Question for the AR varminters/target shooters?


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hossdaniels
November 18, 2008, 09:13 PM
I"m looking at bolt rifle 223's(cz527 varmint kevlar right now), but if these semi's can seriously shoot with the bolt rifles, I may be swayed for a only a few hundred bucks more. How well can these things shoot? Really?

Rockriver claims 3/4 moa, Any one that can back that up?

How do your heavy barreled ar's really shoot? Pics please(targets, not rifles!)

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HOLY DIVER
November 18, 2008, 09:17 PM
i guess you might ask yourself ...how good can i i shoot?yes an AR can do that
but can you make an AR do that?

gvnwst
November 18, 2008, 09:20 PM
Pretty much waht 000buck said. If you can shoot that good, a good AR can shoot better. Les Baer makes probably the best (most accurrate) AR's on the market. .1 MOA has been achived, or so i have read. That is benchrest accuarcy.

My AR, POF SPR, can shoot 1/2 MOA, in better hands. It is WAY more acccurate than i am...

browningguy
November 18, 2008, 10:17 PM
It's reasonably simple to get an AR shooting Sub-moa, with decent ammo. You can't expect the $3.99 Brown Bear/Wolf/etc. to do it though. My DPMS 16" bull barrel does .5-.6" with a couple of different Black Hills loads.

.38 Special
November 18, 2008, 10:59 PM
I had an Eagle Arms "Eagle Eye" that was capable of genuine .25" five shot groups with factory Black Hills ammo, on demand. It was actually the most accurate factory rifle I have ever owned, and this is coming from a fellow who is really not a fan of "assault rifles" in general.

longdayjake
November 18, 2008, 11:14 PM
I have a rock river 16" midlength chrome lined 3/4" inch barrel. It is pretty much stock except for the chrome lining. I have a leupold vx-II 3-9 on it. I have a batch of handloads that I have been shooting with some of the prvi 62grain ss109 bullets that are clover-leafing. I usually shoot 5 round groups from 100 yards and all the holes touch. The other day I wanted to see what it could do so I loaded a 20 round mag and shot all 20 at 100 yards from a bench. Except for 2 flyers all of the bullets were within 1" They made almost a perfect verticle line in the target. So, though I didn't just make 1 hole atleast I could tell that they werent shooting to the left or right. The up and down grouping may very well have just been the shooter.

So, in short I believe that the rifle is definately capable of those groups but you need the right loads and the right person behind the trigger to get that from it. A bull barrel with a match trigger may even improve more.

1911 guy
November 18, 2008, 11:41 PM
The AR is unique in the fact that a rifle can be assembled with good parts, require no hand fitting, and be just as accurate as a hand-built bolt rifle. The lockup on an AR bolt is ridiculously repeatable due to the lug surface area and aftermarket triggers make them easy to use (lack of 2-stage creep).

FlyinBryan
November 19, 2008, 01:15 AM
87934

87935

87936

87937

87938

edit: oops, just noticed you said no rifle pics, my bad.

cat9x
November 19, 2008, 09:55 AM
FlyinBryan, very nice

FlyinBryan
November 19, 2008, 10:28 AM
thx cat.

the top pic was from when the rifle had the standard plastic handgaurds. about 3/4 moa.

the rest were after i added the float tube seen in the pic.

hossdaniels
November 19, 2008, 11:10 AM
Dang bryan, that's about as good as I can do with my savage 17hmr, or even better than my other bolt rifles(sporters). From a 16" bbl that's amazing!

I've shot a rifle that is capable of 1/4moa(seen the owner shoot that more than once), and the best I could do was 1/2moa, but I could do it pretty regularly. So I'm not perfect, but I can do pretty well if the rifle can do it.

I'm starting to think maybe no bolt rifle needed after all.

Fat_46
November 19, 2008, 11:32 AM
I actually own both - a CZ 527 and several ARs, including a homebrew SPR-ish rifle.

The AR platform is as accurate as the CZ - when you do your part. Personally, I find that the bolt helps me slow down and think about what I am doing, which results in better groups. For me, its way too easy to pop off 30 rounds in under a minute.

The other "drawback" I have found with the AR occurs when prairie dog shooting. I tend to heat the barrel up much faster on a semiauto than I do on a heavy barrel bolt gun.

FlyinBryan
November 19, 2008, 07:42 PM
THX hoss.

ya, they can be scary accurate.

i noticed you mentioned rock river.

mine is a bushmaster, but in my opinion just about any hbar or ar target rifle can pull this off.

as far as the length, my 16 is a better shooter than my 20" colt was, so dont be afraid to get a shorty.

i couldnt be more satisfied with mine. it EASILY shoots sub-moa, and weighs less than 7lbs.

its also very reliable, about 6000 rounds and never a single fte, ftf, ,,,,,,,,not even a hiccup.

all targets were 100yds from a bench with a bipod and sandbags. VERY SLOW FIRED.

i would fire a round every few minutes, the barrel just gets barely warm.

also keep in mind those are all handloads, carefully weighed and measured, im sure factory would not shoot like that (but ive been wrong before) i woyuld expect around 1moa with factory stuff.

hope this helps your decision (or carve it into stone, lol)

helz_mcfugly
November 19, 2008, 11:08 PM
FlyinBryan poked those holes with a stick. He shoots way better then what he posted, most of his 5 shot groups are one hole. hes just trying to be humble. He also smokes way to much.

FlyinBryan
November 20, 2008, 01:12 AM
ya, a boom stick

Birdhunter1
November 20, 2008, 02:17 AM
Can manage .5-.7 with my Olympic Arms AR with a 16" heavy bull barrel and a Bushnell Legend 5-15X40 MD AO using 40 gr. Nosler ballistic tips with 27.5 gr. H335. Liked to crapped a load right there when I did it, so I tried again an hour later and had the same results.
200 yards well inside 1 1/2".

The load I found using Nosler's pistol data that used a 14" barrel instead of rifle data (even data specifically for the AR) that was using 20"-24" barrels.

Right now I don't feel like going to my garage to get teh target, snap a photo and post it. A guy I work with has a DPMS with the 24" barrel that if it shoots 1/2" at 100 yards he is wondering what went wrong, he has the most accurate .223 rifle of any I've seen.

FlyinBryan
November 20, 2008, 02:23 AM
FlyinBryan poked those holes with a stick. He shoots way better then what he posted, most of his 5 shot groups are one hole. hes just trying to be humble. He also smokes way to much.

oh ya, and i might have to work sunday (figures)


say hoss, if you do opt for the ar instead of a bolt let us know what you get.

FlyinBryan
November 20, 2008, 02:36 AM
Can manage .5-.7 with my Olympic Arms AR with a 16" heavy bull barrel and a Bushnell Legend 5-15X40 MD AO using 40 gr. Nosler ballistic tips with 27.5 gr. H335.

hey bird, ive also had fair success with really light ballistic tips.

Liked to crapped a load right there when I did it,

ya, a good barreled ar can have that effect on a feller.

hossdaniels
November 20, 2008, 11:56 AM
I'm looking at this onehttp://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=228 and this one http://www.bushmaster.com/competition_rifles.asp?cat=16R, 20" bbls, anyone know the velocity loss offhand for 24" vs 20" vs 16"?

gvnwst
November 20, 2008, 12:12 PM
What bullet weight? It makes a difference.

jerkface11
November 20, 2008, 12:28 PM
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a261/jerkface11/BallisticsAB.gif

This should answer your barrel length questions.

harmonic
November 20, 2008, 12:31 PM
How well can these things shoot?

You've got to pay attention to a few details, first.

1) Trigger. It's vital to have a quality trigger for long range work. Nothing kills performance faster than a creepy, hard trigger pull.

2) Scope. You can pay 2 grand for a rifle, but if you put a $100 scope on it, you've pretty much got a $100 rifle. You'll need a quality high powered scope to maximize your rifle.

3) Ammo. As has been pointed out, you can't maximize accuracy with milsurp/third world ammo.

Accuracy costs money. How accurate do you want to shoot?

hossdaniels
November 20, 2008, 02:00 PM
I planned on a zeiss conquest or a burris signature select ($4-500 range), 12X ought to more than enough for the range of a 223.

I want exceptional accuracy with its favorite ammo(3/4moa), and thats with a little cushion built in for my shooting(maybe 1/8"), and decent(1.25-1.5 moa with cheap ammo). Is that realistic? The stock 2 stage trigger on the rock river had me leaning that way, is it good enough?

And I think 4" is probably worth 100fps, if just for the weight savings, thanks jerkface.

jerkface11
November 22, 2008, 12:53 AM
You're welcome. The shorter barrel will probably be more accurate too.

ifit
November 22, 2008, 07:40 AM
heres some range reslults from my bushmaster ar15, upper is a wilson 24" stainless bull barrel, jp full floater handguard. shoots good w/60 grain hp. only at 50yards, kinda limited where im from, but will try 100yards soon.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/bmtarget022.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/bmtarget023.jpg

TIMC
November 22, 2008, 11:12 AM
My Stag Arms model 6 Varminter shoots half inch groups at 100 yards as advertised. The 24" bull barrel has a 1:8 twist and I am shooting 77 grain bullets in my own handloads.

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