Rule #4, be sure of your target and what's beyond....


PDA






SSN Vet
November 18, 2008, 09:21 AM
seems to happen every year....

several lives shattered.... needlessly!

can't really make a judgement without knowing all the details (lay of land, visibility, etc...)

yet it is my opinion, that no matter what the circumstances, if YOU put YOUR finger on the trigger and squeeze it, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHATEVER HAPPENS!

---------------------------------------------------


11/17/08

SWAN LAKE, N.Y. — An upstate toddler was killed by a stray bullet when a New York City deer hunter fired his rifle too close to her grandparents' Hudson Valley home.

Edward Taibi, 45, of Queens was being held without bail Monday after arraignment on a second-degree manslaughter charge in the town of Bethel court. Taibi was hunting from a tree stand Sunday afternoon in rural Sullivan County when he shot a deer. He came down from the stand and fired the .30-caliber rifle again about 400 feet away from a trailer home in Swan Lake, a small community just south of the Catskill Mountains.

The bullet hit 16-month-old Charly Skala in the upper body. She was flown to Westchester Medical Center, where she died. Police said the child's parents live in nearby Woodburne.

Taibi is friends with the owner of the neighboring property and had hunted there before, said State Police Lt. Pierce Gallagher.

His case was assigned to the Sullivan Legal Aid Bureau, where attorney Jeff Bradley said Monday it was too soon to comment on the case.

Several neighbors declined comment Monday afternoon when reached by The Associated Press.

The rifle season for deer opened Saturday in the region that includes Sullivan County. Under state law, it's illegal to discharge a firearm or bow within 500 feet of any occupied residence or business unless the hunter owns or leases the property, or has the owner's consent, according to Maureen Wren of the state Department of Environmental Conservation.

Swan Lake is about 85 miles northwest of New York City.

If you enjoyed reading about "Rule #4, be sure of your target and what's beyond...." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Carlos Cabeza
November 18, 2008, 01:34 PM
Sad.
What was the point of firing the rifle again ? Celebratory gunfire ?

I can't stand to hunt with people who insist on shooting the first butterfly they see or shooting a bird as soon as we get out of the truck. Many times I have been deer hunting WITH ONLY ONE CARTRIDGE. Few people understand that if you do it right YOU ONLY NEED ONE !

The look on some hunters faces is priceless !
"Wadda ya mean you only have one bullet ?, I'm carrying 47 rounds on me right now"...............:cuss:

jasonst
November 18, 2008, 01:37 PM
What a sad shame.

GRB
November 18, 2008, 01:45 PM
One has to wonder if the house could be seen. My guess is it was a wooded area. It is possible all he could see was trees, and therefore believed the area beyond the target was clear. I try to make it a point to check out the area, around which I hunt, for residences and such so as to avoid being to close and so as to avoid shooting in their direction even if further than 500 feet.

As for being absolutely certain of what is beyond your target out in the woods, that is pretty near impossible. There could always be someone you cannot see out there. I have seen hunters during firearms deer season in all como, and even saw a guy once in a brown coat that looked strikingly similar to the hide of a deer in coloration. Of course such was not the case in this incident.

It is certainly a tragedy and my condolences go out to the family of the deceased.

GRB
November 18, 2008, 01:57 PM
Carlos,

Sad.
What was the point of firing the rifle again ? Celebratory gunfire ?

I can't stand to hunt with people who insist on shooting the first butterfly they see or shooting a bird as soon as we get out of the truck. Many times I have been deer hunting WITH ONLY ONE CARTRIDGE. Few people understand that if you do it right YOU ONLY NEED ONE !

I imagine the point of shooting again was quite possibly that he had thought he had wounded the deer but not mortally. I tend to doubt it would be due to celebratory gunfire as you call it, I have never seen a hunter celebrate like that and I have been hunting a fairly long time.
I also have never seen anyone out hunting who shot at butterflies; or who shot a bird as soon as they got out of their vehicle.

As for how much ammo you carry, please allow me to be so bold as to make a suggestion based solely upon possibilities. I would recommend you always carry additional ammunition with you while hunting. It is rather short sighted, and even edging on being irresponsible to carry only a single round if only because there is always the possibility that your shot will not be a killing shot. To not have additional ammunition to complete the task would be, at the very least, less than being prepared properly while hunting. In addition the chances of ruining a hunt because of the possibility of a misfire due to a faulty cartridge are great enough to warrant carrying additional ammunition with you.

All the best,
GB

mbt2001
November 18, 2008, 01:58 PM
This is a horrible tragedy

I wonder how hunting is allowed where there are occupied dwellings in the near vicinity...

I don't think the hunter should go to jail based on what I read above. For the record, I don't think he did anything near the below... Accidental death, but I don't see where he acted recklessly... Given what I have read in the story anyway.

125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.
A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:
1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or
2. He commits upon a female an abortional act which causes her death,
unless such abortional act is justifiable pursuant to subdivision three
of section 125.05; or
3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.
Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.

The National and State Forest Service bear some culpability here as well. Use this to make others safer by passing regulations that are proactive and help this from repeating, not feel good measures that accomplish nothing.

mgregg85
November 18, 2008, 02:21 PM
Wow thats really sad.

I will refrain from commenting because I don't know if it was 'celebratory gunfire' or a coup de grace. Let the courts decide before we judge the man.

rondog
November 18, 2008, 02:24 PM
I also read a thread a couple days ago (maybe here, maybe another forum) about keeping your rifle close and handy when you're field dressing your kill, to protect yourself against a bear or cougar that might have designs on taking your kill away from you. That macho "single cartridge" attitude wouldn't do you much good then.

And no matter how well you "do it right", the bullet you fire might get deflected by an unseen branch or blade of grass just enough to throw your perfect killing shot off enough to make it a wounding shot. Then you have a gravely injured and suffering animal, and no more ammo to finish the job.

Carry enough ammo or stay home. Be a responsible hunter, not a macho one.

And when I lived in New York, there were few areas where you could use a high-powered rifle, it was mostly shotguns w/slugs, handguns, black powder or archery only.

drgrenthum
November 18, 2008, 03:46 PM
slow your roll mbt, this was an accident and as such i dont want the National and State Forest Service to pass new regulations as a knee jerk reaction.

Unfortunately there is no such thing as an accident in these days and times. He will probably be convicted and hopefully only receive probation. He will never be able to own a firearm again however and will surely feel regret rest of his life.

Thanks to the OP for posting this and reminding us to be vigalint about the 4 rules. Sometimes $#!7 happens.

Carlos Cabeza
November 18, 2008, 05:40 PM
The speculation being reason for the second shot. If he had time to climb down from his treestand and then fire again, one would think the "coup de gras" defense was nil. My statement concerning the "single cartridge" was not intended to sound macho, but merely to place emphasis on shot placement. In my own experience, rarely ever have I shot at the same animal more than once.

For the record I do carry five rounds in an ammo carrier to minimize noise.
My rifle is a Rem 700 and has a couple in the magazine for follow-ups.
For other predators, I carry a .44 magnum Ruger Vaquero.

And yes, if you take people (young uns) hunting that have little "trigger time" and short attention spans, sometimes one will let off a round at whatever. That is when you explain the concept of hunting to them.

I try to do that beforehand, but it has happened on more than one occasion.

unisonic12
November 18, 2008, 06:57 PM
Many times I have been deer hunting WITH ONLY ONE CARTRIDGE. Few people understand that if you do it right YOU ONLY NEED ONE !

Uh, yeah, right...whatever. What if you've lined up the perfect shot on a monster trophy buck and...pffft... You have a dud round or a misfire? What then, hmmm?

For the record I do carry five rounds in an ammo carrier to minimize noise.
My rifle is a Rem 700 and has a couple in the magazine for follow-ups.

You loudly proclaim (via caps) that YOU ONLY NEED ONE CARTRIDGE, yet you don't practice what you preach? :rolleyes:

f4t9r
November 18, 2008, 07:31 PM
This is the season (Deer) that this rule is very important.
People see that deer and do not think what is behind the target.

Carlos Cabeza
November 19, 2008, 02:25 PM
Read the post again! I HAVE SHOT OVER A DOZEN DEER WITH ONLY ONE SHOT ! (probably more, I lose count. Been deer hunting 25 yrs.)

Also, I shoot many different calibers in quanities of hundreds and hundreds. I have NEVER had a misfire using quality ammunition that is offered by most manufacturers.

I follow the rule of "If it's not a clean shot that I feel comfortable making, I DO NOT SHOOT ! PERIOD !"

I practice with my rifle out to 225 yd. and consistently keep 3 shot 4" to 5" groups.

I only put that other stuff up there for richards like you.

If you read my profile under "what do you do for RKBA?" It says, "Introduce TEN new shooters to the sport EVERY year." Sometimes it can be a challenge to keep this promise to myself, but I count every one a win for OUR cause.
It is also my responsibility to be a judge of character and mental capacity of those who I choose to mentor. Hell, even I make a mistake now and then.

THR !

garymc
November 19, 2008, 03:31 PM
"Hell, even I make a mistake now and then."

I'd say your first post was one. Chalk it up to being emotionally charged up. The first, most obvious, possibility for a shot after coming out of the tree was to finish the deer he shot or thought he shot. But one of the big advantages of tree stand hunting, it should be pointed out, was lost when he no longer had the ground as a backstop after he exited the tree stand. Logical speculation would suggest if the deer was on its feet and likely still moving he shot at it from a position level with it. Moving target, etc. While I'm speculating, I would also say I shouldn't be since, like the rest of us, I don't know what really happened.

mbt2001
November 22, 2008, 12:13 PM
slow your roll mbt, this was an accident and as such i dont want the National and State Forest Service to pass new regulations as a knee jerk reaction.

Amigo, I didn't say that they should pass a reaction law, I did say that there bear some culpability here... There is the IDEA that if the area was been designated a hunting area, there shouldn't be any mobile homes around. The sad fact of human existence is that we only learn from tragedy. The first cars didn't have breaks... Everyone was so pre-occupied with getting GOING and BUILDING, that they didn't install breaks. Ditto most everything else. The forest service should go through and review some things.

Did you guys read the post? 400 yards! That is 4 football fields, that is almost a quater mile.... Stop with this RULE 4 crap. Most likely he saw trees in his background and in a 1 in a million shot, it didn't hit any trees and went into a house the guy probily didn't know was there in the first place.

To say this classifies as a rule # 4 scenario is stretching Rule 4 to the breaking point. With a view like that, you can't ever shoot. 400 yard clear space... trees... a mobile home you can't see where a girl is running through the living room exactly when your bullet traverses said room...

ants
November 22, 2008, 01:05 PM
Funny that Dick Cheney didn't get charged? He failed at the same rule.

Accidents are accidental, that's why they call them accidents. But each shooter must stand up and be responsible for his/her actions. Edward Taibi is doing that now, and must be commended for standing up. The little victim was 400 feet away, and the shooter likely could have fled into the woods and escaped. The fact that the accident happened is truly tragic, the fact that the responsible man is standing up for his responsibilities is commendable. He and the victim's family will both pay a lifelong price for his failure to adhere to a safety rule.

JImbothefiveth
November 22, 2008, 01:18 PM
Just a note, the personal attacks should probably stop. I think this thread should stay open, it really illustrates the importance of good gun safety.

scrat
November 22, 2008, 01:20 PM
i WAS DEBATING ON WEATHER TO OPEN THIS OR NOT WHEN I READ THE TITLE. SAD TO SEE IT WAS WHAT I THOUGHT. MY THOUGHTS GO OUT TO THE CHILD.

If you enjoyed reading about "Rule #4, be sure of your target and what's beyond...." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!