What the heck is this? Mauser?? (pics)


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Macmac
November 18, 2008, 07:55 PM
This is a hand me down, and I can document that in a last will bla bla bla.

It shoots 6.5x54 MS. For a long time I thought maybe it was an odd ball Mannlicher Schoenauer , but I know at this point it can't be, so what is it?

I am leaning to mongrel, but I don't care because 1 I like it. 2 My father gave it too me long before he passed away, but he slipped and added to his will anyway. I guess that's what he did.
I have the idea this was built from parts in the 50's.

I need to get better lighting... sorry
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/ManScho_length.jpg

The wood is nice
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/ManScho_butt_burlL.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/ManScho_pistolgrip.jpg

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Macmac
November 18, 2008, 07:56 PM
It has very nice and plain furniture
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/ManScho_buttplate.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/ManScho_front.jpg

It was inlet for the peep site
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/ManScho_Saturn.jpg

eldon519
November 18, 2008, 07:59 PM
Well I can't help you, but it's a good-looking rifle none the less. I like the wood on it.

Macmac
November 18, 2008, 07:59 PM
The planet saturn preceeds the makers name, and other markings repeat all over the gun
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/ManScho_mfcr_stamp.jpg


http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/ManScho_proofs.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/magwell_frame_marks.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/magwell_release_mark.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/ManScho_Saturn.jpg

Paladin_Hammer
November 18, 2008, 08:00 PM
It's definitely this thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannlicher-Sch%C3%B6nauer

Macmac
November 18, 2008, 08:02 PM
Ammo
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/65x54a.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/MS_cart-1.jpg

The gun is upside down so you can read these letters up right. Once I thought the partial word was pate, but am not so sure the 'e' is a 'e'.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Firearms/Manshow/ManScho_bore.jpg

Macmac
November 18, 2008, 08:12 PM
`Paladin_Hammer, Once I thought so too, but i don't think so any more. Wrong bolt, mauser like action, not double set triggers. "Manufactura Lowes Berlin", not Steyr-Mannlicher unless........???

Mauserguy
November 18, 2008, 08:53 PM
Wow, the workmanship on that Manlicher is incredible.
Mauserguy

NCsmitty
November 18, 2008, 08:59 PM
It looks to be a Mauser type for sure but not a military action with no thumb cut out. Does it cock on opening or on closing the bolt? Bolt shroud looks different too. "Manufactura" from one of the Spanish speaking countries. Chilean? Hope somebody knows.

NCsmitty

zombienerd
November 18, 2008, 09:18 PM
Well, after typing (in quotes) "manufactura loewe berlin" into google, I came up with many many results all for Mausers for different countries. Then, I added 6.5mm, 6.5x54, etc, after that, and found nothing denoting country of use.

Most of the ones I found (that had the same stamp as yours) were multiple different calibers (not 6.5mm), but had been rechambered for 7.62/.308 in the 50's and 60's...

Can't find much more than that... All the other Mausers from that factory (Ludwig Loewe, Berlin) have the model stamped just above the "Manufactura Loewe Berlin" stamp. Seems like that factory went out of business after WWII :) Either way that's one very nice carbine, you are very lucky.


Don't know if that was much help...

woodfiend
November 18, 2008, 09:23 PM
WOW! That's a beautiful weapon. I would so very much like to have one. How much do they run for?

Archie
November 18, 2008, 09:25 PM
Probably a 6.5 M-S built for the civilian sporting market. It doesn't have double set triggers, but that was probably an option.

Check out: http://www.chuckhawks.com/m-s_carbine.htm


Great rifle, excellent caliber. Go kill a deer in your father's memory.

shimniok
November 18, 2008, 09:33 PM
The stock made me think Mannlicher-Schönauer -- But I did a Google search on "manufactura" and came up with "manufactura loewe berlin" in reference to Spanish, Argentine and Chilean mausers... hmmm... I looked up saturn and star proof mark in Google and came up with a reference to Spanish M1893 but it talks about the hex symbol made of overlapping triangles...

The rear bolt shroud & safety look very similar to my M96 and match these pics of M1893 Spanish Mauser (so presumably would look similiar to any Mauser of similar vintage). http://antiquearmsinc.com/1893-spanish-mauser.htm

Molasses
November 18, 2008, 09:46 PM
My guess is that it's the end result of a whole lot of time and effort by someone to turn out a nifty custom rifle in a Mannlicher-style stock, built around a Mauser action made by Lowe. I wonder if the barrel is a take-off from something else, possibly with a bit removed from the breach end and rethreaded to fit this action and then rechambered...in which case maybe the PAT(?) markings could even be the beginnings of some patent info pertaining to whatever the barrel was originally on.

If it were a Mannlicher Schoenauer of the vintage this rifle appears to be, it should have a rotary magazine (think along the lines of the innards of a 10/22 mag) and bolt like:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q201/Molasses_photos/Steyr%20M-S/MVC-013F.jpg

Oh, one more thing about earlier Mannlicher Schoenauers; split rear receiver bridge, like Moisin Nagants have (and a number of others, but that'd be probably the most familiar example these days), on account of that halfway down the bolt body bolt handle. By the time Steyr/M-S went to a rear-mounted bolt handle and a solid rear bridge (like the rifle in question has), the markings wouldn't be in the least bit ambiguous.

Logan5
November 18, 2008, 10:05 PM
It's a sporterized Mauser, one of the 1892-6 varieties manufactured by Ludwig Lowe in Berlin for some South American contract. From the serial number and proof marks, I'd guess Argentina. It looks very nicely done. How does it shoot?

Macmac
November 18, 2008, 10:46 PM
It cocks on closing the bolt... Of course there are no stropper clip thumbs, and the mag feed plate has no bolt stop, so with no caseing the bolt with still push closed.

I have been in possestion of this a good number of years, as I got it before my Dad passed and that was in 97'.

This gun shoots a long round nose bullet, and I am not sure what it is called best. The loading shown are not the most accurate and are longer than most modern bullets.

Not far away is a elderly man who reloads, and he made these. The peep site has two choices for size, and I don't know the term for these parts either.

It is a nice little brush buster and I just got to thinking someone here might set me straight. That seems like a foolish thing to say sice you are on the right track.

Even if it is a mongrel I still cherish it.

Someone asked what do these cost? I have no idea. Once I had it in a gun shop trying to get it IDed.. The shop owner asked if I would take $1,200.00 for it. That time maybe was in early 90's as my father was still alive then.

I have no idea why he had this in the will, but I don't know when he made out his will. It caused a little wirlwind with his wife, my step mom looking all over for it, and I had it all along. In a proper time she called to say it was gone, and i tiold her I had hadit for some years already.

I will check out these links especially the ones where markings are shown.

Is this too many pictures? Should I remove some? Most of the time here, I live in the Black Powder area, and all those guys are nuts! Over on this side of the line I am not to sure how to behave ....

cracked butt
November 19, 2008, 08:40 AM
Its easier a mauser model 93 or 95. If the boltface is flat on the bottom, its a 93, if its round, its a 95.

Jim Watson
November 19, 2008, 09:31 AM
It is indeed a "mongrel", but one of those crossbreeds that just looks right. I see:

As said, a small ring Mauser action as made by Lowe for all manner of Latin American contracts.

Gunsmithing work invested to fit a barrel for 6.5 MS. I don't know if a Mauser boltface, extractor, and magazine will handle 6.5 MS without alteration. It is not a LOT different, but it IS different in casehead diameter. It would have been much simpler to have left it a 7mm, and just as effective on the game. Maybe it is as Molasses says, a barrel off another gun that just happened to be available to replace a worn or rusty original. In the 1950s, gunsmith time was less expensive than replacement parts.

Lyman receiver sight, requiring drilling and tapping mounting holes. Long front sight ramp of no brand I immediately recognize.

Nicely proportioned Mannlicher stock without an ugly humped up comb for scope; checkered and with Neidner style steel buttplate and grip cap.


I do not know what all the little symbols represent, they are not proof marks that I recognize. Maybe the gunsmith's logo(s). But if I were doing that much work to a rifle, I would put my NAME on it. One of those likely untraceable medium custom rifles common in the day when military surplus and shop time were less expensive than a new Mannlicher Schoenauer.

Macmac
November 19, 2008, 10:50 AM
Indeed the bolt face has a flat on the bottom,so a 93 action huh?.
There are no gas escape holes like a K-98, if that helps.
I believe just one locking lug, but maybe 2 since the extractor is lined up with the 2nd smaller one when the bolt is withdrawn.

Where the case head seats on the bolt face isn't polished, but it sure isn't rough.To a finger nail scraped over the surface it feels nearly glass like.

Some of the stains are WD-40 which dried in 2 years of this gun being wrapped in a big plastic bag and taped to be sealed closed. The other day when I brought it back into the world I gave it a another blast of WD-40 and wiped it down quickly, but not in a detailed manor. I can scrape off some of that dried on WD-40.


Some other flaws are linseed oil from before those last 2 years sealing the stock with the barrel and action out. The linseed oil was already thickened in the jug then. I placed the action/barrel in the stock with the oil still wet, so some drops worked their way to be visable like the mung showing near the PAT letters.

On paper and at a few deer this gun goes bang with 6,5x54MS every time. There is no damage i can see to any cases other than sometimes the few I have left loaded in 1964 split at the neck, but I have no way to know how many times these cases (old Dominion) might have been re-loaded before.

Most certainly the new Norma brass comes out in re-loadable shape. I don't plan to use the last of the Dominion, since so many fail, and I like the idea Dad may have touched some of them, as much as I know he held the gun.

Things are pretty tight workwise for me right now, but if a scope mount is a known and someone has one they might part with I might like to just know it.

I would want that to fit the action as it is drilled now, with no more holes.

After than maybe a scope of the same vintage or one that looks to be the same vintage, in lower power for the thick woods in New Hampshire, where if a snowshoe rabbit runs in the Balsums too fast it self cooks.

It won't be for sale untill atleast after I am gone. So dollars don't mean a thing to me on this gun. My son is 28 this Dec, and he owns better guns than I do, and so I don't know what he will do with it, when it's his.

And then his 'SO' is El Prego, and 'It's a Boy' so thar's no tellin'... Of course there is awlays the chance some anti laws will require it goes to the grinder, but I don't think so, not so long as i suck air on this side of the grass.

On Edit: So does this mean one day in about 2155 it will be said this gun was used in the Civil War?

Jim Watson
November 19, 2008, 05:03 PM
I don't think you will get a satisfactory scope installation on it without a good deal of work. There might be some no-gunsmithing gimmick mount that would stick a scope so high in the air you would have to have a neck like a giraffe to see through it. Otherwise, drill, tap, lower the bolt handle and alter the safety. Nothing wrong with a good peep sight, no extra cost, and no change from Dad's likes.

AnthonyC.
November 19, 2008, 05:08 PM
I'd say its only worth about $75 but I will give you $300 just to take it off your hands:D

bonza
November 19, 2008, 05:44 PM
Looking at the 4th picture, it appears to have been fitted with a side-mounted scope at some point. I'd say it was in a previous incarnation, as some of the holes are obstructed by the stock.

Macmac
November 19, 2008, 06:54 PM
Jim/ Bonza, The camera angle is wrong, and the scope mount area is inlett into this stock, like the peep site is.. I an interested in a like mount that would fit these holes only. I can run a screw driver fairly well, since 95% of my tools since 1970 have been Snap On, although i wouldn't dare use Snap On screw drivers on any gun.

I don't have a clue as to what mounts may fit these holes. Could be one of a kind and it is really gone, or it could be like that no name ft sight see?

Something fitting and not so collectable. And if it never happens I can live with that. The idea is to keep it like it was, and with my eyesite failing as it is be able to see to make a clean kill, and that would be cross hairs a no more than 4 x.

Yes pic 4.. Jim saw that pic in another post, and I thought this post would be better than stealing another mans post. I didnt want to flood that post with all these pics.

Macmac
November 19, 2008, 06:57 PM
AnthonyC. really 300? You are aware that there is not one mim part right? Every part is forged and milled. As I understand it these days a gun with out 50% mim parts is plain ol junk... ;D

Jim Watson
November 19, 2008, 07:57 PM
Oops, I saw those holes in the other thread and passed over them here.

Two problems remain... getting a side mount to match that hole pattern, and still dealing with the clearance problem. It will take a tall mount to clear the bolt handle and safety without altering them. Gonna look funny and be hard to line up on with the iron sight stock.

dirtyjim
November 19, 2008, 08:49 PM
its a small ring guild gun built on a 93 receiver. i've seen a few mausers built on the 6.5ms round, both large ring & small ring. the lyman rear sight would have been added later along with the side mount. the barrel shank is more british or american looking than german & the front sling swivel isn't mounted in the typical way its done on a mannlicher style stock, but it does have a fore end key. all in all its a nice sporting rifle & would auction around $350-450 because of the odd caliber. if it had been fited with a dst & still had the scope mount with a nice vintage scope it would go for slightly more.

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