.416 Ruger


PDA






Tang419
November 18, 2008, 04:39 PM
:what: http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=790

400grn Bullet at 2325 from a 20" barreled Hawkeye. I have absolutley no use for one other than to feed my recoil addiction. I've got my dealer watching, I'm getting one just as soon as they become available.

Should be fun on Virginia Whitetail or Black Bear....lol


They've also got the new .338 Marlin Express in a Lever gun, but that doesnt excite me any. http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=787

Anyhoo, seen that this morning, thought I would post it. If it's a repost, sorry.

If you enjoyed reading about ".416 Ruger" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
jbech123
November 18, 2008, 05:39 PM
why anyone would want a proprietary cartridge that is way harder to find, yet offers zero performance increase. 300 RCM, 375 ruger and now this. This is really the silliest one so far since the 40 cal rounds are a fairly niche market anyhow. Just curious how the 416 ruger brings anything to this party:

416 ruger - 400grn Bullet at 2325

416 rem mag - 400grn @ 2449

416 rigby - 400grn @2515

Tang419
November 18, 2008, 05:45 PM
It's from a 20" barrel. Whats the lenght on the other two ?

Im not sure if you load your own .416 Rigby or not, but my Lyman manual shows 2434 top speed for a 400gn from a 24" barreled .416 Rigby.

I've got it this way.

.416 Rigby - 2434fps with a 400gr-24"
.416 Rem Mag - 2415 w/ 400grn-24"
.416 Ruger - 2325 w/ 400grn- 20"

I'll take the short barrel anyday.

jbech123
November 18, 2008, 06:14 PM
I just went out to some ballistics tables on the net, I personally have a .375 H&H so I do not load for the 416 of any flavor.

So if we go with your numbers, if we had a 20" bbl on the rem and rigby, at those velocity ranges they would probably be almost all exactly the same. I say this because a friend of mine has the exact same 375 as I do, and he chopped is barrel down to 20" and mine is at 24, and with Remington factory ammo 300 grn swift A-frame, his chrony's ~70fps slower than mine.
So I still see a new proprietary cartridge that essentially duplicates 2 cartridges already in widespread use in a very limited market. To each their own, and I'm all for a new cartridge, it's just these new ruger rounds are really nothing new. I mean what is the 300 rcm doing that the 300 wsm and 300 saum didn't already do. Heck I thought the saum was redundant.

Shawnee
November 18, 2008, 06:42 PM
If you touch that off from a 20" barrel your entire mental and physical concept of the term "LOUD" is going to be ramped up about 500%.

;)

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
November 18, 2008, 07:04 PM
You don't get it?

OK,

Less powder (1), doing nearly the same as the tried and proven cartridges/balistics through an even shorter barrel (2), and doing it without a belted case (3), marketing something new for us junkies to play with (4).

-Same as with the WSM series that isn't any better than the 300winmag, or Ackly offerings for the 30-06, 270 or 243. And the 280rem fits right in there just below the 7mm rem mag. Or that the 30-338wild cat and .308Norma can do the same as the .30wsm's and the 300winmag as they have for more than 30 years.

It's just Remington, Hornady and Ruger answering the WSM offerings in something different.

The only true ammunition inovations in the last couple of years have been the LeverEvolution bullets from Hornady and the Marlin .308Express, (Hornady).

Shawnee is right!

-Steve

earlthegoat2
November 18, 2008, 08:32 PM
ruger seems to be in a role at "inventing" new cartridges. So far they have not developed one that doesnt do the exact same thing as another one.

17HMR=22Mag
327 Federal=32HRmag
17M2=22LR
375Ruger=375HH
416Ruger=416Rigby/Remington
308MarlinExp=308Win
338MarlinExp=338WinMag

To add to all that they have not improved anything. Most layman might think that they made the same cartridge in a smaller and more convenient package but what they actually did was duplicate ballistics in a smaller package which leads to high pressures and case sticking. Not to mention hard wear on the rifle.

Stop reinventing the wheel already and get rid of the Hawkeye series of rifles and keep making the good ones. ie:Mark 3, 10/22, Single Six, LCP, 77 Mk2, Balckhawk, etc.

They are a great company with priorities in gutter.

Breathing, breathing, rant over.

jbech123
November 18, 2008, 09:05 PM
Less powder (1), OK, Although I can't imagine that would be a huge factor, since the number of rounds fired downrange with a .416 is pretty small for most people.


doing nearly the same as the tried and proven cartridges/balistics through an even shorter barrel (2), How so, the ballistics look about the same out of a 20" barrel.


and doing it without a belted case (3), I don't see how that is of great advantage in a round like this. We are not exactly talking about a gun that will be used for benchrest shooting.


marketing something new for us junkies to play with (4). Sure, I understand that. I'm just saying even a guy semi serious about shooting should skip over this round since it offers no ballistic advantage. If you like to tinker, so be it.


Same as with the WSM series that isn't any better than the 300winmag, No that at least is a shorter cartridge that can be used in shrt action rifles. Not a huge difference, but at least something to hang your hat on.


It's just Remington, Hornady and Ruger answering the WSM offerings in something different. How is the SAUM and RCM different from the WSM ballistically?

.38 Special
November 18, 2008, 09:24 PM
The Rigby gets results with very low pressure, which is desirable for a cartridge that needs to be dependable in very warm (Africa) weather. The classic 400/2400 FPS load that is shown in many manuals is the low pressure load. It is perfectly safe to load the Rigby to "modern" pressures -- as shown in several manuals -- with the result being almost Weatherby-level velocities -- although why anyone would want that is beyond me. At any rate, the Rigby is absolutely capable of meeting the Ruger velocities in the same length barrel, and anyone who does not believe it is no student of ballistics. A smaller powder chamber cannnot deliver higher velocities than a larger powder chamber, assuming similar working pressure.

As far as I can tell, the only real advantage of the Ruger is shorter bolt throw, and I only call this an advantage because I am told some people cannot reliably manage the extra half inch of bolt on a magnum action. I have not personally seen or experienced this, but the idea that equipment can overcome incompetence has been upon us for some time now.

I am sure the Ruger will be a fine cartridge in a fine rifle. But as has been pointed out, it certainly does seem like an unnecessary reinvention of the wheel, and for a niche market to boot. Hopefully folks will find them rewarding and the company will make a profit.

gvnwst
November 18, 2008, 09:26 PM
Very well put.

.38 Special
November 18, 2008, 09:27 PM
and doing it without a belted case (3),

The Rigby, FWIW, is beltless. Not that I consider that an important factor either way.

win71
November 18, 2008, 10:45 PM
If you touch that off from a 20" barrel your entire mental and physical concept of the term "LOUD" is going to be ramped up about 500%.
Unless you were on the ENOLA GAY it won't get much worse.
I shoot a 416 Rem. Mag. 24" barrel and that isn't pleasant.

earlthegoat2
November 18, 2008, 11:12 PM
so basically the Ruger is also beltless which lends itself to more case sticking issues because it headspaces on its shoulder.

.38 Special
November 18, 2008, 11:43 PM
The belt's got little or nothing to do with it. The Ruger is simply a higher pressure cartridge than the Rigby. It is on par with any other modern high-intensity rifle cartridge, from the .223 to the .458 Winchester. And in all fairness, those cartridges all work. Especially with today's far less temperature-sensitive powders, "modern" pressures are almost guaranteed safe, even in darkest Africa -- where few, BTW, .416 users find themselves these days, if we're being perfectly honest.

However -- and this may be an important thing -- hunters who literally depend upon their rifles to save their lives are probably well-advised to use the absolutely most reliable gun they can. That definition has historically included the lowest possible working pressures available. So if you are one of the very few folks who are going to fighting dangerous animals on the dark continent, the Ruger is probably not the best idea. If, OTOH, you are anyone else, the Ruger is sure to work just fine. Personally, I have simply read too much Ruark and will stick with the Rigby. YMM, of course, V.

Tang419
November 19, 2008, 05:08 AM
I would love to have a .416 for no other reason than just to have one. I'm thinking about getting a TC Pro Hunter, that way when my mood changes, the rifle can to. They offer a factory .416 Rigby barrel as well. The 300gr Barnes Triple Shock might be a good deer round for low meat damage

Didnt mean to stir up a debate, just thought it was a nice interesting new cartridge.

Now to the .338 Marlin Express being a .338 Win Mag. I've never seen a .338 WM in a compact lever rifle.

chrissmallwood
November 19, 2008, 04:21 PM
Earlthegoat:
ruger seems to be in a role at "inventing" new cartridges. So far they have not developed one that doesnt do the exact same thing as another one.

17HMR=22Mag
327 Federal=32HRmag
17M2=22LR
375Ruger=375HH
416Ruger=416Rigby/Remington
308MarlinExp=308Win
338MarlinExp=338WinMag


Ruger had nothing to do with the 17HMR, 17M2, 308 Marlin Express or the 338Marlin Express, that was all Hornady. The 327 is more than just a 32H&R magnum. I dont see the point of the RCM's but if they work good and they get people to buy them then more power to them.

db_tanker
November 19, 2008, 05:10 PM
meh....why bother?

I have a 416 Taylor...yeah its belted but oh well, does that make it obsolete? :) lol


I guess that the 300 WM or 338 WM or 458 WM or 7mm RM are all worthless too.

but I gotta give 'em credit...there are a ton of folks out there that want to buy the newest or fastest or neatest gizmo...just more work for the folks who produce Cartridges of the World. :)

D

Tang419
November 19, 2008, 05:14 PM
Hey hey, watch it, the .300 WM is a passion for me :D

db_tanker
November 20, 2008, 05:29 PM
hey...I want a 300 WM...I want to play around with those 200 grain 308 bullets...would like to find a magnum length mauser action to play with and a nice 28" barrel...just to see what I could get them bad boys to do.


also forgot that there was some interesting wildcat based on the WSM cartridge necked up to 416. Woodswalker or some name like that. Looked interesting...guess Ruger thought so as well. :) lol

earlthegoat2
November 20, 2008, 09:26 PM
I dont argue that any of these work, I argue what the point is.

The 17HMR, 17M2, were developed by Hornady in cahoots with Marlin and Ruger. I can only imagine they had influence in the 308 Marlin Express and the 338Marlin Express as well.

B BRI
November 20, 2008, 09:41 PM
. . . even though I already have a 416 Rigby, and God knows I don't need another big bore:evil:, after playing with a 375 Ruger 77 African at Bass Pro Shop, I am convinced that I will own one in 416 Ruger.

Just a rifle that fits when you swing it up to the shoulder . . .

I've always thought I would like a 416 Taylor, just for fun, and this new Ruger might just fit the bill instead.

B BRI
November 20, 2008, 09:55 PM
. . . and one can never have too many "Elmer Keith Class" shooters . . .

I've always wanted a 476 Westley Richards since he carried one . . . . will I ever find/afford one, probably not, but that doesn't stop various other big bores from following me home.

The more the merrier.

Tang419
November 21, 2008, 05:06 AM
DB, I am ordering some 200gr Accubonds and 200gr Gamekings to toy with. Should be able to get 2900ish out of my 24" barrel.

B BRI, I use Elmer Keith as my argument for overkill calibers :D

db_tanker
November 21, 2008, 08:57 AM
I had my "Elmer Kieth" period in reloading already...


44 Mag 14" Contender and 45 Win Mag 10" contender.


When I was getting a fireball out of the 44 Mag that rivaled most M-44 Mosins...and was having to recheck the scope bases after every shoot...well...I figured that he already walked those paths and didn't need my foot-prints all over the trail. :)


Now I try to stick to the middle of the loads and a bit lower.

Back to Tang419....2900 with a 200 grain pill would be some serious medicine for any critter around here....ESPECIALLY those Game Kings...I love them bullets. I love Sierra bullets.

B BRI
November 21, 2008, 11:09 AM
I fell in love with the big bores reading Keith, and have loaded up to the max on several of them in my younger days. But with age and a little wisdom I have really found his message to actually be this -

big bullets with good sectional density at moderate velocities = big medicine

and as Elmer said, "you can eat up to the hole".

.38 Special
November 21, 2008, 01:33 PM
One undeserved reputation Keith had to put up with was of being a proponent of "maximum" loads. He very pointedly claimed that maximum loads were foolish and counterproductive, and repeatedly asked manufacturers to turn down the power on many cartridges, the .44 magnum included. And IIRC, he wrote that the handloader flirting with maximum loads was akin to a teenage boy with his foot in the carburetor, trying to see how fast it will go.
Both are candidates for a hospital berth, I think is how he put it.

FWIW!

McCall911
November 21, 2008, 03:13 PM
...like I need another hole in my head.
:D

I understand some of the concepts behind the .416 Ruger: You can use a shorter action than the big Rigby, you don't need a belted case, etc. But I agree that this cartridge is sort of an unnecessary development on the part of Ruger.

One thing that I would have liked to see, instead of another bolt-rifle .416, is the commercial development of a lever-action cartridge in this caliber. (Hello, Marlin.)

Tang419
November 22, 2008, 08:08 PM
Ruger told me the .416 will be out in early 2009.

moosehunt
November 22, 2008, 09:10 PM
So when does need or neccesity have anything to do with all these different cartridges? Since we already have the .30-06, we don't "need" anything else--at least on this continent. But that doesn't affect want and use and play with! How many of you have more than 1 rifle? No way you can convince me you need more than 1. But I, like most of you, have a couple of dozen. For fun and play and enjoyment and, heaven forbid, want. So another "unneeded" cartridge comes along. You don't want one? Then don't buy one, but don't criticize the guy who does want one or the company that chose to make it because they thought that maybeso there were some guys out there that wanted one. Does it really harm you or hurt that someone might want a .416 RCM, or anything else that they don't "need"? I doubt that I'll get a .416 Ruger, but I sure won't throw rocks at the guy who does get one. In fact, if he'll let me, you can bet I'll take a few shots with it. Probably more than that if he'll let me! Incidently, as fine a cartridge as the .416 Rigby is, it's length in particular makes it quite problematic to find actions (bolt) that it will fit in, certainly kind of a strike against it.

Afy
November 22, 2008, 09:26 PM
You want to bench rest a .416?

What is wrong with the 6PPC?

Tang419
November 22, 2008, 09:32 PM
The .416 Ruger in Ruger's controlled round feed rifles, should be a very reliable package. With massive power to boot.

AFY, yes, I would and will benchrest a .416, because I'm crazy like that. I've already told my friend to order me one, the minute they come available.

Afy
November 22, 2008, 09:39 PM
Tang.. good for you... woiuld love to see results.

Should be fun...

Tang419
November 22, 2008, 09:45 PM
It will be fun. Enjoyable, I doubt. But all the big boomers are fun, and I've never got to shoot anything bigger than a .375 H&H.

The Barnes 300gr TSX for the .416's, should be good for reduced loads, and light duty hunting.

moosehunt
November 23, 2008, 01:01 AM
Glad to see you ordered one, 419. Good for you! Be anxious to hear how you like it.

Matt304
November 23, 2008, 11:19 AM
Tang419:

AFY, yes, I would and will benchrest a .416, because I'm crazy like that.

You can benchrest shoot a 6mm, or a 700 Nitro Express. It's only a position. Producing accurate results from the bench with the big rifles is a whole different ballgame, though. The inherent effects of rifle recoil travel before the bullet leaves the muzzle in a highly recoiling gun make such guns a poor choice for any "benchrest" type accuracy. They require a perfect balance and hold.

I can't find .416 Ruger brass anywhere, but I did find .375 Ruger which you can fireform to .416. It is cheaper by a good amount over .416 Rigby, so that's a benefit. But, why again do you want a smaller case to feed your "recoil addiction"? Recoil addiction calls for bigger cases with higher powder capacities! :evil: In that case, I would be taking the 375RUM case to .416 for a wildcat. Get it in a Savage bolt rifle, bore the barrel, and you have one cheap monster cartridge with cheap brass. :evil: :evil: :evil:

I must talk about this earlier quote:

Earlthegoat2:

17HMR=22Mag
17M2=22LR

Two of the poorest comparisons I've ever seen made! Well, actually the first one more so. I am getting 1.5-2" groups at 280 yards with the 17HMR in little wind. I would love to see a 22Mag do that without tumbling!!!

Tang419
November 24, 2008, 04:36 AM
A .416 RUM would be one helluva thumper.

I do love my Savage rifle, but I also love my M77 MkII. The 20" Alaskan version are just sexy to me. I have a 3-9x40 Leupold waiting to go on it, but ofcourse that's prolly too much zoom and too little eye relief.

countryrebel
December 29, 2008, 01:47 PM
Moosehunt I could not have said it better. I hate belted cases and would gladly buy one of the ruger-hornady rounds. Guy's that complain about more gun's and different rounds make me laugh. Hell you should be happy about it, I know I am.

gvnwst
December 29, 2008, 01:52 PM
Just get a .416 ridgby then. This ammo will cost more than any other ammo, trust me, and does not really give you much benifit, on BG rifles, you usually let the rifle down before cycling the bolt. So the shorter action does pratically nothing.

BruceB
December 29, 2008, 05:38 PM
The .416 Rigby in factory-ammo guise is quite a different puppy from the same round, handloaded. At least, it CAN be different.

My own .416 Rigby happens to be a Ruger #1H, and it will deliver a 300-grain X-bullet at 3000 fps, chronographed and consistently. However, it's flat-out miserable on the back end, and unless the elk start growing armor-plate, I don't need such ballistic performance. Same applies to the 400-grain bullets, which easily reach 2600+ in my rifle.

In a handloader's rifle, the .416 Rigby is a .416 Weatherby, or VERY close to it. This is logical, since Roy based his .416 on the Rigby case. Use caution as loads are increased, as always.

I also own a post-WWII .404 Jeffery on the standard '98 Mauser action, and it's not difficult to exceed 2400 fps with 400 grains in this one, either. (Factory .404-400s ran at 2150 fps.) Remington .375 Ultramag brass makes perfect .404 cases at a fraction of the cost of Norma- or RWS-made cases.

Whatever the differences among these various .416s (and .404s), it's safe to say that ALL will deliver more horsepower than logically "needed" in North America. So, what does "need" have to do with it???? If any shooter wants to mess with the .416 in any flavor, more power to him ...literally.

It happens that my two rifles fire rounds designed around 1910, but the fact that NEW cartridges are coming out which essentially duplicate the performance of 100 years ago simply means that those long-gone designers had things right. Current designs are fine-tuning the basic package of .416/400/2400, but oh my, does the "basic package" ever WORK.

As a dedicated bullet-caster, I must add a plug for that part of the hobby....the plus-.40 calibers offer wonderful performance with cast loads, and often deliver "accuracy loads" much easier than will smaller diameters. The RCBS 416-350 mould is readily available, and does great work in my .416. At 2000 fps, it's a viable 200-yard proposition for hunting. Earlier this year, I was shooting my cast hunting load of RCBS .416-350/2000 fps on the same day I was firing some .223 trial loads (with jacketed bullets) from an Interarms Mini-Mauser...and the .416 shot TEN-shot 100-yard groups SMALLER than the .223! That is, just under 7/8" for the .416, and right at 1" for the lightweight .223. I will admit that there was a slight difference in how the two rifles felt on the benchrest, however....

.38 Special
December 29, 2008, 08:37 PM
Bruce, I've been using the 416-350FN with your load of 34 grains of 2400 with Dacron filler. It is more accurate than I can hold with "dangerous game" sights and is giving me about 1650 FPS. It's also allowed me to enjoy a gun that I'd really started to dislike!

moosehunt
December 29, 2008, 10:01 PM
BruceB--How well does the .404 Jeff work in the 98 action? I would think that the action would be way too short. I want a .404 Jeff bad (of course, no need), and have been holding out for a Pre-64 M70 .375 H&H or .300 H&H action--obviously a pricy route. If I get a .375 at semi-reasonable cost, I will have the barrel rebored. I can't see how a .404 Jeff can work in a standard 98 action, but if you have positive results, I'm all ears! I, too, am from/in Nevada.

moooose102
December 29, 2008, 10:14 PM
i gotta agree with earlthegoat2. i am no fan of any of the "NEW AND IMPROVED" cartridges, that do a tiny bit better with slightly less, and a slightly shorter, blah,blah, blah. wake me up when they turn 4000 fps out of a 300rcm, or ssm with 50 grains of imr4831 and a 180 grain bullet. unless they can miraculously come up with a way to "supercharge" one of their latest and greatest", dont bother me with a shorter stroke, or 200 fps faster, or some other tidbit of who-hah that they make up to try to sell a rifle. in the real hunting world, 200 fps difference from the muzzle isnt going to mean squat to a deer or elk @ 150 yards.

moosehunt
December 29, 2008, 10:18 PM
A) It doesn't matter what it does so much, it's what people enjoy and have happiness with.
B) A lot of people hunt more than deer & elk.

We'll leave you asleep and yawning while we go off and have fun and enjoy the world!

tcrocker
December 29, 2008, 10:37 PM
I think I'll hold out for a 458 Ruger they got to have one on the drawing board. I love the 458. I have a Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 and a Interarms Mark X in 458 win mag. And yes I am a recoil freak.

.38 Special
December 30, 2008, 12:14 AM
BruceB--How well does the .404 Jeff work in the 98 action? I would think that the action would be way too short. I want a .404 Jeff bad (of course, no need), and have been holding out for a Pre-64 M70 .375 H&H or .300 H&H action--obviously a pricy route. If I get a .375 at semi-reasonable cost, I will have the barrel rebored. I can't see how a .404 Jeff can work in a standard 98 action, but if you have positive results, I'm all ears! I, too, am from/in Nevada.

Most modern gunsmiths will tell you that the standard action is neither strong enough nor large enough to accommodate cartridges like the .404 Jeffery and .416 Rigby. Back in the day, gunsmiths didn't "know" nearly so much, so went right ahead and did it. Harry Selby's famous .416 is one such gun, and it seems to have held up okay. In point of fact, I have never heard of a single instance of such guns coming apart, although if I owned one I would not load it beyond traditional specifications -- which, BTW, have always done the job.

As far as I know, the only significant modification required for the standard action to house these cartridges is a bit of relief on the forward part of the loading port so as to allow unhindered ejection.

Territory
December 30, 2008, 07:57 AM
I run 350 grain cast lead out of my Ruger No1 in 416 Rigby for boars and scrub bulls. For Buffalo I load Woodliegh or Barnes 350 grainers with 100 grains of reloader 19. A pair of recoil reducers and a quality recoil pad allow me shoot it off the bench without problems.

BruceB
December 30, 2008, 10:48 AM
The .404 I own was made by Cogswell and Harrison in London, England, and is a relatively-plain "working rifle". It wouldn't surprise me to find that this is a rifle built to serve rangers in one of the African game departments. The .404 was very commonly used by such organizations.

It certainly appears to be a military '98 action, although ALL markings have been removed. The thumb-slot for charger-loading is there, as well as the original 2-stage trigger and 180-degree wing safety on the shroud. It's still a pretty neat rifle, having three-leaf express sights with ivory inlay, a very nicely-figured piece of walnut, and a straight-taper 21" barrel.

Many '98s have been successfully used with long cartridges such as the .404 and .375 H&H. A new mag box is fitted, extended somewhat to the rear of the original box, as well as to the front. The bottom locking-lug abutment is shortened a bit to allow the extra length at the front. This appears to have no effect on the strength or functioning of the action. My rifle functions so smoothly that it's difficult to tell if there really was a cartridge in the action!

Even Browning used FN-made '98s for the .375 H&H for a while, adapted as above.

I have fired some very ambitious loads in the rifle, but since we are now out of the Wood Bison-hunting campaigns for which I bought it, it sees more cast-bullet loads than anything. My bison load was a Barnes Original 400-grain bullet with the .049"-thick tubing jacket. Running at 2400 fps, no bison ever complained about its effectiveness. The rifle only weighs a tad over eight pounds, so it's VERY lively in recoil.

The cast bullet is from the NEI 421-390 mould, and in my alloy it's a near-perfect duplicate of the factory-load bullet in both weight and shape. It casts at 398 grains, and can readily be pushed to 2150, which is the original factory speed for that weight.

C&H knew what they were about. They built a tough, light, powerful rifle with everything that's needed in the bush, and no frills to complicate things. The bolt handle is adapted to scopes, but the action was not drilled and tapped. I shot a BIG bull right through the heart from 200 yards using the 200-yard leaf sight....I think C&H really had a handle on what was needed.

shinz
December 30, 2008, 08:01 PM
As Bruce has said, Gogswell & Harrison as well as many other British gun makers built the 404 jeffery & 375H&H on std Mauser actions. The 404 was for many years the favoured rifle for many African Game depts. This equates to hundreds if not thousands of rifles, if there was a problem we'd for sure know of it by now.;)
On other forums I've read of good things for the Speer 350gr Magtip as a relatively budget .416 Cal bullet. reports from Africa have it a goiod for eveything other than Dangerous game, & by that I would take to mean Buffalo, Hippo etc which obviously need a premium bullet. Eles are obviously FMJ/Solid territory. The 350 Speer would probably do for the big cats too & everthing in North America.
Steve

moosehunt
December 31, 2008, 12:25 AM
Never questioned the M98 action as being strong enough, only a length thing. I'll have to try and find info on how to make the necessary alterations of a standard M98 action to work with the long .404 Jeff round. Know a source? Are there sources for the extended magazine? Was it 100% custom to extend the magazine, i.e., yes the machine work must be custom, but is there a mag available that one can use to measure to do the machine work, or all custom, mag included. I can't afford a C&H (if I could find one), but I likely can build it if I can find specs, info, etc.
Thanks!!

Territory
December 31, 2008, 06:38 AM
A mate of mine has a 404 like BruceB, but the recoil is more than I like, in fact makes my 416 Rigby a pussy to shoot. Still as Bruce says its a well thought out work gun.

Territory
December 31, 2008, 06:41 AM
A mate of mine has a 404 like BruceB, but the recoil is more than I like, in fact makes my 416 Rigby a pussy to shoot. Still as Bruce says its a well thought out work gun.

Tang419
January 4, 2009, 04:19 PM
I think I'll hold out for a 458 Ruger they got to have one on the drawing board. I love the 458. I have a Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 and a Interarms Mark X in 458 win mag. And yes I am a recoil freak.

Now that would be a fun one !

.38 Special
January 4, 2009, 04:41 PM
The .404 fires the same bullet weight nearly 300 FPS slower than the Rigby, assuming factory ballistics. Perhaps the stock design on your mate's rifle does not suit you.

3sixbits
January 12, 2009, 04:34 PM
I just came to the conclusion that the .416 Ruger will be the answer to a mistake I made with a barrel blank I ordered from Lilja. I guess my head was up my wazoo the day I order this blank in a #4 contour. I have been through the, why, why, why with this blank every time I pick it up. Man is this thing ever light weight for caliber. I don't even remember what plans I had for a .416? I asked for suggestions on another forum and the response was the .416 Ruger. Not a bad idea, as there will be no problems getting brass.

This will definitely need one of Harrell's brakes, maybe some weight in the butt stock. Most importantly of all, a buyer at a gunshow.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
January 12, 2009, 05:21 PM
Retinas? We don't need no stinkin retinas!

If it says Ruger I avoid it like the plague, gun or cartridge. But that's just me. :)

H&Hhunter
February 12, 2009, 03:41 PM
The .404 fires the same bullet weight nearly 300 FPS slower than the Rigby, assuming factory ballistics. Perhaps the stock design on your mate's rifle does not suit you.

This both correct and incorrect. The original .404 Jeffery Loads were a 400 gr bullet @ 2150 FPS. However the later RWS loads that came out in the late 20's were a 400 gr bullet @ 2300FPS which is darn near the same power level as a factory .416 Rigby load.

In a modern action it is possible to load a .404 Jeffery to over 2500 fps with a 400 gr bullet. I load mine to 2300 fps. There is nothing on the planet including mature bull elephant that this load with proper bullet won't put on the ground post haste. I find the .404 very comfortable to shoot in fact I think it is a fantastic DG choice for ladies.

Here is the great advantage to the .416 Ruger. I don't really care about the action length or the shorter powder column. But here are two things that will sell the living crap out of the .416 Ruger.
1. It is a ready to go out of the box DG rifle for under $1000.00 USD. My guess is that you'll start seeing young PH's carrying these things pretty soon. It is the the most bang for the buck out there.

2. Nobody and I mean nobody has built a larger than .375 diameter Alaska style stainless synthetic factory gun ever. I can't think of a better out of the box carry gun for brown bear guides and hunters in coastal AK than the .416 Ruger Alaskan. It simply doesn't exist.

And if you think there isn't a market niche for this type of rifle just try and find your self a stainless M-70 in .375H&H. With rare exception every single one was snatched up within days of USRAC going out of business. They are basically impossible to find now days.

I think the .416 Ruger is a fantastic idea. And I am not a gee wizz new cartridge kind of a guy.

I think within 5 years they will be common in Africa and will be everywhere in Alaska.

Fburgtx
February 12, 2009, 03:55 PM
Seems like this same discussion came up regarding the .375 Ruger.

The main benefit is.......COST!!!!!!

The 375 H&H and the 416 Rigby use (in most cases) MAGNUM actions.
The 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger use Standard length actions.

I'm talking commercial rifles here, not customs.

Therefore, you can get the rifle for $800-$1000, instead of $1600-$2000.

(I know, I know. You can get a CZ 550 for $900)

Cost may not mean much for someone who has the money to go to Africa. However, it might mean something to folks who live in Alaska and Canada and just want to own something with more oomph.

If we want to talk useless, lets discuss the 30TC.................

H&Hhunter
February 12, 2009, 07:34 PM
Nobody and I mean nobody has built a larger than .375 diameter Alaska style stainless synthetic factory gun ever.

OK OK never say never....:D I have just been kindly informed that Winchester did in fact make a stainless version of the .416 Remington for a short time. So sue me!;)

JimmAr
February 12, 2009, 08:16 PM
If anyone wish to go to Africa I wouldnt mind taking one of weatherby's cartridges.. while overpowered and worthlessly expensive, which only fit a nostalgic persona(I have to have it) in North America(excluding bears) they are held in pretty high regard for ballistic performance in African game and when your life's on the line ill take the super charged cartridge.

As for these "up and coming" cartridges based off old ones which promise similar ballistics.. whats the point..? Brass will be more expensive as well as dies ect.. your really going the extra lengths for no reason whatsoever..

H&Hhunter
February 13, 2009, 12:41 AM
Weatherby's are not in common usage in Africa. In fact most PH's despise Weatherby rifles and don't have much good to say about the cartridges either.

In fact I don't think I've ever seen a Weatherby cartridge or rifle in an African hunting camp. While of course the odd Weatherby gets into Africa form time to time they are pretty rare.

JimmAr
February 13, 2009, 11:16 AM
Weatherby's are not in common usage in Africa. In fact most PH's despise Weatherby rifles and don't have much good to say about the cartridges either.

In fact I don't think I've ever seen a Weatherby cartridge or rifle in an African hunting camp. While of course the odd Weatherby gets into Africa form time to time they are pretty rare.

H&Hhunter,

Mainly what I was insinuating is you could use a 378 Weatherby for all your African game hunting purposes.. while being able to reach out and touch just about anything while having that same energy at 200 yards that 416 has at the muzzle, very versatile cartridges with hunting bullets offering high BC.

As for the PH's they are essentially professional trackers..carry one rifle and only are there aside from tracking if things get out of hand.. and when your tracking a wounded lion into thick bush wheres theres laws against baiting them to begin with.. theres usually 3-4 PH's with rifles.

As for the Weatherby cartridges never to be seen on African soil their sure is alot of ballistic twins, seeing how the boys at accuratereloading duplicating the 375ultra/378 Weatherby's performance in their all purpose 375-404 Jeffery. That rifle alone built off a dakota 76 action has taken over 160+ African game animals including elephants and cape buffalo essentially another one of those supercharged cartridges..sometimes at long distances as well, dont take my word for it though.. here is a zebra out to 300 yards.

Zebra (http://www.accuratereloading.com/w-zebra-08.wmv)

Above all else.. shot placement is key..while a big benefit is also being a good distance away from dangerous game.

newdude
February 13, 2009, 11:42 AM
If it says Ruger I avoid it like the plague, gun or cartridge. But that's just me.
I second this. Call me odd....

freakshow10mm
February 13, 2009, 11:59 AM
The few PHs I've spoken with are not fans of hyper velocity cartridges. In fact they told me anything that goes faster than 2500fps is not a rifle they trust unless it's the .375 Holland or the 9.3x62mm. Those are the two exceptions.

Float Pilot
February 13, 2009, 01:27 PM
I have a M98 large ring action I was going to rebarrel to 416 Taylor...
The New Ruger / Hornady cartdrige has me holding up... The brass may be less expensive in the long run...

H&Hhunter
February 13, 2009, 02:16 PM
As for the PH's they are essentially professional trackers..carry one rifle and only are there aside from tracking if things get out of hand.. and when your tracking a wounded lion into thick bush wheres theres laws against baiting them to begin with.. theres usually 3-4 PH's with rifles.

As for the Weatherby cartridges never to be seen on African soil their sure is alot of ballistic twins, seeing how the boys at accuratereloading duplicating the 375ultra/378 Weatherby's performance in their all purpose 375-404 Jeffery. That rifle alone built off a dakota 76 action has taken over 160+ African game animals including elephants and cape buffalo essentially another one of those supercharged cartridges..sometimes at long distances as well, dont take my word for it though.. here is a zebra out to 300 yards.


Jimm,

You must be referring to Saeed Al Maktoum he is the only guy I am aware of who uses a 375-404 built on a Dakota M-76 action. And yes he has killed multiple hundreds of head of dangerous game with it.

Now as far as PH's being trackers. That is hardly ever the case. The PH is just that a professional hunter who is responsible for the hunt, the safety of his clients and the proper and ethical conduct of the hunt. He is in no way a "professional tracker" They hire professional native trackers do the tracking the PH and the client follow trackers until the target animal is spotted . The PH then takes the hunter into position for a shot.

If the client wounds the animal the trackers are brought back in and they track while the PH and the client keep their eyes off the ground looking for the animal and watching for a charge.

I've been involved in several wounded DG follow ups and we've never been in a position to call in "3 or 4" armed PH's to help out. In fact the thought is that anymore than two guns is too damn many on a follow up. And I agree with that 100%.



I just watched the Zebra video. That is Saeed's rifle the guy shooting it is Named Walter. That was a lousy shot by the way it was to far back. Walter is infamous for his lousy shooting on game. Walter loves to accompany Saeed on his various adventures and has just recently started shooting game or hitting game I should say. What indication do have that the zebra was 300 yards away did I miss something , was it in the title of the video? And even if it was I've shot big game further than that with just a standard old .375H&H I don't get what that video is supposed to show in regards to the capability of a .375-404, which by the way is identical in almost every way to a .375 RUM.

Now if you get on www.accuratereloading.com and go to the video section there are some impressive long range shots on buffalo with that rifle.

H&Hhunter
February 13, 2009, 03:14 PM
Jimm.

This video really shows what that 404-375 is capable of. Saeed uses a custom bullet he calls the Walterhog. It is a monolithic square nosed bullet. He makes then him self or I should say Walter makes them for him. This buffalo was shot at 100 yards quartering away check out the exit wound with the lung froth on the off shoulder. This is some awesome penetration!

http://www.accuratereloading.com/video/buf49.mpg

JimmAr
February 13, 2009, 04:28 PM
Jimm,

You must be referring to Saeed Al Maktoum he is the only guy I am aware of who uses a 375-404 built on a Dakota M-76 action. And yes he has killed multiple hundreds of head of dangerous game with it.

Now as far as PH's being trackers. That is hardly ever the case. The PH is just that a professional hunter who is responsible for the hunt, the safety of his clients and the proper and ethical conduct of the hunt. He is in no way a "professional tracker" They hire professional native trackers do the tracking the PH and the client follow trackers until the target animal is spotted . The PH then takes the hunter into position for a shot.

If the client wounds the animal the trackers are brought back in they track while the PH and the client keep there eyes up off the ground looking for the animal and watching for a charge.

I've been involved in several wounded DG follow ups and we've never been in a position to call in "3 or 4" armed PH's to help out. In fact the thought is that anymore than two guns is too damn many on a follow up. And I agree with that 100%.



I just watched the Zebra video. That is Saeed's rifle the guy shooting it is Named Walter. That was lousy shot by the way it was to far back. Walter is infamous for his lousy shooting on game. But what indication do have that the zebra was 300 yards away? And even if it was I've shot game further than that with just a standard old .375H&H I don't get what that video is supposed to show in regards to a .375-404, which by the way is identical in almost every way to a .375 RUM.

Now if you get on www.accuratereloading.com and go to the video section there are some impressive long range shots on buffalo with that rifle.

Thanks for responding.

Agreed that Ph's personal responsibility/safety of the group.

They actually mentioned in the end of the video it was 270ish.. towards the end.. Saeed has the camera its pretty low I had to crank my speakers up to hear it..

There was a hunt in Botswana lead by Garth Robinson where they did a follow up on a lion where they had 3-4 PH's with rifles..I have not been to Africa yet..so ill shut my trap :) however can agree the number seemed to much.. theres actually a video of it
here.. (http://www.versuscountry.com/itemdetail.aspx?id=2479&sectionType=2)

Ive seen most of the videos however the video with "Walters" shooting was in my eyes a picture prefect representation of what the rifle was capable of in the hands of someone other then Saeed himself. Saeed on the forums is held in high regard for his hunting accuracy but that rifle he built is also a fantastic piece cartridge and all.

JimmAr
February 13, 2009, 04:39 PM
Jimm.

This video really shows what that 404-375 is capable of. Saeed uses a custom bullet he calls the Walterhog. It is a monolithic square nosed bullet. He makes then him self or I should say Walter makes them for him. This buffalo was shot at 100 yards quartering away check out the exit wound with the lung froth on the off shoulder. This is some awesome penetration!

Thanks for that..

You do know there is a section for their 2008 hunts.. that was a sticky in the African game hunting forum this where I pulled the zebra video, interesting he was using custom bullets awhile back.. he used barnes 300gr triple X in the 2008 hunt.. seemed to have excellent success..

Anyway not to get an ass chewing from being too off topic..:D the 416 ruger at the moment is one of the more expensive 416.. @ 50.00 a die set and 42.00 for 20 brass.. 416 remington is 15.xx for 20 brass... and 30 a die set..

shinz
February 14, 2009, 06:10 AM
Float Pilot, build your Taylor, it will still be easier to feed than the Ruger for some time yet. Informed rumour has it that Norma will shortly legitimise it in the African PH series of cartridges, & if you get sick of it, a 416 Ruger reamer will clean up a Tyalor chamber with no other alteration necessary.
Steve

H&Hhunter
February 15, 2009, 12:23 AM
he used barnes 300gr triple X in the 2008 hunt.. seemed to have excellent success..

Jimm,

I also used 300GR TSX for my 2008 hunt. I had a one shot kill on a gnarly old dagga boy. That was out of a lowly old .375H&H. I'd say excellent results as well.

Zim 2008

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/buff20084.jpg

Albert A Rasch
February 20, 2009, 06:12 PM
Hello Fellows,

Having fired a few rounds through the Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan in 416 RCM, I can say that I was pretty darn pleased with the feel and fit. I found the recoil much less than expected, due to a combination of several factors. The ballistics are impressive, taking into consideration what the firearm is supposed to do. It's a short range stomper. I fired it at 100 yards, and I was very pleased with the accuracy.

I must agree with H&H Hunter, that cost, cartridge, and capability will make it a niche winner.

In talking with one of the Ruger VPs of Operations at the SHOT Show, part of the reason for developing new cartridges is that the cost of royalties is now so expensive, that it is cheaper over time to create a new cartridge!

I did a small review of the Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com/2009/01/range-review-416-ruger-and-hawkeye.html) in 416 RCM after the SHOT Show. I give my impressions on it, which are very favorable.

Thank You and Regards,
Albert A Rasch,
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com/)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
February 20, 2009, 06:58 PM
I for one am glad CZ never came out with a .375 or larger with a cheap plastic stock. Whoever wants them can take them. If you take care of a gun reasonably at all, a blued/wood one can last forever, even in the worst climates, IMO.

Flatbush Harry
February 20, 2009, 07:35 PM
A principal advantage of at least the .375 Ruger is that it can be fired from a $1,000 long action rifle rather than a $2-3,000 .375 H&H Magnum length action rifle. That it can do so and match ballistics of a round developed in 1912 is a plus. If I find myself planning another trip to Alaska, I'll get one as I hope I never have to face down a bear but if I do, I'd druther have a .375 rifle than a .44 Magnum revolver or one of its big brothers in 460 or 500.

No argument that the .375 Ruger or .416 Ruger does nothing that the .375H&H or .416 Rigby does...it's the rifle that's the difference.

:)

Harry

PS-I've fired 3 rounds from a .458 Win Mag, found it pretty unpleasant and hope never to need one of those cannons again

H

Albert A Rasch
February 20, 2009, 11:39 PM
Dr W,

I don't know that I would characterize the Hogue Overmold as a cheap stock. Compared to a H&H Round Action Sidelock with selected walnut, polished and oiled finished, perhaps it might give that impression. But none the less it is a very good quality piece of engineering. It may lack the finesse and sheer beauty of the H&H, but it has its own lovable personality! And besides, how many of us can afford the round action at $65500?

But I don't disagree with you on the blued and wood portion. Proper care will keep just about anything working right and looking good.

Regards,
Albert A Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com/)

TZieli22
March 15, 2009, 02:28 PM
I just became a member of Highroad in doing some research on 416 Ruger. This has been an interesting thread to read and I thought I would just add my view. Since I live in Alaska and already do own many of the big boars mentioned here, I guess I'll admit that I have an addiction to recoil like others, but what has my interest the most about this new caliber is not that it's a wildcat, it's beltless, or itís just another gun... It's because itís weather proof, being stainless, synthetic stock, itís a short gun, and itís under $1000. Granted, if we take care of our blued firearms, they do work fine and will last lifetimes.

Having a 375 H&H, a 338 win mag, and a 45/70 SS Marlin guide gun as my big bores, I have to tell you the one I have been hunting with the most in the last 5 years has been my 45/70. Two years ago when my hunting buddy called me and asked that I back him up in trailing a brown bear he shot with his bow, I said sure, and grabbed my 45/70 and off we went. As we trailed the bear I started to wonder, is my 45/70 enough to stop a pissed off - wounded brown bear in the brush at 10 to 15 yards? :eek: Lucky for us, his arrow did the trick and we found him dead about 70yrds into it.

But I started looking for something that would do just what I was wanting then, a gun powerful enough to stop a charging brown bear in a short, weatherproof big bore. Low and behold, the 416 Ruger.

I had my mind made up in getting the Ruger 458 Lott but itís blued, about $2000 and longer than I would like not to mention it does kick like a mule. But now the 416 Ruger comes out so I am going to get it, but am not in too much of a hurry yet because you canít get the bullets for them yet since Hornady has recalled them. But the dealers now are starting to get them in regularly and they are being swept up as quickly as they show upÖ just no ammo yet.

So my question to you all is, have you bought one yet and better yet, shot it? If so, what do you think?

Tony

H&Hhunter
March 15, 2009, 06:19 PM
Dr. Tad

I for one am glad CZ never came out with a .375 or larger with a cheap plastic stock.

Bummer for you dude!:D


http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=83

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 15, 2009, 06:56 PM
Hey, Kevlar/fiberglass is a different story from "cheap plastic"! :)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 15, 2009, 07:28 PM
Also, does anyone else find it odd that the .416 IS offered in the Hawkeye "Alaskan" model, in addition to the .375, but the .416 is NOT offered in the Hawkeye "African" model - only the .375 is??

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAFamily?type=Rifle&subtype=Bolt%20Action&famlst=60&variation=77/17%C2%AE

H&Hhunter
March 15, 2009, 09:32 PM
Also, does anyone else find it odd that the .416 IS offered in the Hawkeye "Alaskan" model, in addition to the .375, but the .416 is NOT offered in the Hawkeye "African" model - only the .375 is??


I talked to a guy at Ruger about that. The .416 Ruger is splitting wood stocks faster than a 12LB maul. They are trying to figure out how to make the stocks stick together and keep the price reasonable too.

They might well have to go with a forward recoil lug and some glass bedding and that is what they are trying to avoid.

Welding Rod
October 25, 2009, 06:17 PM
I have a 416 Ruger coming. Should be here early next week.

I am buying it due to the Ruger Alaskan rifle it is being sold for:

Standard length action
20" barrel (should be floated as the 375 Alaskan floats)
Excellent fixed sights
Integral Ruger scope mounting if I want to use it
Stainless
About 7 3/4 pounds
Controlled feed
Beefy extractor
Heavy duty floor plate

$788 bucks ordered through my local dealer.

Solid and expanding Hornady ammo in stock at Midway for $59

$45 bucks for 50 pieces of Hornady brass (also in stock)

I have a .375 Ruger Alaskan already. The rifle ergonomics are really sweet.... short, light, and well balanced. The shape and size of the forearm and grip, the stock texture, and the excellent recoil pad combine to make shooting the 375 Ruger a piece of cake for a big bore.

Less percieved recoil than my 10 pound Ruger Magnum in 375 H&H, and way nicer to carry and hold on to.

I think they did a very good job with the 375 Ruger Alaskan package.

It looks like the 416 should be a winner too.

If you enjoyed reading about ".416 Ruger" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!