willfuly break the law and go to prison, or they would not be a law abiding citizen.

X-Rap
November 18, 2008, 10:14 PM
Check here and see if you can find any report of a similar situationhttp://wdt.net/ They cover all the news from around Fort Drum.
If a soldier got arrested for a gun charge you can bet its in there. Unfortunately I couldn't find a report that fit the OPs post.

Haze
November 18, 2008, 10:27 PM
I found this on the NYS Police website....

FAQs - Relocating to another state or county
Q - How does the law apply to licensed individuals from other states who move to New York and wish to posses their handguns here?
New York State currently has no reciprocal agreements with any other states and does not recognize any other state's licenses. It would be unlawful for an individual to move to New York State and possess handguns in the state without first being licensed by the county in which the individual will reside.

There are two options for individuals already in possession of handguns in their home state.

They must either leave the weapons in the possession of an individual in their home state who may lawfully possess them until such time as the owner can legally possess them in New York State, or
They may leave them in the possession of a licensed gun dealer in their home state who would be willing to hold them until that individual can lawfully possess them in New York State.
In either case, the weapons can only be lawfully brought into New York State via a licensed dealer in the home state shipping them to a licensed dealer in New York State from whom the owner may take possession.

Weapons personally brought into New York by the owner would result in forfeiture of the weapon and possible criminal charges brought against the owner.

Q - If a licensee was issued a renewable pistol permit and then relocates to a county where pistol permits are issued "good until revoked," does the pistol permit automatically become "good until revoked" upon transferring it to the new county?
No. While the Penal Law does provide for the transfer of licenses from one county to another, it does not permit the changing of the expiration date of the license when one has been assigned.

The license may be transferred and will remain in full effect until the expiration date has been reached. At that time the individual will become unlicensed, unless application has been made with the appropriate licensing authorities for a new "good until revoked" license.

Patriot Henry
November 18, 2008, 10:27 PM
So don't confuse your terms. A law abiding citizen cannot willfuly break the law and go to prison, or they would not be a law abiding citizen.

They can if they break an unlawful "law". Firearms are not a crime. Property is not a crime.

All law can be summarized in but two words: no stealing. It's exactly that simple.

Examine this case as reported based upon the natural law (or for the more devout, God's law, "Thou Shall Not Steal") and it is a simple matter to resolve who is breaking the law. One man stored his own firearms in a secure domicile. Another party broke and entered and stole that property and proceeded to falsely arrest him for his exercising his rights to own property and firearms. Governments love to declare citizens to be criminals and blame their victims for the real crimes perpetrated by the government. Once the people believe the government is the source and sole judge of what the law is then you can get away with any crime - if you control the government.

This is an example of a tyranny much worse than most suffered by the Americans before the Revolutionary War. It is an unacceptable violation of the purpose, principles, spirit, letter, and function of the law and we should not sanction it nor feed it nor grant it any power by assigning the powerful words of "the law" to such a wretched oppression of a human being.

zminer
November 18, 2008, 11:51 PM
They must either leave the weapons in the possession of an individual in their home state who may lawfully possess them until such time as the owner can legally possess them in New York State, or They may leave them in the possession of a licensed gun dealer in their home state who would be willing to hold them until that individual can lawfully possess them in New York State.
In either case, the weapons can only be lawfully brought into New York State via a licensed dealer in the home state shipping them to a licensed dealer in New York State from whom the owner may take possession. Weapons personally brought into New York by the owner would result in forfeiture of the weapon and possible criminal charges brought against the owner.

Good find. I have checked the State Police website before for info on licensing and found it less than helpful, so I am glad it had useful information this time. Guess I was wrong about bringing them into the state and then turning them in. I could have sworn that there was something on my pistol license paperwork about a grace period to tun in firearms, but obviously I must be wrong if the State Police say otherwise. I'll poke around and see if I can find the paperwork somewhere.

Then again, the wording says:

"Weapons personally brought into New York by the owner would result in forfeiture of the weapon and possible criminal charges brought against the owner"

This could be something that is totally up to the police officer who is at the desk when you come in to turn in a weapon.

secamp32
November 24, 2008, 05:32 PM
I think the grace period is for pistols that are already in NYS and the registered owner dies. The estate has I think 10 days to turn them in.

BTW I have lived in NY most of my life and it is a great place with great food and natural beauty. Unfortunately, its a political cesspool. Between the high taxes, the gun laws and the nanny statism after 45 years i can't wait to the hell out of here.

Sinixstar
November 24, 2008, 05:45 PM
Long story short - tell your friend to talk to a good lawyer, like, yesterday.

Overall - it sounds like there's more to this story then what you or your friend know. Cops don't just randomly raid houses full on like that. Were any other houses "raided"? Was anybody else rounded up outside of that house? Any other suspects? Any other guns confiscated?

He leaves unregistered guns from out of state (big no no #1) guns at his friends house (big no no #2) and a couple days later when he's not around, there just HAPPENS to be shots fired in the area, and the cops just HAPPEN to have enough reason to believe there's someone from that house involved in some way to barge in and start looking around.

Yea - to think there's NOT more to this story is naive to n'th degree.

vis-à-vis
November 24, 2008, 05:52 PM
Ok soo me and my friend "J" are from Tx, been around firearms all of our lives and both joined the military at the same time. I went to Ky and he went to NY. Anyways, I'm out now, he was stopped lossed to do a 2nd tour of Iraq which he had no fuss about, went back, and just came back a couple weeks ago. When people get back from a war what do they all want? Guns! His parents brought up 2 of his pistols to show his friends. Well they left and J left the pistols at his friends house OFF of the military post. He had them there for 4 days when some idiot drove by, and fired a shot near the area he had his pistols at. The swat team raided the house and took possession of the pistols threatening the friend with felony charges on discharging a firearm in city limits. They took J in and let him go 5 hours later, come to find out it wasn't either of his pistols that were fired so basically they did an illegal search&seizure, and also made 2 wrongful arrests. But, they are now bringing charges up on J saying that since he doesn't have the permit for the firearms then he will be charged with a felony. Is anyone familiar with the gun laws of NY? I read that for pistols you MUST have a permit but is there like a 10 day grace period to get them registered? He had them there 4 days before they took them. Idk, I think it's pretty pathetic that a man joined the military, was put in a ****hole like NY, became a sgt, did his 2nd stoplossed tour of Iraq without bitching, and then brought a couple pistols up to NY to show his friends the pro's and con's and is being brought up on felony charges, maybe even a dishonorable discharge out of the military. if anyone knows anything hit me up.

Maybe now he will wake up and realize that he's actually the one who needs to be defended from his own government and discover that he is but a pawn... PWNT!

Sinixstar
November 24, 2008, 06:10 PM
also - just a point of order to be made...
Just because the shots weren't fired from those pistols - has zero bearing on whether or not the search was legal. Did they have a warrant? Did they have probable cause to believe that someone in the house was involved? If so on either one - your "illegal search and seizure and two wrongful arrests" statement doesn't hold any water.

Illegal search and seizure would be if there was no shooting in the area, and they just randomly rolled up on this house and busted the door in for no reason, found guns - and made an arrest.
Wrongful arrest would be if they arrested the wrong person, KNOWING they were arresting the wrong person.

If they had reason enough to believe someone inside the house was involved to do a search, then when they find the guns - they would inherently have reason to believe those guns were used. They have no way of knowing otherwise until further evidence is gathered, but at that time, expect an arrest.

I understand it sucks, but we should really be careful about jumping up and down at cops trying to do their jobs. Does the law suck? Sure. Is your friend in a crappy situation, sure. Jumping up and down and crying foul when there's clearly more going on then a 2nd hand account on the internet allows for is irrational, and makes us look like crazy gun nuts.

X-Rap
November 24, 2008, 10:30 PM
3rd Battalion soldier still in jail after police standoff
SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 9, 2008
ARTICLE OPTIONS
A A A The man still being held Saturday night at the Metro-Jefferson Public Safety Building for involvement in a standoff with police is a staff sergeant with the 3rd Battalion, 85th Mountain Infantry, Fort Drum Warrior Transition Unit, according to post officials.

Staff Sgt. XXXXXXXXXXXXX was deployed to Iraq from August 2005 to July 2006. He is from Lubbock, Texas.

He was arrested Wednesday following a three-hour standoff with police at his Arsenal Street apartment. Police later found two unlicensed semiautomatic pistols and an ammunition magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds in his apartment.

On Wednesday, Watertown City Judge James C. Harberson ordered that Sgt. Dickson be held at the jail on $40,000 cash bail and $400,000 bond.


I don't know if this is the same story but if it is this Sgt. bought himself a world of hurt.
If its an innocent mistake its to bad these soldiers don't check into the laws of the states in which they are based especially when comming from fairly free states to those like New York,
My own kid got lucky and got the evil stuff out of the state before he was caught. They have to have a clue as to the severity of these infractions, on base guns are restricted more than anyplace in the country.
I hope all works out for him but he is at the mercy of the state of NY not the Army. Hope they don't want to make an example of him.

zminer
November 24, 2008, 10:52 PM
Sounds pretty similar, I must say. Watertown isn't that big a place - it seems odd that TWO such incidents would happen simultaneously. OP didn't mention anything about a three-hour standoff with police, but that is a better explanation as to why the police did such a thorough search of the house.

So, yeah, the final message of all of this is: know the laws of the state you're in, and don't break them.

Hawkmoon
November 24, 2008, 11:34 PM
Lawyer up.

Sinixstar
November 25, 2008, 02:37 AM
ummm.

wait.

really?

Am I the only one who thinks perhaps there's a LOT more to this story, after reading this:

He was arrested Wednesday following a three-hour standoff with police at his Arsenal Street apartment. Police later found two unlicensed semiautomatic pistols and an ammunition magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds in his apartment.

A stupid misunderstanding of the law, or some sort of "innocent mistake" doesn't result in a "3 hour standoff".
Let's get real for a minute here people.

Maelstrom
November 25, 2008, 09:31 AM
And suddenly every poster here learned what cops deal with every day. The "innocent" person may not be so innocent after all.

Old Fuff
November 25, 2008, 10:05 AM
He was arrested Wednesday following a three-hour standoff with police at his Arsenal Street apartment. Police later found two unlicensed semiautomatic pistols and an ammunition magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds in his apartment.

I have no idea waht caused the standoff, but if he had been in Arizona having two unlicensed semiautomatic pistols and a over-10 round magazine wouldn't have lifted an eyebrow. So far as the pistols being licensed, gun registration is against the law, and there are no restrictions on magazine capacity.

But New York is well.... New York. I wouldn't go one step into the place. My attitude extends to other locations like New Jersey, Massachusetts, California, Maryland, or cities such as Chicago or Washington D.C. The Sgt. had no choice because the Army assigned him there. On the other hand I do, and I will not reside in any place where people simply exsist, rather then live free. He may be in deep trouble, but I wish him luck. He put his life on the line to protect us all, and frankly - New York isn't worth the effort. :barf:

X-Rap
November 25, 2008, 10:57 AM
There is much of this story left to be told I'm sure. The NY police as fuff has pointed out are reacting to something that in most of the free parts of this country would not even get notice. The cause of the standoff could be related to many reasons the least of which is 2 deployments in a war zone and the training he has recieved from the gov.
The only crimes cited in the article are the gun charges. I wonder if the cops got a tip and over reacted and things escalated from there?
I hope the OP would keep us posted, and I will try to follow as well.
If the guy is straight then I wish the best for him.
I guess in the perfect world the Military would move their bases to states that didn't prosecute their soldiers for BS laws.

Sinixstar
November 25, 2008, 01:52 PM
and frankly - New York isn't worth the effort.

and many new yorker's say the same thing about arizona. imagine that.

beatcop
November 25, 2008, 02:00 PM
I call BS...a search & seizure warrant is based on probable cause and signed by a judge.

Sorry, the mere fact that a gunshot occurred near a particular residence is not PC. There's a bit missing from this, like the initial violation.

As far as a search being deemed illegal, anything found in the course of an illegal search is inadmissable.

Old Fuff
November 25, 2008, 03:30 PM
and many new yorker's say the same thing about arizona. imagine that.

We appreciate their attitude, and hope that they do indeed stay in New York… :scrutiny: :D

devilc
November 25, 2008, 03:55 PM
Is this a joke?
In the entirety of NY State, one cannot possess a pistol sans a spuriously issued permit?
Shame on all of you for allowing this to perpetuate.

Sinixstar
November 25, 2008, 04:14 PM
alright, let's get this all out in the open:


Possession:

Rifles and Shotguns: There is no state licensing requirement for the possession of a rifle or shotgun, although any person convicted of a felony or other serious offense and any person who "has been certified not suitable to possess a rifle or shotgun" (mentally incompetent) is prohibited from possession. A person who has been convicted of a felony or other serious offense may obtain a certificate of good conduct which will then permit him to possess rifles and shotguns. Generally, it is unlawful for anyone under the age of 16 to possess any firearm; however, a rifle or shotgun may be possessed by a person between the ages of 12 and 16 who is engaged in supervised target shooting on a range. A minor at least 14 years of age may hunt with any rifle or shotgun, provided he has a valid hunting license and is accompanied by his parent, guardian or other parentally-designated adult who also holds a valid hunting license.

Handguns: A license is needed to possess a handgun in one's home or place of business. Application is made to the "licensing officer" of the city or county where the applicant resides, is principally employed or where his principal place of business as a merchant or store keeper is located. (The licensing officer in New York City and Nassau County is the Police Commissioner; in Suffolk County, the Police Commissioner or Sheriff; elsewhere in the state, a county judge or some other designated judge or justice.)

The determination whether to grant the license has been held to be completely within the discretion of the licensing officer. However, the licensing officer must state "specifically and concisely" in writing the reasons for such denial. A denial can be overturned in court only if shown to be "arbitrary and capricious." In Westchester County the applicant must have successfully completed a firearms safety course and test. A license may be granted to an applicant who is of good moral character, over the age of 21 years, has not been convicted of a "serious offense," (This includes misdemeanors and violations as set forth in Section 265.00, Subd. 17, PL.) states if and when he has ever been treated for mental illness and as to whom "no good cause exists for the denial of the license." The age requirement shall not apply to persons honorably discharged from the military. Persons between age 18 and 20 may possess and use a handgun at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small arms or at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or approved by the NRA and while under the immediate supervision, guidance and instruction of a certified instruction and while possessing or using the instructor's licensed handgun.

A license may be granted to an applicant who is of good moral character, has not been convicted of a "serious offense," (This includes misdemeanors and violations as set forth in Section 265.00, Subd. 17, PL.) states if and when he has ever been treated for mental illness and as to whom "no good cause exists for the denial of the license." An investigation will be conducted of all statements required in the application. This includes taking the fingerprints and physical descriptive data of the applicant. One copy of the fingerprints will be forwarded to the FBI for a search of their criminal records. The failure or refusal of the FBI to make the fingerprint check shall not constitute the sole basis for refusal to issue a permit.

The licensing officer may, in his discretion, add restrictions to the license, limiting the places where the handgun may be kept or carried. No demonstration of "need" to possess is required to obtain an "on premises only" license valid for one's home or place of business, although "need" may be required for a license not restricted to one of those locations. An "on premises only" license authorizes the possession of a handgun only at the location written on the license. It does not authorize the holder to take such handgun to any other place.

Applications for licenses must be acted upon within 6 months after presentment. If there is a delay, there must be written notice to the applicant stating the reasons. Such delay may be only for "good cause." The statute provides that the failure of the FBI to process fingerprints is not a good cause for delay.

If issued, the license is valid until revoked, except in New York City, where the license shall expire not more 3 years after the date of issuance, and in Nassau, Suffolk, and Westchester Counties where the license shall expire not more than 5 years after the date of issuance. In Westchester County a license shall be recertified every 5 years prior to April 1. Certification means that the licensing officer shall be provided with the licensee's current name and address, date of birth, and the make, model, caliber, and serial number of all handguns currently possessed. The license fee is fixed by the board of supervisors in each county, with a $10.00 limit prescribed by state law. The Division of Criminal Justice Services sets the fingerprinting fee, which is currently $74.00. The fee for each amendment to the license is $3.00 ($5.00 in Suffolk County). In New York City and Nassau County, the City Council and Board of Supervisors, respectively, set the license fees without state law limitation. Each handgun possessed must be listed on the license by make, model, caliber and serial number. The only exception is possession of a properly licensed handgun by another licensee at a target range. Personal information submitted by the applicant to obtain the license becomes a matter of public record.

batjka
November 25, 2008, 04:16 PM
OK, the "standoff" would explain the felony charges.

Mere possession at home is a misdemeanor. If the cops come and search your residence and happen to find a handgun, it would be a misdemeanor in NYC and I'm sure the rest of the state is not stricter than NYC.

Good luck to the guy, hope he can beat the charges.

Sinixstar
November 25, 2008, 04:17 PM
also - there's one other catch about this:


Carrying:

A license to possess a handgun serves also as a license to carry unless restricted. If there are no restrictions written on the license, the licensee is permitted to carry a handgun, loaded or unloaded, concealed, on or about his person. An applicant for a license to carry must be required to show, in addition to the requirement for possession, that "proper cause exists" for the issuance of such a license; for example, for target shooting, hunting, or self-defense. The license can be amended to include one or more additional or different handguns. The licensee is required to carry the license on his person at all times when carrying a handgun. Possession of any "loaded" rifle or shotgun in a vehicle is illegal. A loaded handgun may be carried in a vehicle by a properly licensed individual. ("Loaded" means loaded in magazine or chamber. A loaded handgun means one for which the person possesses ammunition.)


So basically - you have to apply for a license to have a handgun - but your license is also your Concealed Carry permit. Really not NEARLY as bad as some people seem to want to make it out to be.

StrawHat
November 25, 2008, 04:26 PM
I call BS...a search & seizure warrant is based on probable cause and signed by a judge.

I don't see where the OP said they had a warrant. I believe it may have been a search incidental to an arrest or a consent search. Neither of which need warrants.

Doesn't matter, the OP has chosen not to update or respond.

His buddy however, needs some help. Legal and perhaps otherwise.

MT GUNNY
November 25, 2008, 04:43 PM
This is a perfect opertuity to get ahold of NRA Civil Defence Fund

http://www.nradefensefund.org/index.aspx
Click on Help button.

exospex
November 25, 2008, 04:44 PM
Aw, come on guys. Doesn't it all sound a little far fetched to begin with? No offense to OP intended, but I call BS on this one.

Old Fuff
November 25, 2008, 04:46 PM
Ah, but in the backward State of Arizona I need neither a "licence to possess," nor a licence to open carry. If I want to carry concealed I don't have to go to some judge or other official and beg. If I meet the qualifications (which are quite easy) I'll get a CCW.

If I am not disqualified by law (in other words a prohibited person) I don't have to contended with any state or local regulations at all. If I want to own a machine gun I can, after jumping through the hoops imposed by the Federal N.F.A.

At the age of 18, one can private-purachase a handgun and open carry it. Should I decide to carry a loaded handgun in my car I can do so, with no required license or permit.

Please explain why I might have any reason to move to New York?

Sinixstar
November 25, 2008, 04:51 PM
Please explain why I might have any reason to move to New York?

You don't - by all means, stay in AZ.

Sinixstar
November 25, 2008, 04:58 PM
also - another little tidbit of information:

Second person arrested
over standoff on Nov. 4

Watertown police have made a second arrest as a result of the three-hour armed standoff they had Nov. 4 at 536 Arsenal St.

Jared L. Staggs, 23, Fort Drum, was charged Thursday morning with third- and fourth-degree counts of criminal possession of a weapon. He awaits grand jury action.

Police said he was not present during the standoff, but a gun seized at the scene, a .40-caliber semiautomatic pistol with a large-capacity ammunition feeding device, is owned by Mr. Staggs. The gun is registered in Texas, but is not licensed in New York, making it illegally possessed, police said.

The man in the standoff, Cornelius B. Dickson, 31, who was staying at 536 Arsenal St., faces the same two weapon counts. He is a Fort Drum soldier and a veteran of combat in Iraq.

so let me get this straight...
Guy leaves guns at his buddy's house.
Buddy mixes it up with cops in a 3 hour standoff.
They both end up in jail.

Tell me again why i'm supposed to feel sorry for either one of these people?

Old Fuff
November 25, 2008, 10:02 PM
Another unfortunate that owned (oh I shudder in horror) a .40-caliber semiautomatic pistol with a large-capacity ammunition feeding device in New York. New York dingbats in the media can't even say "magazine." Instead it's a "large-capacity ammunition feeding device." :eek:

In Arizona or Texas they'd be free as a bird, but not in New York. Excluding the supposed stand-off, all I see here as a crime is simple possession of unregistered handguns and one 10-round magazine. Since New Yorkers see this as a crime I will be delighted to remain in Arizona. Here I can own all the semiautomatic pistols and large-capacity ammunition feeding devices that I want, without even a hard look from the authorities. I presume that this is one of the perks you get by living in fly-over country... :cool:

Sinixstar
November 25, 2008, 10:17 PM
Excluding the supposed stand-off

I don't see how you can exclude the supposed stand-off. That's kind of at the heart of this whole situation.

Speaking of which - in your great freedom loving state of arizona - what would happen if a couple of your guns turned up in a house where somebody holed up in a standoff with police? Think perhaps there might be some interest in you, and some interest in how those guns got there? I'm guessing probably...

Old Fuff
November 25, 2008, 10:44 PM
The details concerning the stand-off are not too clear, and I wouldn't trust a New York media report any further then I could throw a bull... well you know what... :D

But anyway, under the circumstances you describe...

If I hadn't been there an investigator would call and ask if perhaps my guns had been stolen. If I said, "no" they'd ask, "any idea how they got into the house? Let's say I said, "yes, I loaned them to so & so."

Now you must understand that in Arizona, unlike New York, there would be nothing illegal here. The guns don't have to be regestered (in fact gun registration is against the law) and 10-round magazines are not prohibited. Apparently the two individuals in question didn't have a prior criminal record, so I wouldn't be in thouble for loaning them guns - regardless of how many rounds the magazine might hold.

So the investigator would tell me, "We have to hold the guns in evidence for the time being, but when the case is settled one way or another you'll get them back."

Part of the reason I live in Arizona is because of the difference in the way this case would be handled between here and New York - which I won't even visit.

Sinixstar
November 25, 2008, 10:46 PM
The details concerning the stand-off are not too clear, and I wouldn't trust a New York media report any further then I could throw a bull... well you know what...


Are you suggesting they completely made up a 3 hour police standoff? That would be pretty ballsy - even for "new york media".

Although - it is worth mentioning that New York as a whole is not NEARLY as liberal as New York City. New York City just happens to make up a bulk of the population. Kinda like how the entire state of Nevada is as deep red as it comes, except for Las Vegas....

leadcounsel
November 25, 2008, 10:51 PM
Warrantless search -with no exception- comes to mind. Evidence gathered from the warrantless search may be inadmissable.

Yes, he needs to SHUT UP and talk to a lawyer. JAG will talk to him for free, make some phone calls to the DA, etc. but will not be able to represent him in a civilian criminal court. The bad news is that he may also face military charges (administrative punishment or greater) even if NY drops the case. It's up to the military Trial Counsel and his chain of command. But he absolutely needs to SHUT UP and talk to a lawyer!

I'm willing to bed he's already made his bed with consent or confessions however. If that's the case he's got an uphill battle.

Old Fuff
November 25, 2008, 11:04 PM
I have no idea what provoked the stand-off, but in Arizona there wouldn't have been one because no crime had been comitted. The pistols didn't have to be licensed/registered, possessing them in and of itself was not illegal, and there was nothing wrong with having a 10-round magazine. These two are apparently in the Army, and one or both have been in combat, putting their lives on the line so to speak. Unfortunately they had the misfortune to be reassigned to New York - something I wouldn't wish to happen to anybody.

Sinixstar
November 25, 2008, 11:19 PM
I have no idea what provoked the stand-off, but in Arizona there wouldn't have been one because no crime had been comitted. The pistols didn't have to be licensed/registered, possessing them in and of itself was not illegal, and there was nothing wrong with having a 10-round magazine. These two are apparently in the Army, and one or both have been in combat, putting their lives on the line so to speak. Unfortunately they had the misfortune to be reassigned to New York - something I wouldn't wish to happen to anybody.


Well - but again, without knowing what sparked the standoff - you don't know if a crime had been committed do you?
We're making assumptions based on a 2nd hand story that has yet to be clarified, a half-dozen line police blotter entry, and some bias against the state of new york. Hardly looking at cold hard facts objectively.

I think if you look at what is there, and what has been said - something doesn't add up, and there's a whole lot more to this then has been let on thus far. Don't you think?

Old Fuff
November 26, 2008, 01:02 AM
Watertown police have made a second arrest as a result of the three-hour armed standoff they had Nov. 4 at 536 Arsenal St.

Jared L. Staggs, 23, Fort Drum, was charged Thursday morning with third- and fourth-degree counts of criminal possession of a weapon. He awaits grand jury action.

Police said he was not present during the standoff, but a gun seized at the scene, a .40-caliber semiautomatic pistol with a large-capacity ammunition feeding device, is owned by Mr. Staggs. The gun is registered in Texas, but is not licensed in New York, making it illegally possessed, police said.

The man in the standoff, Cornelius B. Dickson, 31, who was staying at 536 Arsenal St., faces the same two weapon counts. He is a Fort Drum soldier and a veteran of combat in Iraq.

What I am saying is this is an outrage. One of the two men is a Fort Drum soldier and a combat veteran. The other one likely is too. I suspect that the stand-off probably happened because Dickerson paniced when the house was raided. There may have also been some flashbacks to his experiences in Iraq. The other man (who wasn't even in the house) is also from Fort Drum, probably a soldier, and likely also a combat veteran. They're crime is to have possessed 2 handguns, with one having what the idots call a "large-capacity ammunition feeding device." If they had been in Arizona rather then having the bad luck to be in New York none of this would have happened. Those are the cold hard facts - at least as they have been represented to us.

Do I have a bias against New York and its gun laws? You bet I do! You haven't noticed that there a lot of things that I can do that you can't? The difference is called individual freedom. Some enjoy it and others do not. You don't. It's as simple as that.

Sinixstar
November 26, 2008, 01:08 AM
You haven't noticed that there a lot of things that I can do that you can't?

I live in Nevada - there's probably not a whole heck of a lot you can do I can't. :D

The law sucks. Nobody's denying that.
The problem is - it is the law. Sucks or not - live by it or pay the price. Guy didn't live by it, he paid the price. It sucks - but I have very little sympathy.
The NY law is an inconvenience, yes. But there's not much of an excuse there.

Speedo66
November 26, 2008, 01:30 AM
'Ya know, Arizona sounds so wonderfull I don't know why they just don't shut down all those other states and everybody just move there.

Look, all the states have different laws, and people live in them for many different reasons. To have someone from one state tell how wonderfull their state is is and how bad someone else's is ....well, need I say more?

All I can say is it's been my experience after almost 40 years (and counting) as a peace officer, that it's extremely rare to get "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" from anybody.

SwearNoAllegiance
November 26, 2008, 05:23 AM
I sense a Hatfield & McCoy type relationship developing between Arizona and New York here.

Lt. B
November 26, 2008, 07:49 AM
I havent read this whole thread and Im not going to. Down here in VA., there are 3 sides to every event such as this. His side, Her side and then we have The way it is. I can tell you without a doubt there is a WHOLE lot more to this than has been posted here. Here in my city a few random gunshots will not even bring a LEO unless someones hit, there is property damage or someone will sign a complaint. SWAT has to have a warrant or probable cause. If this was just a good ole boy from Txs minding his own bizzness he wouldnt be in the fix hes in. If you want us to make judgement here give us HER side...the police report and we will then deduce the way it is.

Art Eatman
November 26, 2008, 12:22 PM
Enuf...

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