[lefteyedom]

Because of loophole in some local gun laws a black powered pistol would not be classified as a firearm. Based solely on this loophole what would be a good or very good black powder pistol to choose to carry?
(For the record I do have a CCW:evil:)

[Coyote3855]

New Model Remington .44 with 5.5 " barrel.

[nalioth]

You need to check your loophole. Just because it's not a legal firearm doesn't mean it won't be a legal 'concealed weapon'.

[Macmac]

nothing in BP makes for a good carry gun.. Just don't.

[shimniok]

That's sort of like asking what is the best sword for personal defense. :D

Michael

[dwave]

A sword is still better than your fists... or a knife if that is what the BG has....

[John Wayne]

I have never heard of black powder guns not being classified as firearms. They are classified as antique or replica firearms and are thus subject to different laws, but they are still firearms.

I would assume, however that it's still fine to carry as long as you have a CCW. Since you said blackpowder, not cap and ball, a Colt SAA would work nicely. Or a LeMat :D

[mykeal]

Because of loophole in some local gun laws a black powered pistol would not be classified as a firearm. Based solely on this loophole what would be a good or very good black powder pistol to choose to carry?
(For the record I do have a CCW)

This makes no sense. If one has a CCW, or CPL, why would one need or care about a 'loophole' in a local law?

[armoredman]

Blackpowder firearms are not classified as firearms strictly for sale purposes in Federal law, which is why you may mail order them, in free states. I have yet to see any state law that doesn't classify them as firearms. If you load up an 1858 Remington Sheriff model and slap it in a Tombstone Doc Holiday shoulder holster under your duster, without a permit, I imagine that Johnny Law will have some interesting words for you if you are caught, probably some will include the phrase..."You are under arrest"...
Unless you live in Vermont or Alaska, of course.
Also, prohibited possessors also may not possess black powder firearms, either. I heard THAT old saw about every six months, figure I'll get it out of the way now.

[lefteyedom]

OK folks let me ask it this way. What currently made "cap and ball" blackpowder pistol would be able to full fill the role of a CCW pistol?

Gentleman, I granted you the silliness of the legal grounds of my question.

The Question was not about the wisdom of someone trying to use the legal argument.

The question was directed to wards weaponry not the law.

I have paid enough legal bills to know how fickle the "letter of the law" can be.

[barneyrw]

<<"What currently made "cap and ball" blackpowder pistol would be able to full fill the role of a CCW pistol?">>

If you're serious about CCW, there are many, many better choices than a Cap and Ball revolver. But if you are hell bent on carrying one, the Colt 1862 Pocket Police or 1862 Pocket Navy, both in .36 caliber, were made for pocket or concealed carry by Sam Colt himself, and also the Colt 1849 Pocket Pistol in .31 caliber. All are 5 shot cap and ball revolvers. The 1849 is the smallest with a 4" barrel, the 1862's more commonly have a 5 1/2" barrel. The frames are the same size on all three. Be careful with the Italian copies as they sometimes call them a pocket model but in fact some are just 1851 Navy's with a shorter barrel.The frames on the Colt Pocket Models are quite a bit smaller than the other Colt models. The 2nd and 3rd Generation Colts are still fairly inexpensive if you watch GunBroker or AuctionArms. A NIB 2nd Generation Colt 1862 Pocket Police, unfired with box and papers just went 3 days ago for $399. I considered buying it except I already have one. Anyway good luck on whatever you decide.

[RyanM]

Based solely on this loophole

Unfortunately, there is no loophole. I've actually researched that some, just in case of the unfortunate event that a search for a job may take me outside of the USA, and all the anti-CCW states have laws which state that a BP arm is a "firearm" for the purpose of concealed carry.

[Voodoochile]

This is my 2 cents on this.

If you have a CCW & stay within the law of your licence, why would you carry a C&B revolver for self defence concealed when you obviously would have access to a more modern & possibly more reliable firearm?

Now granted some one like me who have used these types of firearms for over 30 years & learned a thing or two in making them as reliable as humanly possible, & they are quite potent within resonable ranges but to defend one self with this type of weapon against 2 legged possibly drug crazzed critters unless there is no other weapon available to you is kinda crazy.
I'll take one of my C&B revolvers out onto the club property to check traps & what not & if I had to use it I know it'll go BOOM 5 times but mostly it's a 4 legged creature I would have to use it on.

Now if you want a good C&B Revolver to cary Concealed, the ones mentioned earlier, "Colt 1862 Pocket Police or 1862 Pocket Navy, both in .36 caliber" are fine choices & possibly a copy of the Remington 1863 Pocket in .31 caliber but if you want something with a little more punch then the Pietta or Uberti 1858 Remington NMA with the 5.5" barrel would be my choice but again that'd be your choice & I would suggest looking into my posting Keeping a Cap & Ball Revolver loaded. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=401991) for some info on keeping any of these fine revolvers as reliable as possible.

[mykeal]

The 1862 Pocket Colts have the best combination of small frame size and larger (.36) caliber. The .31 cal Colts and Remingtons are not bad but the smaller caliber makes them less desirable. I also like the first gun mentioned, the short barrel Remington in .44, but the large frame is a problem.

Having answered the question with my opinion, I'll also add that none of the above can compare with my S&W Model 60 .357 Magnum for self defense. It's a fool's game.

[Tomahawk674]

Here's a tangent:

I do NOT CCW, but I do have a hypothetical question:

There's a Bersa .380 and a 1861 Navy in the home. My groups at 12 yards with the .380 are very wide, even though I practice with it every weekend. But the groups with the BP are very very accurate by comparison.

You hear bump in the night, which one do you go check it out with?

PS: I'd go with the Bersa, due to simple rate of fire and lack of smoke. Also, another family member in the home has a .45, so not much to worry about.

[Voodoochile]

Here's a tangent:

I do NOT CCW, but I do have a hypothetical question:

There's a Bersa .380 and a 1861 Navy in the home. My groups at 12 yards with the .380 are very wide, even though I practice with it every weekend. But the groups with the BP are very very accurate by comparison.

You hear bump in the night, which one do you go check it out with?

PS: I'd go with the Bersa, due to simple rate of fire and lack of smoke. Also, another family member in the home has a .45, so not much to worry about.

Well me, I have 2 .45ACP's a .22WMR & 4 .44 cal. C&B Revolvers "2 of which may be loaded at the moment" & I practice with each enough to know that I &/or my wife could hit what we were aiming at so to me it would be which piece was the quickest to come to bear.

Not to say that I would only use my .45 but I feel confident in my shooting & what my .44 C&B's can do to get the job done if it ever come to that.

[madcratebuilder]

I have actually carried a c&b before, just for the heck of it. I wouldn't make it a habit. A shoulder rig well carry most. I have a baby Colt that is a great pocket revolver.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/baby1.jpg

[Macmac]

I am not trying to be a prick, but there is NO cap and ball gun worthy of carry as in ccw today.. NONE. CCW and BP isn't a home defence weapon choice, and no one who can own a gun in the home needs a ccw permit period.

So if some mug who deserves to be shot and stopped in your home, I suppose use what ever suits you so long as a jury won't consider it cruel and unusal, which any sheeple jury is probably going to convict anyone foolish enough to use a BP pistol, because there is no doubt the jury will find the weapon IS cruel and unusal.

As a carry gun, this thinking is totally of the wall. First off that jury will have the same findings as above, and if your life is really at threat, then you are way under gunned.

You can only safely carry 5 rounds with the hammer down on an empty, and the bad guy is going to be using a semi auto gun.

My head would be Is it going to go bang if I need it too. Did a cap just fall off? Did that bead of sweat get on the caps? Is the grease leaking on my shirt? Can anyone see tha stain? Do they know I am a fool packing a BP heater? Is belly button lint going to jam the action. Oh crap it's raining so I can't go out. Oh crap I just got a flat in the rain. Oh crap I just put the gun on the seat and the nice police man is giving me a queer look.

Oh this is bad the nice policeman just shot himself in the act of confiscating my gun because he didn't know a thing about it!

If you live in New York City and pull this stunt, it is illegal to be in possesion of the weapon and have on hand powder and ball....

About the only thing you can do with a cp and ball pistol unde terms of selfdefence is shoot some alley cat and even then the jury will convict you of cruelty.

[lefteyedom]

One more time for the record......

This was a question about weaponry... not law////

I carry for the record a Frankenstein 45acp. Essex frame, Remington Rand slide, all parts are Wilson, McCormick. It is a big full size weapon than is easy to shoot under stress.
I would carry more if the Job I had did not take me across three states every day. MY CCW is only good in ONE, Wyoming. Then there is the whole CDL HAZMAT firearm issue.

SO MY PERSONAL CCW is a Roofing Hammer that I use as a tire thumper and 5th wheel puller. It rides on the floor of my cab next to my left foot 6 days a week.

Thanks for the idea on the 1862 Pocket Colts

[6_gunner]

I once saw a 5" barrel Colt 1860 which had been modified by the additon of a birdshead grip from a SAA. Made for a pretty compact package compared to a full sized 1860. It also looked pretty danged cool! I wouldn't feel defenseless carrying something like that; although, of course, it wouldn't be my first choice.


Just remember: once you load it, it's legally considered a firearm. If it's charged with powder and ball but not capped, it's not considered loaded (I believe). So, you could keep it "loaded," but not capped and still, theoretically be legal.

[Voodoochile]

I am not trying to be a prick, but there is NO cap and ball gun worthy of carry as in ccw today.. NONE. CCW and BP isn't a home defence weapon choice, and no one who can own a gun in the home needs a ccw permit period.

So if some mug who deserves to be shot and stopped in your home, I suppose use what ever suits you so long as a jury won't consider it cruel and unusal, which any sheeple jury is probably going to convict anyone foolish enough to use a BP pistol, because there is no doubt the jury will find the weapon IS cruel and unusal.

You're right & I agree that if you can get a CCW you should be using a more modern weapon, but I dissagree with you in the HD scenerio.
You can shoot a BG in your house with even a single barrel shotgun but if you by chance replaced the shell in that shotgun you can be tried guilty of premeditation.
You can shoot a BG in your house with a .45ACP but can be tried guilty of Murder in certain situations.


As a carry gun, this thinking is totally of the wall. First off that jury will have the same findings as above, and if your life is really at threat, then you are way under gunned.

You can only safely carry 5 rounds with the hammer down on an empty, and the bad guy is going to be using a semi auto gun.


Very true but the same can be said to a person that has a modern firearm too.

Under gunned?
If you are referring to just 5 shots, then I guess you are right conciddering that most modern .357 Magnum revolvers are only 6 shots or even my M1911A1 .45ACP has 7 shots compared to maybe a Glock 9mm capable of 17 shots, then you have it there...
Power wise, maybe, a .44 caliber C&B Revolver can be loaded to a punch that would rival .38 Spcecials & possibly close to a .45ACP..
Sights, deffinitly.


My head would be Is it going to go bang if I need it too. Did a cap just fall off? Did that bead of sweat get on the caps? Is the grease leaking on my shirt? Can anyone see tha stain? Do they know I am a fool packing a BP heater? Is belly button lint going to jam the action. Oh crap it's raining so I can't go out. Oh crap I just got a flat in the rain. Oh crap I just put the gun on the seat and the nice police man is giving me a queer look.

Oh this is bad the nice policeman just shot himself in the act of confiscating my gun because he didn't know a thing about it!


You may have something there but if loaded properly a C&B revolver can be just as reliable as any modern center fire handgun & I have had factory ammo that did not fire even after a second hit on the primer.

As far as a police officer shooting him/her self while confiscating your firearm, then that would a officer that need some basic training about muzzle control.

I'm not trying to be a jerk but in seeing your post made me think of some situations that you pointed out that went bad for the defender when they used a firearm to defend themselves, & the comment about reliability, I've been able to keep my C&B revolvers loaded for up to a year & even had one in the rain yet it still fired reliably & accurately but like I said, I agree if you have a CCW or just a firearm in the home then you should be using a modern firearm but these C&B revolvers can be reliade apaun as an alternative weapon.

[batjka]

As far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with having a C&B revolver for home defense of having one in the truck. It will do the job intended, although the cleanup might be a pain afterwards.

If you will only have it in the truck why not consider a .44 Remington with a conversion cylinder? You can have a revolver unloaded and a loaded .45 cylinder separate. Neither is a firearm so you should be fine going across state lines. Should a need arise you can quickly switch the cylinders and be ready for action. At that point the weapon might not be legal without a permit, but if you have to draw I doubt the legality will matter more than your life.

Just my opinion on the legal issues. I think I'm right, though.

[mgregg85]

I do believe that in michigan, once a black powder weapon is loaded, it is legally considered a gun.

Regardless, in this state black powder pistols are still subject to the CCW laws.
2. I have a replica of an antique pistol. Is it necessary that this pistol be registered in Michigan? Is it necessary that I obtain a Michigan Concealed Pistols License?

MCL 28.429 No, antique pistols made before 1898 and replicas of antiques that use black powder, matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system do not need to be registered. The pistol is still subject to all concealed pistol licensing laws.

Just a cautionary note for anyone w/out a CCW who may be considering this.

Also, in Wyoming, I think a cap and ball handgun would be considered a gun if you have the conversion cylinder because of this statute.
(iii) A muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading
2 shotgun or muzzle loading pistol which is designed to use
3 black powder, or a black powder substitute, if it cannot
4 use fixed ammunition. Notwithstanding any provision of
5 this paragraph, any weapon which incorporates a firearm
6 frame or receiver which can be readily converted to fire
7 fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock
8 or any combination thereof is within the meaning of
9 "firearm" as used in this section.

[Coyote3855]

Lefteyedom: You must be leaving Wyoming through Nebraska. All the other bordering states honor Wyoming CCW permits.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/maps/wyoming_map.gif

[ratcollector]

I've shot thousands of rounds in my cap-n-ball pistols, colt, remington, ect. if I had to stake my life on a cnb gun it would be the ruger old army. I've shot cowboy action meets with 12 stages and ran the gun as fast as I can (draw, fire and hit 10 shots in under 5 sec's) the rugers never fail to go. I run a heafty load (40 grains). the absolut must is to use remington primers on no matter what pistol type. cci, swiss and the others just are't reliable. colt replicas have the best point and shoot but bad habit of geting a cap inside and jaming, remmy work good for a few shots but foul out fast and the front sight is east to get hung up on holsters. Ruger old army with the short barrel and many of the black hawk grips ect will work. don't forget these are going to be single action, which isn't a 1st choise even with smokeless revolvers

[Macmac]

Voodoochile, I don't disagree with you at all really. I have 4 flinters that go boom every time, and when hunting I leave them loaded as is, for the season if i don't get shots.
A .75 Bess, .62 Nor'West Gun, .62 pistol I built from nearly scratch, and a sweet like .40 Kentucky. None of these found in stores..

I have 2 cap and ball, ROA, and a EMF 1970's 1860 Colt Army in .44.
Yes 5 rnds in these cap and ball only for me.. Hammer on the empty for me. No half cock notches either.

So I understand you. I know better than to fire bp off at the end of a day, unless I fired the gun, and loaded it again and must clean it. Like you my charges can last a year or untill I fire them and always they go boom.

I missed entirely the fact this isn't based on law, but then I don't understand since a cww is all based on law. Ok so no law.. no one cares that laws tie all this as one to ccw.

STILL the bad guy is likey to be armed with more than a wheel gun, and he will have magazines and can reload real fast, A lot faster than I can load any BP Gun no matter how fast I can go, and I can go pretty fast. Maybe 7 shots a minute in the Nor Wes gun and faster if I must with no patch. In order to do that I need paper catridges..

More and more the bad guy has a 30 rnd mag.. Still want the BP gun?

More and more, oh I can't go there... Hell yes i can, the jury wants to hear a familar word when it comes to a round.

So if you shot a bad guy with Joe Schmoes rocket wiz lightning bolt glow in the dark 12 ga round you are busted! Why because it isn't the same or close to the same as what police use.

About the police. I got stopped in Mass in transit and i was still dressed in 'SKINS' coming home to NH from an event in PA. On modern guns, not even Mass and NY can over ride Fedral law and i am free as a bird to go from any place with a modern gun to a event and back to a legal place.

I don't know it, but I figure this applies to BP guns as well. My .62 cal flinter was on the seat UNLOADED in plain sight, and my Nor West Gun was in the pick up racks in plain sight. Next to the pistol was a 15.5 inch 1/4 thick real honest to goodness old antique BOWIE.

I stopped off I-91 and Rt 2 where ever that is, in Mass, on my way home. I got food and water for my horse and the restaraunt was delited to have me spend money, and more than delited to give me 2 pails of water for the horse.

When I was done, I pulled out of their private parking lot and didn't get the trailer straight, heading back to I-91 north, and was BUSTED.

The cop all but chit himself when he saw the cab, but he somehow knew how I was dressed. He had me spread on the hood and entered the cab with out even asking, and then began to to meddle with the pistol trying to open it at the breech. He wouldn't hear one word, and the next thing he did was place the bore muzzel end first to his EYE!!!! Making a real long story shorter, I demanded to be let go or arrested after 45 minutes of being detained. More than several times he was so fixated on finding and discovering some reason to make his bust stick that I could have shot him with his own Glock, had I any mind to do so. I had been on the road 12 hours and had 5 more to go, so I finally just got sick of him and made my demands. Arrest, Badge Number, and SPCA.

This particular cop had no bee's wax and probably around even his Glock!

Had he shot himself thru the head with that .62..... :what:

BTW I do have NH version of CCW, and I have several guns for that job..

In the case of this thread.. well I could see no real problem with either of my cap and ball guns stopping a man.. Would I even consider it when I have better guns suited to the task? NO way...

I guess if some how all modern brass cat'ridge guns got the grinder by the Feds, but the Feds still left BP guns for us to use, then I wouldn't have much choice.. I am aware that I can trust all my BP Guns. So then if this applies somehow, I would get a clone or a real colt in 36 as my main carry...

[Voodoochile]

Macmac:
I understand your point of a BG having a high cap firearm compared to a C&B Revolver loaded 5 or even my M1911A1 loaded 7 but remember most shootings happen with maybe 5 total rounds fired, if you need to reload to make the situation safe that the first 5 - 10 shots didn't do then you are in a state of war & any pistol is definitly under gunned.

[DixieTexian]

This kind of question comes up every now and then, and the same thing happens.

People like to state that cap-n-ball revolvers are still firearms. Fine. It may be that way in your state, but not every state is the same. Texas specifically exempts them from the definition of firearms and then never mentions them again.

People state that they are considered firearms if carried for CCW. Again, your state may say that. Mine keeps the same definition of firearm the whole time.

Now, it is true that even if it is exempt, a jury or the local law may not see eye to eye. It probably isn't a good idea to be the historic guinea pig to find out how the court system interprets it.

People talk about the reliability of cap-n-ball revolvers and modern cartridge revolvers. Modern revolvers may have an edge, but I would be more concerned with the ability to work a single action under stress. That and the primitive sights on most CNB revolvers aren't ideal for a stressfull situation.

People say that you don't have enough shots. They seem to think that all bad guys carry autos with extra mags or assault rifles. These are mostly the same people who think the assault weapons ban doesn't work because criminals don't use them (and they don't for the most part). Most self defense situations are resolved with fewer shots than your cap-n-ball revolver are capable of. That doesn't mean that it is a bad idea to carry something that can hold a few more.

The idea that you should look at what a jury might think is a good one, and it probably varies by where you live. You have to make the decision of whether or not they will think you are playing cowboy and whether or not they will think that is a bad thing.

If you have weighed all these things and think a CNB revolver is still a good choice, then a few people have given some good advice on which ones to choose. I don't have experience with any of them, so my recomendation is a Walker...

[grimjaw]

Let's play a little game.

Let's assume it's 1863, and in the area where you live a law is passed. It requires that all firearms carried by private citizens must be carried concealed. You can carry whatever you wish, but it must not print, and it must not be brandished except in self defense.

Now.

What black powder gun would you use as a CCW? Keep in mind, getting shot with a .32 back then could be much more potentially lethal, given the state of medical technology.

jm

[scrat]

i have to do the research. i believe here in CA its still considered by the state to be a firearm. Most other states conclude it as antique or black powder arms. There is an old thread somewhere here on THR on this subject it is a very good thread as soon as i can find it i will revive it.

[mykeal]

My answer is unchanged: either of the two Colt Pocket revolvers.

[scrat]

My answer is unchanged: either of the two Colt Pocket revolvers

Agreed. now if i could just hide my WALKER lol

[StrawHat]

This one for me.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/1860Snubbieyetagain003.jpg

This one for scrat

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/IMGP1003.jpg

[armoredman]

love that 1860!

[Tomahawk674]

What kind of fps would you get of that 1860 with such a short barrel?

[scrat]

straw hat those are cool. just good luck loading them.

NOW what would be cool to do is buy a revolver then get another barrel. So you have a snub nose and then another one. For the other barrel. Drill it out to remove the rifiling. Then you can shoot regular round balls with one barrel. Then load it up EXCEPT. load it up for shot gun. say you have a .44 load up powder wads maybe 2-3 depending on thickness. then shot then another wad on top. That would be the revolver to have. from a 3-4 inch barrel that would be deadly.

[PRM]

I have posted most of this before - I own modern and black powder firearms. I have over the last three decades carried and shot C&B revolvers. They were some of the first guns I owned, and throughout the years have only grown in my appreciation. When I was in my early 20s, they were all I could afford to shoot that was not a .22. I've hunted small game with black powder pistols and carried them regularly in the woods and on the farm. Mine are Second Generation Colts. Yep, that's pre-ban elephant ivory!!! They are accurate enough to do anything I want, and are reliable enough for me to be comfortable with. Some days dependent on what I am doing, I will have a C&B revolver with me. Truth is, most of the time, CC is as much a matter of assurance for those carrying as anything else. Guess, one would need to weigh out the threat - where I'm from, there havn't been too many shoot-outs at the SONIC over hamburgers.

[Macmac]

Concealed in 1863? (2) .36's in Colt with shorter barrels, maybe 3 " and no ft site at all. 10 shots.. This should suit out to 25 yards, and so be effective in defence.

I am not the bet pistol shot that ever walked Earth and I know I am going to miss sometimes in stress.

So far in anger I have only needed one shot to settle the matter, but that shot was from a 12 ga.
..................................
PRM, I am begining to not really like you... "Yep, that's pre-ban elephant ivory!!! " I am so very jelouse!

[earlthegoat2]

A blunderbuss, loaded with what you find on the floor of a deserted warehouse.

[StrawHat]

scrat straw hat those are cool. just good luck loading them.

The 1860 is loaded off the frame as is the Walker, (only had it to the range once since I got it, The barrel and rammer will be restored)


NOW what would be cool to do is buy a revolver then get another barrel. So you have a snub nose and then another one.

I did that too, what a pain it the butt, easier to get the second revovler.

For the other barrel. Drill it out to remove the rifiling. Then you can shoot regular round balls with one barrel. Then load it up EXCEPT. load it up for shot gun. say you have a .44 load up powder wads maybe 2-3 depending on thickness. then shot then another wad on top. That would be the revolver to have. from a 3-4 inch barrel that would be deadly.

Only if you have the proper tax stamp, smoothbore revolvers are not legal.

For some reason that escapes me, a smoothbore single shot muzzleloader does not attract the same attention as the smoothbore revolver.

[StrawHat]

Tomahawk674 What kind of fps would you get of that 1860 with such a short barrel?

Not sure, never cared enough to find a chronograph and try it. I do know there is enough velocity to reach out as far as I care to shoot. And if I need a little more oomp, I can use 777.

There is a difference in felt recoil between 777 and fffg gunpowder. The 777 comes back much harder. So based on that I am guessing it to give a bit more velocity. Not real scientific but it sounds good to me.

As long as the bullet carries to the target, I really don't care about velocity.

[Voodoochile]

I never knew that even if the revolver was a C&B one you still could not have it a smootie by law.

Just think, if say your Walker shortie was smooth bored .44 caliber, & you loaded it up with BB's or even #5's it'd still only have an effective range of 7 - 10 yards but within that range it'd be quite a fight stopper.

[StrawHat]

Voodoochile I never knew that even if the revolver was a C&B one you still could not have it a smootie by law.

I am not saying my memory is perfect but I remember discussing this back in the 70's and at that time it was considered a bad idea. Doubt if anything has happened to cause a change.
Voodoochile Just think, if say your Walker shortie was smooth bored .44 caliber, & you loaded it up with BB's or even #5's it'd still only have an effective range of 7 - 10 yards but within that range it'd be quite a fight stopper.

At 7-10 the round ball is quite a stopper! Especially with a full charge.

The trip to the range was a fun one. After several cylinder down range, I reloaded and went to put the sights on target and found the front sight had parted company from the barrel! Looks like the new one will be dovetailed in place.

[PRM]

Black Powder:

Don't know the particulars as far as statute..., but I asked the question about my Pedersoli Howdah having 11 inch smoothbore barrels (20X20 gauge). Modern shotguns as you are aware have barrel and overall length restrictions. I was told the legal restrictions did not apply to black powder.

[mykeal]

I was told the legal restrictions did not apply to black powder.And the authority who made this statement was....? Were they speaking for federal, state or local regulations or all three?

[PRM]

I am not a lawyer and if I am not clear on answering your question please bear with me.

I had some questions when I saw the Pedersoli Howdah coming out because it had 11 inch barrels and was a side by side .20 guage (in the model I purchased).

My information came from several sources: Dixie Gun Works sold me the gun and was the first to tell me that the BATF guidelines for shotguns do not apply to black powder. I have to assume they know what they are talking about since they are selling the guns along with several other vendors who handle Pedersoli products. This make sense in that any smooth bore black powder pistol is essentially the same type of firearm

I did a search on the internet and found several sites that have information on sawed off shotguns. All of them I went too said that muzzloaders are exempt from the Federal Law. The following link has a synopsis of the National Firearms Act of 1934 which defines terms still in usage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act. There are also a number of sites where this act can be read in its entirety. The Act specifies that by the definition a shotgun fires a shell: http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm

(d) Shotgun. -- The term "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell.

The act also gives the verbiage for antiques, muzzle loaders and reproductions:

Antique firearm. Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.



I am sure there are probably some states that have added restrictions? But, generally speaking black powder is in a different category.

[mykeal]

Excellent work, thanks. Finally, someone who's done their homework on this subject.

[Smokin_Gun]

i believe here in CA its still considered by the state to be a firearm


No Scrat BP Revs or Rifles are not concidered a firearm in CA. I just walked out of a local "The Gun Shop" this week with a 1859 Sharps Armi Sport .54 paper cart. Cav Carbine, 2 lbs. of black powder, and 3 tins of caps...the Powder i went to buy cost me $612.xx :O)
Celebrated with a BBQ
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/11-12-08_1454.jpg


SG
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/CrittersNpeople/11-21-08_1607-1.jpg

[oneiron]

I keep mine loaded at all times just as I do all my pistols and rifles, but I would only use the C&B pistol out side only because it may start a fire in my house. By the way most CC guns are j framed revolvers. Then again I carry a 44S&W with a 3" barrel. Loaded with a 240gr bullet and in from of 8 grs unique makes a hell of a kill gun. black powder guns just weigh to much. I carried a weapon in my job, and that weigh was a pain.

[arcticap]

That's because you were only wearing one gun which made you unbalanced and caused you to lean to one side.
If you strapped on more than one BP gun, the weight would be more balanced and you'd hardly even know that you were wearing them.
Problem solved! :D

[jad0110]

PRM,

Those are some great looking Colts! I don't own any C&B BP guns, probably never will. I just love and appreciate guns of all types. I think if you can shoot really well, why not carry it? That being said, I know a couple of guys who carry 1873 SAA replicas, one of whom packs a small auto as a BUG for extra insurance. Both are scary accurate with their 1873s, I pitty the thug who would pick a fight with either of those guys.

[PRM]

I also have a 3rd Generation Colt SAA in .45 LC/.45 ACP, and a custom built Colt Bisley in .44 Special that also see their share of carry. All comes down to practice and what you're comfortable with.

[7.62X25mm]

You need to check your loophole. Just because it's not a legal firearm doesn't mean it won't be a legal 'concealed weapon'.

Also, just because it's not a "modern firearm" doesn't mean it's not a "firearm."

For purposes of state law locally, even a BB or pellet gun is considered a "concealed weapon."

"Any arm which propels a projectile by means of a spring, compressed air, or propellent gases."

"Blackpowder CCW" -- I'd opt for SAA Colt in 45 Colt caliber, a metallic cartridge loaded with black powder.

[PRM]

Even that will vary from place to place and sometimes is not clear. Back in the late 70s early 80s (in a time prior to carry permits), the Tennessee statute had verbiage stating that a person could not carry a weapon with the intent to be armed, but had an exception for the Army or Navy pistol which could be carried openly in the hand. Talk about confusing!!!

Even where the law is vague, it could cost you a lot of time, money, and trouble just to prove a point. I would have a permit if I wanted to carry it.

[Mike 56]

What about the Lemat it is a revolver and a shotgun? These would get my vote.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg95/51colt/indexbb.jpg

I am thinking about making one out of a 44cal 51 Colt.

Mike

[grimjaw]

Mike 56, what in the heck are those things?

jm

[StrawHat]

grimjaw Mike 56, what in the heck are those things?

Mike will correct me if I am wrong but they appear to be brass framed 1860s with a modification done to the grip strap to make them more rounded.

Somewhere I found a web site that had a couple of originals pictured that were so modified in the 19th century.

(Before anyone points it out, the originals were iron framed as there were no brass framed 1860s)

[Jim K]

Better read the federal law again, folks. It doesn't say an antique firearm or replica is not a firearm. It defines firearm to include antiques and non-cartridge guns, then defines antique firearms and makes SOME exemptions for them. Nowhere does it says an antique gun is not a firearm.

Jim

[CabofDoom]

Better read the federal law again, folks. It doesn't say an antique firearm or replica is not a firearm. It defines firearm to include antiques and non-cartridge guns, then defines antique firearms and makes SOME exemptions for them. Nowhere does it says an antique gun is not a firearm

Actually, I beg to differ with your statement. the following was copied from the DOJ website. the link will take you to the document in its entirety

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/ut/psn/documents/guncard.pdf

DEFINITION OF “FIREARM”:
Any weapon (including a starter gun) which will expel a projectile by means of an explosive or is designed or may be readily converted to do so. This includes the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any firearm muffler or silencer or any destructive device. A “destructive device” includes any explosive, incendiary or poison gas --- (i)bomb; (ii) grenade or (iii) similar device, or any combination of parts designed or intended to be
converted into a destructive device, or from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. Does not include black powder or antique type firearms. 18 USC §921(3).3

Not trying ti pee in anyones cheerios, but the belief that "prohibited persons"
can not own even blackpowder weapons under federal law is also eronious. A member of my family was subject to an ATF raid and when the dust settled, the ATF purposly left behind 3 muzzleloading rifles and 2 C&B revolvers with the lead agent's admonishon to his minions that they had no right to take those

COD

[Vermonter]

When it comes to federal law, it's not the blackpowder that's the dividing line, it's the type of ignition. A gun that shoots blackpowder cartridges would still be considered a firearm.

[pohill]

I always understood that an antique was, basically, a gun that fired unconventional ammo. You can buy an 1858 Remington NMA (for example) and shoot black powder with cap and balls and it's not a firearm, but once you convert that gun to cartridge, it's a firearm. In regards to conventional ammo - the store in Maine where I buy my guns had an antique handgun that fired antique cartridge ammo (I can't remember what it was but it was certainly un-conventional, un-modern ammo) but they would not sell me that gun because they had a good supply of that unconventional ammo in the store. The supply made it conventional.
Also, I shipped a Colt repro through UPS recently and the store said they had to get an OK from the home office before they could ship it. The home office called back and said as long as it's pre-1879 (not 1899) it was OK. They've moved the date of the gun back to exclude as many cartridge firing guns as possible.
In MA, you can buy (or receive through the mail) an antique gun but you need a Firearms ID card to buy the powder (yeah, I know, MA is tough but you wanna see where the rest of the country is heading? Check MA laws. But the good news is that in MA you can legally marry your favorite sheep, or anyone else for that matter).
And keep in mind, even if you do have an antique gun in every sense of the definition, once you conceal it, you might be concealing a dangerous weapon (in your state).

[cold_surfer]

Might be OK in WY but in FL a loaded black powder arm is considered a firearm the same as a modern. I'd believe it if WY hadn't fought the legal battle out -- but be careful out of state since they might site the FL definition as common practice.

IE. a convicted felon is in violation of the law with a loaded black powder gun hunting in Florida -- it was decided in Daytona a few years ago. What blows me away is the selective enforcement and widely varying interpretation of gun laws in the US. It sucks, unless you are in a place like WY... FL is better than the northern yankee states like MA, NY, NJ, etc.. but those same states are coming down here trying to get us to change our laws because of problems up there.

Over-riding problem is one of SLAM-FIRE. I would never CCW a weapon prone to slam firing when dropped.

The good news is that you are still legally allowed to build your own BP handgun in most places and maybe you could invent a better way.. Good luck. I would only run it with 777 or the more stable powders.

[trickshot]

Over-riding problem is one of SLAM-FIRE. I would never CCW a weapon prone to slam firing when dropped.

The good news is that you are still legally allowed to build your own BP handgun in most places and maybe you could invent a better way.. Good luck. I would only run it with 777 or the more stable powders.


cold_surfer, I wish to comment on a couple things you wrote.

slam-fire? Just like with the Colt SAA cartridge revolver, it is a normal practice to carry it with the hammer on an empty chamber, and then a cap & ball revolver can't go off if dropped.

What do you mean by "stable"? Black powder is more reliable than 777 or any other black powder substitute, especially if the loaded gun is stored for a long period of time.

[arcticap]

What do you mean by "stable"? Black powder is more reliable than 777 or any other black powder substitute, especially if the loaded gun is stored for a long period of time.


I recently fired off a revolver that was bought from a friend and previously loaded with 28 grains of BP and topped off with Cream of Wheat and a thin layer of Bore Butter. The Bore Butter had turned brownish due to age.
The rounds were so anemic that I couldn't believe that it was loaded with 28 grains of powder. I asked the seller afterward how long ago he loaded it and to confirm the volume of powder which he did, saying that it was about 2 years old.
Maybe the Bore Butter or the Cream of Wheat transferred some moisture to the powder or something. Two chambers needed to be recapped with RWS 1075 caps before they would fire but the nipples appeared to be clear. But there was some light roughness in the chambers from oxidation that I noticed afterward when cleaning it.
Granted that this is all based on circumstantial hearsay, but the relevant point is that no powder is immune to spoilage. Even if it was loaded 5 years ago, who can say that if it was loaded with Pyrodex P whether or not the powder would have also spoiled?
The lesson is that an unspoiled load of substitute powder is better than a spoiled load of BP. Black Powder is easier to ignite, but I don't know about how to measure the stability of powders once they are stored loaded over a wide variety of environmental conditions and in contact with various lubricants and fillers.

[trickshot]

Black powder does not spoil. Except in unusual circumstances. There are many documented cases of loaded muzzleloader guns sitting for decades and still shooting as good as a freshly loaded gun.

[Mat, not doormat]

To be properly armed, you'd want to be carrying 3 Walker Colts. I'd recommend two in a double shoulder rig, and one crossdraw. That would put you at just about even with a guy carrying a G17, in terms of round count, procectile weight and velocity.

Of course the caveat is he can reload with a mag change.




Ask a silly question, get a silly answer.

~~~Mat

[PRM]

That would put you at just about even with a guy carrying a G17, in terms of round count, procectile weight and velocity.

We are all aware on this forum of what is involved in reloading a C&B - but did someone just compare a 9mm cartridge (Glock 17) to a Walker .44???:uhoh: